1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: When I think about knowledge work and how to do 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: it well, I'm sure I'm not alone in picturing the 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: novelist bent over a desk in the dead of night, 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 1: burning the midnight oil, sucking on the end of a 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: pen as she tries to break that crucial last act 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: of her story. And I know I'm not alone in 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,639 Speaker 1: my fascination with the schedules of great writers from history. 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean, whole books are dedicated to examining the daily 9 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: routines of everyone from Ernest Hemingway to Virginia Wolf. We're 10 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: obsessed with the image of the writer and insatiably curious 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: about how they brought are culture's greatest works into being, 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: and this definitely applies to the modern writer. Leanne Moriarty 13 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: is the author behind Big Little Lies, Nine Perfect Strangers, 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: and The Husband's Secret, among many others. She's the first 15 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: Australian author ever today debut a novel at number one 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: on the New York Times Bestsellers list, and the Emmy 17 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: winning HBO adaptation of Big Little Eyes, co produced by 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 1: and starring Nicole Kidman and Rhys Rieverspoon, propelled her to 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:20,119 Speaker 1: international stardom. And also, let's not forget the more recent 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: Amazon adaptation of Nine Perfect Strangers. But does that romantic 21 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: image of the solitary artist ring true in the modern 22 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: day for Leanne? And how does she stay focused in 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: our age of distraction? Is she using modern tools or 24 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: does she look to the past for scheduling inspiration? And 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: how does Leanne tame her inner critic in her head? 26 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Romantha Imba. I'm an organizational psychologist 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium. And this 28 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: is how I work, a show about how to help 29 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: you do your best work. Leanne has achieved such an 30 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: incredible amount as an author, I mean maybe more than 31 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: any other modern Australian author. So with their latest book, 32 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: Apple's Never Fall, hitting bookshelves last month, how does she 33 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: think about what's next? 34 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: Well, it does take me a while to get back 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 2: into writing mode again, So I definitely I can't be 36 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 2: the sort of person who does an interview and then 37 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: goes and sits down and writes, because I feel like 38 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: they're two different parts of me that are working. 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: You know. 40 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: One is I'm I am a writer and right now 41 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 2: I feel I'm performing as a writer. I'm too self conscious. 42 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: If I sat down and wrote now, because I will 43 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: have talked about, oh, I don't plan my books, and 44 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: then I'll sit down and think, oh, look at me 45 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 2: not planning my books. I can't stand it. I need 46 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: to have a little break in between this side of things. 47 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 2: So once I've finished, you know, the publicity tour for 48 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: a new book, I have a few weeks off and 49 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 2: then I do none of these sort of events or 50 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 2: podcasts or anything, which I know is not the case 51 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: for all authors. Some authors seem to be able to 52 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 2: simultaneously handle handle both sides. But I need to stop 53 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 2: because when I write, I need to lose my sense 54 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 2: of self. And so I guess what I'll do is, 55 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: once I've finished, we'll eventually by myself a special, very 56 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 2: fancy new notebook, which I'll take a lot of time 57 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 2: choosing one of those expensive ones, you know, the gorgeous 58 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: ones with the really lovely covers, and you know, to 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: be honest, I don't actually do all that much with 60 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: the notepad. It seems to be part of the pros. 61 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 2: I like the thought of myself going to cafes and 62 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 2: writing notes in it, or going to special locations, but 63 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: really only write a few pages, and then that seems 64 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 2: to be enough to get me going, and then I 65 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: just sit at my computer. I can't do I can't 66 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: do the jk rowling thing and write it all, write 67 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: it at cafes. I have two sisters who are authors, 68 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: and both of them can do that, and I try 69 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: because I love the idea of it, but I seem 70 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: to need to have my keyboard and my monitor in 71 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: front of me. 72 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: Let's dig into your writing process a bit more and 73 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: tell me what does a typical day look like when 74 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: you are mid book. 75 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: Well, I don't have I don't have too many typical 76 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: days in the way that I've heard some authors describe them, 77 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 2: where they say I get up at this time and 78 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: I drink this particular drink, and I walk here and 79 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: