Speaker 1: When I think about knowledge work and how to do
Speaker 1: it well, I'm sure I'm not alone in picturing the
Speaker 1: novelist bent over a desk in the dead of night,
Speaker 1: burning the midnight oil, sucking on the end of a
Speaker 1: pen as she tries to break that crucial last act
Speaker 1: of her story. And I know I'm not alone in
Speaker 1: my fascination with the schedules of great writers from history.
Speaker 1: I mean, whole books are dedicated to examining the daily
Speaker 1: routines of everyone from Ernest Hemingway to Virginia Wolf. We're
Speaker 1: obsessed with the image of the writer and insatiably curious
Speaker 1: about how they brought are culture's greatest works into being,
Speaker 1: and this definitely applies to the modern writer. Leanne Moriarty
Speaker 1: is the author behind Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers,
Speaker 1: and The Husband's Secret, among many others. She's the first
Speaker 1: Australian author ever today debut a novel at number one
Speaker 1: on the New York Times Bestsellers list, and the Emmy
Speaker 1: winning HBO adaptation of Big Little Eyes, co produced by
Speaker 1: and starring Nicole Kidman and Rhys Rieverspoon, propelled her to
Speaker 1: international stardom. And also, let's not forget the more recent
Speaker 1: Amazon adaptation of Nine Perfect Strangers. But does that romantic
Speaker 1: image of the solitary artist ring true in the modern
Speaker 1: day for Leanne? And how does she stay focused in
Speaker 1: our age of distraction? Is she using modern tools or
Speaker 1: does she look to the past for scheduling inspiration? And
Speaker 1: how does Leanne tame her inner critic in her head?
Speaker 1: My name is doctor Romantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist
Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this
Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help
Speaker 1: you do your best work. Leanne has achieved such an
Speaker 1: incredible amount as an author, I mean maybe more than
Speaker 1: any other modern Australian author. So with their latest book,
Speaker 1: Apple's Never Fall, hitting bookshelves last month, how does she
Speaker 1: think about what's next?
Speaker 2: Well, it does take me a while to get back
Speaker 2: into writing mode again, So I definitely I can't be
Speaker 2: the sort of person who does an interview and then
Speaker 2: goes and sits down and writes, because I feel like
Speaker 2: they're two different parts of me that are working.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: One is I'm I am a writer and right now
Speaker 2: I feel I'm performing as a writer. I'm too self conscious.
Speaker 2: If I sat down and wrote now, because I will
Speaker 2: have talked about, oh, I don't plan my books, and
Speaker 2: then I'll sit down and think, oh, look at me
Speaker 2: not planning my books. I can't stand it. I need
Speaker 2: to have a little break in between this side of things.
Speaker 2: So once I've finished, you know, the publicity tour for
Speaker 2: a new book, I have a few weeks off and
Speaker 2: then I do none of these sort of events or
Speaker 2: podcasts or anything, which I know is not the case
Speaker 2: for all authors. Some authors seem to be able to
Speaker 2: simultaneously handle handle both sides. But I need to stop
Speaker 2: because when I write, I need to lose my sense
Speaker 2: of self. And so I guess what I'll do is,
Speaker 2: once I've finished, we'll eventually by myself a special, very
Speaker 2: fancy new notebook, which I'll take a lot of time
Speaker 2: choosing one of those expensive ones, you know, the gorgeous
Speaker 2: ones with the really lovely covers, and you know, to
Speaker 2: be honest, I don't actually do all that much with
Speaker 2: the notepad. It seems to be part of the pros.
Speaker 2: I like the thought of myself going to cafes and
Speaker 2: writing notes in it, or going to special locations, but
Speaker 2: really only write a few pages, and then that seems
Speaker 2: to be enough to get me going, and then I
Speaker 2: just sit at my computer. I can't do I can't
Speaker 2: do the jk rowling thing and write it all, write
Speaker 2: it at cafes. I have two sisters who are authors,
Speaker 2: and both of them can do that, and I try
Speaker 2: because I love the idea of it, but I seem
Speaker 2: to need to have my keyboard and my monitor in
Speaker 2: front of me.
