1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Charles Duig is a Pulitzurprise winning journalist, New York Times 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: bestselling author who happens to be fascinated by how humans work, 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: from our habits to how we communicate. When he's not 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: writing bestsellers like the Power of Habit, which is a 5 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: personal favorite of mine and has been sitting on my 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: bookshelf for many years, and Smarter Fast at Better, he 7 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: is at home in Santa Cruz, California with his wife 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: and two sons, and based on what we are about 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: to talk about, my guess is that he's probably asking 10 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: them deep questions about their day, although fair warning, apparently 11 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: his kids sometimes tell him to stop trying out his 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: communication theories on them during dinner time. Charles wrote a 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: book called Supercommunicators. I've just finished reading it. Loved the book. 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: Doggie had far too many pages, colored in, far too 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: many pages, made copious notes, and it's already changed the 16 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: way that I'm talking with my family and engaging with them. 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Charles joins me on the Happy Families podcast today. What 18 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: a pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for reaching out, Chiles. 19 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: For having me. I really appreciate it, Charles. 20 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 1: I want to just kick straight on with some conversation 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: points about what you've brought up in your book Super Communicators. 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 1: You write about three types of conversations that people have, 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: practical conversations, emotional conversations, and social conversations. Can you walk 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: us through what these look like in general? But I 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: really want to get specific about kids because quite often 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: what I find is parents are having very different conversations 27 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: with their kids than the kids trying to have with 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: their parents. 29 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, And for me, the journey to this book 30 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: actually kind of started it at home because of conversations 31 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: with my wife and my kids. And I so my kids, 32 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 2: my kids are now thirteen and sixteen, almost fourteen and seventeen, 33 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: and I only have two. I know you have sex, 34 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 2: which is which is allure. 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: There's still time for you to catch up, Charles. Just 36 00:01:59,400 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: keep at it. 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: I'll let my wife. So, yeah, we would get into 38 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 2: this pattern. So, like you know, when they were a 39 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 2: little bit younger, they would they would come to tell 40 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 2: me about something, and I would assume that they were 41 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:13,679 Speaker 2: coming to tell me about it because they wanted to 42 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: be to solvent, right, because they their brother hit them, 43 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: or because they something happened at school, and I assumed 44 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 2: they were looking for my advice. I assumed, in other words, 45 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 2: that they wanted to have a practical conversation. But pretty 46 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 2: quickly what I realized, what all parents realize, is no, no, no, no. 47 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: When these children come to you, what they actually want 48 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: is they want to have an emotional conversation. And the 49 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 2: thing is that if what we've learned from neuroscience is 50 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 2: that if you're having different kinds of conversations at the 51 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 2: same time, you can't really hear each other. Right when 52 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: I'd come home from work and I would complain about 53 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,359 Speaker 2: my day and my wife would say, oh, you know, 54 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: why don't you take your boss out to lunch. You 55 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: guys get to know each other a little bit better, 56 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 2: I would get even more upset because I wanted to 57 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: have an emotional conversation. I want to tell her how 58 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: I felt, and she wanted to have a practical conversation. 59 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 2: She wanted to the problem. And those are both entirely 60 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 2: legitimate forms of communication. But when you're not having the 61 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 2: same kind of conversation at the same moment, you can't 62 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 2: connect with each other, you can't fully hear each other. 63 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: So you're exactly right when it comes to kids. Oftentimes, 64 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 2: the first thing we have to ask ourselves is what 65 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: kind of conversation is happening? And the way that we 66 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: do that is we look for certain words that are clues. Right, 67 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: are they describing their feelings. I feel upset or I 68 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 2: feel like that was really hard, or I'm a mad 69 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 2: or I'm frustrated. If they're using these feeling words, what 70 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: they're really telling us is I want to have an 71 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: emotional conversation. But if they come to us with very 72 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: sort of formulaic stuff like Dad, can I go to 73 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: the store? Dad? Can I do X? Dad? Why is 74 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: the sky blue? What we can listen for is that 75 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 2: they were having a practical conversation. They're in a practical mindset. 76 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: And then there's this social mindset, which is when we 77 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: have conversations about how we relate to each other or 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 2: society or the identities that are important to us. And 79 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: particularly with kids, whenever a kid says something about themselves, 80 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: I'm the kind of person who acts. I like to 81 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: why that's a social conversation. They're trying to tell us 82 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 2: how they see themselves. 83 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, that identity thing. When I listen to you describing that, 84 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,359 Speaker 1: and I think about what I learned from the book Supercommunicators. 85 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: Something that I've started to do explicitly in my conversations 86 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: with my wife and my children and even with friends 87 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: and colleagues and clients, is explicitly and clearly ask what 88 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: is it that's important to you here? By asking that question, 89 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm finding that they're telling me what it is that 90 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: they want. So my wife, Clytie will be telling me 91 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 1: about a challenge that she's experiencing, and I'll say, I'm 92 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: hearing what you're telling me, how do you how do 93 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: you want me to respond to you here? Like what 94 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: are you looking for here? And it felt clunky and 95 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: awkward to say it initially, but she looked at me. 96 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: Herrizonod up and she said, I just want you to 97 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:04,559 Speaker 1: understand and hug. 98 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: It's amazing, isn't it. We do the same thing. And 99 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: I deal with my kids when they come and they 100 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: like when they're complaining about their brother hitting them, I say, 101 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: do you want me just to know about this or 102 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: do you want me to help you figure out a 103 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: solution for that? I love And inevitably they say, I 104 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: just want you to know. I just want you to 105 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: know that he did it, which of course is great. 106 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: About think about how much effort we save with that question, though, 107 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: because when you know that they just want you to know, 108 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: you don't now have to storm into the living room 109 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: with all guns blazing and say that's it, I've had enough. 