then I sit down and do two hours before ten am. 80 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: I don't have a strip schedule like that at all. Yes, So, 81 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: which is why when I told my husband I was 82 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: speaking on this podcast, he found it hilarious that I 83 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 2: would have anything to say about being adding productivity. And 84 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: I do have two young children, so I work within 85 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: the school day, but every day feels a little bit 86 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: different depending on on what's going on with them or 87 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: even how I feel that day, so I did. When 88 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: the children were babies, I used to have a babysitter 89 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: who would come for three hours at a time, and 90 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 2: I did find that before having the babysitter, compared for 91 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: before children, I became more productive because I would only 92 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: have her for the three hours. I would have to 93 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: close the office doore, and I couldn't come out for 94 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: another cup of tea because that would be embarrassing because 95 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: she'd know that I had just had one. And so 96 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: I do think in my mind I've still kept up 97 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: since then, and I think I wrote really well in 98 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: that time because time was so precious and because I 99 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 2: was paying somebody to so I knew I had to work. 100 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 2: I couldn't just I don't know, serve the internet. But 101 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 2: so ever since then, I've started to think of my 102 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: writing as being in a three hour shift, so to 103 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: think I'll do it. I'll do a shift now, so 104 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: you know it might be ten to one. 105 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 3: I do do. I use the. 106 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: Freedom, the program Freedom, which I'm sure you know about 107 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: that I've seen it in lots of authors acknowledgments that 108 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: it restricts your access to the Internet, and. 109 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: Can I actually ask how you use Freedom? So for 110 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: those that are not familiar with it. I think the 111 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: website is Freedom dot two and there's a free version, 112 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: and you can block websites and you can block software 113 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: at certain times of day. So can you tell me 114 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:19,520 Speaker 1: how you specifically use freedom? 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, well, one embarrassing problems. I thought that freedom restricted everything. 116 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: I thought it didn't let me get email either. And 117 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: I believed this for a long time. So because I 118 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: believed it, I therefore didn't check my email. So I 119 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: would So the way I used it was just And 120 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: what was wonderful about it was that it makes me 121 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: feel like it's programming me to write. So you could 122 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: put in a certain amount of time that you Internet 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: would be restricted so you could program and I'd say 124 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: normally my three hour or even I might think, especially 125 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: if I'm at the beginning of a book where it's 126 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: hard to get into the flow, so I think, okay, 127 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: just write for an hour. But for whatever amount of time, 128 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 2: I think, wonderful, I'm going I know, I'm going to 129 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: write for that amount of time. But yes, then I 130 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: discovered I think emails still. 131 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: Coming through. 132 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 2: One so new that I was still getting emailed, then 133 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: there was nothing to stop me from checking email. It's 134 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: very embarrassing. I actually wrote to the people who make 135 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: it and said please, it used to stop me from 136 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 2: getting and they said, no, we can't do that. Sorry. Yes, 137 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: and it's worse these days since the pandemic. You know, 138 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 2: the habit of doom scrolling through your phone, so I 139 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: need the phone not to be near me too. 140 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 1: Now I've heard that you have a beautiful ornate egg 141 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: timer to help with productivity. Can you tell me about that. 142 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: Yes, it's just a gift that a friend gave me, 143 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: and I think it goes for thirty minutes, So I 144 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: just use that, especially when I'm. 145 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 3: At the beginning of a book. So it's fine. 146 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: Once a book has momentum, which seems to happen about 147 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 2: maybe a third of the way through, I don't need 148 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: it as much because I can I know my characters, 149 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: and I can see where the story's going. But in 150 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: the beginning of a new novel, I'm always flailing about. 