Speaker 1: Let's dig into your writing process a bit more and
Speaker 1: tell me what does a typical day look like when
Speaker 1: you are mid book.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't have I don't have too many typical
Speaker 2: days in the way that I've heard some authors describe them,
Speaker 2: where they say I get up at this time and
Speaker 2: I drink this particular drink, and I walk here and
Speaker 2: then I sit down and do two hours before ten am.
Speaker 2: I don't have a strip schedule like that at all. Yes, So,
Speaker 2: which is why when I told my husband I was
Speaker 2: speaking on this podcast, he found it hilarious that I
Speaker 2: would have anything to say about being adding productivity. And
Speaker 2: I do have two young children, so I work within
Speaker 2: the school day, but every day feels a little bit
Speaker 2: different depending on on what's going on with them or
Speaker 2: even how I feel that day, so I did. When
Speaker 2: the children were babies, I used to have a babysitter
Speaker 2: who would come for three hours at a time, and
Speaker 2: I did find that before having the babysitter, compared for
Speaker 2: before children, I became more productive because I would only
Speaker 2: have her for the three hours. I would have to
Speaker 2: close the office doore, and I couldn't come out for
Speaker 2: another cup of tea because that would be embarrassing because
Speaker 2: she'd know that I had just had one. And so
Speaker 2: I do think in my mind I've still kept up
Speaker 2: since then, and I think I wrote really well in
Speaker 2: that time because time was so precious and because I
Speaker 2: was paying somebody to so I knew I had to work.
Speaker 2: I couldn't just I don't know, serve the internet. But
Speaker 2: so ever since then, I've started to think of my
Speaker 2: writing as being in a three hour shift, so to
Speaker 2: think I'll do it. I'll do a shift now, so
Speaker 2: you know it might be ten to one.
Speaker 3: I do do. I use the.
Speaker 2: Freedom, the program Freedom, which I'm sure you know about
Speaker 2: that I've seen it in lots of authors acknowledgments that
Speaker 2: it restricts your access to the Internet, and.
Speaker 1: Can I actually ask how you use Freedom? So for
Speaker 1: those that are not familiar with it. I think the
Speaker 1: website is Freedom dot two and there's a free version,
Speaker 1: and you can block websites and you can block software
Speaker 1: at certain times of day. So can you tell me
Speaker 1: how you specifically use freedom?
Speaker 2: Well, well, one embarrassing problems. I thought that freedom restricted everything.
Speaker 2: I thought it didn't let me get email either. And
Speaker 2: I believed this for a long time. So because I
Speaker 2: believed it, I therefore didn't check my email. So I
Speaker 2: would So the way I used it was just And
Speaker 2: what was wonderful about it was that it makes me
Speaker 2: feel like it's programming me to write. So you could
Speaker 2: put in a certain amount of time that you Internet
Speaker 2: would be restricted so you could program and I'd say
Speaker 2: normally my three hour or even I might think, especially
Speaker 2: if I'm at the beginning of a book where it's
Speaker 2: hard to get into the flow, so I think, okay,
Speaker 2: just write for an hour. But for whatever amount of time,
Speaker 2: I think, wonderful, I'm going I know, I'm going to
Speaker 2: write for that amount of time. But yes, then I
Speaker 2: discovered I think emails still.
Speaker 3: Coming through.
Speaker 2: One so new that I was still getting emailed, then
Speaker 2: there was nothing to stop me from checking email. It's
Speaker 2: very embarrassing. I actually wrote to the people who make
Speaker 2: it and said please, it used to stop me from
Speaker 2: getting and they said, no, we can't do that. Sorry. Yes,
Speaker 2: and it's worse these days since the pandemic. You know,
Speaker 2: the habit of doom scrolling through your phone, so I
Speaker 2: need the phone not to be near me too.
Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you have a beautiful ornate egg
Speaker 1: timer to help with productivity. Can you tell me about that.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's just a gift that a friend gave me,
Speaker 2: and I think it goes for thirty minutes, So I
Speaker 2: just use that, especially when I'm.
Speaker 3: At the beginning of a book. So it's fine.
Speaker 2: Once a book has momentum, which seems to happen about
Speaker 2: maybe a third of the way through, I don't need
Speaker 2: it as much because I can I know my characters,
Speaker 2: and I can see where the story's going. But in
Speaker 2: the beginning of a new novel, I'm always flailing about.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of a lot of self loathing and
Speaker 2: just I can't do this. And sometimes even when you
Speaker 2: sit down to write a book in the beginning, I
Speaker 2: feel almost silly. You know, what are you doing here?
