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Speaker 1: What's really important I think for parents to know is

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Speaker 1: that your kid did not trigger you. You constructed that

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Speaker 1: trigger right, because five people may watch that kid behave

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Speaker 1: like Uncle Marvin wasn't triggered. Why are you triggering, Daddy?

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Speaker 1: That's an important piece for parents to understand.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 3: wants answers?

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Speaker 2: Now Gooday.

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Speaker 4: This is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six books

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Speaker 4: about raising happy families, joined as always with my wife

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Speaker 4: and co host missus Happy Families, Kylie, the parents of

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Speaker 4: six daughters, and today a special returning guest.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 3: A few weeks ago we had Mark Brackett, an emotion

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Speaker 3: scientist on to talk about this concept of emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the author of Permission to Feel.

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Speaker 3: And he was kind enough to say that he'd come back.

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many dads come up to

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Speaker 1: me after I give my presentations and they say.

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Speaker 5: Things like, oh, my goodness, that you are so vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: You shared about your abuse and you're bullying and maybe

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Speaker 1: this something to this, you know, asking questions.

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Speaker 4: If you miss that podcast, make sure that you go

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Speaker 4: back and have listened to Mark's store it's really extraordinary

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Speaker 4: to look at where he's come from and what he

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Speaker 4: does today. I loved that conversation. A quick reminder about

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Speaker 4: who Mark is if you've missed it. Mark is the

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Speaker 4: director of the Yale Center for Emotional Intelligence. He's also

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Speaker 4: a professor in the Child Study Center of Yale University.

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Speaker 2: He's also the lead developer of.

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Speaker 4: An educational program called RULER, which is an evidence based

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Speaker 4: approach to social and emotional learning. It's been adopted by

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Speaker 4: thousands of schools around the world.

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Speaker 3: So most of us have heard of this concept of

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Speaker 3: emotional intelligence, but I wonder how many of us actually

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Speaker 3: really understand what it means. So for someone like me, Mark,

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Speaker 3: can you give me a really simple and concise definition

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Speaker 3: of what emotional intelligence is.

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Speaker 1: It's defined as we call it ruler. It's an acronym

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Speaker 1: recognizing emotions and self and others. So being self aware

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Speaker 1: and socially aware of how people are feeling, how you're feeling,

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Speaker 1: understanding the causes and the consequences of feelings. So why

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Speaker 1: am I angry versus disappointed? What's the difference? Am my

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Speaker 1: stress throughund my overwhelmed? Why does it matter? That leads

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Speaker 1: to labeling feelings. Well, if I'm angry, well is it

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Speaker 1: a little bit of anger or a lot of anger?

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Speaker 1: Am I enraged? Or am I peeved? Or am I irritated?

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Speaker 1: Am I anxious? Or am I just uneasy? So the R,

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Speaker 1: the you and the L a ruler or as you

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Speaker 1: say in Australia.

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Speaker 5: Rule lah.

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Speaker 1: Is about self. It's about really understanding your experience of emotion.

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Speaker 1: The E in the R A ruler is about what

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Speaker 1: we do with those feelings. So the E is expressing emotion,

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Speaker 1: knowing how and when to express feelings with different people

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Speaker 1: across context, and understand the cultural nuance of expression. Right

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Speaker 1: eye contact doesn't mean the same everywhere. Directness is not

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Speaker 1: the right thing. It's maybe one way one culture. And

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Speaker 1: then regulating emotions the strategy that we use to both

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Speaker 1: manage our own feelings but help other people to manage theirs.

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Speaker 4: Okay, great, So very brief summary. Understanding how my emotions

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Speaker 4: are working. You mentioned triggers before. We'll come back to

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Speaker 4: that a little bit later. But also being socially aware

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Speaker 4: enough to see how people are feeling, and then being

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Speaker 4: able to regulate my emotions and another person's emotions in

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Speaker 4: a way or help them to regulate this in a

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Speaker 4: way that we can actually get along well and work

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Speaker 4: towards our objectives in a positive.

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Speaker 5: Way, or just to chieve your own goals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great, okay you.

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Speaker 4: I think this is a really interesting quiz that I

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Speaker 4: just want to pick up on you. You talked about being

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Speaker 4: able to distinguish between emotions when you were describing what

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Speaker 4: emotional intelligence is, and I jotted down as you said it.

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Speaker 4: You said, knowing the difference between being angry and being disappointed.

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Speaker 4: Anger is a secondary emotion, right, Anger comes from somewhere else,

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Speaker 4: It comes from another emotion. Often, disappointment might lead to

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Speaker 4: anger because a parent's not able to respond appropriately and

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Speaker 4: effectively to their own disappointment. But I'm curious just just

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Speaker 4: to disentangle those two emotions, how do you how do

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Speaker 4: you differentiate between anger and disappointment?

