Speaker 1: It's in the news today, but it was actually on
Speaker 1: TV Reload the podcast last week. And welcome to older
Speaker 1: new TV Reload listeners. My name is Benjamin Norris, and
Speaker 1: this is your podcast to get all the insight goss
Speaker 1: on the popular TV shows that you may be watching
Speaker 1: from around the world. I focus on a variety of
Speaker 1: reality shows, scripted dramas, comedies, and documentaries from freeoware channels
Speaker 1: and our most popular streaming services. Undeniably, our TV sets
Speaker 1: are a major part of our home entertainment, and very
Speaker 1: little is known about how our favorite shows get made.
Speaker 1: Each episode, I find guests that want to dive just
Speaker 1: that little bit deeper into the shows they're currently making
Speaker 1: so that you can hear all their exclusive stories and
Speaker 1: gain access to the biggest names in television. I want
Speaker 1: to thank you for downloading or subscribing to this podcast.
Speaker 1: I love hearing your feedback, so make sure you leave
Speaker 1: a comment on your chosen podcast platform and I will
Speaker 1: make sure you feel as included as possible in the
Speaker 1: production of this show. This episode of the podcast, I
Speaker 1: have someone I've been chasing to come on the pod
Speaker 1: since the very first episode. It is ITV Studio Australia's
Speaker 1: superstar EP and secret weapon Jarla Webster. Truth be told,
Speaker 1: Jaala is usually locked away working on shows like I'm
Speaker 1: a Celebrity, The Voice and Love Island Australia, especially at
Speaker 1: the times that I usually would feature these shows. It
Speaker 1: made sense to record this episode in the non ratings
Speaker 1: period and this will be my last episode of the
Speaker 1: summer series before I'm fully back on deck in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three. Jala and I met when I was in
Speaker 1: Big Brother through an unusual circumstance, as she produced and
Speaker 1: voiced the show called Little Sister. Of course I was
Speaker 1: a housemate and she was the voice of the title role,
Speaker 1: but there was something extraordinarily magical about the impact that
Speaker 1: she had on the housemates and you as an audience.
Speaker 2: And I'd already signed on to do that twenty twelve
Speaker 2: year a Big Brother and I always say that hilariously,
Speaker 2: that's the show that kind of saved my career, or
Speaker 2: like gave me the love of television again.
Speaker 1: Finding her niche at the time was instrumental in shaping
Speaker 1: where Jaala fit into the Australian television industry.
Speaker 2: That was the first show I'd ever done. It was
Speaker 2: twenty for our turnaround, and like, that's sort of become
Speaker 2: as something that I specialize in these days.
Speaker 1: Having the skill set to know which story is to follow,
Speaker 1: cut and put in the show is a real art form.
Speaker 2: I'm a celebrity. You've got Casey John Evan. She starts
Speaker 2: talking about being catfish and You're like, holy shit, this
Speaker 2: is it, this is happening. We're going to go with
Speaker 2: this story.
Speaker 1: Obviously, we will find out who her favorite contestant of
Speaker 1: all time is.
Speaker 2: It's someone I can tell you now after watching him
Speaker 2: for fifteen sixteen hours a day, like I've never seen
Speaker 2: a person who is more true to themselves.
Speaker 1: I will also ask about the villain edit and how
Speaker 1: complicated it is to tell someone's true story over a season.
Speaker 2: I would never go, well, I'm only going to show
Speaker 2: the nasty parts of this person, because then we've got
Speaker 2: our villain.
Speaker 1: We will also get some pretty exclusive stories from Jarla,
Speaker 1: and I feel like this chat is offering a new
Speaker 1: voice that we really haven't heard from before. However, we
Speaker 1: should probably bring Jarla into the podcast now, and I
Speaker 1: really hope you enjoy this episode. Hi, Jarla, thank you
Speaker 1: for doing the podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello, I'm very nervous.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited to chat with you because you have
Speaker 1: made so many of my favorite shows. I probably should
Speaker 1: ask you what's been your favorite show that you've worked on.
Speaker 1: Is there something that has stayed with you for a
Speaker 1: very long time and feels very much like your own.
Speaker 2: I definitely say Love Island is my favorite show. When
Speaker 2: we went and made season one in Spain, you know,
Speaker 2: we kind of got there and obviously we'd watch the
Speaker 2: show and we knew the format, and we'd worked really
Speaker 2: hard to kind of like think of what we would do,
Speaker 2: and then when you get there and you're like, holy shit,
Speaker 2: this is intense. And we were like, oh god, we're
Speaker 2: way on the staff for this, and we weren't prepared
Speaker 2: and well not prepared for what it actually ended up being.
Speaker 2: And then that was amazing because the whole team, especially
Speaker 2: with my post team, everyone was just like can we
Speaker 2: do this? And it's like, all right, everyone just chuck
Speaker 2: in and we're going to make this thing. And I've
Speaker 2: never seen a group of people pull together more than
Speaker 2: on that show. On that series, as we worked out
Speaker 2: what the show was, and then it kind of evolved
Speaker 2: within the making of that show of like how do
Speaker 2: we make it the Australian version, and a lot of
Speaker 2: that was like we'd thought of things, but then it
Speaker 2: was like, in the heat of the moment, all of
Speaker 2: those things sort of changed and evolved to become the
Speaker 2: very weird show that we now made.
Speaker 1: Well, I want to go back to the start and
Speaker 1: ask you how did you get started in television? Like
Speaker 1: what was it about television that made you want to
Speaker 1: work in it?