Speaker 2: Making up a story that feels foolish. So the point
Speaker 2: of the egg timer is just to say I will
Speaker 2: write and for the next until that last grain of
Speaker 2: set and falls through, and I won't think about it.
Speaker 3: I will have no.
Speaker 2: You know, what's what's the word critical? I can't think
Speaker 2: of the word. But I done self talk, just the
Speaker 2: self talk, just to I can't think I'm trying to say,
Speaker 2: but that it's just just right and it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: if it's bad, if it's good, it doesn't matter. You
Speaker 2: just must write for the next and it's thirty minutes,
Speaker 2: and that often does finally gets you get you going.
Speaker 2: So often the first few lines are this is stupid,
Speaker 2: this is you know, just what ever anything? And then
Speaker 2: finally it's always that losing your sense of self where
Speaker 2: that you just find and you know, athletes talk about it,
Speaker 2: getting in the zone and meditators talk about it, and
Speaker 2: it's and that I think it's just called flow when
Speaker 2: you finally achieve that, which is the most glorious.
Speaker 3: Feeling of aught, which is basically why I write.
Speaker 2: When you look up from the computer and you sort
Speaker 2: of blink because you've been lost in that world.
Speaker 1: Have you found any tricks to get yourself in to
Speaker 1: flow more quickly or more predictably.
Speaker 2: No only to just to no I want them, no
Speaker 2: only just to write the thing I do. I'm not
Speaker 2: a planner, so I don't know what's going to happen
Speaker 2: with my books. So that means it's a really fun
Speaker 2: way to write, because I sit down at my desk
Speaker 2: each day and think, I wonder what's going to happen today.
Speaker 2: But it's also a scary, scary way to write, because
Speaker 2: I sit down and think, I hope something happens today.
Speaker 2: So the thing I do is I often edit a
Speaker 2: little bit of what I've done.
Speaker 3: The day before because it's too.
Speaker 2: Scary to just start write something new. I have to
Speaker 2: trick myself into it. So if I'm just fixing up
Speaker 2: a couple of sentences of what I've written the day before,
Speaker 2: then I can sort of side all my way into
Speaker 2: the story.
Speaker 1: So for you, how does the plot or the structure
Speaker 1: of a book emerge? Because something I find about all
Speaker 1: of your books is that they've got such intricate and
Speaker 1: gripping plots, but also such well drawn out characters. And
Speaker 1: I'm so surprised that for hear you talk about how
Speaker 1: you sit down at the beginning, and you don't quite
Speaker 1: know where it's going to go. So how does that evolve?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I always just start with a premise, and so,
Speaker 2: for example, with Apples Never for this new book, I
Speaker 2: knew that I would have the mother disappearing. I knew
Speaker 2: that I would have somebody knocking on the door. So
Speaker 2: I knew I had had an elderly mother who disappears,
Speaker 2: and that the father is obviously the chief suspect her
Speaker 2: in her possible murder. And I also had this idea
Speaker 2: from an article I've read, even though it's not a
Speaker 2: particularly unique literary device to have a stranger appear, but
Speaker 2: I'd actually read an article about an elderly couple who
Speaker 2: had a young woman knock on their door late at night,
Speaker 2: and they let her in and let her stay the night.
Speaker 2: So I knew I wanted that, and then I just
Speaker 2: but I have no idea at the beginning of the novel.
Speaker 2: I don't know where she's disappeared. I don't know how
Speaker 2: this young woman who knocks on the door, how she's
Speaker 2: going to connect. But at least it's enough to start
Speaker 2: my first chapter. And so while I'm writing my first chapter,
Speaker 2: I'm just constantly thinking, so maybe it's this, or maybe
Speaker 2: it's that, And then I I can see a tiny
Speaker 2: way ahead, so I think, well, I know, so she's
Speaker 2: staying the night, so what will happen during the night.
Speaker 2: And then as I'm writing the characters, I'm getting to
Speaker 2: know them. So I always miss my characters from my
Speaker 2: previous book when I'm writing a new book. So with
Speaker 2: this one, I missed my nine perfect Strangers because I
Speaker 2: knew them so well. So in the beginning of a novel,
Speaker 2: my characters feel very wooden and cartoonish. But then through
Speaker 2: the process of writing them, so I'm trying different things.