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Speaker 1: So they're different completely in many ways, because one is

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Speaker 1: just an unman expectation, right, everything's legit. Like let's say

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Speaker 1: it's a parent in their kid. It's like we're going

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Speaker 1: to go to the mall, or we're going to go

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Speaker 1: visit a friend, but that you get a flat tire

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Speaker 1: and the mom or dad is just like saying honey,

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Speaker 1: you know, gosh, we really wanted to go to the mall.

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Speaker 1: Were going to bring it to your friend's house, but

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Speaker 1: we got a flat tire, and it's just there's no

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Speaker 1: way we're going.

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Speaker 5: To get there.

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Speaker 1: And the kid, maybe I hate you, I thought we

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Speaker 1: were it's your fault. But the truth is, you know,

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Speaker 1: if it's explained properly, there's no reason to be angry

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Speaker 1: right because there's no injustice. There's no unfairness there. It's

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Speaker 1: not unfair that we've got a flat tire. Is something happened.

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Speaker 1: So that's why parents, I think it's important and then

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Speaker 1: explain the consequences and also the reasons and say, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm disappointed too. You know, I really thought we were

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Speaker 1: going to get to go to the mall together and

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Speaker 1: we had everything was going well except we've got the

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Speaker 1: plant tire. Now, if you were like in my family

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Speaker 1: where your parents would make promises and they would never

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Speaker 1: file through with them, Well, when I go on to

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Speaker 1: the you know that was yesterday, I didn't like to

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Speaker 1: you be hered at lunchter a breakfast this morning, when

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Speaker 1: I go on and see it to a mall today,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? Now? All of a sudden

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Speaker 1: when I going to the mall. That's not fair, Like

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Speaker 1: that's your that's not fair, you promise me, all right, now.

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Speaker 5: That's anger.

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Speaker 1: And it's important to distinguish those two because the strategies

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Speaker 1: that you would use as a parent to help your

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Speaker 1: child regulate would be very different.

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Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about those strategies, because what I've found

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Speaker 4: is that when I'm running a seminar for parents, they'll

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Speaker 4: say things like, well, I'll ask the question what emotions

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Speaker 4: are okay?

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Speaker 2: And what emotions are not okay?

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Speaker 4: When it comes to our children and their expression of emotion,

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Speaker 4: you know what emotions are. We find with them expressing

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Speaker 4: what ones are not okay, And most of the parents

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Speaker 4: in the room will have a quick conversation with each

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Speaker 4: other and then they'll knowingly not and say, all emotions

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Speaker 4: are okay, all emotions are okay, And of course you

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Speaker 4: know that's the right answer.

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Speaker 2: All emotions are okay. Everybody knows that that's right.

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Speaker 4: Except what we then start to uncover is that when

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Speaker 4: children begin to have emotions, particularly big emotions like anger

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Speaker 4: or like frustration, When children start to act out, be

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Speaker 4: angry with their siblings and have these really big explosive

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Speaker 4: emotions or even high levels of excitement what we might

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Speaker 4: call the you know, quote unquote positive emotions, which I

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Speaker 4: know is a loaded term. But when people will talk

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Speaker 4: about the overarching thrill that kids are getting, when they're

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Speaker 4: so excited that they're running around the house and they're

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Speaker 4: banging into wars, and parents will usually say, actually, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I know that all emotions are okay, but I'm very

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Speaker 4: uncomfortable with my children having emotions that are above you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe a six out of ten. As soon as the

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Speaker 4: intensity ramps up, I just can't take it anymore. I

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Speaker 4: need them to calm their emotions down. You can have

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Speaker 4: the emotion, just have it quietly in the corner, please,

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Speaker 4: That kind of ideas. So how do we help parents

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Speaker 4: to take the information that emotions convey, like the anger

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Speaker 4: or the disappointment and respond in effective ways.

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Speaker 1: Well, the first is it depends on the intensity, right,

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Speaker 1: because we know that our brains go into that flight,

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Speaker 1: our fight mode when the emotions are running high. So

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Speaker 1: a parents have to be the best role models, right.

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Speaker 1: You can't if you get out to be like my parents,

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Speaker 1: did you get triggered?

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Speaker 5: Like kiss? What it's like over? You know?

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Speaker 1: Because then you're both in that red quadrant on my

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Speaker 1: mood meter, and you're just like active, you know, after

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Speaker 1: each other. So firstly, what's really important I think for

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Speaker 1: parents to know is that your kid did not trigger you.

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Speaker 1: Got to say that again, your kid did not trigger you, right,

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Speaker 1: you constructed that trigger right, because five people may watch

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Speaker 1: that kid behave like Uncle Marvin wasn't triggered. Why are

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Speaker 1: you triggering, daddy? It's not about me then, So just

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Speaker 1: that's an important piece for parents understand.