Speaker 2: So I thought I was going to be a news
Speaker 2: journal and I went to university to do journalism, and
Speaker 2: when I got there, I was like, oh, I don't
Speaker 2: really like news that much. But there wasn't like reality
Speaker 2: television like literally Big Brother very first season a Big
Speaker 2: Brother in Australia was my first year of university, and
Speaker 2: so being a producer wasn't a thing that you could study, Like,
Speaker 2: there wasn't even really a name for that job yet.
Speaker 2: So I just sort of remember being like, oh, I
Speaker 2: want to do TV, but I don't want to do news,
Speaker 2: so what is that? And it sort of took me
Speaker 2: a few years and then yeah, I kind of ended
Speaker 2: up working like lifestyle television things like that, and then yeah,
Speaker 2: sort of almost like taught myself how to make reality television.
Speaker 2: I was working for a really small production company and
Speaker 2: they got like a pilot that they could make and
Speaker 2: they were like, you're the youngest person in the company,
Speaker 2: so you must know how to make real television. So
Speaker 2: I remember like watching all these episodes of like weird
Speaker 2: shows from America and going, oh, so if there's a scene,
Speaker 2: then you have to do an interview about that scene,
Speaker 2: and then that's where you would cut it in. Like
Speaker 2: I literally watched things and tried to teach myself the
Speaker 2: format of reality and then yeah, eventually I kind of,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously got to be a big girl and
Speaker 2: go and work on big television shows.
Speaker 1: After that, what was the first big show that you
Speaker 1: got to work on.
Speaker 2: I'm still based in Brisbane and I was living in
Speaker 2: Brisbane and I applied to go and work on the
Speaker 2: second season of Master Chef. The first season of Master
Speaker 2: Chef just like blew my mind, Like I think it
Speaker 2: blew the Lord of Australia's mind. It was like the
Speaker 2: production qualities and like the way they made the show. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so I got to go down and I worked on
Speaker 2: the second season of that, and I was so nervous,
Speaker 2: but yes, it all worked out. Fantastically And yeah, no,
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 1: What would you tell yourself now that you're at this
Speaker 1: stage of your career, what advice would you give yourself
Speaker 1: starting on that big you know, it's a huge show master.
Speaker 2: Chef, Probably that just because you've worked on small shows
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're skill set is any different. In fact,
Speaker 2: maybe it makes your skill set bigger when you work
Speaker 2: on really small shows or small productions, like maybe in
Speaker 2: regional places or like smaller you know, kind of areas
Speaker 2: that like you actually have to do everything because there
Speaker 2: isn't like a massive crew, so you actually probably have
Speaker 2: a lot more skills than you realize. So when I
Speaker 2: got there, I was like trying to like lift the
Speaker 2: lights up and help the crew pack down, and they're like,
Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing? That's not your job,
Speaker 2: Go away.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I guess what was your first impression of
Speaker 1: working in Australian television.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think when I first got to Sydney
Speaker 2: and I was working on those bigger shows, one thing
Speaker 2: that like really struck me and inspired me was that
Speaker 2: like a lot of the EPs were women, like a
Speaker 2: huge amount and still to this day, like a huge
Speaker 2: amount of Australian television is run by female EPs and
Speaker 2: watching them do it and just being like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think it was like a whole group of us, you know,
Speaker 2: girls that were kind of like maybe mid twenties at
Speaker 2: that point and thinking I'm going to do that one
Speaker 2: day and there are all the people who are EPs.
Speaker 1: Now, what did working on something like Big Brother teach you?
Speaker 1: And was that a bit of a turning point for
Speaker 1: you in your career in twenty.
Speaker 2: Twelve, Yeah, I was actually thinking about getting out of television,
Speaker 2: and I'd already signed on to do Big Brother. I'd
Speaker 2: had kind of you know, you just sort of have
Speaker 2: a couple of bad jobs and you think, come, maybe
Speaker 2: I'm not good at this anymore. And I'd already signed
Speaker 2: on to do that twenty twelve year a Big Brother,
Speaker 2: And I always say that hilariously, that's the show that
Speaker 2: kind of saved my career or like gave me the
Speaker 2: love of television again. That was the first show I'd
Speaker 2: ever done that was twenty four hour Turnaround and like
Speaker 2: that's sort of become something that I specialize in these days,
Speaker 2: and I love, love, love twenty four hour Turnaround because
Speaker 2: it's it's real it's true. It's literally happening right there
Speaker 2: in front of you. My job on that first season
Speaker 2: was a control room producer, So you're literally sitting in
Speaker 2: the control room watching all of you guys for got
Speaker 2: up to like fifteen hours a day, and it's your
Speaker 2: job because there's obviously, as you know, there's a million
Speaker 2: things happening in that house, so it's your job to
Speaker 2: decide which two things are going on stream because we're
Speaker 2: not recording it everything, so you're constantly hunting around looking
Speaker 2: for stories, going like is there something better happening in
Speaker 2: the bathroom? Is there something better happening in the kitchen?
Speaker 2: And sometimes you kind of flick over and like listen,
Speaker 2: and you'd be like, holy shit, the best thing that's
Speaker 2: ever happened on this show is currently happening, and I
Speaker 2: don't have it on streat. You're like, and it was
Speaker 2: so exciting and it was so yeah, it really It
Speaker 2: completely changed my passion for television and I absolutely love
Speaker 2: Big Brother as a format, and before I did Love Island,
Speaker 2: Big Brother was definitely my favorite.
