1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: What does it really take to build a multi million 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: dollar software company from the ground up. On the show today, 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: I am taking you behind the scenes with Nathan Barry, 4 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: the founder and CEO of the wildly successful email marketing 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: platform convert Kit. When convert Kit was just eighteen months 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: old and failing miserably, Nathan was actually told to shut 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: it all down. But instead of quitting, Nathan took a 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: counterintuitive approach that allowed him to turn the struggling startup 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: into a business that now serves over fifty thousand creators 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: worldwide and is valued at over two hundred million dollars. 11 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,639 Speaker 1: I have been a fan and a follower of Nathan's 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: four ages, and in this chat we cover all sorts 13 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: of tactics that Nathan uses in his work, from his 14 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: annual life review ritual through to how writing one thousand 15 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: words a day for six hundred consecutive days transformed his 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: work completely. My name is doctor Amantha Imbert. I'm an 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and founder of behavior change consultancy Inventium, and 18 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: this is how I work The show about how to 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,959 Speaker 1: help you get so much more out of the hours 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: in your day. Nathan Barry was of the most fascinating 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 1: person to research as I was preparing for this interview, 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: and one of the most interesting rituals I came across 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: of Nathan's was his annual life review. So while many 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: companies do an annual review of their business and publish it, 25 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: Nathan actually does one of his life. So I was 26 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: keen to hear more about what this process looks like. 27 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 2: I learned this from a creator named Chris Gillibo back 28 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 2: in twenty eleven. The first thing is I write them 29 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 2: for myself, and that's important because if you're trying to 30 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 2: think about writing it for someone else, you know, then 31 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: you get into like is this bragging? So customer number 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 2: one is me, and probably customers one through ten are me. 33 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: Somewhere in there are my kids as a customer. That 34 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 2: would just be really interesting. There's all these different businesses 35 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: like story Worth than others that are here's a bunch 36 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 2: of questions to ask your parents so that you can 37 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: capture their life and story end video, and we'll make 38 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: this amazing artifact out of it. And I think that 39 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: would just be the best. I need to deal it 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: with my parents, and I haven't yet. I thought like, 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: why don't I just do that gradually along the way. 42 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: So the main customer is me, The next customer would 43 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 2: be my kids thirty years from now. Why not if 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: I'm going to do the work, why not put it 45 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: out there for the world and let people follow along. 46 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 2: So that's the high level idea. 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,639 Speaker 1: Can you talk me through the different themes or categories 48 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: when you're sitting down to do your annual life review 49 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: that you look at. 50 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:51,919 Speaker 2: The first thing is that I always try to put 51 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,839 Speaker 2: a title on it of some kind, which usually comes 52 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: to me at the end. So I have, like twenty 53 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 2: twenty two, a year of growth and managing stress right, 54 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: really trying to navigate. But I walked through the businesses 55 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 2: convertates the main one. But then I'll talk through the 56 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 2: other businesses and opportunities that I have. I own ten 57 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: percent of a California ghost town. I have Airbnbs, I 58 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: own a local newsletter called from Boise. So I like 59 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: to provide updates on some of those things that I 60 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: usually don't talk about. It's just a fun checking point. 61 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: If you go back to the early ones, so like 62 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: twenty twelve to maybe twenty fifteen, there was much more 63 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: of a split of like here's the books that made 64 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 2: money that was selling and things across the audience, and 65 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 2: then that just eventually all merged to like it's ninety 66 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: nine percent convertate, So that dominates a good part of it. 67 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: Another category, travel is a big one. I just like 68 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: to reflect back even on how many trips that I took. 69 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: Another big category is our farm. We moved to this 70 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: property seven years ago and then expanded it three or 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: four years ago. It's such a big project and we 72 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: don't make nearly as much progress on it as we want. 73 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 2: That it's really helpful to then be able to look 74 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 2: back and see, like, oh, that was the year that 75 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 2: we put in the playground for the kids. So that's 76 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: a big category. And then I always set goals and 77 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: I usually hit less than half of them, but it 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: still helps me to set the goals, and I'll check 79 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 2: in on fitness goals as well. It's written for me, 80 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: but i'd let people read along. 