151 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: There's a lot of a lot of self loathing and 152 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: just I can't do this. And sometimes even when you 153 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: sit down to write a book in the beginning, I 154 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 2: feel almost silly. You know, what are you doing here? 155 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 2: Making up a story that feels foolish. So the point 156 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: of the egg timer is just to say I will 157 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 2: write and for the next until that last grain of 158 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,679 Speaker 2: set and falls through, and I won't think about it. 159 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: I will have no. 160 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 2: You know, what's what's the word critical? I can't think 161 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: of the word. But I done self talk, just the 162 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: self talk, just to I can't think I'm trying to say, 163 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 2: but that it's just just right and it doesn't matter 164 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: if it's bad, if it's good, it doesn't matter. You 165 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: just must write for the next and it's thirty minutes, 166 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: and that often does finally gets you get you going. 167 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: So often the first few lines are this is stupid, 168 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: this is you know, just what ever anything? And then 169 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: finally it's always that losing your sense of self where 170 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 2: that you just find and you know, athletes talk about it, 171 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 2: getting in the zone and meditators talk about it, and 172 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: it's and that I think it's just called flow when 173 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 2: you finally achieve that, which is the most glorious. 174 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 3: Feeling of aught, which is basically why I write. 175 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: When you look up from the computer and you sort 176 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 2: of blink because you've been lost in that world. 177 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: Have you found any tricks to get yourself in to 178 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: flow more quickly or more predictably. 179 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: No only to just to no I want them, no 180 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: only just to write the thing I do. I'm not 181 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: a planner, so I don't know what's going to happen 182 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: with my books. So that means it's a really fun 183 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: way to write, because I sit down at my desk 184 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 2: each day and think, I wonder what's going to happen today. 185 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: But it's also a scary, scary way to write, because 186 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: I sit down and think, I hope something happens today. 187 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 2: So the thing I do is I often edit a 188 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 2: little bit of what I've done. 189 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 3: The day before because it's too. 190 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: Scary to just start write something new. I have to 191 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 2: trick myself into it. So if I'm just fixing up 192 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 2: a couple of sentences of what I've written the day before, 193 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: then I can sort of side all my way into 194 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 2: the story. 195 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: So for you, how does the plot or the structure 196 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: of a book emerge? Because something I find about all 197 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: of your books is that they've got such intricate and 198 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: gripping plots, but also such well drawn out characters. And 199 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: I'm so surprised that for hear you talk about how 200 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: you sit down at the beginning, and you don't quite 201 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: know where it's going to go. So how does that evolve? 202 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I always just start with a premise, and so, 203 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 2: for example, with Apples Never for this new book, I 204 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 2: knew that I would have the mother disappearing. I knew 205 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 2: that I would have somebody knocking on the door. So 206 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: I knew I had had an elderly mother who disappears, 207 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 2: and that the father is obviously the chief suspect her 208 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: in her possible murder. And I also had this idea 209 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 2: from an article I've read, even though it's not a 210 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 2: particularly unique literary device to have a stranger appear, but 211 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 2: I'd actually read an article about an elderly couple who 212 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: had a young woman knock on their door late at night, 213 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 2: and they let her in and let her stay the night. 214 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: So I knew I wanted that, and then I just 215 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: but I have no idea at the beginning of the novel. 216 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: I don't know where she's disappeared. I don't know how 217 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 2: this young woman who knocks on the door, how she's 218 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: going to connect. But at least it's enough to start 219 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: my first chapter. And so while I'm writing my first chapter, 220 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: I'm just constantly thinking, so maybe it's this, or maybe 221 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 2: it's that, And then I I can see a tiny 222 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: way ahead, so I think, well, I know, so she's 223 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: staying the night, so what will happen during the night. 224 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: And then as I'm writing the characters, I'm getting to 225 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 2: know them. So I always miss my characters from my 226 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: previous book when I'm writing a new book. So with 227 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: this one, I missed my nine perfect Strangers because I 228 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 2: knew them so well. So in the beginning of a novel, 229 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: my characters feel very wooden and cartoonish. But then through 230 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 2: the process of writing them, so I'm trying different things. 