Speaker 2: Then about a third of the way in, then I think, OK,
Speaker 2: now I know this person. They start to move for me.
Speaker 2: So there's a slightly magical process that happens where you know,
Speaker 2: I might have taken one attribute a real person's attribute. So,
Speaker 2: for example, with big little Eyes, with the character of Madeline,
Speaker 2: I can always remember that I wrote down perpetually outraged
Speaker 2: like so and so, and also shimmery, shimmery, sparkly girl
Speaker 2: like so and so and so. I had those two attributes,
Speaker 2: and then I started writing her, and then she became Madeline.
Speaker 2: He was, in fact nothing like either of those two
Speaker 2: real people. But it sometimes helps to have just a
Speaker 2: particular attribute. So I would say often will take real
Speaker 2: people's attributes, but I've never ever taken an entire personality.
Speaker 2: They become their own people. So once I know my characters,
Speaker 2: then I can go back to the beginning and think, well,
Speaker 2: she wouldn't have said this, or she wouldn't have responded
Speaker 2: like this, or I've got particular speech patterns that she
Speaker 2: might use, and I can put those in and in
Speaker 2: the same way. Once I know what's going to happen,
Speaker 2: so I know where she is, I knew worked out
Speaker 2: who this woman was who knocked on the door. Then
Speaker 2: I can go back and change things. I can put
Speaker 2: in my red hairing, I can signpost certain things. I
Speaker 2: always have a separate document called things I need to fix,
Speaker 2: because I am working it.
Speaker 3: Out as I go along.
Speaker 2: So you know, now you know, in this book, I
Speaker 2: had the characters Stan. He doesn't own a mobile phone,
Speaker 2: which I needed him not to own a mobile phone,
Speaker 2: but I didn't know that in the beginning. So in
Speaker 2: the beginning I have him lying in bed looking through
Speaker 2: his mobile phone. So obviously I'm going to have to
Speaker 2: go back and fix that. So I never want to
Speaker 2: give the impression that even though I don't plan and
Speaker 2: that it just sort of flows from me making perfect
Speaker 2: sense somehow along the way. It's just I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm working it out as I go along, and then
Speaker 2: I'm going back and rearranging the jigsaw pieces.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Now, I want to know with the premise
Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm just I'm so intrigued by what
Speaker 1: you know in your head when you start writing a
Speaker 1: book and just how much evolves. How do you know
Speaker 1: that you've got the right premise to begin with.
Speaker 2: I think I just know if I'm interested enough that
Speaker 2: I keep thinking about it, so because I know I've
Speaker 2: had other things where they've been in my head, and
Speaker 2: then if it doesn't stay with me, then I let
Speaker 2: it go. But if you know, if I'm just going
Speaker 2: for a walk and I keep thinking of that idea,
Speaker 2: And I did just find that idea interesting of how
Speaker 2: would you feel if your mother? So how would I
Speaker 2: feel as an adult if my mother had gone missing
Speaker 2: and people were saying they believed my father had murdered
Speaker 2: my mother? And how And I found that interesting and
Speaker 2: also thinking about how would my siblings feel, so that
Speaker 2: then gives you each sibling can have a different perspective
Speaker 2: and then you can have factions form. So just if
Speaker 2: it keeps unfurling in my mind, then I think, I
Speaker 2: think I'll.
Speaker 3: Go with this.
Speaker 2: But it's terrifying because there and I think, I hope
Speaker 2: it's going I hope it's going to work.
Speaker 1: We will be back very soon talking about how Leanne
Speaker 1: keeps herself motivated when she's working on a book, the
Speaker 1: celebration rituals that she has after typing the words the end,
Speaker 1: and also how she manages critical self talk. Now, if
Speaker 1: you are interested in consuming more content from me, maybe
Speaker 1: follow me on the socials because I post various bits
Speaker 1: of hopefully interesting things there. You can find me on
Speaker 1: LinkedIn just search for Amantha INBA and on Instagram find
Speaker 1: me at Amantha I, and also on Twitter at Amantha. Now,
Speaker 1: how do you stay motivated when writing a book because
Speaker 1: it's such a big, long process, and particularly you mentioned
Speaker 1: that the first third where you're still figuring things out,
Speaker 1: can be really kind of daunting. How are you maintaining motivation?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's horrible.