81 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 1: So, Nathan, if you were going to coach me in 82 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: starting to do this process for myself, what advice would 83 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: you give me? 84 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: Years one through three aren't that interesting? What's interesting about 85 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 2: it is when you do it for maybe years four 86 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 2: through ten. And so the first thing I would say, 87 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: what's a process that you could make sure to do 88 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: consistently every year for the rest of your life, because 89 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: then it's really interesting. What does help me. It's putting 90 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 2: a lot of things on my calendar because that's how 91 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 2: I remember. There's all kinds of things where I'm like, 92 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 2: oh yeah, I forgot about that. So photos and calendar 93 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: would be the biggest things. Take plenty of photos in 94 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: a way that you can review them and pull out 95 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 2: the highlights, because those two things are basically what reminded 96 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: me of the details in the year. If you have 97 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: health or fitness goals, make sure you're always tracked in 98 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 2: the same app. Don't chase the new tools, because what 99 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: you want is to be able to say like, oh, 100 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: as I've been on this fitness journey, let me just 101 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: screenshot the data of the last five years, instead of 102 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: saying like, oh yeah, I used my Fitness Pal and 103 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: I was over here with the bit and I jumped 104 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: to you know, all of these different. 105 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: Things in I think it would have been twenty twenty three. 106 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: Set the goal to be a lot less stressed. I'm 107 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: curious when you set a goal like that, how on 108 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: earth do you plan to achieve that. 109 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's a hard one, but I think 110 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: it's more of a guideline than a goal, or it's 111 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 2: an intention. My wife is two younger brothers, and she 112 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: and I were dating and got married when they were 113 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: probably fourteen and sixteen, and so I was always entertained 114 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: by the way they did things, the stories they told 115 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: and all of that. And they told me once that 116 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: when you're faced with two options in life, choose the 117 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: one that will result in a better story. Where's the 118 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: chance to be a better story? And so I think 119 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 2: of being less stressed, or say an intention to be 120 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: less stressed, as something like that. It's not like that's 121 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,479 Speaker 2: the guiding principle that defines the whole year, but it's like, 122 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: when you're met with two options in life, well, what's 123 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: the method to solve that that's going to result in 124 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,679 Speaker 2: less stressed. I've had these book ideas that I've wanted 125 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: to write for years, and I've chipped away at and 126 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 2: one of them that I felt like I should write first, 127 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: which is a book about building an audience. I've worked 128 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: off and on for five years and it just has 129 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: not come together. The book has not clicked, and the 130 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: be less stressed. Version of that was to hire a 131 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 2: friend of mine who I think is one of the 132 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: best in the world at book packaging, positioning, marketing, all 133 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 2: of that, and just say I'm still going to write 134 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: the book, but come alongside me and help me figure 135 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: out what this book is. And instead of me grinding 136 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: away in my own beating my head against the wall 137 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: for more years trying to do it, I did like 138 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: six three hour calls with him, so there's a lot 139 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 2: of time, but we really work through exactly what the 140 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 2: book should be. And we didn't write a We wrote 141 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,239 Speaker 2: like a five thousand word outline of this book working 142 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: through it, and he knows my work really well. It's 143 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: Tim Grawl if anyone wants to follow along storygrid dot com. 144 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: But he's one of those people that's remarkable at it. 145 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: If you look at the top one hundred pop songs, 146 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 2: you look at like the producers of the writers, and 147 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 2: you see this one person is behind like twenty five 148 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: of them. They understand what it takes to make a 149 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: great song. Tim understands what it takes to make a 150 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: great book. I have this goal to finally write and 151 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: finish this book this year. What's the less stress version 152 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: of it. Oh, let me bring a professional alongside me 153 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: to really help and guide me through this process. Same goal, 154 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: different result. 