Speaker 1: I still think Love Island in a way is a
Speaker 1: derivative of.
Speaker 2: Oh exactly because it's it's people. The only shift is
Speaker 2: when I first saw when I first saw Love Island,
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, what they've done. They've taken the
Speaker 2: best part of Big Brother and just made it that
Speaker 2: because like the funnest, most exciting part of any Big
Speaker 2: Brother season is when there's a romance and you're watching
Speaker 2: the brewing romance and you're waiting to see if they're
Speaker 2: actually going to kiss and all of those things. And
Speaker 2: so it's like they've taken like the most exciting storylines
Speaker 2: you can get from Big Brother and made that the format.
Speaker 2: I one hundred percent think they're like one hundredercent linked
Speaker 2: in that sense.
Speaker 1: I think it's why I like Love Island because I
Speaker 1: love Love Island Australia because it does remind me of
Speaker 1: that social experiment element that was so well captured with
Speaker 1: Big Brother. You know, you do get a chance to
Speaker 1: really get to know these people. We get to see
Speaker 1: longer conversations on Love Island Australia, which I absolutely love.
Speaker 1: We actually feel like we get to know these people
Speaker 1: because we can hear everything that they're saying.
Speaker 2: One thing that we did, especially in this past season,
Speaker 2: we had two beach huts, which is basically the die room,
Speaker 2: you know, like where they come and do that kind
Speaker 2: of confessional interview, and we had two of them this year,
Speaker 2: so we could actually do longer interviews with everyone, and
Speaker 2: we spent a lot more time giving them a space
Speaker 2: to really unpack their thoughts and feelings, which in the
Speaker 2: past sometimes you're busy. You know, you've got, like said,
Speaker 2: sometimes you've got like seventeen islanders and you just got
Speaker 2: to punch through all of them. And I think, not
Speaker 2: only are we giving you bigger chunks of their conversations,
Speaker 2: but then we're giving you bigger chunks of their inner monologue,
Speaker 2: which you know, because not everyone says the thing that
Speaker 2: they want to say in a scene, but then if
Speaker 2: they can then kind of explain to you in their interview,
Speaker 2: damn it, this is the thing I wish I'd said
Speaker 2: to him as he was saying that thing to me.
Speaker 2: You have the full kind of experience of them, and
Speaker 2: that's why I think you get to know them better.
Speaker 2: So we worked really hard to give them space to
Speaker 2: give us more in depth kind of in a monologue,
Speaker 2: and then we had really beautiful stuff that we could
Speaker 2: use then in the edit. So I do I think
Speaker 2: we worked really hard to make them very full rounded characters,
Speaker 2: not just I like this boy.
Speaker 1: It was the best season of Love Island I've seen
Speaker 1: from around the world, and I watch it everywhere, and
Speaker 1: it was so It was because it was so funny
Speaker 1: as well, Like I can't remember laughing at any other
Speaker 1: series of any other show as much as I was
Speaker 1: laughing along with these people. The best scene of that
Speaker 1: whole thing was where they were the girls were together
Speaker 1: and they were talking about like mystical creatures and being like,
Speaker 1: do you believe in a mermaid?
Speaker 2: Do you, guys believe in mermaids? I believe in mermaids.
Speaker 2: Every single thing is real, because how.
Speaker 1: Do they come up with that?
Speaker 2: You know, it's like mythological, like all their readings and
Speaker 2: all that, Like, how does someone just like make it that?
Speaker 2: I know, you can't think about it, guys. Is Back
Speaker 2: in the day, people didn't have the eyesight. They didn't
Speaker 2: have the glasses. You could see something, be a shadow.
Speaker 2: They didn't have glasses to help them see so they
Speaker 2: could be like me, right now, I probably think that's
Speaker 2: like a fucking dragon.
Speaker 1: When it's a chair.
Speaker 2: I think all of us are now smarter having born
Speaker 2: witness to this conversation. I mean The other thing from
Speaker 2: that scene, which you know kind of comes back to
Speaker 2: me being a post person, is the way I think
Speaker 2: it was Scottie Rouse cut it. I think they go, look,
Speaker 2: I mean, without my glasses on, down there that chair,
Speaker 2: that could be a dragon, and he cuts to this
Speaker 2: empty shot of a chair, and it just makes it
Speaker 2: so much funnier, you know, like they were very funny
Speaker 2: class and then when they're already giving you funny stuff,
Speaker 2: like we can keep adding on kind of extra layers
Speaker 2: of like visual gags to it. That makes it even funnier.
Speaker 1: So my partner and I we watched all of that together.
Speaker 1: It's one show that we are non negotiable. We have
Speaker 1: to watch the whole thing together. But we now say,
Speaker 1: when we've been drinking, I've had too much to drink.
Speaker 1: I mean, that could be a dragon.
Speaker 2: My favorite part about La Violet is that, like it's
Speaker 2: so dumb, but we're not pretending to be anything other
Speaker 2: than that. But then it gives you all these like
Speaker 2: very just odd kind of references.
Speaker 1: Stella to me and Claudia, they were my favorites, but
Speaker 1: that's because they were so real. They were so willing
Speaker 1: to just be themselves and say silly things, you know.
