1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Already and this this is the Daily This is the 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: Daily OS. 3 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense. Good morning and welcome to 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,440 Speaker 2: the Daily OS. It's Tuesday, the twenty fifth of March. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:19,960 Speaker 3: I'm Zara, I'm Sam. 6 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: Earlier this month, the Coalition announced it once public servants 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: in the office five days a week. That's, of course, 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 2: if it wins the next election. Then over the weekend, 9 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Anthony Aberzi came out swinging against the proposal, 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: saying that working from home is important for flexibility, women 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,199 Speaker 2: in the workplace and the economy. In today's podcast, we're 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: going to take you through what the coalition is proposing 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 2: and some of the criticisms that the government has leveled since. 14 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 3: Zara. We first heard of working from home as an 15 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 3: election campaign issue when the Coalition announced its plans to 16 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 3: make public servants work from the office. Yeah, tell me 17 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: about election commitment. 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. So it was earlier this month and the coalition 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 2: announced that if it wins the election, it expects all 20 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,639 Speaker 2: public servants to work from the office five days a week. 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: At the time, Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume described the 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 2: current work from home arrangements for federal public service workers 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 2: as unsustainable. 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 3: And So by public service workers, you mean people who 25 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 3: work for government agencies, right. 26 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So people that are working for the federal 27 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: Department of Health, Defense, Education, among other things. We're talking 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: about three hundred and sixty five thousand people when we 29 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: talk about the public servants in this story. So just 30 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 2: to give you a sense of who would be impacted 31 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 2: by this potential policy, the Coalition has spent quite a 32 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: bit of time talking about the public service. This isn't 33 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: a one off. They have made the public service a 34 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 2: kind of election issue for themselves. Last month they vowed 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: to cut wasteful government spending and that included the number 36 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: of people who work in the public service. Just quickly 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: to connect those two things when they say wasteful government 38 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: spending and then connect it to the public service, we're 39 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: talking there about the fact that public servants are taxpayer funded. 40 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: So back to the work from home announcement. The most 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: recent Australian Public Service survey showed that sixty one percent 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: of public servants worked away from the office at least 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: some of the time in twenty twenty four. So that's 44 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 2: a majority have worked at some point away from the 45 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: office some of the time. In this context, the Coalition 46 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 2: said as I led with that it once works in 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: the office every day of the week now At the time, 48 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 2: Opposition Leader Peter Dunnen said that Australian taxpayers expect government 49 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: employees to be working as hard as they are. People 50 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: refusing to go back to work in Canberra is not 51 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: acceptable and. 52 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 3: We've seen similar moves from private companies across Australia who 53 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: have said that they want to increase productivity and that's 54 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 3: why they're asking people to come back into the physical 55 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 3: Is the Coalition using the same argument in putting forward 56 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 3: this idea. 57 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 2: I mean, essentially, yeah, it's exactly the same idea. The 58 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: policy was first announced by Shadow Finance Minister Jane Hume 59 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 2: in a speech to the Menzies Center, and I was 60 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: reading through that speech and just pulled out a few 61 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 2: key quotes there. She said that working from home has 62 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 2: become a right that is creating inefficiency. She also cited 63 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: a recent report from Stanford that claimed that after working 64 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: from home arrangements were put in place, productivity fell by 65 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: about twenty percent. She didn't go into the kind of 66 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,240 Speaker 2: technicalities of that research, so we don't know particularly what 67 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: workforce it's talking about. There. She also, as you said, 68 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: highlighted the fact that other big Aussie companies, including NAB 69 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: and CBA, have instructed their staff to return to the office. 70 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: So she was saying there that the government wouldn't be 71 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: an outlier if it were to have this proposal come 72 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: into fruition. And I do just want to clarify before 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: we go any further that she did say that there 74 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: could be exceptions for people coming into the office. She 75 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: said that if the working from home arrangements work for 76 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: the employee's department, the team, and the individual, that they 77 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: would be willing to allow for that to happen. 