110 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: How many times have I told you? And the few 111 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: row that errupts from there. By simply knowing that they 112 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: just want you to know, you can calmly say, huh, okay, 113 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: well now I know, I'm so glad you told me. 114 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And there's a way that they teach 115 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: teachers to do this, particularly here in the US. They 116 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: teach them if if a student comes to you and 117 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: they have something important they want to talk about, the 118 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 2: first thing you should ask them is do you want 119 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: to be hugged? Do you want to be helped? Or 120 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 2: do you want to be heard, which, of course is 121 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: the three kinds of conversations right, the emotional, the practical, 122 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 2: and the social. And if you ask a kid that, 123 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: like do you want to be hugged helped to herd, 124 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: they know exactly what they want. They will tell you 125 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: right away. They'll say like, yeah, I need a hug 126 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: or no, no, no, I don't, I don't I don't need 127 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 2: you to help me with this. I just I just 128 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: want you to know what Jimmy said to me on 129 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 2: the on the playground. It's really important that we give 130 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: them agency to tell us what they want and need 131 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: out of a conversation, what kind of mindset their end, 132 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 2: because in doing so, we're actually teaching them to become 133 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 2: better communicators. 134 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: At the core of the work that I do, Charles, 135 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: I focus heavily on a theory that you may be 136 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: familiar with. It's called self determination theory. So yeah, research 137 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: is at Rochester University which Ryan and DC have spent 138 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: decades developing this profound theory. And at the very center 139 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: of that self determination theory is this concept of agency 140 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: or autonomy. People want to feel not that they are 141 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,919 Speaker 1: completely free and independent, but rather that they are volitional, 142 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: that they get to make choices in harmony with their 143 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: values and what their long term goals are. As you 144 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: describe that heard helped or hugged. So in Australia we 145 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: could never do that because teachers and a lot of 146 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: other hug students. However, let me digress. Some years ago 147 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 1: I began teaching in my seminars. It sort of as 148 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: an offhanded joke that when my wife is upset. The 149 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: best thing and every husband should do this. The best 150 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 1: thing you can do is say to your wife, do 151 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: you want me to be with you? Like do you 152 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: want do you want to hug? Or do you just 153 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: want some space? And it's that same concept, right, it's 154 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: recognizing this is a person who is unloading, who is 155 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: experiencing really big emotions. And there's something else that I 156 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: teach explicitly and ongoing then that is that when our 157 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: emotions are high, our intelligence is low. Intelligence kind of 158 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: vacates the building once our reptilian lower brain kicks in 159 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: and we get all emotional. Brene Brown talks about how 160 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: where emotional beings first, which means that when emotions take over, 161 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: it's like our intellect has been bound and gagged and 162 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: stuffed in the butt in the boot, and the emotions 163 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: are driving down the freeway. And when we when we 164 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: ask that question, when we pause and say, hey, do 165 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: you want do you want to be hugged or helped 166 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: or heard? Do you want to do you want to 167 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: do you want to minute on your own or whatever 168 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: it might be, I feel as though there's this it's 169 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: almost like we hand agency back to the child. Or 170 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: back to our spouse. 171 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 172 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 1: And they get to step out of the emotion and say, 173 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: what what is it that I really going back to 174 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: the initial premise of my first question, we go back 175 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: to this point where we say what is it that 176 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: I most want in this conversation? Profoundly, I think. 177 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: That's really smart and and and one thing that I 178 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: like about how we're discussing this is what we're doing, 179 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: is we're asking questions. So think about when you're in 180 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: a conversation. Oftentimes, when we're going over a conversation, preparing 181 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: for a conversation in our head, what we're focusing on 182 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: is what we want to say. Right, this is the 183 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 2: thing I really want to say. This is an important conversation. 184 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 2: I want them to understand extra Y or Z. But 185 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 2: of course you know that the in self determination theory, 186 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: this locus of can control is really important. Right. Is 187 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 2: the locus of control something that's forced on me I 188 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: do other Is it an external lookus of control where 189 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: people force things on me? Or is it internal where 190 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: I get to choose and I'm in control of myself 191 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: and this conversation and my destiny. And when we ask 192 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 2: someone a question, what we are doing is we are 193 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 2: handing them control of the conversation. That doesn't mean we're 194 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: giving it up altogether, right, That doesn't mean that we're 195 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 2: just that we're going to follow them no matter where 196 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: they go. But what we're showing them is, instead of 197 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,959 Speaker 2: just forcing you to listen to what I want to say, 198 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: I want us to control this conversation together. And when 199 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 2: we do that, that's when everyone suddenly achieves a sense 200 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: of psychological safety that lets us actually both agree and 201 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: disagree with each other. 202 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: I have a hypothesis by someone You've just said, this 203 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: idea of yeah, the idea of control. If you're trying 204 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: to control me, I take from that, I implicitly believe 205 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: that you don't trust my capacity as ability to resolve 206 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: a situation myself. You're stepping in and saying that you 207 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: need to be the unilateral arbiter of all things related 208 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: to this situation because you don't trust me. In other words, 209 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: you're judging me to be inferior or incompetent, or incapable, 210 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 1: or something like that. And the thought that I had 211 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: as you were describing that was that we often describe 212 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 1: the opposite of love to be hate, but My hypothesis 213 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: is that the opposite of love could be judgment. That is, 214 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: when when a person's feeling judged, they don't feel loved. 