Speaker 2: Because I think both of them were exactly We never
Speaker 2: showed them to be anything other than exactly who they were,
Speaker 2: and like that is the true blessing of twenty four
Speaker 2: hour turn Around. We don't have time to do anything
Speaker 2: except tell the story for what it is and show
Speaker 2: them to be exactly who they are. And you know,
Speaker 2: I remember the first day that Stella walked into the
Speaker 2: casting room and I was like, this girl has to
Speaker 2: go on the show. Like she just went off on
Speaker 2: this like random thing about she'd gone to buy seven
Speaker 2: lip glosses because she was so nervous about the interview,
Speaker 2: and I was like, did you wear any of the
Speaker 2: lip glosses? And she's like no, but I've got them
Speaker 2: all here. She pulled them out of her handbag and
Speaker 2: I was like, this girl is amazing. And she was
Speaker 2: exactly that on the show. Like she was kind of
Speaker 2: a perfect disaster, you know, but that's who she is,
Speaker 2: so we weren't making her look like a disaster. That's
Speaker 2: just who she is as a person. So that's my
Speaker 2: favorite part about twenty for hours turn Around is that
Speaker 2: like we can only tell what's actually happening, and honestly,
Speaker 2: what happens, especially on the Violin. I mean, Big Brother
Speaker 2: was the same. We couldn't script that shit. Like if
Speaker 2: I went in me and I was like, what's going
Speaker 2: to happen? Is Cassidy who was like shafted by like
Speaker 2: Grant and now's the Taylor and they're clearly in love.
Speaker 2: She's going to pick him again. People be like, that's
Speaker 2: a terrible story arc. I'm like that, no one's gonna
Speaker 2: believe that, But that's the stuff that happens. So it's
Speaker 2: cool in the sense that you're watching it going I
Speaker 2: can't believe they've just done that, And then you go,
Speaker 2: how do I best tell this in the edit? Now? Like,
Speaker 2: what do we bring to the truth of their insane
Speaker 2: choices that's going to make it even more entertaining for
Speaker 2: the audience?
Speaker 1: Well, you brought us something really interesting, and that is
Speaker 1: the audition process. And I mean, you've been quite instrumental
Speaker 1: in getting a lot of people cast on a lot
Speaker 1: of these big shows that you've worked on. Is it
Speaker 1: easy to know that someone in front of you behaving
Speaker 1: a certain way in an interview is going to consistently
Speaker 1: play that once you get them on the show. And
Speaker 1: was there a way in which over time that you've
Speaker 1: been able to try and make sure that happens.
Speaker 2: You would like to believe that you're on it, but
Speaker 2: there's definitely evidence that you can't always be on it,
Speaker 2: Like there is definitely there is a person who I
Speaker 2: won't name, who we put in the Big Brother House
Speaker 2: one of the years that I did it, and I
Speaker 2: was convinced that they were the biggest, greatest star that
Speaker 2: we had ever ever met, and they just crumbled in
Speaker 2: the house. And that's not to say that they faked
Speaker 2: it with us, but I think environments can affect people.
Speaker 2: And you can speak to this obviously because you lived
Speaker 2: in that environment. Not everyone can live in a weird
Speaker 2: bubble universe like Big Brother or like Love Island, or
Speaker 2: like I'm a celebrity. So I don't think people necessarily
Speaker 2: have faked us out. It's just that the version of
Speaker 2: that we saw when they were happy and free and
Speaker 2: living their life and seeing their friends and family isn't
Speaker 2: going to be the version of themselves that necessarily comes
Speaker 2: through in the villa or the house or something like that.
Speaker 2: But every now and then you get caught out and
Speaker 2: you think, shit, yeah, we've stuffed it up here.
Speaker 1: My mind's thinking about who this person is. Over I've
Speaker 1: got lots of theories, but I remember very clearly the
Speaker 1: last There was two things that Alex said to me
Speaker 1: before I went into the house. I was literally it
Speaker 1: was nighttime. It was twelve thirty at night and the
Speaker 1: doors were about to open, and he said, just don't
Speaker 1: stop talking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my biggest thing with anyone in any reality, So
Speaker 2: whether it's a you know, you're trapped in a house
Speaker 2: kind of or mastership, it's like you have to go
Speaker 2: with the experience. Don't fight against it. The worst possible
Speaker 2: thing you can do is fight against the experience because
Speaker 2: you're gonna have a shit time. You're going to constantly
Speaker 2: wonder why you're there, and you're not going to be
Speaker 2: giving the best version of yourself, Like you're not going
Speaker 2: to be coming up great in the edit because like
Speaker 2: you're clearly unhappy. Like you have to go in and
Speaker 2: want to participate, Like don't be a person sitting in
Speaker 2: the background watching stuff and being kind of cynical about it,
Speaker 2: like be part of the thing. Like not that many
Speaker 2: people get to do this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I pretty much thought, but from my experience with
Speaker 1: Big Brother was that if anything was happening in the house.
Speaker 1: I had to be somehow involved, and I had to
Speaker 1: be really raw, and I had to be like because
Speaker 1: it was uncomfortable to watch back at times. And I
Speaker 1: think that's sometimes how contestants think they don't like the edit,
Speaker 1: But when you are truly being yourself and being unfiltered,
Speaker 1: it is uncomfortable. But it's real, you know.