Speaker 2: In the beginning, there is a lot of flailing about
Speaker 2: trying to trying to make myself work. There are just
Speaker 2: little things, little rewards. I do have a notebook where
Speaker 2: I write down my word count for each day, so
Speaker 2: you know, in the if I'd written with an old
Speaker 2: fashioned typewriter, you'd see your page, your pile of pages
Speaker 2: growing next to you. But in this case, all I
Speaker 2: can do is write down my word count. So I'm
Speaker 2: constantly counting words because that's your pile of pages that
Speaker 2: you can see growing. So I do tend to this
Speaker 2: is sort of embarrassing. I write down little like, you know,
Speaker 2: a thousand words today, well, and a little praise for
Speaker 2: myself for a little stars you did.
Speaker 1: Well, what else are you doing to encourage yourself along
Speaker 1: the way.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's I think that's just in that
Speaker 2: beginning bit. It really is just seeing the word count.
Speaker 2: But of course, now I've got a contract, so now
Speaker 2: I've got a deadline, and I'm well behaved, so i'm
Speaker 2: you know, I want to I want to please my publishers,
Speaker 2: so it is my job. With my first book, I
Speaker 2: wrote it as part of a master's degree, and in
Speaker 2: a way I often wondered would I have been able
Speaker 2: to have written my first book without that structure because
Speaker 2: I was just trying to impress the teacher and the
Speaker 2: other students. So it was wonderful having other students to
Speaker 2: give feedback each each week. So perhaps you could have
Speaker 2: achieved the same thing with a writer's group, but I
Speaker 2: was you know, that was expensive, that that degree, so
Speaker 2: I was paying money for it, and so it made
Speaker 2: it feel like I want to I want to please
Speaker 2: the teacher, I want to show off to the other students.
Speaker 2: So that kept me going to get me through. But
Speaker 2: now now it's the contract that does it. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it's hard because it's a funny job in the you know,
Speaker 2: you could I could say tomorrow I will do nothing
Speaker 2: and that will make no difference, so I won't get
Speaker 2: into trouble for that and the next day and the
Speaker 2: next day. But there's a certain number of days where
Speaker 2: you better, you know, get onto it because otherwise you'll
Speaker 2: you'll miss your deadline.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how about when you finish your book? Do you
Speaker 1: have any rituals to celebrate or mark the end of
Speaker 1: a book?
Speaker 2: Only that I go to a particular restaurant which I'm
Speaker 2: not allowed to go to at the moment with Sydney
Speaker 2: in lockdown and have a particular cocktail or two. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that's just it's really just that dinner. It's the best,
Speaker 2: it is the best feeling. And I always write the
Speaker 2: words the end when I finished, even though the words
Speaker 2: the end don't actually appear in a novel. I like
Speaker 2: writing the end, and I never I know some authors,
Speaker 2: do you know they do different drafts, whereas I'm redrafting
Speaker 2: as I go. So therefore I often might hold off
Speaker 2: writing that last paragraph or that last scene because I
Speaker 2: really want to be able to say the end once
Speaker 2: I've written it. I don't, you know, my things I
Speaker 2: need to fix document, I don't I want all that done.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so it's a bit. It's just allowing me
Speaker 2: that thrill, the thrill of goosebumps when you write the end.
Speaker 1: Love that now, I imagine with every book that you write,
Speaker 1: and just the huge success that they've all had, that
Speaker 1: sense of pressure when you start the next piece of
Speaker 1: work that you're going to create, like must I don't
Speaker 1: know if that's cumulative, but I want to know what's like,
Speaker 1: how do you manage that pressure?
Speaker 2: Well, I guess I just have to put it all aside.
Speaker 2: With this book, I had a little bit I asked
Speaker 2: for extra time. So normally I have a book out
Speaker 2: every two years, and with this book, it's been three years.
Speaker 2: And I did love that because I felt I felt
Speaker 2: a sense of freedom in that. I was thinking, you
Speaker 2: know my terror that I described, I hope it's going
Speaker 2: to work this time. I was thinking, work, it doesn't work,
Speaker 2: It's okay, I've got time. I can throw it all away,
Speaker 2: and eventually it just disappears because then the story takes over.