231 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 2: Then about a third of the way in, then I think, OK, 232 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 2: now I know this person. They start to move for me. 233 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: So there's a slightly magical process that happens where you know, 234 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: I might have taken one attribute a real person's attribute. So, 235 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: for example, with big little Eyes, with the character of Madeline, 236 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: I can always remember that I wrote down perpetually outraged 237 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: like so and so, and also shimmery, shimmery, sparkly girl 238 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: like so and so and so. I had those two attributes, 239 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: and then I started writing her, and then she became Madeline. 240 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: He was, in fact nothing like either of those two 241 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: real people. But it sometimes helps to have just a 242 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: particular attribute. So I would say often will take real 243 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: people's attributes, but I've never ever taken an entire personality. 244 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 2: They become their own people. So once I know my characters, 245 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: then I can go back to the beginning and think, well, 246 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 2: she wouldn't have said this, or she wouldn't have responded 247 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 2: like this, or I've got particular speech patterns that she 248 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: might use, and I can put those in and in 249 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 2: the same way. Once I know what's going to happen, 250 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 2: so I know where she is, I knew worked out 251 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: who this woman was who knocked on the door. Then 252 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 2: I can go back and change things. I can put 253 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 2: in my red hairing, I can signpost certain things. I 254 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: always have a separate document called things I need to fix, 255 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: because I am working it. 256 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: Out as I go along. 257 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 2: So you know, now you know, in this book, I 258 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: had the characters Stan. He doesn't own a mobile phone, 259 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: which I needed him not to own a mobile phone, 260 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: but I didn't know that in the beginning. So in 261 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: the beginning I have him lying in bed looking through 262 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: his mobile phone. So obviously I'm going to have to 263 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 2: go back and fix that. So I never want to 264 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 2: give the impression that even though I don't plan and 265 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: that it just sort of flows from me making perfect 266 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: sense somehow along the way. It's just I don't know. 267 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: I'm working it out as I go along, and then 268 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm going back and rearranging the jigsaw pieces. 269 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Now, I want to know with the premise 270 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and I'm just I'm so intrigued by what 271 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: you know in your head when you start writing a 272 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: book and just how much evolves. How do you know 273 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: that you've got the right premise to begin with. 274 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: I think I just know if I'm interested enough that 275 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,400 Speaker 2: I keep thinking about it, so because I know I've 276 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: had other things where they've been in my head, and 277 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 2: then if it doesn't stay with me, then I let 278 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: it go. But if you know, if I'm just going 279 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: for a walk and I keep thinking of that idea, 280 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: And I did just find that idea interesting of how 281 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: would you feel if your mother? So how would I 282 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 2: feel as an adult if my mother had gone missing 283 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 2: and people were saying they believed my father had murdered 284 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: my mother? And how And I found that interesting and 285 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: also thinking about how would my siblings feel, so that 286 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 2: then gives you each sibling can have a different perspective 287 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 2: and then you can have factions form. So just if 288 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: it keeps unfurling in my mind, then I think, I 289 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: think I'll. 290 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 3: Go with this. 291 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: But it's terrifying because there and I think, I hope 292 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: it's going I hope it's going to work. 293 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: We will be back very soon talking about how Leanne 294 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: keeps herself motivated when she's working on a book, the 295 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 1: celebration rituals that she has after typing the words the end, 296 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,400 Speaker 1: and also how she manages critical self talk. Now, if 297 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: you are interested in consuming more content from me, maybe 298 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: follow me on the socials because I post various bits 299 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: of hopefully interesting things there. You can find me on 300 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: LinkedIn just search for Amantha INBA and on Instagram find 301 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: me at Amantha I, and also on Twitter at Amantha. Now, 302 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: how do you stay motivated when writing a book because 303 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: it's such a big, long process, and particularly you mentioned 304 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 1: that the first third where you're still figuring things out, 305 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: can be really kind of daunting. How are you maintaining motivation? 306 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's horrible. 