215 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: And by doing what you're describing, what we're actually my 216 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: sense is we're removing judgment from it by saying, hey, 217 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,559 Speaker 1: let's control this together, let's work on this as a 218 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: as a team. Let me empower you to work through this. 219 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: I believe in you, I trust you. 220 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And you had mentioned 221 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: before this concept of deep questions, and this gets exactly 222 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: to what you were just talking about, because there's an 223 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 2: interesting question which questions are the right questions to ask? 224 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 2: Why do some questions better than others and sort of 225 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: drawing people out? And what researchers have found is that 226 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: the most effective questions and conversations that would are known 227 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 2: as deep questions or questions that ask about your values 228 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: or your beliefs or your experiences. And that can sound 229 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as like 230 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, oh, oh, 231 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 2: what hospital do you work at? Saying oh, oh, what 232 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: made you decide to go to medical school? Great? What 233 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: do you like about being a doctor? When we ask 234 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: people how they see the world rather than the facts 235 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: about the world, what they're doing is exactly what you 236 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: just said. We're inviting them to be able to take 237 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: authority and control in that conversation, to share control with us, 238 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 2: and to shape how they believe we see them. And 239 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: there's nothing more trusting. There's nothing more trusting in this 240 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: entire world than asking someone a deep question. Right. It 241 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 2: doesn't mean I have to agree with you with whatever 242 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 2: you say, but what I say to you, Hey, I'm wondering, 243 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 2: how do you see the world? What do you make 244 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: of it? Here's an open canvas. Go ahead and paint 245 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: the picture that you think is best. You to help 246 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 2: me understand. It's a huge act of trust, and I 247 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 2: think we feel that. 248 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: The late Stephen Covey, author of Seven Habits Highly Effective People, 249 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: said it's a greater compliment to be trusted than to 250 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: be loved. And I feel like that's a really profound 251 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: way of demonstrating that by bringing people in and making 252 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: that happen. So here's what I'm hearing. Super communicators on 253 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 1: an agency, they withhold judgment, They ask deep questions. I 254 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: want to come back to some deep questions a little 255 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: bit later. But overarching, they understand the purpose of a conversation. 256 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: They understand whether it's a practical conversation or an emotional conversation, 257 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: or a social conversation, a problem solving, or a hugging 258 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: or an understanding a person kind of conversation. Just let 259 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: me change gears for a sec You talk about in 260 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: the book in one of the first couple of chapters, 261 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: this idea of neural entrainment. Fascinating idea that our brain 262 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: waves actually sync up during good conversations. So in my home, 263 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: the very best conversations that we have are either around 264 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: the dinner table or when a child is struggling and 265 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 1: engages with me so that we can work through her 266 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: having a hard time. And I feel that in trainment. 267 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: I genuinely there's something that happens in the interaction where 268 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 1: you can feel, hauh, we're in sync. 269 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 2: Now. 270 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: Can you describe what neural entrainment is and tell me 271 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: what does this tell us about the family dinner conversations, 272 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: the bedtime chats that we're having with our kids, and 273 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: how we can create more of this neural entrainment in 274 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: our discussions with our family. 275 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: It's really interesting, and this is one of the most 276 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: replicated and in some senses profound finding of the last 277 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: ten years in neuroscience. When we're in a conversation with 278 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: someone and when we and we're really understanding each other, 279 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: our bodies and our brains change, right, So without us 280 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 2: realizing it, our breath patterns will start to match each other, 281 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 2: our heart rates will start to match each other. If 282 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: we're in a similar lighted environment, even over a zoom 283 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 2: call like this are the dilation of our eyes will 284 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: begin to mirror each other, and inside our brain, if 285 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: you could look at people's thoughts, what you would see 286 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: is that as they have this conversation, their thoughts become 287 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: more and more similar. They look the same when you're 288 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: looking at those like little graphs that show how people 289 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 2: are thinking. And that kind of makes sense when you 290 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: think about it, because if I tell you about an 291 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 2: emotion I'm feeling, you actually feel that emotion a little bit, right, 292 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 2: Or if I tell you about an idea, you experience 293 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: that idea a little bit. So it would make sense 294 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 2: that what's going on inside my head is the same 295 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: thing that's going on inside your head. But what we've 296 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 2: learned is that as a product of evolution, because of 297 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 2: how our brain has evolved to make us great communicators 298 00:14:53,680 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: and humans are super communicators kind of naturally, that two 299 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 2: things happen. First of all, when our thoughts start to 300 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 2: become similar, we understand each other much better. We actually 301 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: can listen much better. It's not like as if we're 302 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: like you know, suddenly hearing different words from before, but 303 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: we're hearing all of the words and noticing all of 304 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: the words rather than getting distracted. So that's the first thing. 305 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: The second thing that happens is that there's often a 306 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: dopaminic release, so in a cannabi voids and dorphins. When 307 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: you have a great conversation you feel wonderful, it's because 308 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 2: your brain is actually releasing serotonin allowing you to feel 309 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 2: wonderful about that conversation. And the reason why is because 310 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 2: the basal ganglia, the part of the brain that creates habits, 311 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: it wants you to have good conversations. It wants you 312 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: to connect with other people. Throughout history evolution, people who 313 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: connect with other people tend to live longer and succeed more. 314 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: So there's been this evolutionary pressure for us to get 315 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: better and better better at communication, and as a result, 316 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 2: there's an actual neurochemical rewards signal when we connect with someone. 317 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm so engaged in what you're saying that I totally 318 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: lost trying to thought. 319 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 2: It's totally okay, it's kind of reconnected. The best conversations 320 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 2: the best kind of and this is actually a good point. 321 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 2: So the best conversations actually look like a mess, right, 322 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 2: Like if you were to transcribe the best conversations you've 323 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: ever had, Yeah, and look at that, the transcription would 324 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 2: look like a mess. Right When you talk to your 325 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: wife and you guys, really you're interrupting each other. You're 326 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: starting ideas without finishing them. You're like making these little 327 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: side comments because when you're in the moment, it's all 328 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 2: about that connection. It's not about saying things eloquently. It's 329 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: not about remembering what your next question is. It's about 330 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 2: being present. 331 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: As you described that, one of the one of the 332 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: great bug bess that I have when I listen back 333 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: to the Happy Families podcast is that I get so 334 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: excited about what we're talking about that I listened to Kylie, 335 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: who is my co host for most of our podcast episodes, 336 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: I interrupt her. I interrupt her all the time because 337 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: I want to jump in and I want to say this, 338 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: or I want to say that. And I kind of 339 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: beat myself up about that because it means to me 340 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: that I'm not being a great communicator. I'm certainly not 341 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: being a good listener. Something that you said in the book, though, 342 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: is that we need to not beat ourselves up so 343 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 1: much when there's interruptions going on, because there's a really 344 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 1: big upside to interruptions. 