Speaker 2: So then I'm interested enough in my characters and I'm
Speaker 2: having fun with it. So it's just getting through those
Speaker 2: first early months and knowing the good bits coming where
Speaker 2: I'll just be in with them, and just looking forward
Speaker 2: to spending the day with those characters.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like managing that self talk is
Speaker 1: just so critical.
Speaker 3: Oh, it really is.
Speaker 1: What strategies have you found to help with that, either
Speaker 1: that you use on your own or maybe that your
Speaker 1: husband or friends help with.
Speaker 2: Oh, nothing, nothing particularly innovative. I guess the fact that
Speaker 2: I've done it. I've done it before, and this is
Speaker 2: what always happens. It's it's like the process of doing
Speaker 2: a spin class. So when you do it. Anytime I
Speaker 2: do a spin class, I can hardly bear those.
Speaker 3: First few songs.
Speaker 2: You know, you know, you're puffing and you're panting, and
Speaker 2: just thinks, oh this is this is just horrible. And
Speaker 2: then somehow something happens and you warm up, I guess,
Speaker 2: and you're in doorphins go and I just think, you
Speaker 2: know it will come. It's just you've just got a
Speaker 2: puffy way through. So maybe that's all. It's just telling
Speaker 2: myself it will it will come, and doing lots of
Speaker 2: those those little, those sappy little messages I write to myself.
Speaker 2: You might talk to talk to friends who you say
Speaker 2: you can do it, but no, you just got to
Speaker 2: power your way through.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about the process for seeing your
Speaker 1: books made into TV shows, and I'd love to know
Speaker 1: with big little lies, which I imagine a lot of people
Speaker 1: have seen. I personally loved it, loved the book, love
Speaker 1: the show. How involved you in that process? What did
Speaker 1: that look like behind the scenes.
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: I wasn't involved in a hands on way at all.
Speaker 2: So I was asked if I wanted to write the screenplay.
Speaker 2: But as I said, for me that one of the
Speaker 2: biggest pleasures of writing is not knowing what's going to happen.
Speaker 2: So to me, the thought of rewriting my own book
Speaker 2: for another medium. Actually, it just makes me want to
Speaker 2: cry with boredom. I just can think of nothing worse.
Speaker 2: So I was never interested in And I also always
Speaker 2: have believed that adaptations should not be too faithful to
Speaker 2: the source material, that there are some changes that should
Speaker 2: be made to suit film or television. And I know
Speaker 2: that if I was doing it then I would hold
Speaker 2: on to tightly, so I was very happy to just
Speaker 2: hand it over. And of course, when I heard that
Speaker 2: David E. Kelly was writing the screenplay for Big Little Eyes,
Speaker 2: I was thrilled and knew I was in safe hands.
Speaker 2: So I was just a very interested bystander. And I
Speaker 2: do think I was very lucky because I don't think
Speaker 2: every author has that experience in that they kept me,
Speaker 2: They kept me involved without me actually having to do anything,
Speaker 2: but I always felt part of it. So they were
Speaker 2: just lovely to me. And I had the fun of
Speaker 2: visiting the set and you know, texting me photos from
Speaker 2: the set, and I got to be there on the
Speaker 2: night that they were filming the Big School Trivia night,
Speaker 2: so that was an amazing night to be there. So
Speaker 2: just to see the process, the whole the whole thing,
Speaker 2: from catering to the set design to the costumes.
Speaker 3: I just I just loved it.
Speaker 1: I imagine that it must be this sort of strange
Speaker 1: balancing act, like when you're a writer, but a really
Speaker 1: successful one who part of your job is being on
Speaker 1: the book tour, the pr circuit talking about your work
Speaker 1: after you've gone through quite a solitary process creating it,
Speaker 1: and it's very clear that you're much more comfortable in
Speaker 1: the writing side of things. How how do you manage
Speaker 1: your energy? I guess for when you're in the part
Speaker 1: of the process that you're in now, which is talking
Speaker 1: about your work.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's hard. Did my energy just drop? Did
Speaker 2: you feel No?
Speaker 1: I did it. I did it.
Speaker 3: But having read a lot.
Speaker 1: Of interviews with you, I know that that's the thing
Speaker 1: for you, like that you know this is not your
Speaker 1: favorite part of the process.