307 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: In the beginning, there is a lot of flailing about 308 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 2: trying to trying to make myself work. There are just 309 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: little things, little rewards. I do have a notebook where 310 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: I write down my word count for each day, so 311 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: you know, in the if I'd written with an old 312 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 2: fashioned typewriter, you'd see your page, your pile of pages 313 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 2: growing next to you. But in this case, all I 314 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: can do is write down my word count. So I'm 315 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,159 Speaker 2: constantly counting words because that's your pile of pages that 316 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 2: you can see growing. So I do tend to this 317 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: is sort of embarrassing. I write down little like, you know, 318 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 2: a thousand words today, well, and a little praise for 319 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: myself for a little stars you did. 320 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 1: Well, what else are you doing to encourage yourself along 321 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: the way. 322 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's I think that's just in that 323 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 2: beginning bit. It really is just seeing the word count. 324 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: But of course, now I've got a contract, so now 325 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: I've got a deadline, and I'm well behaved, so i'm 326 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, I want to I want to please my publishers, 327 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: so it is my job. With my first book, I 328 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 2: wrote it as part of a master's degree, and in 329 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 2: a way I often wondered would I have been able 330 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: to have written my first book without that structure because 331 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 2: I was just trying to impress the teacher and the 332 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,359 Speaker 2: other students. So it was wonderful having other students to 333 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: give feedback each each week. So perhaps you could have 334 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,199 Speaker 2: achieved the same thing with a writer's group, but I 335 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: was you know, that was expensive, that that degree, so 336 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 2: I was paying money for it, and so it made 337 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: it feel like I want to I want to please 338 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 2: the teacher, I want to show off to the other students. 339 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 2: So that kept me going to get me through. But 340 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: now now it's the contract that does it. But yeah, 341 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 2: it's hard because it's a funny job in the you know, 342 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: you could I could say tomorrow I will do nothing 343 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: and that will make no difference, so I won't get 344 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: into trouble for that and the next day and the 345 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 2: next day. But there's a certain number of days where 346 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 2: you better, you know, get onto it because otherwise you'll 347 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 2: you'll miss your deadline. 348 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, how about when you finish your book? Do you 349 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: have any rituals to celebrate or mark the end of 350 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: a book? 351 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: Only that I go to a particular restaurant which I'm 352 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: not allowed to go to at the moment with Sydney 353 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 2: in lockdown and have a particular cocktail or two. And yeah, 354 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: that's just it's really just that dinner. It's the best, 355 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: it is the best feeling. And I always write the 356 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: words the end when I finished, even though the words 357 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: the end don't actually appear in a novel. I like 358 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 2: writing the end, and I never I know some authors, 359 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: do you know they do different drafts, whereas I'm redrafting 360 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 2: as I go. So therefore I often might hold off 361 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: writing that last paragraph or that last scene because I 362 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 2: really want to be able to say the end once 363 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: I've written it. I don't, you know, my things I 364 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 2: need to fix document, I don't I want all that done. 365 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: So yeah, so it's a bit. It's just allowing me 366 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 2: that thrill, the thrill of goosebumps when you write the end. 367 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: Love that now, I imagine with every book that you write, 368 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: and just the huge success that they've all had, that 369 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: sense of pressure when you start the next piece of 370 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: work that you're going to create, like must I don't 371 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: know if that's cumulative, but I want to know what's like, 372 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: how do you manage that pressure? 373 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 2: Well, I guess I just have to put it all aside. 374 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: With this book, I had a little bit I asked 375 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: for extra time. So normally I have a book out 376 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: every two years, and with this book, it's been three years. 377 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: And I did love that because I felt I felt 378 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: a sense of freedom in that. I was thinking, you 379 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,680 Speaker 2: know my terror that I described, I hope it's going 380 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 2: to work this time. I was thinking, work, it doesn't work, 381 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: It's okay, I've got time. I can throw it all away, 382 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: and eventually it just disappears because then the story takes over. 383 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 2: So then I'm interested enough in my characters and I'm 384 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 2: having fun with it. So it's just getting through those 385 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: first early months and knowing the good bits coming where 386 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: I'll just be in with them, and just looking forward 387 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 2: to spending the day with those characters. 