155 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it reminds me of that Tim Ferriss question, what 156 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 1: would this look like if it were easy? 157 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: It's a great one. Now. 158 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: I like that as an approach to lowering stress. And 159 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: really it comes down to the decisions that you make. 160 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: It's a segue into a big decision that you made 161 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: two years in to convert Kit. So one of the 162 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: videos that I watched in preparation for this interview, you 163 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: telling the story of what happened a couple of years 164 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: into creating convert Kit and your mental health reached what 165 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: sounded like an all time low. It was an incredibly 166 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: moving video, and thank you for sharing that. How did 167 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: you make that decision to essentially continue on with convert 168 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: kit and not kill it at that point in time. 169 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,559 Speaker 2: We have this idea that projects, you're going to start 170 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: them and they might take longer than you think, but 171 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: progress will always be linear and then eventually exponential and 172 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 2: it will just keep moving. Worst case, things will be flat. 173 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: We don't really think about what Seth Godin will talk 174 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: about as the depth of when things decrease you know, 175 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: and you hit this both emotional low, but then also 176 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: probably the business low. I was eighteen months into work 177 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 2: on convercut when a friend of mine named heat and 178 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: Shaw told me, Nathan, I think you should shut down 179 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 2: convercate and I remember thinking like, that's not a nice 180 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 2: thing to say to someone. So it was like surprised, 181 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: maybe a little offended. Especially if you live in a 182 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: world where people just say nice things, then that's a 183 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 2: little bit shocking. I hope that you, as a practice 184 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 2: try to find a friend group that doesn't just say 185 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: nice things like that's the biggest gift. But going from there, 186 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: what he said is you should check in counbirk it 187 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, why. He's like, look, you've 188 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: been successful selling books and courses. You'll be successful plenty 189 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: of other things you do. Could birk it is eighteen 190 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: months in, it's shrinking at this time, like you should 191 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: shut it down and move on to something else. He'd 192 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: let me sit with that for a second and then 193 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: he goes, or you could take it seriously and give 194 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: it the time, money and attention it deserves and build 195 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: it into something real. And that's ot with me for 196 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: a while. I wish I'd done the thing of like 197 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: immediately made a decision, But often when we hear good advice, 198 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 2: we've sit on it for too long. And so it 199 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 2: ended up being about six months later. So two years 200 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 2: in that revenue had declined. We're at thirteen hundred a 201 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: month in revenue. It was no longer longer covering like 202 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: even the server hosting basic expenses. I'm losing money to 203 00:09:57,559 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 2: operate this business. And I was trying to think, how 204 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 2: am I to make this decision? In my case, I 205 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 2: still really wanted to build a software company. I definitely 206 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 2: absolutely want this. So then the next question I asked 207 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: is have you given this every possible chance to succeed? 208 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: Because if you've truly given it your best and it 209 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 2: hasn't worked, then you can let it go. You can 210 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 2: lay it to rest, knowing that everything within your power 211 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 2: was done. In my case, I hadn't, right I asked 212 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: that question, and I was like, no, I have worked 213 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: on it part time. I haven't put that much money 214 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 2: into it, Like I have more savings that I could 215 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 2: pour into this. And I realized that if I shut 216 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 2: convert it down in that moment, I would be that 217 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: person at a party three years from now and you'd 218 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: be like, oh, what happened to convert it? And like, yeah, 219 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: you know, I had to shut it down. But I 220 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: think if I had stuck with it, like I for 221 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: sure could have made that happen. You know, like we've 222 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 2: all encountered that person who is like, oh, just this 223 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: had been different, you know, it would have been a 224 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 2: huge win. And I don't like that person. I don't 225 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 2: want to be that person. And so I felt this 226 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 2: disconnect between what I said I wanted and with the 227 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 2: effort and work I was willing to put in. And 228 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 2: so I actually set a goal within six months to 229 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,599 Speaker 2: get to ten thousand a month in revenue or I 230 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 2: would shut it down. It was really that framework helped 231 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 2: me decide. And then obviously nine years later after that moment, 232 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: I'm pretty happy with the double down decision because now 233 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: it's a giant company that powers fifty thousand plus creators 234 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: like entire business. 235 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: That's an amazing story. Something I have heard you say 236 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: when I've listened to other interviews with you is talking 237 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,440 Speaker 1: about certain things being simple but not easy, and that 238 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: really stuck with me. Can you tell me a little 239 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: bit more about what that means? 