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Speaker 3: That's a really, really good point. Justin and I have

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Speaker 3: spoken about this so many times in our house. So

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Speaker 3: what you're really saying, Mark is that our kids can't

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Speaker 3: actually make us feel anything correct.

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Speaker 4: Emotions are contagious. We can easily catch what another person's feeling,

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Speaker 4: but we're also in control of our emotions, and we

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Speaker 4: can't blame our children for our explosiveness in response to

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Speaker 4: their big emotion.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely not. And also it's about our appraisal, our process

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Speaker 1: of appraising the situation. So if I appraise this as

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Speaker 1: like my mother, I'm assuming because she's no longer with me,

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Speaker 1: and we never talked about this because I became a

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Speaker 1: scientist after she passed away but my hunch is that

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Speaker 1: she didn't have the resources or the skills to deal

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Speaker 1: with the behavior that I confronted her with, and so

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Speaker 1: she went into survival mode, defense mode.

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Speaker 3: We're talking to emotion scientist Mark Brackett on today's Happy

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Speaker 3: Families Podcast. We'll continue our conversation with him in just

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Speaker 3: a minute.

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Speaker 1: For a happier family, try a Happy Families membership, because a.

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Speaker 5: Happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 4: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 2: It's a Happy Family's podcast Today.

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Speaker 4: We're talking to professor Mark Brackett from Yale University. He's

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Speaker 4: the author of a book called Permission to Feel, which

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Speaker 4: is one of my favorite books ever on emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Mark just thinking about parents who might be explosive with

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Speaker 4: the kids in the living room, they tend not to

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Speaker 4: be so explosive down at the park or at the shops.

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Speaker 2: When we have an audience.

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Speaker 4: We just seem to be able to regulate our emotions better.

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Speaker 4: So we do have the capacity to get to the

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Speaker 4: point where our children are not making us blop.

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Speaker 2: They can't make us blow up.

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Speaker 1: Context matters when you're in a situation where you're going

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Speaker 1: to be you know, watched you behave differently, especially as adult,

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Speaker 1: which also leads to weirdness with a kid, like why

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Speaker 1: you mean some mean to me here? You're not meaning

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Speaker 1: me when we're by Grandma's house. But I think you know,

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Speaker 1: the first thing going back to like practical strategies here

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Speaker 1: is that you know, as parents, we have to know

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Speaker 1: how to deactivate, Like we just have to know that

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Speaker 1: once we go into that hijack mode, we're not going

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Speaker 1: to be helpful, you know, we're going to be in

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Speaker 1: retaliatory you know mode. And then the second is that

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Speaker 1: we have to help our kids deactivate because you can't

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Speaker 1: ask your kid to think of a solution or support

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Speaker 1: them when they're activated. So that might be taking some

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Speaker 1: breath together, it might be giving some space, it might

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Speaker 1: be taking a walk, it might be doing something to

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Speaker 1: just bring the energy down. That's the first step in

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Speaker 1: all of our work. It's just like making sure that

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Speaker 1: you're in that green quadrant right as best as you

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Speaker 1: can to have that conversation. And then the questions are

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Speaker 1: what goes next? And I think the next step is

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Speaker 1: what you said a minute ago, which is there's no

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Speaker 1: such thing as that feeling. It's the validation phase. It's understandable.

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Speaker 1: I get it. My goodness, if someone made fun of

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Speaker 1: me like that at school, I would feel the same

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Speaker 1: way too. This is terrible. You've got to just validate

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Speaker 1: the experience where you know a lot of parents do

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Speaker 1: things like you know, well, why are you getting read

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Speaker 1: with that? There's nothing to be angry about. Okay, Well

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Speaker 1: that's not going to be helpful because I am it's

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Speaker 1: about my perception and so like I am feeling that way.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of like the would you just calm down,

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Speaker 4: stop it, cut it out, that's enough, And that kind

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Speaker 4: of response that doesn't validate it actually in flames it

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Speaker 4: makes it go bigger because the child now is thinking,

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Speaker 4: not only are having this big emotion that I don't understand,

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Speaker 4: but now I'm being told there's something wrong with me

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Speaker 4: for having it, and that's that's terrifying for a child.

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Speaker 5: Completely.

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Speaker 1: This is where right you asked, you know about the

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Speaker 1: emotion scientist. So this is where the parents, as the

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Speaker 1: emotion scientist, becomes that coach, and they become that coach

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Speaker 1: by asking open ended questions. So tell me what happened

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Speaker 1: before you came home today, what happened on the bus?

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Speaker 5: How was math today? How is science today? Who would

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Speaker 5: you hang out with at lunch?