388 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like managing that self talk is 389 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 1: just so critical. 390 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: Oh, it really is. 391 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 1: What strategies have you found to help with that, either 392 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: that you use on your own or maybe that your 393 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: husband or friends help with. 394 00:24:55,119 --> 00:25:03,239 Speaker 2: Oh, nothing, nothing particularly innovative. I guess the fact that 395 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: I've done it. I've done it before, and this is 396 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 2: what always happens. It's it's like the process of doing 397 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 2: a spin class. So when you do it. Anytime I 398 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 2: do a spin class, I can hardly bear those. 399 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:20,480 Speaker 3: First few songs. 400 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 2: You know, you know, you're puffing and you're panting, and 401 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,719 Speaker 2: just thinks, oh this is this is just horrible. And 402 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 2: then somehow something happens and you warm up, I guess, 403 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: and you're in doorphins go and I just think, you 404 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 2: know it will come. It's just you've just got a 405 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 2: puffy way through. So maybe that's all. It's just telling 406 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 2: myself it will it will come, and doing lots of 407 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: those those little, those sappy little messages I write to myself. 408 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: You might talk to talk to friends who you say 409 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: you can do it, but no, you just got to 410 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 2: power your way through. 411 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: I want to talk about the process for seeing your 412 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: books made into TV shows, and I'd love to know 413 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: with big little lies, which I imagine a lot of people 414 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: have seen. I personally loved it, loved the book, love 415 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 1: the show. How involved you in that process? What did 416 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: that look like behind the scenes. 417 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: Well? 418 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 2: I wasn't involved in a hands on way at all. 419 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 2: So I was asked if I wanted to write the screenplay. 420 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 2: But as I said, for me that one of the 421 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 2: biggest pleasures of writing is not knowing what's going to happen. 422 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 2: So to me, the thought of rewriting my own book 423 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: for another medium. Actually, it just makes me want to 424 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: cry with boredom. I just can think of nothing worse. 425 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 2: So I was never interested in And I also always 426 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: have believed that adaptations should not be too faithful to 427 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: the source material, that there are some changes that should 428 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 2: be made to suit film or television. And I know 429 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: that if I was doing it then I would hold 430 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,719 Speaker 2: on to tightly, so I was very happy to just 431 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 2: hand it over. And of course, when I heard that 432 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: David E. Kelly was writing the screenplay for Big Little Eyes, 433 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: I was thrilled and knew I was in safe hands. 434 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: So I was just a very interested bystander. And I 435 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 2: do think I was very lucky because I don't think 436 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: every author has that experience in that they kept me, 437 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: They kept me involved without me actually having to do anything, 438 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: but I always felt part of it. So they were 439 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: just lovely to me. And I had the fun of 440 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: visiting the set and you know, texting me photos from 441 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: the set, and I got to be there on the 442 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,920 Speaker 2: night that they were filming the Big School Trivia night, 443 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: so that was an amazing night to be there. So 444 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: just to see the process, the whole the whole thing, 445 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 2: from catering to the set design to the costumes. 446 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 3: I just I just loved it. 447 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: I imagine that it must be this sort of strange 448 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 1: balancing act, like when you're a writer, but a really 449 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: successful one who part of your job is being on 450 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: the book tour, the pr circuit talking about your work 451 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: after you've gone through quite a solitary process creating it, 452 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: and it's very clear that you're much more comfortable in 453 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: the writing side of things. How how do you manage 454 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: your energy? I guess for when you're in the part 455 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: of the process that you're in now, which is talking 456 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: about your work. 457 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's hard. Did my energy just drop? Did 458 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 2: you feel No? 459 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,040 Speaker 1: I did it. I did it. 460 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 3: But having read a lot. 461 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: Of interviews with you, I know that that's the thing 462 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: for you, like that you know this is not your 463 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: favorite part of the process. 