345 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 2: So let me ask you this. If I was to 346 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: ask Kayley whether she feels like you interrupt too much, 347 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: what would she say? 348 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: Probably? I do talk a little bit too much, and 349 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: I do talk over her from time to time, but 350 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: it's not in a male dominant way. I'm so into 351 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: what you're saying, and you've just reminded me of this 352 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: awesome thing, and I've got to tell you about it, 353 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: and it's so good. It's that kind of interruption. It's 354 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: like the interruptions around our dinner table at night, when 355 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: we're having our family conversations. It's so hard to get 356 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: a word in because, well, as you can imagine, with 357 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: six daughters, there's a lot of communication. There's a lot 358 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: of emotions, but there's so much interruption and no one 359 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: gets to really finish a full or a sentence, which 360 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: is infuriating in some ways, and yet it's delights. 361 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: Kind of wonderful. Yeah, it's because everyone's in the conversation. 362 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Everyone feels like they're participing. So you're exactly right. What 363 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: we know about interruptions is that interruptions are actually a 364 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: really good signal as long as they're going two ways. Right, 365 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 2: So if I always interrupt you and you never interrupt me, 366 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 2: then often what happens is that you are speaking far 367 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: less because you start saying something and I interrupt you, 368 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 2: and then I'm monologue for a while and you don't 369 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: interrupt me. And then finally you got a chance to 370 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 2: say something and you start saying something and then I 371 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: interrupt you again. Right, So the interruptions aren't the problem. 372 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 2: It's what's known as equality and conversational turn taking. So 373 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: equality and conversational turn taking is basically just this this 374 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 2: thing that they measure and experiments how much did each 375 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 2: person talk compare to everyone else. And it's not even 376 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: about like the number of words you said, it's not 377 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: even about the minutes you spent It's often about how 378 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: many times you piped up, because if one person is 379 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: interrupting and nobody else says, that person is going to 380 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: pape up a lot more frequently. But if everyone is 381 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 2: interrupting each other, if everyone says, oh my god, that's 382 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 2: such a good idea, well what about this, then it 383 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: feels like we have that equality and conversational turntaking, and 384 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: that is critical to making people, particularly a group of people, 385 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: feel like they're connected to each other. 386 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: Well, Kylie's still talking to me, so I'm going to 387 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: say that we've got a quality going just fine. 388 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 2: Charles. 389 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: I'm a really big believer that nobody wants to be fixed. 390 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: I've never had any of my children look at me 391 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: and say, Dad, it sounds like you've got a solution 392 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: to make me better, let me hear it. My wife 393 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: has never asked me, honey, why don't you fix me? 394 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: So that everything's just right? No one is ever begging 395 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: for us to fix them. Why do we implicitly desire 396 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: to fix other people? 397 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 2: So I'll note that this is not a universal condition, right, 398 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: There are there are some people, probably your wife, right 399 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: who who like when a kid brings a problem to them, 400 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: they just they know that, they like to just say, oh, 401 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, honey, that sounds really hard, rather than trying. 402 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: To fix it. Forward them okay one of those people. 403 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: What often happens is that we get habituated in a 404 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: certain kind of conversation. So one of the questions I 405 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 2: get asked a lot is like, do women and men 406 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: communicate differently? Do their brains work differently? Or women from 407 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 2: Mars and men are from venus or whatever it is. 408 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: And the answer is no. All the research shows men 409 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: and women communicate the same way, but they are often 410 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: habituated differently in their younger years. Right, conversations that are emotional. 411 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: Women tend to have more of them in their teenage years, 412 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: and as a result, they're just more comfortable with them. 413 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 2: Men oftentimes learn to have emotional conversations that seem dressed 414 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 2: up like practical conversation. I come to you and I 415 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,119 Speaker 2: say I've got a problem and you're doing X and 416 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: it's really impacting our budget. And what I'm really saying 417 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: is like, I'm really upset, and I need you to 418 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: hear that I'm upset. And the fact that I'm bringing 419 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 2: up all this practical language about budgets and problems. That's 420 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 2: actually just a disguise because I'm uncomfortable talking about emotions 421 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: and so I'm more comfortable posing it in the language 422 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,119 Speaker 2: of practicality. But what's really important about this is to 423 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 2: recognize that even though we have these habits, habits can 424 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 2: change very, very easily. And in fact, one of the 425 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 2: things about habits is that they are very delicate. They're 426 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 2: like gossamer threads. Right. Once you recognize that a habit 427 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 2: is there, it takes the smallest amount of effort to 428 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 2: disrupt it. And that's why, for instance, asking these questions 429 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: you want to be hugged, helped to heard, you know, 430 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 2: asking deep questions. That's one of the reasons they're so 431 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: powerful is because they short circuit our habit in our head, 432 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 2: which is, my kid came to me with an issue, 433 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 2: they want me to fix it. I'm going to tell 434 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: them how to fix it. When we ask that question. 435 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 2: As much as we're asking them what do you really 436 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 2: care about, we're also doing a service to ourselves to say, oh, habit, 437 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 2: let me like put the brakes on really quickly. Let's 438 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: just take a step back before I respond automatically and 439 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: think through like what this kid really needs. 440 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: Yesterday had one of my daughters come to me really 441 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: struggling with something, and I so badly wanted to fix it. 442 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: I so badly wanted to fix her. I so badly 443 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: wanted to step in and say, well, I think blah 444 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah, if you just do this. I mean, 445 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: I've got a PhD in psychology, i know how to 446 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: be useful, I've got decades more life experience. There's all 447 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: of these reasons why I can simply step in and 448 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: make the problem go away. But thinking about our conversation 449 00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: that was scheduled for today, I paused, and I looked 450 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: at her, and I put my hand in hers and 451 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: really softly just said, well, that sounds really tough. And 452 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: it was just this gorgeous moment where she leant into 453 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: me and she gave me a really big hug, and 454 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,120 Speaker 1: after she hugged me, she said, I love you, Dad, 455 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: and whooped. Why a super communicator, And it was like 456 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 1: the problem was fixed, it was solved, and all I 457 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: had to say was, Wow, that sounds really tough. It 458 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: was well and gorgeous. 