240 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 2: There's so many things in life that we want to 241 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: know what's the secret. I was talking to this person 242 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 2: that I met, and somehow it came up in conversations 243 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: that they'd lost like fifty pounds and they looked quite fit, 244 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 2: and I was trying to imagine them with fifty more pounds, 245 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 2: and I was just like, how did you do it? 246 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,719 Speaker 2: Like expecting they'd you know, uncovered this whole secret. And 247 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: there's like I gradually increased my movement over time, and 248 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: I just made sure that I operated a caloriye, and 249 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: that's it. Then, So you take something like weight loss, 250 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: it's pretty well known. It is relatively simple and definitely 251 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: not easy. Right, So we want to look at all 252 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 2: of these things, whether it's building an audience for example, 253 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: pretty much if you show up consistently and you were 254 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: to choose one platform and say, okay, I'm going to 255 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: build an audience on X, it's fairly simple. Post every day, 256 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 2: network with other creators, and reply to comments and engage. Right, 257 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: if you do that every single day for two years, 258 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: like you're a student of the game, then I guarantee 259 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 2: you're going to see success. It's fairly simple. And when 260 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 2: I say it's simple, but not easy. What I'm referring 261 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: to is stop looking for the hacks or the secrets 262 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: or the tricks. You just have to make the hard decisions, 263 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: easy decisions, hard life, hard decisions, easy life. 264 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: Now, you're one of the only entrepreneurs or CEOs that 265 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: I've interviewed that has a writing habit, and for the 266 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,079 Speaker 1: most part, that's a daily writing habit. I'm curious as 267 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: to what that currently looks like in your life. 268 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: It's very scattered at the moment, and I actually have 269 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: a bit of an identity crisis when it comes to 270 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: my writing habit, and that's because I built a lot 271 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 2: of my identity as a creator around this idea of 272 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: writing a thousand words a day. I built this habit 273 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: of writing a thousand words a day every day for 274 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 2: six hundred days in a row, and I built my 275 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: entire career as a content creator off of that thing. 276 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: I wrote three books, odds of log posts, built an 277 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 2: audience to ten thousand subscribers or more. Now, I ended 278 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,239 Speaker 2: up getting stressed out because of other things, getting shingles, 279 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 2: and so at this point my writing habit is fairly sporadic. 280 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 2: I still write fairly regularly, probably three times a week, 281 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 2: but it's not the every single day habit that I 282 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 2: wish it was, because I decided for this season I 283 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: have a different priority. 284 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: So what role, then, does writing now play in your life? 285 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 2: Writing is the way I bring most of my ideas 286 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: to the world, and I still have so many things 287 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: that I want to say. I have these flagship essays 288 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 2: that I've written on building wealth and flywheels and these 289 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 2: other concepts that I think are really really important, and 290 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:03,719 Speaker 2: I have a bunch more of those that I want 291 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 2: to bring to the world, but the process of writing 292 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: them is more time consuming. I think what I've decided 293 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: is that I need to sequence the activities that I'm doing. 294 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 2: I do way too many things and I spread myself 295 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: then and now. What I'm doing differently this time is 296 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 2: I'm diving into team building. So I might not write 297 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 2: all of my own material. I might have an idea 298 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: give it to a researcher who I haven't hired yet 299 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 2: but still into hire. So I still plan to spend 300 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: a good amount of time writing myself, but I think 301 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: about content creation at the scale that I'm at very 302 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 2: much as a team sport rather than a solo writer. 303 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: In the cabin in the woods type of thing. 304 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: I find that fascinating As a writer myself. I've just 305 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: had my fourth book come out, and I feel like 306 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: the large part of my self identity is attached to 307 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: being a writer and creating the thing myself and doing 308 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: the research myself. How did you make that leap to 309 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 1: almost detach part of your self identity from that writing 310 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: process and a low yourself to delegate, outsource, build a 311 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: team around it. 312 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 2: It's been a very gradual process. I'm not at the 313 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: point where I would hire someone else to write a 314 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 2: book for me. I have nothing against that, actually, because 315 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: I think that you get in situations where you have 316 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: someone who has an amazing story or point of view 317 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: on the world and is not an amazing writer, and 318 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: they should absolutely bring someone along. One thing that's been 319 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: helpful for me is realizing that there's only so many 320 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: hours in the day and so much time that you 321 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 2: have to apply. I'm willing to get a team, so 322 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: stop depriving the world and your ideas and actually build 323 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: the systems and bring the team in place to make 324 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: it happen. 