Speaker 2: Like lots of people always like, oh, the edit made
Speaker 2: me look bad, and you know, I don't have that
Speaker 2: much power, you know, like if you said or did
Speaker 2: something uncomfortable, shitty, mean, I can't make you have said that,
Speaker 2: you know, frank and grabbing doesn't work that way for
Speaker 2: the most part. I can maybe heighten that by the
Speaker 2: music choice of putting behind it or the next scene
Speaker 2: I play that comes straight after that to kind of
Speaker 2: juxtapose what's just happened. But I can't make you unhappy, nasty,
Speaker 2: you know, vindictive. I can't make you those things unless
Speaker 2: there was an essence of that already there. So but
Speaker 2: I do think it's just that it's hard for people
Speaker 2: because no one really likes to think of themselves as
Speaker 2: any of those negative qualities. So when you see it
Speaker 2: on screen, you're like that's not me. And it's like, well,
Speaker 2: it wasn't that moment, but maybe there's a reason why
Speaker 2: you were that way. Your feelings were hurt, you were
Speaker 2: kind of feeling cornered. It's like you blashed out in
Speaker 2: the heated moment. That doesn't define you as a person,
Speaker 2: but that's how he felt in that moment.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when people say those moments, they're
Speaker 1: the best moments of these shows. When people say things
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh God, that's embarrassing, but that's what's
Speaker 1: going to make us connect to you. And I think
Speaker 1: sometimes you kind of have to not worry about what
Speaker 1: the audience are thinking of you.
Speaker 2: You kind of just have to be like that possible
Speaker 2: reality participant is a person who's thinking about what the
Speaker 2: audience is thinking of them.
Speaker 1: You can't curate it, No, you just can't. You know,
Speaker 1: you played this little sister role in Big Brother when
Speaker 1: I was there, and it kind of has a cult status,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask you about that role, like
Speaker 1: how did that come about? Because why wasn't Big Brother
Speaker 1: just Big Brother to do that part of the show
Speaker 1: and ask us how we were feeling, you know, was
Speaker 1: it something that you put together and thought, no, we
Speaker 1: need to create this secondary character because that may get more.
Speaker 1: It did get more, but you know.
Speaker 2: I would like it's completely by accident. There was a
Speaker 2: day that Alex and Sirius producer at the time, Matt Bath,
Speaker 2: were like, let's just have Big Brother go on holiday
Speaker 2: for the day. Because the idea was that we didn't
Speaker 2: want to produce you guys so much through Big Brothers interactions.
Speaker 2: So we said, big Brothers on break for the day.
Speaker 2: You guys do whatever you want, and you guys took
Speaker 2: it upon yourselves to stay in bed for four hours.
Speaker 2: You were like, we're not getting out of bed because
Speaker 2: we don't have to because Big Brother A and here,
Speaker 2: and I was the controller and producer on that day
Speaker 2: and I just remember calling that and going westcrewed. We
Speaker 2: got no scenes right now, Like we got one scene
Speaker 2: out of like the last four hours, Like I don't
Speaker 2: know how we're going to make a show. And he
Speaker 2: came back and he's like, do you want to be
Speaker 2: a little sister, because we're going to tell them that
Speaker 2: like little sister, we gonna come in and read everyone
Speaker 2: up and be like get out of bed, which we did,
Speaker 2: which was solely just for trying to get some content
Speaker 2: out of that day. I mean, can tell this story better.
Speaker 2: Network wanted another thirty minutes worth of a show, and
Speaker 2: he had the idea in the shower and he pitched
Speaker 2: it to them that it was going to be this
Speaker 2: little sister thing, and you know, little sister could ask
Speaker 2: questions a big brother couldn't ask. And I got called
Speaker 2: in after I'd done a full night shift and it
Speaker 2: was like, can you get here right now? And I
Speaker 2: got there and the like, right, so, you've got your
Speaker 2: own show, You've got a voice it, you've got to
Speaker 2: produce it, you've got to edit it, and it's going
Speaker 2: to air in two days time. So I yes, was terrified,
Speaker 2: and then I just jumped into it. And I kept
Speaker 2: thinking because I had I'd spent so much time watching
Speaker 2: you guys, like you said, like I was watching you
Speaker 2: guys sometimes fifteen hours a day, So how I knew
Speaker 2: all the things that you guys were maybe feeling and
Speaker 2: not saying, or stories that you'd started to tell and
Speaker 2: someone had cut you off in a group setting. So
Speaker 2: it's kind of like I remember, like you and Estelle
Speaker 2: in particular, were people that I was like, I remember
Speaker 2: you were starting to tell your story of say, coming out,
Speaker 2: and I was like, you never got to tell that properly,
Speaker 2: and I kind of wanted to hear it just partly
Speaker 2: from myself, but I knew the audience would be really
Speaker 2: connected to that. So I remember like being really with girls,
Speaker 2: like you don't have to tell this story to me
Speaker 2: if you don't want to, but you know, like I
Speaker 2: wanted to give you that platform to like tell that
Speaker 2: in your own way and like really like share that
Speaker 2: and own that. Would you mind telling me about when
Speaker 2: you came out to your family?
Speaker 1: People understood my sexual orientation before I did, and in
Speaker 1: that I rebelled against the notion and the idea that
Speaker 1: I was gay, and it took me some time to
Speaker 1: be comfortable with my sexuality and then tell my friends
Speaker 1: and my family.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it was. It was a completely accidental thing.
Speaker 2: And the whole reason the show we even became a
Speaker 2: show was just because the network wanted an extra thirty
Speaker 2: minutes of content for a few weeks.