459 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 2: And the best example of this. I love that story because, like, 460 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 2: if you think back to the conversations you had with 461 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,600 Speaker 2: your parents, or I think back to the conversations I 462 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 2: had with my parents. There are very few conversations that 463 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 2: stand out in my mind where my dad gave me 464 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 2: a piece of advice and I was like, gosh, darn it, 465 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 2: he's right, everything right. It might have happened. It probably 466 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: did happen, but I have managed to forget all of them. 467 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 2: But the conversations I remember with my dad were the 468 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: ones where either I told him how I was feeling, 469 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,679 Speaker 2: or he asked me something and I said something in 470 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: response that kind of surprised me. We tend to remember 471 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 2: the conversations that are connection as opposed to just information exchange, 472 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 2: and it's really hard. It's really hard to connect when 473 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,080 Speaker 2: like one person and has all the answers and one 474 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 2: person has all the questions. That's not a meeting of equals, 475 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: and as a result, it's very hard to intrigue with 476 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: each other. 477 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: That is just beautiful. I love as you said that 478 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: I reflected on the conversations that I've had with my 479 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 1: parents that mean the most to me, and it's exactly 480 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: the same. It's those connection conversations. Now, Charles, you you 481 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: slay a sacred cow in some ways in this book. 482 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: For years, I've been teaching about the importance of perspective taking. 483 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: A wonderful research from the sixties and seventies. Martin Hoffman 484 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: talks all about the power of perspective taking, and then 485 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: we've got people like him Ginnott, and we've got John Gotman. 486 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: All these people teach about how we've got to stand 487 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: in the shoes of another person and take their perspective 488 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: to communicate well and be empathic. But you suggest in 489 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: Super Communicators that perspective taking can sometimes backfire, and you 490 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: make a recommendation for what to do instead. This is 491 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: not to discount the validity or usefulness of taking bit 492 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: to hot life, that it doesn't always work. Can you 493 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: describe how it might be our undoing in some circumstances 494 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 1: and what you suggest to do instead. 495 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And there's been a number of researchers who 496 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 2: over looked at this Nick Epley at the University of Chicago, 497 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: a number of them particularly looking at at prejudice and 498 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: how we fight prejudice. You're exactly right, perspective taking hand work. 499 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: But it assumes that I have the ability to put 500 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: myself into your shoes in a way that is accurate. Right, So, 501 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 2: if you and I are talking about parenting and you 502 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: mentioned some parenting problem that you have, I can probably 503 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 2: stand in your shoes and see how you saw the situation. 504 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: But if, on the other hand, we were talking about 505 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: what it's like to live in Gaza, and I'm an 506 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 2: American who's never been to the Middle East, it's ridiculous 507 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 2: to say that like, perspective taking is gonna work. I 508 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 2: have no idea what that's like. I can't imagine myself 509 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: into that person's shoes, or to imagine myself as an Israeli. Right, 510 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: How am I going to figure out how to take 511 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 2: the perspectives of these two people who see things so 512 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: differently than I do and as each other, without having 513 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: any basis to put myselves in their shoes, to imagine 514 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: what it would be like to be them. And so 515 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 2: into this breach, these researchers have coming forward and they said, look, 516 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: perspective taking work sometimes, but there are times when it 517 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 2: doesn't work, when when it's just the experience that someone 518 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 2: is having is too foreign, too alien to your own 519 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 2: experience to actually it's presumptuous to assume that you know 520 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: what it's like for them. And in that case, instead 521 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 2: of doing perspective taking, what we should do is perspective getting. 522 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: Just ask some a question, Ask them like, what is 523 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 2: it like to live in Gaza right now? What is 524 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 2: it like to be an Israeli citizen right now? I 525 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 2: know that you guys see this thing differently. I really 526 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: want to understand how both of you see it. We 527 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: don't have to guess what it's like to stand in 528 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 2: their shoes. We can ask them to tell us what 529 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: it's like to stand in their shoes, and then when 530 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,200 Speaker 2: we ask follow up questions, we start to find ways 531 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 2: to relate to their experience. And so this isn't to 532 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: say that we shouldn't teach perspective taking, but perspective getting. 533 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:15,160 Speaker 2: Teaching people to ask questions, particularly hard questions, is really important. 534 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: Charles, Let's change up the pace for a moment and 535 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: do a lightning round. 536 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 2: Sure. 537 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: The idea of a lightning round, as I'm sure you know, 538 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: is we could spend half an hour in each of 539 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: these questions. By the way, but just the first thing 540 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,359 Speaker 1: that pops into your head as I asked the questions. 541 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: We'll see how we go. First question, favorite question to 542 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: ask your kids at dinner. 543 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: I asked them, what was the most surprising thing that 544 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: happened that day or the most interesting. 545 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 1: Huh, okay, most surprising thing that you've learned. As you've 546 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: written this book about communicating with children or teens. 547 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 2: How good we are at it? You know. One of 548 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: the theories of the book is, and this is held 549 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 2: up for the research, we are all super communicators at 550 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: one time or another, and oftentimes becoming a consistent supercommunicator 551 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 2: is just about learning to listen to our instincts and 552 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: learning how conversations work. But if you think about it, 553 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: parents have meaningful conversations with their kids all the time, 554 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: and that's kind of amazing because besides their genetics, oftentimes 555 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: they have nothing in common. 556 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: I was really surprised by that answer. Question number three. 557 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: Best way to start a difficult conversation with your spouse 558 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: or partner. 