78 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 3: So the coalition's position is really clear. What about the government, 79 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 3: how have they responded, you said. Anthony Aberenezi responded to 80 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: this policy over the weekend. What did he say? 81 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's fair to say this is one 82 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: of those times where we aren't seeing bipartisanship. I think 83 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 2: a lot of the time we have an announcement by 84 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 2: either the government or the coalition and then the other 85 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 2: kind of matches it. That's sort of what happens during 86 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 2: a campaign period. That's not what's happening here. This kind 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: of light and day between the two parties positions. On Sunday, 88 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 2: in a press conference, Anthony Albernesi defended working from home. 89 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 2: Here's a bit of what he said. 90 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: This is an advantage in modern families that have enabled 91 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: them to take advantage of it. It is also meant 92 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: for working families where both parents are working, they're able 93 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 1: to deal with those issues of working from home has 94 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: enabled them to work full time and therefore it has 95 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: increased workforce participation. 96 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 2: So clearly they're Labour coming down hard on the other side, 97 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 2: advocating for work from home options continuing to be available 98 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: for the public service and also for kind of Aussies. 99 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: Across the country. 100 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. The government's criticism of the opposition's policy has broadly, 101 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 2: i'd say, been from two main angles. The first is 102 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: the impact on women and the second is the economic 103 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 2: impact of cutting work from home options. 104 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,920 Speaker 3: Why don't we start then by talking about this impact 105 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: on women argument? 106 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So this criticism was really led by Labour's Minister 107 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: for Women, Katie Gallagher, who said when the Coalition's policy 108 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 2: was first announced that they again referring to the Coalition, 109 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: don't have women's interests at heart. They don't see it 110 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: as a central economic driver of growth. She went on 111 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 2: to say that clearly the Opposition have no idea about 112 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 2: how modern families operate, and that women have a right 113 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: to feel at risk. In response, we heard almost immediately 114 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: from Opposition leader Peter Dudden, who said that this policy 115 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: doesn't discriminate against people on the basis of gender, and 116 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 2: he suggested that there were plenty of job sharing arrangements 117 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 2: available for women who couldn't be in the office five 118 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:21,239 Speaker 2: days a week. 119 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's Labour's argument around the impact on women. 120 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 3: But then another issue there highlighting is the economic impact. 121 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: I found this one really interesting. So basically over the 122 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: weekend Labor released new modeling that's just numbers that they 123 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: said shows that Ozzie's would be worse off financially if 124 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: they couldn't work from home. So let me walk you 125 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: through it. According to this analysis, again by Labor, that 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: needs to be said, the Coalition's plan would cost the 127 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 2: average worker up to an extra four nine hundred and 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: seventy six dollars a year because of the cost of 129 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 2: transport and parking. 130 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 3: They were forced to go to the office five days 131 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: a week. 132 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: Correct, So they're saying that if you work from home 133 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: then you're not paying for the commute, inn you're not 134 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: paying for a parking spot if that's how you get 135 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 2: into work, and that if you have to do those things, 136 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: you as the employee, will be worse off than if 137 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: you were able to work from home. Labor also claimed 138 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: that commuters would have to spend an extra two hours 139 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 2: additionally in the car each week, or around ninety seven 140 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: hours a year if they were required to be in 141 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:28,760 Speaker 2: the office every day of the week. 142 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 3: Which would probably be good for podcasting. 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, so listening to this podcast. 144 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 3: Well, it is an interesting angle given the economic argument 145 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 3: that we normally engage with on this topic is on 146 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 3: the other side of things, right. 