Speaker 1: But you were fantastic with the way in which you
Speaker 1: got that out of us. I mean, that's a real
Speaker 1: skill set in itself. Did it make you want to
Speaker 1: go in front of the camera because you did get
Speaker 1: this opportunity to be a big part of that show
Speaker 1: and you were so good at it. Did it make
Speaker 1: you think, oh, well, I could be in front of
Speaker 1: the camera as well as behind.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. I mean, when I was younger,
Speaker 2: as I thought I was going to be a journal
Speaker 2: so I kind of thought I was going to be
Speaker 2: on camera. But the more and more you go in television,
Speaker 2: or for me at least, I kind of just kept
Speaker 2: realizing that, like the real creative power, at least the
Speaker 2: sort that I like, is in making the show, you know,
Speaker 2: and like especially I kind of fell into post by accident.
Speaker 2: I've only been doing that maybe for the last sort
Speaker 2: of five or six years, but even more so, like
Speaker 2: there's so much power and the choices that you make
Speaker 2: in the edit of what you're making people feel, what
Speaker 2: parts of the story they're seeing, and not in a
Speaker 2: bad way where it's like I'm taking this away so
Speaker 2: you feel this and you don't feel this, but it's
Speaker 2: like the choices that are getting made will bring the
Speaker 2: whole thing together. So I think I feel more creative
Speaker 2: power in the being the behind the scenes.
Speaker 1: You know, you've worked with Alex Maverdikis as I mentioned
Speaker 1: him before, but you've worked with him a lot. What
Speaker 1: is it about your working relationship with him that works
Speaker 1: so well and makes such good television?
Speaker 2: Alex is a big ideas man, you know, and he
Speaker 2: is I think the best in the bits of just
Speaker 2: coming up with random shit right on the spot there
Speaker 2: and like things that no one else has kind of
Speaker 2: thought of. And then I would say myself and Remo,
Speaker 2: who normally works with him on I'm a Celebrity, would
Speaker 2: also fall into this category where the ones that then
Speaker 2: have to make those ideas make sense. So I think
Speaker 2: we're both really good at like taking that idea and
Speaker 2: then like how do you actually make that idea work?
Speaker 2: Like the David you know, last year's Fake Celebrity is
Speaker 2: a prime example of that. Like they pitched and I
Speaker 2: was like, great idea, sexy, cool, amazing, and then it's like,
Speaker 2: but how does this actually work? Like even just like
Speaker 2: the mission statement at the very start of that first
Speaker 2: episode where it's like this is what we're doing, It's
Speaker 2: like we spend so much time trying to work how
Speaker 2: much information do you give in that? And like how
Speaker 2: do you explain the audience where they're going to get
Speaker 2: it straight away. It's like, you know, it's those ditty
Speaker 2: gritty things. So I think Alex is the big ideas man,
Speaker 2: I kind of work out how to make those ideas work.
Speaker 2: And then the other thing is Alex is all the humor,
Speaker 2: and I'm like to think I can be mildly entertaining
Speaker 2: and funny at times as well, but then I think
Speaker 2: I bring a lot more at the heart. So I
Speaker 2: think even in our personalities, that's very much our balance.
Speaker 2: Alex is the big brash one, and I'm the one
Speaker 2: that will come in and give you a hug. So
Speaker 2: I think that's the kind of like perfect balance between
Speaker 2: the two things.
Speaker 1: I'm always fascinated on how you can get hundreds of
Speaker 1: hours down to a tight and engaging show, you know,
Speaker 1: from the footage being collected to their sort of final
Speaker 1: edit process. How are you doing this? Like is there
Speaker 1: a way to even summarize.
Speaker 2: That when you're working on something like say the Voice,
Speaker 2: because I do that as well, and that's a long
Speaker 2: form edit, so that's in a more traditional sense, we're
Speaker 2: not putting out an episode every day. Sometimes that can
Speaker 2: be harder, I think, because like you're looking at everything
Speaker 2: and you're like really digging down into it and you're like, well,
Speaker 2: we could go this direction or this direction or this direction.
Speaker 2: Whereas on something like I'm a Celeb and Love Island,
Speaker 2: you got instinct to make a choice and you follow
Speaker 2: that choice, and even if you kind of halfway through
Speaker 2: and go, I don't know if this was necessarily the
Speaker 2: right choice, there ain't no time to go back, so
Speaker 2: you just got to kind of follow through with it
Speaker 2: and make it the best choice. But I think with
Speaker 2: those shows, it's blatantly obvious what the big story arc
Speaker 2: of the day is. Generally, sometimes that doesn't become clear
Speaker 2: until later in the evening, and then I think it's
Speaker 2: about filling in the gaps around that big kind of
Speaker 2: story arc or like the big moments that have happened.
Speaker 2: And sometimes it's like finding like little things that like
Speaker 2: don't even fit with the story. Like there was a
Speaker 2: scene in the season that we just did where like
Speaker 2: Tack and Stellar are sitting this is early on outside
Speaker 2: they're talking about rapping. She's going to stilly rap with him,
Speaker 2: and then he kind of just says, oh, it's been
Speaker 2: a bit hard in here. It's like not what I
Speaker 2: thought it was. Going to be like and it's hard
Speaker 2: sometimes when you're not the first pick. And the thing
Speaker 2: is that story didn't attach to anything. There was no
Speaker 2: tack in Stellar storyline in that episode. There was no
Speaker 2: kind of reason to show that scene because normally you're
Speaker 2: looking at like I need the building blocks to get
Speaker 2: to the endpoint of something like there was no toupling
Speaker 2: up we're going to see Stellar attack together or anything
Speaker 2: like that. But it was such a beautiful scene that
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, I have to put it in. It
Speaker 2: doesn't matter that it doesn't fit with the big story up.