559 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, the best way, and again the science backs us up, 560 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 2: is to start by saying, this is going to be 561 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 2: an awkward conversation, and I apologize in advance that it's 562 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 2: going to be awkward, and actually the awkwardness is part 563 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 2: of the reason I want to have it with you. 564 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: And I might say the wrong thing, because sometimes like 565 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 2: the gap between my brain and my lips is too big, 566 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: and I hope you'll forgive me. And if you say 567 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 2: the wrong thing, I promise I'll forgive you, like I'll 568 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: give you a chance to like rewind the tape and 569 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: say it a little bit better. When we do that, 570 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 2: when we acknowledge the awkwardness, when we give each other 571 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 2: the grace to make mistakes, we're lowering the temperature, and 572 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: that's critical. 573 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: I recommend the same approach when talking about tricky topics 574 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: with children. I want to have one of those awkward 575 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: conversations that some people really struggle with with their parents 576 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: and children. And the kids are suddenly a little bit intrigued, 577 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: but also defenses are down. It's like, Okay, this could 578 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: be awkward, but this is obviously important. 579 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,719 Speaker 2: That's in the car. When I'm in the car with 580 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: my kids, I often will say, like, okay, let's talk 581 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: about puberty, because they go da, they're not going anywhere. 582 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: The security the dolls are locked, do you know what? 583 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: Like it takes like thirty seconds for them to be like, 584 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 2: I do have a question. 585 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 1: Actually, what's the worst communication happened that you had to unlearn? 586 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: I mean you say that this book was about you 587 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: learning to be a better communicator. 588 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: One of the things that's most toxic to a conversation 589 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 2: is when we control, try to control the other person 590 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: in the conversation. And as you know, there's this there's 591 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: this thing that happens in when we're talking to spouses 592 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: called kitchen sinking. We start arguing about one thing, and 593 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: suddenly we're arguing about everything. Right, we're not just where 594 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: we're going to go out for Christmas, but like your 595 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: mom hates me, and I wish that if you made 596 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 2: more money, we could go on nicer trips like you're 597 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: just And that's toxic. That is that is a clear 598 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 2: sign that something is wrong in a relationship. And I 599 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: think the reason why we do this kitchen thinking is 600 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 2: because we want to try and control the other person. 601 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: We want to try and control what the conversations about. 602 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 2: We want to try and control control what you're allowed 603 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: to say and what you're not allowed to say, and 604 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 2: whether you're on the defense or the offense. And when 605 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 2: we change that and we say, look, I have the 606 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: sensing to control things, but instead of trying to control you, 607 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to control the environment with you like, like, 608 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: let's have this conversation, you know, not at two o'clock 609 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 2: in the morning, Let's wait until we're both well rested 610 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 2: and have it at nine in the morning. Or I'm 611 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 2: going to control I'm going to I with you. I 612 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: want to control the boundaries of the conversation, Like we're 613 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: going to talk about where we're going on holiday, We're 614 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 2: not going to talk about moms, We're not going to 615 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: talk about money. When we share control and this is 616 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 2: something I feel like I learned to do better. What 617 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: we're really doing is we're empowering the other person to 618 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 2: have a conversation with us. So it doesn't it's not 619 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 2: an argument, it's a it's a cooperation. 620 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: Just a few more. What's your gout to phrase when 621 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: you've messed things up with your family? 622 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean usually just say I'm sorry. 623 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 2: I try and apologize to my kids a lot because 624 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: I want to show them that that making mistakes is 625 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 2: part of life. And so yeah, so I just say like, hey, Ali, 626 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry, Like you asked me that question, I 627 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: was short with you and that that was not appropriate 628 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: and I'm sorry I did that. 629 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,479 Speaker 1: Charles, what's the most unexpected place that you've had a 630 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: great conversation. 631 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I mean all the time, like in 632 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 2: an Uber, Like sometimes you have these conversations with Uber 633 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 2: drivers and like and some and it's okay not to 634 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 2: have a conversation with Uber driver. Sometimes you get an 635 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: Uber you just want to check your phone. But sometimes 636 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 2: you have this conversation with an Uber driver, and like, 637 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: they have these amazing life stories, right, they like cross 638 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 2: the oceans and send money back to their families, and 639 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 2: you're part of something important by connecting with them. 640 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: I really really struggle with those conversations. I get off 641 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: an airplane, jump in the uber or or the cab 642 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: and think, ah, can I just put my headphones on 643 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: and pretend? But as you've said, some wonderful and enriching 644 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: conversations have been the result of being willing to engage 645 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: with another person. I love that. 646 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: And you absolutely can just put your headphones on, like 647 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: there's no obligation of a conversation. But I think oftentimes 648 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 2: we hesitate to have that conversation because we're worried about 649 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: how it's going to end. We're worried about how we're 650 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: going to like tie it off, or or what if 651 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: they like, start telling me some story and I'm bored 652 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 2: and I want to do something else. And yet yet 653 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 2: that all the research shows those worries are overblown in 654 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,959 Speaker 2: our mind, because every single person who has those worries 655 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 2: they have managed to curtail a conversation pretty effectively and easily. 656 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: Yeah right. Sometimes it's just a matter of being like, oh, 657 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 2: that's so interesting, I gotta I gotta check my phone now, 658 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: so I'm gonna I'm gonna do that, or sometimes just 659 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: like being like, oh, good, good, good to hear you know, 660 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: and you stop asking questions and the music comes on. 661 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 2: We all know how to stop conversations if we want 662 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: to stop a conversation, it's but we sometimes we forget 663 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 2: that we know how to do that, and it's the 664 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 2: awkwardness of it that sets us off. 665 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: Two more questions for the Lightning Round. Number one, Best 666 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: conversation starter at a party? 667 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 2: Oh so, I think the best one depends what kind 668 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 2: of party you're at. My favorite question is when is 669 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 2: the last time you cried in front of another person? 670 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: Oof? Yeah, you talk about that in the book. Yeah, 671 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: I thought to myself, I don't know if I'm courageous 672 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: enough to ask somebody that I've just you know it 673 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: that question. 674 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 2: Decide that it's going to be the third question you 675 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: ask someone, and by the time you ask it, it's 676 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 2: going to feel so natural because those first two questions, 677 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: those first two questions are going to be questions that 678 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 2: are real questions. 