Speaker 2: I know I should stop saying that. And the fact is,
Speaker 2: which has really really been clarified by the pandemic, is
Speaker 2: that I do love meeting readers. So I miss the
Speaker 2: book tours because I do love that part of my job,
Speaker 2: meeting people and hearing readers say, you know, your book
Speaker 2: got me through a difficult time or you know, things
Speaker 2: that they related to in the book, whether it was
Speaker 2: about infertility or domestic violence. Sold have had some really
Speaker 2: emotional conversations in the signing line. So I do find
Speaker 2: that actually I didn't realize how much I would miss that,
Speaker 2: which I have this time, but this side of it,
Speaker 2: so I enjoy talking to you. It's the aftermath where
Speaker 2: I can go into a spiral of anxiety thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: why did you say that? Or I shouldn't have said this,
Speaker 2: or you know, replaying everything. It's just an agony of
Speaker 2: self consciousness. I feel like when I grow up, I'll
Speaker 2: get over that. I'm not sure when I'm going to
Speaker 2: grow when I'm sixty.
Speaker 1: How do you get through that then? Because that must
Speaker 1: be tiring, like, you know, going, oh God, did I
Speaker 1: say that? What did I say?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Did I sound okay?
Speaker 3: Yes? I don't know.
Speaker 2: I just have to I don't know. I don't Sometimes
Speaker 2: I think, oh, I'm good, I can do this now,
Speaker 2: I'm good at this, But then you forget because you
Speaker 2: go back into an entirely different way of working, which
Speaker 2: is where you're sitting at your at your desk and
Speaker 2: you know, talking to friends and family. I sometimes think
Speaker 2: it's not good when I get to when I've been
Speaker 2: doing too many events, and then I think, oh, no,
Speaker 2: you're starting to like this. You're actually starting to like
Speaker 2: the sound of your own voice. Look at you and
Speaker 2: so there, so that's not good either. I do get
Speaker 2: smoother towards the end I'm watching others. I always remember
Speaker 2: watching being on the Red Carpet with Nicole and she
Speaker 2: was asked, you know, all those cameras are flashing, and
Speaker 2: somebody said to her, A journalist said to her something like,
Speaker 2: I'll describe describe the series in just a couple of lines.
Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, how she
Speaker 2: How is she going to do that? Because I think
Speaker 2: of every interviewers question as if it's a test and
Speaker 2: that I must answer correctly and accurately. And Nicole said, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that. Watch the series. She said,
Speaker 2: it's impossible, and you just moved on. And it was
Speaker 2: such a revelation to me that actually, I'm allowed to
Speaker 2: You can say no, I can't do that. It's not
Speaker 2: a it's not a test.
Speaker 3: Love that now.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've worked with some incredibly amazing people and
Speaker 1: women like Nicole and like Reese Witherspoon would have been
Speaker 1: some of the best pieces of advice or things that
Speaker 1: they've taught you.
Speaker 3: I don't know that.
Speaker 2: I don't think they've given me advice as such, but
Speaker 2: things I've learned. Just as I said, by watching them
Speaker 2: deal with the media, I have been inspired by their
Speaker 2: past and their enthusiasm. It wasn't what I expected. I thought.
Speaker 2: I thought that'd be perhaps more cynical or jaded about
Speaker 2: the business, but they weren't at all. They still love
Speaker 2: what they do, They still care very much about what
Speaker 2: they do, and I was really it sounds silly that
Speaker 2: I didn't expect them to care to care as much
Speaker 2: as I do. I think I thought that'd be cooler
Speaker 2: and colder, especially when it came to me, and perhaps
Speaker 2: more dismissive with me. But in fact, they're just lovely
Speaker 2: and warm and welcoming and cared very much about their work.
Speaker 2: So that was the main thing that I've been inspired by.
Speaker 1: Now I'm curious about reviews, and one of the things
Speaker 1: about putting creative work in the public is that you
Speaker 1: get reviews, and some are amazing and some are not.
Speaker 1: What's your process for I guess, like reading reviews. Do
Speaker 1: you read reviews and how do you deal with negative ones?
Speaker 2: Well? I did, I did, used to read all my reviews.
Speaker 2: And apparently I said that in an interview because somebody
Speaker 2: put that she quoted my strange hearing my own self
Speaker 2: say that. Apparently I said I read all my reviews,
Speaker 2: and I no longer.