Speaker 2: So I think it's like you've got the big things
Speaker 2: that have to go in, and then you're looking for
Speaker 2: either those really beautiful scenes or like a Unicorn I
Speaker 2: believe in Unicorn scene. That's not necessary, No one needs
Speaker 2: to know that piece of information, but it's really really funny.
Speaker 2: So it's like every episode, you know the stuff that
Speaker 2: has to go in because it's going to feed through
Speaker 2: the storylines. And then you're looking for those little moments
Speaker 2: that are like character pieces that are just like either
Speaker 2: heartwarming ridiculous, and that's how you kind of make your decisions.
Speaker 1: This might seem like a really boring question, But like,
Speaker 1: you know, are you on set at all times watching
Speaker 1: this through a control room? And how do you say
Speaker 1: to the camera man, like put that in the tank
Speaker 1: because I'm going to work on that later and cut
Speaker 1: it up and make it what it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So when it's true twenty four hour Turnaround, you
Speaker 2: know where we're literally we're about to go back and
Speaker 2: do it after COVID again with I'm a celebrity, So
Speaker 2: with something like that, there's a control room. I don't
Speaker 2: normally sit in the control when we're doing true twenty
Speaker 2: four hour turn Around, I'll be sitting kind of in
Speaker 2: a like an row of edit sweets, and we have
Speaker 2: what we call the quad, which has basically got your
Speaker 2: A story and your B story that are coming through.
Speaker 2: And I'm just watching that constantly while doing other things.
Speaker 2: And if I see a scene, say this is a
Speaker 2: year's old example, but like I'm a celebrity, You've got
Speaker 2: Casey Donovan. She starts talking about being catfish and You're like,
Speaker 2: holy shit, this is it, this is happening. We're going
Speaker 2: to go with this story. Obviously, it normally takes us
Speaker 2: twenty minutes to get that vision in, so like the
Speaker 2: scene might not even be finished yet, and I'll have
Speaker 2: it back into an edit suite and people are starting
Speaker 2: to do like a cut down of it, and then
Speaker 2: from there you obviously you would go into the control room.
Speaker 2: Everyone would know we're covering that story because it's amazing,
Speaker 2: but it's like, here's the questions that we need to
Speaker 2: ask Casey when we get her into the top talkie,
Speaker 2: which is their diary room, And here's how we need
Speaker 2: to dig down on those things so that we can
Speaker 2: really fill out the story. Because even with that one,
Speaker 2: she told the story in a very matter of fact
Speaker 2: way in that scene, and people who have been through
Speaker 2: something kind of sad or traumatic like often almost tell
Speaker 2: those stories like a robot. I've noticed that, like heaps
Speaker 2: on things with like the voice. It's like, why are
Speaker 2: they sad while they're telling the story. It's well, they've
Speaker 2: told it so many times that they kind of have
Speaker 2: to protect themselves. Here's the facts, here's what happened.
Speaker 1: Yes, that was sad, And that's where you're like, I
Speaker 1: need to ask this in the tiktoki to make them cry,
Speaker 1: to give the emotion.
Speaker 2: Yes, to some extent, I mean not that I'm trying
Speaker 2: to make it cry, but you know like it was
Speaker 2: it was the interview that sold that scene. So you
Speaker 2: are always looking for, like, I want to dig a
Speaker 2: bit deeper. I want to know how you actually felt
Speaker 2: about that, as opposed to you just repeating the facts
Speaker 2: of that thing that had happened to you. So that's
Speaker 2: kind of how we do it. So then you like,
Speaker 2: so sometimes a scene will go for forty minutes, You've
Speaker 2: got to cut it down to two and a half
Speaker 2: or three good minutes of that. So there's just a
Speaker 2: process of refining. It's like, don't need that part of
Speaker 2: the story, don't need that part of the story. You
Speaker 2: get it down to like normally maybe like a seven
Speaker 2: minute edit. Have these are all the good bits. Then
Speaker 2: it's like which good bits are we throwing out now?
Speaker 2: Like which babies are we going to kill? And then
Speaker 2: you start looking at adding in your interview. So that's
Speaker 2: kind of how it happens when it's like true twenty
Speaker 2: four hour turn around. But the last few seasons of
Speaker 2: like Love Island and I'm a Celebrity, we've been slightly
Speaker 2: delayed with the quose. So then I am sitting in
Speaker 2: the back of the control room watching the scenes going
Speaker 2: like that's a fucking scene. It's just sort of like
Speaker 2: you've got notes ready to go so that you can
Speaker 2: pass that through a post when it gets to them.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that the shows that you make feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, investing in human experiment, which is kind of
Speaker 1: where reality TV comes from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is always just and you know,
Speaker 2: by the end of it, sometimes I hate them, but
Speaker 2: like I go into every series loving everyone, and I
Speaker 2: love them and I want them to do well, and
Speaker 2: I want them to be amazing characters, and I want
Speaker 2: them to share every part of themselves. And it's almost
Speaker 2: like by willing them into that and like giving them
Speaker 2: the platform and trying to ask the right questions in
Speaker 2: the in the diar room or the top talky if
Speaker 2: you've got if you got it in the moment, then
Speaker 2: of course I can put it in the edit. And
Speaker 2: if you didn't get it in the moment, sometimes you
Speaker 2: can kind of trick it up to make it seem
Speaker 2: like you got it in the edit. But it's like,
Speaker 2: I just I don't think you ever want to watch
Speaker 2: not anymore. Oncepon a time, reality television had to be
Speaker 2: very much like A equals A plus vehicles c Because
Speaker 2: it was a new format, but like we've been watching
Speaker 2: this stuff for twenty two years now, Like people don't
Speaker 2: need to see all of those pieces, So don't just
Speaker 2: go aplus vehicle C. Like you could start with A,
Speaker 2: only tell a tiny bit of B, but then like
Speaker 2: give way more of C because it's going to make
Speaker 2: you feel more, So you don't have to follow all
Speaker 2: those rules. It's like, do I either feel like joyful, sad,
Speaker 2: pissing myself laughing, or like want to cry? Like you
Speaker 2: shouldn't be feeling many other things in between that of
Speaker 2: watching television shows, because otherwise what are you watching it for?