679 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: Last one, what's the most powerful question that someone has 680 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: ever asked you? 681 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a really good question. I don't know. I 682 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: don't know, because if a question is asked in the 683 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: right spirit, they're all powerful, right, Like, I don't know. 684 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 2: Maybe when like one of my parents asked me why 685 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: I wanted to propose to my wife or what I 686 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: liked about her? But that's not it. That's it. This 687 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 2: was in college. That's not a question that like was 688 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,440 Speaker 2: a deep question for them. We were literally in the 689 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 2: car and my mom was like, oh, yeah, tell me 690 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 2: about telling me about Liz. What's you like? What do 691 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 2: you like about her? And like it was at that 692 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,919 Speaker 2: moment that I was like, oh, oh, I'm in love 693 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: with her. I'm going to marry this person. 694 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 1: I have two quick responses to that. First of all, Yeah, 695 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: I was with some friends in Sydney and they were 696 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: asking me what I loved about Kylie, And it was 697 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 1: that same question that made me realize that I needed 698 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: to go home and propose that day. 699 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,479 Speaker 2: Really, yeah, it. 700 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: Was literally just that question of what do you like 701 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:44,759 Speaker 1: about her? And the more I answered the question, the 702 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: more I thought, why are we not already married? I mean, 703 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,800 Speaker 1: it was really that profound and that powerful. And I 704 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: guess the follow up to that is you mentioned that 705 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: this was a long time ago. Kylie and I are 706 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: about to celebrate our twenty seventh wedding anniversary, congratulations. And 707 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: I was telling someon about that just the other day, 708 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: and that person looked at me and asked, so sincerely 709 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: and so beautifully, what do you think you've done to 710 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 1: have such a happy marriage for twenty seven years? And 711 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: I sat there and I almost started weeping as I 712 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 1: thought about the beauty of the relationship that we share, 713 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: but also the just the I loved the question. I 714 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: just wanted to sort of sink into that person's arms 715 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,840 Speaker 1: and say, thank you so much for asking. Let's just 716 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: talk about relationships and let me tell you about Clylie. 717 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: For the next hour or two, it was, Oh, I 718 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: just wanted to open up everything to this person because 719 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,800 Speaker 1: it felt like such a deep and vulnerable question. 720 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 2: Well, and I think that gets that so beautifully illustrates that. 721 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 2: Sometimes we say, like, what's the best question, right, We're 722 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 2: looking for that magic question, We're looking for that magic answer. 723 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 2: But actually, any deep question is the perfect question if 724 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 2: it's asked with the great spirit, if it's asked to 725 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 2: someone who's ready to respond and connect with you, if 726 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: you show them that you're listening by sharing of your 727 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: self and not judging them but instead allowing them to 728 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 2: be vulnerable and being vulnerable yourself, any question can be 729 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 2: the best question if we allow ourselves. It's what happens 730 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,879 Speaker 2: after we ask the question that matters much much more. 731 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: The Lightning round has evolved into a regular conversation again, 732 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: which happens all the time. But our time is starting 733 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: to run really short, and there are two more questions 734 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: that I want to discuss with you. The first one 735 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: comes from one of my favorite There were three parts 736 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: of the book that I loved the most, but one 737 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: of those parts was on page ninety seven, where you 738 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: describe how shallow questions can become deep. Now, we've referenced 739 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,919 Speaker 1: deep questions a number of times, and we've just talked 740 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: about one of those a moment ago. You've talked about 741 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: how these deep questions are going to create better connection, 742 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 1: and I want to hit you with a handful of standard, 743 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: shallow questions that we often ask our children. Sure I 744 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:54,320 Speaker 1: love it, and get you to give me a deeper, 745 00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: more connective version. This is the really practical stuff, right, 746 00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: How do we deepen questions like how was school today? 747 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,800 Speaker 2: What was the most surprising thing that happened at school today? 748 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,880 Speaker 2: What was the best thing that happened to you at 749 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: school today? 750 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: It's such a slight tweak and even if they look 751 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,280 Speaker 1: at you and say nothing, that opens up more conversation, right, right, right. 752 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: And as long as we change it up right, like 753 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 2: what's the worst thing that happened today? What did someone 754 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 2: say in class that was like the weirdest thing you've 755 00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 2: ever heard? 756 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: Charles? In our family, we have a series of values, 757 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: things that we just prioritize in terms of the way 758 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: we interact with others, and so our questions, either at 759 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: the dinner table or as we're discussing school, our questions 760 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: will often revolve around those values. So we'll say, who 761 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: were you kind to today? Or how did you show 762 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: determination and perseverance in the face of adversity and challenge. 763 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: We'll ask those questions and the children's sometimes they've grown 764 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: and say, but more often than not we get really great. 765 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 1: They're just deeper questions. 766 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 2: And I'll mentioned something I asked my kids. It's very 767 00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 2: much in keeping with this is rather than asking them 768 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 2: like how's Jasper? What's going on with Jasper? I like 769 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 2: to ask my kids like, what do you admire about Jasper? 770 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: It seems like you really like them, Like what do 771 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 2: you admire about them? Right? And then suddenly you're empowering 772 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: them to tell you how they see the world. 773 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: Here's another one, why didn't you clean your room? 774 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes when you ask that question, you you're not actually 775 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: looking for a conversation. 776 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 3: You're just like, you're just looking to send a message. 777 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 3: I just want yeah, and that's okay, that's okay. But 778 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 3: a better way to do it if you do want 779 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 3: to have a conversation is I know that the cleaning 780 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,560 Speaker 3: is important to me, and you told me it's important 781 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 3: to you. What's the thing that's stopping you from keeping 782 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,160 Speaker 3: your room clean? Let's let's let's analyze this. 783 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: Okay, I have two more of these ones. What do 784 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: you want for dinner? Again, this is a very practical, 785 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: and my parent really cares, like, we're so sick of 786 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: thinking every day about what we need to do for dinner. 787 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's got to be a better way that 788 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: we can ask this question. 