464 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: I know I should stop saying that. And the fact is, 465 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: which has really really been clarified by the pandemic, is 466 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 2: that I do love meeting readers. So I miss the 467 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: book tours because I do love that part of my job, 468 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: meeting people and hearing readers say, you know, your book 469 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: got me through a difficult time or you know, things 470 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: that they related to in the book, whether it was 471 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 2: about infertility or domestic violence. Sold have had some really 472 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: emotional conversations in the signing line. So I do find 473 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: that actually I didn't realize how much I would miss that, 474 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: which I have this time, but this side of it, 475 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: so I enjoy talking to you. It's the aftermath where 476 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 2: I can go into a spiral of anxiety thinking, oh, 477 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: why did you say that? Or I shouldn't have said this, 478 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 2: or you know, replaying everything. It's just an agony of 479 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: self consciousness. I feel like when I grow up, I'll 480 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 2: get over that. I'm not sure when I'm going to 481 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: grow when I'm sixty. 482 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: How do you get through that then? Because that must 483 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: be tiring, like, you know, going, oh God, did I 484 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: say that? What did I say? 485 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:42,239 Speaker 2: You know? 486 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: Did I sound okay? 487 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 3: Yes? I don't know. 488 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 2: I just have to I don't know. I don't Sometimes 489 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 2: I think, oh, I'm good, I can do this now, 490 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 2: I'm good at this, But then you forget because you 491 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: go back into an entirely different way of working, which 492 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: is where you're sitting at your at your desk and 493 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: you know, talking to friends and family. I sometimes think 494 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 2: it's not good when I get to when I've been 495 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: doing too many events, and then I think, oh, no, 496 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: you're starting to like this. You're actually starting to like 497 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,479 Speaker 2: the sound of your own voice. Look at you and 498 00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 2: so there, so that's not good either. I do get 499 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 2: smoother towards the end I'm watching others. I always remember 500 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: watching being on the Red Carpet with Nicole and she 501 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: was asked, you know, all those cameras are flashing, and 502 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: somebody said to her, A journalist said to her something like, 503 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 2: I'll describe describe the series in just a couple of lines. 504 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, Oh, my goodness, how she 505 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 2: How is she going to do that? Because I think 506 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 2: of every interviewers question as if it's a test and 507 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: that I must answer correctly and accurately. And Nicole said, oh, 508 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that. Watch the series. She said, 509 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 2: it's impossible, and you just moved on. And it was 510 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: such a revelation to me that actually, I'm allowed to 511 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: You can say no, I can't do that. It's not 512 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: a it's not a test. 513 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 3: Love that now. 514 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you've worked with some incredibly amazing people and 515 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: women like Nicole and like Reese Witherspoon would have been 516 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: some of the best pieces of advice or things that 517 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: they've taught you. 518 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 3: I don't know that. 519 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: I don't think they've given me advice as such, but 520 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: things I've learned. Just as I said, by watching them 521 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 2: deal with the media, I have been inspired by their 522 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: past and their enthusiasm. It wasn't what I expected. I thought. 523 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: I thought that'd be perhaps more cynical or jaded about 524 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 2: the business, but they weren't at all. They still love 525 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,959 Speaker 2: what they do, They still care very much about what 526 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 2: they do, and I was really it sounds silly that 527 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: I didn't expect them to care to care as much 528 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: as I do. I think I thought that'd be cooler 529 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 2: and colder, especially when it came to me, and perhaps 530 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: more dismissive with me. But in fact, they're just lovely 531 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: and warm and welcoming and cared very much about their work. 532 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: So that was the main thing that I've been inspired by. 533 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: Now I'm curious about reviews, and one of the things 534 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: about putting creative work in the public is that you 535 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 1: get reviews, and some are amazing and some are not. 536 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: What's your process for I guess, like reading reviews. Do 537 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: you read reviews and how do you deal with negative ones? 538 00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: Well? I did, I did, used to read all my reviews. 539 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 2: And apparently I said that in an interview because somebody 540 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 2: put that she quoted my strange hearing my own self 541 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 2: say that. Apparently I said I read all my reviews, 542 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: and I no longer. 