325 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: Now. Something that I know you're very passionate about is flywheels. 326 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: Can you for people that have not come across what 327 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: on Earth we are talking about, describe what one is. 328 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, So a flywheel is a concept in physics really 329 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 2: of taking manual effort and then transferring it into something 330 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: that like either storing the energy or carrying it forward. 331 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 2: So the first time that I encountered a fly wheel 332 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: was in two thousand and eight and I was in Lisutu, 333 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: which is the landlocked country inside of South Africa, and 334 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 2: we were working at an orphanage and we had drilled 335 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: a well and we were going to put a pump 336 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 2: on top of the well. And Masera, the capital city 337 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: where we were at, had electricity, but in the two 338 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: weeks we were there, I think it went out like 339 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: eight times. So we didn't really want to put an 340 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: electric pump on this well, and so I was thinking like, okay, 341 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 2: we're adding a hand pump, and Jason, one of the 342 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: guys leading our trip, was like, no, no, no, we're gonna 343 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: put a flywheel on it. So instead of the hand pump, 344 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: which would be this long handle, you go and pump 345 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 2: your water and this the handle gives you leverage. But 346 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: there's a direct tie between the effort that you put 347 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: in and the impact or the results that you get 348 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 2: back and at the moment you stop pumping, you immediately 349 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: stopped getting water. And so instead of that, the flywheel 350 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 2: is this large metal wheel that sits up on top 351 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: of the pump. It's hard to get going initially, but 352 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 2: instead of this linear up and down movement, it carries 353 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 2: that momentum forward and it builds momentum over time. It's 354 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 2: soon need an input, but I could basically with one 355 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 2: or two fingers just keep this thing spinning. And so 356 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 2: that's a metaphor. Obviously, like we get to apply it 357 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: to all these other areas of life and business, and 358 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 2: like we talked about health and business, that's a flywheel. 359 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 2: It is incredibly difficult to get going. If you're starting 360 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 2: with really small changes. You're just saying, oh, I'm gonna 361 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 2: eat a piece of fruit every day. You can build 362 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: on from there. So it really came to three laws 363 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: that define a flywheel, especially in the business case. The 364 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: first is every step in a flywheel should flow smoothly 365 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: from one into the next. The second law is that 366 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 2: it should get easier with each rotation, and then the 367 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 2: third laws it should deliver more with every rotation. So 368 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: that's flywheels at a high level, but and we can 369 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: go wherever you'd like from there. 370 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: We will be back with Nathan soon giving an example 371 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: of how he uses the flywheel framework in his business 372 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: to drive sales. If you're looking for more tips to 373 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,239 Speaker 1: improve the way you work and live, I write a 374 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: weekly newsletter where I share practical and simple to apply 375 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: tips to improve your life. You can sign up for 376 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: that at Amantha dot substack dot com. That's Amantha dot 377 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 1: substack dot com. I would love to get maybe an 378 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: example from within convert Kit in the sales process, because 379 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: I think everyone listening will have some kind of a 380 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: sales process in their business, maybe they are directly involved 381 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: in sales. How have you gone about applying the flywheel 382 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 1: concept to driving sales at convert Kit. 383 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this tas in nicely with the kind of 384 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: the pivot point that we talked about in Invertkit, because 385 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: it wasn't just that I went all in on a 386 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 2: convert it and like magically we got results. I actually 387 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: did things differently when I made that pivot, and one 388 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: of the biggest things that I did is I started 389 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: direct sales being a content marketer. I I was thinking, 390 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 2: I'm going to grow through content, right, that is how 391 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: this business is going to grow. Turns out, it's really 392 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 2: really hard to sell software through content, especially software that 393 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 2: it's not very good yet because it's new, and so 394 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 2: the pivot to direct sales really let me grow the 395 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: company and get traction early on, especially because what happens 396 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,239 Speaker 2: when selling through content is if you and I are 397 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: having a conversation. We're sitting across from each other at 398 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: a coffee shop and I'm saying, would you like to 399 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,719 Speaker 2: buy convert it? Become a customer if you are like 400 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: look at me and then like push back your chair 401 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 2: and without saying anything, just get up and leave. That 402 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 2: would be socially unacceptable on so many levels. Right. If 403 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: I say, hey, will you buy this thing? You were 404 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 2: obligated by the rules of our society to give me 405 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: a response. It might be like maybe I'll think about 406 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: it or no, but you have to give me a response. 