789 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,839 Speaker 2: So this is how I do it at home. I say, 790 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 2: if you could have anything for dinner, any thing on earth, 791 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,839 Speaker 2: but you're you're deciding this in the future because you're 792 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,080 Speaker 2: looking back and seeing what you should eat, what would 793 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 2: you choose? And it never really they say ice cream? Right, 794 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 2: I'm like, five years from now, do you think that, like, 795 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 2: you're you're gonna really wish that you had ice cream tonight? No, 796 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: I guess five years from now, I wish that we 797 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 2: had some broccoli and then some ice cream. So the 798 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,399 Speaker 2: variety is the spice of life in this. Yeah. 799 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you could have your last meal and it 800 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: was to night, what would you choose? That kind of thing. 801 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great one, right, all right. 802 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: And the last one that I wanted to ask is 803 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: just this is another tricky one because as parents were 804 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,839 Speaker 1: so functionally oriented, it's so much about getting things done. 805 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: It's so often practical, but a question around are you 806 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: ready for your test? How would you deepen that or 807 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: how would you improve that question? 808 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 2: You know, we think about this a lot because we 809 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 2: work with our kids and they're in school, and we 810 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time talking to them about how 811 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: do you feel all about the test that's coming up, 812 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 2: Like how do you feel about the work you've done, 813 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: how do you feel about the test tomorrow? Do you 814 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: how do you think you're going to feel afterwards? Feel? 815 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 2: And in part that's because it's a little bit different, 816 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,400 Speaker 2: but also because that's actually what we're supposed to be doing, right, 817 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:21,320 Speaker 2: We're supposed to be teaching them this internal compass about 818 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 2: where they can rely on their feelings to tell them 819 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: whether they're prepared or not, or to tell them whether 820 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 2: they should be anxious or not, and if they're feeling anxious, 821 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 2: to try and figure out why and do something to 822 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 2: relieve it. 823 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:37,239 Speaker 1: I love that, Charles. For a couple of decades now, 824 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: I've been talking to people about the Harvard Study of 825 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,880 Speaker 1: Adult Development, otherwise known as the Grant Study, one of 826 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: the longest running, if not the longest running study of 827 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: human development and flourishing and well being in the history 828 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: of the world. It's it's spoken about by so many 829 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: people in so many different contexts. In the last chapter 830 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: of Supercommunicators, you put a perspective on the Grant study 831 00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: that kept me riveted. It was my favorite part of 832 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: the book, and not by a little bit. 833 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 2: I just thank you. 834 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,879 Speaker 1: I loved it so much that I pulled my whole 835 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: family together and a couple of the kids had their 836 00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,399 Speaker 1: friends over, and I said, I don't care, everyone around 837 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: the dining table now, and. 838 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 2: I read them. 839 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: I read them the entire final chapter out loud for 840 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: about thirty or forty minutes, and we talked about it 841 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: as we went through. I loved how you wrapped up 842 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: this well. 843 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: Thank you. That's so nice to be to say. 844 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 1: What I would love for you to do for everyone 845 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 1: who's participating in this podcast conversation is, let's wrap this 846 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: up with a discussion about why. Why does communication matter? 847 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: Why does the book matter? Why is the idea of 848 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: being a super communicator matter? How do you explain why 849 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: we need to communicate and connect better? 850 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: You know you mentioned that study, the Harvard Study of 851 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 2: Adult Development, and for those folks who aren't aware of it, 852 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 2: it's been going on for almost eighty years now. Researchers 853 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 2: have followed around thousands of people trying to figure out basically, 854 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 2: what are the things that make you happier and healthier 855 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: and more accessful. However, you define success into your old age. 856 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 2: And they had all these theories, right, They've done at Harvard, 857 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 2: so they're like, well, if you go to Harvard, you're 858 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:08,840 Speaker 2: definitely going to be happier when you get older. And 859 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 2: it turns out that's not true. If you're married and 860 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 2: you stay married and even if it's bad marriage, you 861 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 2: don't get divorced, you're going to be happy and successful. Nope, 862 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: that's not true either. The researchers basically found only one 863 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,239 Speaker 2: thing that could predict people's happiness, health, and success at 864 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 2: age sixty five, and that was having at least a 865 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 2: handful of close relationships at age forty five, which means, 866 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 2: of course, that you've had those relationships for a while 867 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 2: and that you're going to continue to have them for 868 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,280 Speaker 2: a while. And I think this gets to why communication 869 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 2: is so important. We are a social creatures. We are 870 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:48,839 Speaker 2: a social species. Our brains literally have evolved to make 871 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,800 Speaker 2: a supercommunicators. If you think about it, communication is our superpower. 872 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,280 Speaker 2: It's the thing that puts us above every other species. 873 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 2: That's the thing that allows us to build families and 874 00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 2: villages and towns and cities, aircraft carriers and game boxes. 875 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:08,680 Speaker 2: Communication is at the core of how we experience life 876 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 2: and when we connect with other people. When we have 877 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: other people who it's easy to communicate with, who we 878 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 2: communicate with on a regular basis, who we have those 879 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 2: meaningful conversations. It is the thing that only brings our 880 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,240 Speaker 2: life meaning. It literally makes us healthier, we live longer. 881 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 2: When we do that, we get exposed to opportunities we 882 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,600 Speaker 2: wouldn't have known about otherwise, and so we end up 883 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: being more successful. Communication and connection is everything, and for 884 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 2: anyone who has it or who doesn't have it, they 885 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:37,800 Speaker 2: know that. 886 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,680 Speaker 1: Super communicate is how to unlock the secret Language of Connection. 887 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,400 Speaker 1: Is the book compelling storytelling, powerful insights. I loved it. 888 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: Charles Dewick, Thank you for communicating and connecting with us 889 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 1: on the Happy Families podcast today. 890 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. This is a lot of fun. 891 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from 892 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,680 Speaker 1: Bridge Media. If you like the podcast, can we invite 893 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: you to take twenty seconds out of your day. It's 894 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: literally that quick twenty seconds. Leave us a rating and review. 895 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: We like the five star ones the best by the 896 00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: way they genuinely help people to find the show and 897 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: make their family happier. Resources and ideas to help your 898 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: family thrive are available at happy families dot com dot 899 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: au