543 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 3: The fact is I no longer do that. That was 544 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 3: my younger self. 545 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 2: So I do not look at reader reviews because of 546 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 2: that tendency to you know, you can see ten wonderful reviews, 547 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: but it's only the you know, the one negative review 548 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 2: will be the one that gets stuck in your head. 549 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 2: And those voices can get terribly stuck in your head 550 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 2: and you take them, you know, just one person. I'm 551 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 2: trying to think there was one example of something where 552 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 2: I realized I was doing it to please that one person. 553 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: I can't think now, but yeah, and then you're ignoring 554 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 2: all the positive comments. So, for example, I know that 555 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 2: sometimes people get disappointed because my books. Sometimes I think 556 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 2: a're marketed too much as thrillers, and I don't think 557 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 2: they're they're thrilling enough to be thrillers. So if you 558 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 2: if you love a thriller, then you might come to 559 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 2: my book and think and become impatient and think, you know, 560 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 2: I get a move on because I'm going too much 561 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 2: into my character's backstories or whatever. But if I listen 562 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 2: too much to that, then the readers who do love 563 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 2: that side of it, then you know that, then I 564 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,359 Speaker 2: wouldn't be giving them what they enjoy. So I just 565 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 2: have to write the way of I've always written. But yes, 566 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 2: certain certain reviews. So for example, I can remember reading 567 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 2: one read review many many years ago, and she said, 568 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 2: she's just trying to sound Australian. She's got the characters. 569 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 2: She said, I know somebody who lives in that area 570 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 2: and nobody. They don't call each other mate. And so 571 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,760 Speaker 2: now all these years later, whenever I hear anybody saying 572 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 2: oh thanks mate, or whatever, I think to myself, I 573 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 2: have this resemful See see, of course they do. It's 574 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 2: so ridiculous. What does it matter that this one person 575 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 2: I can't get her out of my head? Wow? 576 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: Fair enough. Now, I mentioned to you before we started 577 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: recording that I'm about a third of the way through 578 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: Apple's Never Fall, and when I'm interviewing someone that has 579 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: written their latest book, I'll always have finished it before 580 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: the interview, but I said to you, like, I mean, 581 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: I've been so looking forward to your next book to 582 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: come out because I've read all of your books and 583 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: I love them, and it's like, I just love the 584 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: process of savoring fiction and that's what I'm doing. But 585 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: I must say I'm loving it so far. So for 586 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: people that are keen to get their hands on Apple's 587 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: never before or consume anything that you have put into 588 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,719 Speaker 1: the world. What is the best way for people to 589 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 1: do that? 590 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 2: Oh, just wherever you buy books, a local bookshop that 591 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 2: you support, that's wonderful. But of course you can also 592 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 2: buy books online. My books are on Audible, my books 593 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: are on you can read on your kindles. So however 594 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 2: you buy your books. And my audio narrator is Caroline Lee, 595 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,959 Speaker 2: who I know people love, so I would like to 596 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 2: thank her because she adds to my reader's enjoyment. So 597 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: wherever you find your books, you should hopefully find a 598 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 2: Lean Mariatti book. 599 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: Fantastic, amazing. Well, I've just I've loved chatting with you. 600 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: I love everything that you put out into the world. 601 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for bringing so much joy 602 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: to my life. 603 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:26,280 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you, Amantha. Thank you. That's a lovely comic. 604 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I've enjoyed talking to you too, 605 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 2: I promise I really have. 606 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: Oh good, that makes me feel good. Thank you so 607 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: much for listening. I hope you found some inspiration in 608 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: some of Leanne's methods for how she approaches her work. 609 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: And if you are not a subscriber or follower of 610 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: How I Work, now might be the time to hit 611 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: that button wherever you listen to your podcast, because next 612 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 1: week we'll be continuing this theme of wellness at work, 613 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: which I've been at during the month of October, and 614 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: I will be talking to the ex CEO of Swiss Wellness, 615 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: radex Sally, about how he tested his DNA and how 616 00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: that really changed his behavior. How I Work is produced 617 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:19,640 Speaker 1: by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios. The 618 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, and thank you 619 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,279 Speaker 1: to Martin Nimba, who did the audio mix and makes 620 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: everything sound better than it would have otherwise. See you 621 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: next time.