147 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was really surprised to read this because, as 148 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: you said, usually the economic argument is used to justify 149 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: bringing people back to work, not keeping them at home. 150 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 2: I remember last year Billy and I did a podcast 151 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: about the New South Wales government wanting to implement something 152 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: similar and at the time there was a lot of 153 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: talk about how it could reinviger rate Sydney's CBD. That's 154 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 2: because at the time some businesses were saying that they'd 155 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: lost up to twenty five percent of profit on Fridays 156 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: compared to pre pandemic levels. It's because the after work 157 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: bev Regino was not happening. When you're working from home, 158 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: you're not going into the city and things like office 159 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: spaces were becoming vacant at a rapid rate. And so 160 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: that really dominated a lot of the announcement as to 161 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: why the New South Wales government wanted New South Wales 162 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: public servants back into the office. 163 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 3: And obviously that comes from you know, business groups and 164 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: the businesses in the city who not just want the 165 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: drinks after work, but the coffee in the morning and 166 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 3: the cleaning of offices. I mean, so many businesses attached exactly. 167 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 2: But I guess for the federal government there's different jurisdiction, 168 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: there's different kind of things that they have power over, 169 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: and labor has as I said, kind of whittled it 170 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 2: down to these two key areas of criticism. 171 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: And I think what's really interesting about having this debate 172 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 3: as an election topic, it sounds like, is that there 173 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,079 Speaker 3: is for most people point to relate to it really closely. Yeah, 174 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 3: I mean this is a discussion about setting the tone 175 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 3: of how government sees flexible work. I mean, it just 176 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 3: affects public servants at the moment, But. 177 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 2: I mean public servants a kind of the only workers 178 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 2: who can be affected by a government ruling like this 179 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 2: if you were for a private company and it's come 180 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: down from your private company, not from the government. But 181 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: you're right, it's a really interesting tone and precedent. 182 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 3: And we've previously pulled our audience on this topic. What 183 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: was the response like from TDA readers. 184 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we asked them, I believe when the new 185 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: South Wales government announcement was first tabled, and at the time, 186 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: ninety percent of respondents to our pole said that office 187 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: policies should be hybrid so that they allow for both 188 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 2: work from home and in the office, which is as 189 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 2: we know what happens in most workplaces now. Only six 190 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: percent of respondents said office policies should be a mandate 191 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 2: to work in the office full time. It's quite a 192 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: low percentage there. We then also went on to ask 193 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 2: them if they would reconsider working for a company if 194 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: they were required to always be in the office, and 195 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,559 Speaker 2: around sixty percent said that they would reconsider it, And 196 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 2: so I think these are interesting numbers to keep in 197 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: mind if the coalition, you know, there's a lot of 198 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: ifs here but if the coalition does win the next 199 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: election and then does follow through on this election commitment, 200 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: I do think that trying to understand how the public 201 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 2: service both attracts and retains young staff will be really 202 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: really interesting. 203 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: That's a very interesting way for a lot of people 204 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: to have a touch point with this election. I mean, 205 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 3: as you just said, this is just about the public service. 206 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 3: But if sixty percent of people responding to a poll 207 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 3: are going to reconsider their jobs, if they're told to 208 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: work from the office every day, then a lot of 209 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 3: private businesses will be looking at the tone that's set 210 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 3: in this discussion as well and the views that come 211 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: out on this topic. 212 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 2: Of course, and it must be said that young people 213 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 2: have a different perspective on this. You know. We a 214 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: lot of us entered the workforce for the first time 215 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: around COVID and I don't really know anything else. So 216 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: there's lots of layers to this, lots of nuance and 217 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 2: definitely one to keep an eye on. 218 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Sarah. We are certainly getting into 219 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 3: election territory now that we're starting to break down these 220 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: kind of foreign against on some big issues. We'll be 221 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 3: back again with some headlines in the afternoon. Until then, 222 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: have a fantastic day if you're working from home or 223 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: at work. My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a 224 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 3: proud Arunda Bunjelung Kalkutin woman from Gadighl country. The Daily 225 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on the lands 226 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: of the Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal 227 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: and Torres Strait island and nations. We pay our respects 228 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 3: to the first peoples of these countries, both past and present.