407 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: And whatever response you give me, I can learn from 408 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: that when you think about content marketing. That socially unacceptable 409 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 2: interaction happens all the time. I can just hit the 410 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 2: back button. I've completely rejected you. You get no feed back, 411 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 2: and that's what happens on the web. So I love 412 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 2: it when people will go into direct sales because it 413 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: gets them all of the speedback. So my flywheel for 414 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: convertant direct sales like it worked, and then now years later, 415 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: I'm like, why did that work? I'm like, that was 416 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: a flywheel and I didn't even realize it. So I 417 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: started just identifying potential customers. I looked at who was 418 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: successful in convert it and I was like, Okay, let 419 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: me find people like them that got me, like lists 420 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: of men's fashion bloggers in New York Paley Arrecipe blog, 421 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: try to get as specific as possible. Then I'd reach 422 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 2: out with a personal message and I would ask about 423 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 2: what was frustrating so specificly, I'd see they're using Mailchimp 424 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 2: and I'd say, hey, I was wondering whether what's your 425 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:41,119 Speaker 2: biggest frustration with using Mailchimp. The reason I ask is 426 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,920 Speaker 2: I'm working on building a tool called convertt and it's 427 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 2: used by and I would drop my the only two 428 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: relevant names that I had that was a customer or 429 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: someone else, And I just love to get your feedback, right, 430 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: So I'd start with that it had a pretty good 431 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 2: reply rate, and people wud say, oh, I'm really frustrated 432 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 2: with it's hard to tag and organize my audio, it's 433 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 2: hard to set up automations that are relevant to my subscribers, 434 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: things like that, which very conveniently. I built the product 435 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 2: because I used Mailchip, but I was frustrated by these 436 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 2: exact same things, and so I'd say like, oh, here's 437 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 2: how we're solving. I'd love to get on a call 438 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: and show that to you. And that worked really well, 439 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 2: and at some point i'd ask for the sale and 440 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: they would usually say no now, thankfully because we're on 441 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: a call. They had to tell me why. And the 442 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: reason they said why was usually it's too much work 443 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: to migrate. We've been using this other tool for three years, 444 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: five years, and we're deeply embedded, until finally, like, out 445 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: of desperation, like it's not that much work, blah blah blah, 446 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 2: I'll do it for you for free. And that's where 447 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 2: our concierge migration was born. And I would pull up 448 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: their mailchim account and their converorking account here another like 449 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: copy and paste over their emails and then edit all 450 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: their forms and switch those over. And what that did 451 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: is that's how I landed the customer, and then I 452 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 2: would get a testimonial and the recommendation, Hey, who else 453 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 2: should I get on? Convert it that recommendation The people 454 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 2: completed the loop right. It brings my flywheel background to 455 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 2: the beginning, because then now I've identified new customers. And 456 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: so if we go through our three laws for this 457 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 2: direct sales flywheel first is every step moves smoothly. Wanted too. 458 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: The next right migration goes testimonial, which leads to new 459 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 2: customers or new referrals that I can then talk to. Next. 460 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: It gets easier with every rotation because my prospecting got 461 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: more dialed in my cold email, I knew what worked. 462 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 2: My sales calls got a lot better, the product got better, 463 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 2: and then it also drove more results with every rotation 464 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: because I could reach more and more people. Word of 465 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 2: mouth started to kick in a little bit, and so 466 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: I just noticed that that flywheel was so hard to 467 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 2: turn it first, but it got just a tiny bit 468 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: easier with every rotation up until the point that we 469 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 2: just had a huge amount of momentum in word of mouth. 470 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: That's such a great story, such a great example. I 471 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: love that, Thank you, David. One other thing I wanted 472 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: to ask about is that you recently took a sabbatical. 473 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: And when I read that, I thought, I need to 474 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: take a sabbatical. I've been running my business Inventium for 475 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: seventeen years, and I think the longest I've taken off 476 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: in recent times is I don't know it, maybe two 477 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: or three weeks. I'm craving it, but the timing is 478 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,360 Speaker 1: not right now because I'm hiring a CEO. How did 479 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 1: you know it was time to take a sabbatical. 