Speaker 3: The fact is I no longer do that. That was
Speaker 3: my younger self.
Speaker 2: So I do not look at reader reviews because of
Speaker 2: that tendency to you know, you can see ten wonderful reviews,
Speaker 2: but it's only the you know, the one negative review
Speaker 2: will be the one that gets stuck in your head.
Speaker 2: And those voices can get terribly stuck in your head
Speaker 2: and you take them, you know, just one person. I'm
Speaker 2: trying to think there was one example of something where
Speaker 2: I realized I was doing it to please that one person.
Speaker 2: I can't think now, but yeah, and then you're ignoring
Speaker 2: all the positive comments. So, for example, I know that
Speaker 2: sometimes people get disappointed because my books. Sometimes I think
Speaker 2: a're marketed too much as thrillers, and I don't think
Speaker 2: they're they're thrilling enough to be thrillers. So if you
Speaker 2: if you love a thriller, then you might come to
Speaker 2: my book and think and become impatient and think, you know,
Speaker 2: I get a move on because I'm going too much
Speaker 2: into my character's backstories or whatever. But if I listen
Speaker 2: too much to that, then the readers who do love
Speaker 2: that side of it, then you know that, then I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be giving them what they enjoy. So I just
Speaker 2: have to write the way of I've always written. But yes,
Speaker 2: certain certain reviews. So for example, I can remember reading
Speaker 2: one read review many many years ago, and she said,
Speaker 2: she's just trying to sound Australian. She's got the characters.
Speaker 2: She said, I know somebody who lives in that area
Speaker 2: and nobody. They don't call each other mate. And so
Speaker 2: now all these years later, whenever I hear anybody saying
Speaker 2: oh thanks mate, or whatever, I think to myself, I
Speaker 2: have this resemful See see, of course they do. It's
Speaker 2: so ridiculous. What does it matter that this one person
Speaker 2: I can't get her out of my head? Wow?
Speaker 1: Fair enough. Now, I mentioned to you before we started
Speaker 1: recording that I'm about a third of the way through
Speaker 1: Apple's Never Fall, and when I'm interviewing someone that has
Speaker 1: written their latest book, I'll always have finished it before
Speaker 1: the interview, but I said to you, like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I've been so looking forward to your next book to
Speaker 1: come out because I've read all of your books and
Speaker 1: I love them, and it's like, I just love the
Speaker 1: process of savoring fiction and that's what I'm doing. But
Speaker 1: I must say I'm loving it so far. So for
Speaker 1: people that are keen to get their hands on Apple's
Speaker 1: never before or consume anything that you have put into
Speaker 1: the world. What is the best way for people to
Speaker 1: do that?
Speaker 2: Oh, just wherever you buy books, a local bookshop that
Speaker 2: you support, that's wonderful. But of course you can also
Speaker 2: buy books online. My books are on Audible, my books
Speaker 2: are on you can read on your kindles. So however
Speaker 2: you buy your books. And my audio narrator is Caroline Lee,
Speaker 2: who I know people love, so I would like to
Speaker 2: thank her because she adds to my reader's enjoyment. So
Speaker 2: wherever you find your books, you should hopefully find a
Speaker 2: Lean Mariatti book.
Speaker 1: Fantastic, amazing. Well, I've just I've loved chatting with you.
Speaker 1: I love everything that you put out into the world.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for bringing so much joy
Speaker 1: to my life.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Amantha. Thank you. That's a lovely comic.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you too,
Speaker 2: I promise I really have.
Speaker 1: Oh good, that makes me feel good. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for listening. I hope you found some inspiration in
Speaker 1: some of Leanne's methods for how she approaches her work.
Speaker 1: And if you are not a subscriber or follower of
Speaker 1: How I Work, now might be the time to hit
Speaker 1: that button wherever you listen to your podcast, because next
Speaker 1: week we'll be continuing this theme of wellness at work,
Speaker 1: which I've been at during the month of October, and
Speaker 1: I will be talking to the ex CEO of Swiss Wellness,
Speaker 1: radex Sally, about how he tested his DNA and how
Speaker 1: that really changed his behavior. How I Work is produced
Speaker 1: by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The
Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you
Speaker 1: to Martin Nimba, who did the audio mix and makes
Speaker 1: everything sound better than it would have otherwise. See you
Speaker 1: next time.