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Speaker 1: You know what's going on, you know, And that's where

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Speaker 1: you know, if you're afraid of sharing your own stories

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Speaker 1: about your own disappointment and frustration, then you're probably not

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Speaker 1: going to be doing that emotion coaching where you're learning

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Speaker 1: about your child's experience. And this is why, you know,

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Speaker 1: parents have to develop the skills of emotional intelligence before

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Speaker 1: they can coach their kid, because if you don't have

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Speaker 1: the knowledge of emotion, like if you don't know as

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Speaker 1: a parent, the difference between anger and disappointment, like really

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Speaker 1: understand that one is about unmet expectation the other one

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Speaker 1: is about injustice, then you're absorbing information. You start labeling

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Speaker 1: the emotions for your kids. Oh so that's why you're angry. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually disappointed, mom. You just haven't read that book

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Speaker 1: on emotional intelligence yet. And so it's really about the

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Speaker 1: parent having that knowledge about what we call the emotion

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Speaker 1: themes that angers around injustice. Disappointment is around and expectations,

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Speaker 1: Fear is around danger, anxiety is around uncertainty. Because then

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Speaker 1: as you're listening to the stories, you're starting to make

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Speaker 1: some meaning out of Thus experiencing. I think it might

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Speaker 1: be this. I'm not going to say it, but I

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Speaker 1: think it might be fear. I think it might be frustration.

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Speaker 1: I think it might be anger, And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: try to clarify that with questions. That's the labeling piece.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and this is where you say, if you can

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Speaker 4: name it, you can tame it. A phrase that I

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Speaker 4: use all the time is we need to get curious,

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Speaker 4: not furious. It's all about this exploration. And what I've

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Speaker 4: also found marketing. You might have found this as well,

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Speaker 4: is that I can say to my children, you seem

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Speaker 4: to be feeling, and then I'll guess the emotion that

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Speaker 4: they might be feeling. And when I'm wrong, my kids

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Speaker 4: will usually say, no, I'm not feeling that at all,

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Speaker 4: and they'll correct me. They actually give me information back

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Speaker 4: when they can see that I'm trying to name it

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Speaker 4: to tame it, they get that I'm trying to be

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Speaker 4: that emotion scientist rather than the emotion judge completely.

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Speaker 1: And so then we've gone from like being the role model,

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Speaker 1: being prepared entering the conversation through the lens of my

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Speaker 1: best self as a mom or dad, to supporting, you know,

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Speaker 1: my child and deactivating to the conversation with the open

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Speaker 1: ended questions to try to find out the feelings that

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Speaker 1: are happening and the reasons for those feelings. And then

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Speaker 1: that's when the regulation comes in, right, that's when the

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Speaker 1: real strategies come in. So that's when you start thinking about,

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Speaker 1: like if it was for me, for example, mine was

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Speaker 1: a lot of bullying, like walking home to and from school, Well,

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Speaker 1: obviously there could have been an intervention there, but there

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Speaker 1: never was, and so I got stuck in this terrible

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Speaker 1: situation either on the school bus or walking where that

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Speaker 1: my parents would have known that I was feeling shame

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Speaker 1: and disgust and fear and the reasons for it. They

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Speaker 1: probably would have, you know, communicated with the school, maybe

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Speaker 1: figured out a way to you know, have my get

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Speaker 1: me to school in a different way. Maybe the kid

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Speaker 1: who was spitting on me and punching me would have,

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Speaker 1: you know, had some consequences for his behavior. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: would have known what he was feeling and what his

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Speaker 1: experiences were like. And so the regulation piece, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, most people struggle with the most because I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: let's think about it, how many of us had a

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Speaker 1: formal education and healthy emotion regulation strategies growing up.

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Speaker 3: Such a good point. Mark just absolutely loved the things

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Speaker 3: that we've talked about today and just that reminder that

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Speaker 3: it is so important for us as parents to be

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Speaker 3: intentional intention in the way we do things. Thank you

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Speaker 3: so much for taking time out again to spend with

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Speaker 3: us here on the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 5: All right, thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: You really appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: Mark, I love that when we get to have guests on,

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Speaker 4: I actually like talking to us enough that they come

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Speaker 4: back and spend time with us.

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Speaker 2: I reckon we should talk to make one more time.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully he'll be okay with that.

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Speaker 4: I'll check it out so that we can just finalize

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Speaker 4: because I think that there's I've got more questions and

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Speaker 4: he's been wonderful.

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Speaker 2: We do hope that you've enjoyed the podcast.

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Speaker 4: If you do enjoy the podcast, please visit Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Lead a rating and review.

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Speaker 4: When you do that, it helps other people to find

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Speaker 4: the podcast and puts it in front of them so

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Speaker 4: that they can make happier families.

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Speaker 2: We are so grateful when you do that.

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Speaker 4: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roulant from

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Speaker 4: Bridge Media, our executive producer is Craig Bruce. If you

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Speaker 4: would like more information on how we can help your

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Speaker 4: family flourish, you can get all the info at happy

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Speaker 4: families dot com dot au