480 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 2: How did you approach it. I probably would not have 481 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 2: taken a sabbatical if it wasn't for my team. We 482 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 2: have a benefit at Convertant that when you hit five years, 483 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: you get a month long sabbatical in addition to the 484 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 2: month of vacation time you have every year. So sometimes 485 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: people will take, you know, six or eight weeks sabbatical 486 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 2: and I would joke like, I've been working on Convercure 487 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: for ten years, so I actually get two sabbaticals now. 488 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: And a few people on my team were like, no, 489 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 2: but you need to take a sabbatical, and I was like, no, no, no, 490 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: there's too much going on and all of that, and 491 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 2: they just kept saying like you were setting the example 492 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 2: for the team that sabbaticals are this thing that they 493 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 2: should aspire to and are earned, and it's like, if 494 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 2: you believe this, live it out. I was like, all right, 495 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: and so I finally did. I had for probably a 496 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 2: six months leading up to it, I had a doc 497 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 2: outlining what are the different types of sabbaticals I could take, 498 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: Because you could do an epic adventure. I'm going to 499 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: walk the community to Santiago, right, or go on this 500 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 2: epic vacation for the full time or something like that, 501 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 2: or like I always wanted to learn to five plans, 502 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: and I ended up just doing a combination of a 503 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 2: few things. Mostly what I chose was learning and the staycation, 504 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 2: and so I enjoyed life around Boise. We went on 505 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: a vacation, I spent a bunch of time working on 506 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 2: my pilot's lecense. I worked on a couple of things. 507 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: We had some really big convertate things going on. So 508 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 2: I think I took three meetings in thirty days. It 509 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: was very weird for me to walk out of a meeting, 510 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: like I'm used to sharing the work or something like that, 511 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 2: and I could walk out of the meeting then I 512 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,479 Speaker 2: guess I'm just gonna go. So it's good to be 513 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 2: a lot less involved in the business. But yeah, I 514 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 2: think that it'd be really good pride for me to 515 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: do every two or three years instead of you been 516 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: every five years. 517 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: That is that is very inspiring, differently inspiring me to 518 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: book something in Why Diari Now? Nathan, I feel like 519 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: you're so prolific. There's so many different places I could 520 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: direct listeners to to discover more about you and obviously 521 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: convert kid. Where are the best places for people to go? 522 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: Nathanberry dot com is where I try to keep everything 523 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: up to date the new I write a weekly newsletter 524 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,199 Speaker 2: every Tuesday. I host a podcast called The Billion Dollar Creator. 525 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: But then I think the biggest thing is if you're 526 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 2: looking to know more of my story than the documentary 527 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 2: that the team forced me to make that's on YouTube, 528 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: that's probably the best summary of life over the last 529 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: ten years. 530 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: Amazing, well, Nathan, I'm so grateful that you said yes 531 00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: to this random reach out from Australia. I'm such a 532 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: big fan of what you do, so thank you so 533 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,560 Speaker 1: much for sharing your time with me today. 534 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 2: Oh, of course, thank you so much for having me. 535 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: I hope you liked this chat with Nathan Barry, and 536 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: I must say, ever since discovering Nathan, I have become 537 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: obsessed with flywheels and thinking about different ways to apply 538 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: it to my work and also at my company, Inventium. 539 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: If you know someone that my benefit from this chat, 540 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: feel free to share it with them via whichever podcast 541 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: app you are listening to this episode from Following this 542 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: podcast and leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners, 543 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: and your support is one of the things that makes 544 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 1: this podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your 545 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: day with me by listening to How I Work. If 546 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: you're keen for more tips on how to work better, 547 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy 548 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 1: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work 549 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people, 550 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: part of the Cool And Nation. I am so grateful 551 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 1: for being able to work and live on this beautiful 552 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: land and I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, 553 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: present and emerging. How I Work is produced by me 554 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: Amantha Imba. The episode producer was Rowena Murray and thank 555 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: you to Martin Imba who does the audio mix. For 556 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: every episode and makes everything sound better than it would 557 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,119 Speaker 1: have otherwise.