Speaker 1: Do you try and keep a wall between I mean
Speaker 1: it was interest before you were saying about when the
Speaker 1: show starts, you love all of them. You know you
Speaker 1: love all the contestants, but do you pick a favorite?
Speaker 1: Like is it just human nature that as the show
Speaker 1: goes on that you as a person resonate with particular participants.
Speaker 2: I think definitely, there's always like ones that you resonate
Speaker 2: more with. My favorites are always and these will be
Speaker 2: different to how other people. For lots of times, people
Speaker 2: like I hate that contestant. They're annoying the shit out
Speaker 2: of me, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: I love them. The ones I love are the people
Speaker 2: who came to work because my biggest fear is, and
Speaker 2: I've been in this situation, is that you get to
Speaker 2: like two hours out from a show about to go
Speaker 2: to war, and you don't have enough content. We don't
Speaker 2: have enough good content. You're having to put stuff that
Speaker 2: you don't think should be in the show to air
Speaker 2: because you've got to fill the minutes. In my mind,
Speaker 2: being a reality contestant in whatever format.
Speaker 1: Is a job.
Speaker 2: Like you are there to work. So anyone who comes,
Speaker 2: they wake up every day and they think, right, what
Speaker 2: am I going to do today? And you said this yourself.
Speaker 2: It's like, if there's something happening, I should go and
Speaker 2: get involved in it. Not there just to have a nap.
Speaker 2: Like that's not television. You know. Lots of people do
Speaker 2: they come and they just nap while they're on these shows,
Speaker 2: and you're like, what are you doing? Mate?
Speaker 1: I think they're the ones that goggle box the show
Speaker 1: inside the show, and it happens all the time, and
Speaker 1: I'll watch shows and I'll be like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: what the hell is this person goggle boxing this show
Speaker 1: within that the situation, it's a wasted person. It should
Speaker 1: be someone else, you know, yes.
Speaker 2: And you know, like they're the people that we probably
Speaker 2: got like slightly tricked by in the you know, in
Speaker 2: the casting room and you're like, God, damn it, come
Speaker 2: and do something. But you know, my favorites are always
Speaker 2: the ones that actually work and they give me content.
Speaker 2: And they're not necessarily like being camera hogs or like,
Speaker 2: you know, camera sluts Saroughly, they're just people who are
Speaker 2: like I came here to have the full experience, so
Speaker 2: I'm going to have the full experience, and then that
Speaker 2: obviously translates normally for me to the content. So they're
Speaker 2: my favorites.
Speaker 1: I interview a lot of reality TV and does it's
Speaker 1: not just people behind the scenes, and I often say,
Speaker 1: I love you on this show. I've asked you to
Speaker 1: be on the podcast because you wanted to buy the
Speaker 1: show back, and you bought the Love Island and showback.
Speaker 1: You got all the things that you could possibly get
Speaker 1: out of it, and you've walked away with the reward.
Speaker 1: It's an interesting way do you try and keep a
Speaker 1: wall between the talent and yourself, because I mean that
Speaker 1: must be quite a surreal. Part of the process is
Speaker 1: that you've watched these people for so long, you've put
Speaker 1: this stuff together. What's the process like in your mind?
Speaker 1: Do you want to meet them after the show's over
Speaker 1: to have a conversation or do you just is it
Speaker 1: like a big meal you just push the plate away
Speaker 1: and run.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for the most part, I think maybe when I
Speaker 2: was younger, I wanted to like sometimes I wanted to
Speaker 2: meet like, especially after I've done Little Sister with you guys,
Speaker 2: I wanted to meet you guys because obviously we've had
Speaker 2: some pretty you.
Speaker 1: Know, intense conversations stations.
Speaker 2: But yeah, now it's this hilarious thing because a lot
Speaker 2: of the time I won't meet any of them before
Speaker 2: even they go into the show, or if I do,
Speaker 2: it's like once on, you know, like the day that
Speaker 2: we shoot the backstories, and so I'm just some random
Speaker 2: lady that's asking them to dance in ne bikini. So
Speaker 2: they don't have any sense of like how much I
Speaker 2: know them, Like I know these people so intimately. I
Speaker 2: know every thought and feeling and like what time they
Speaker 2: go to the bathroom and all sorts of weird things
Speaker 2: about these people. And when I'm in it. I'm so
Speaker 2: in it that I frustratingly it drives me crazy. But
Speaker 2: I dream constantly about the show that I'm making, So
Speaker 2: you guys are in my dreams all the time. But
Speaker 2: for that reason, as soon as it's over, it's almost
Speaker 2: like I just wipe the slave. It's like I try
Speaker 2: and blank it all out because at some point I'm
Speaker 2: going to have to put a whole new group of
Speaker 2: people in my brain and let them move in there.
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, I think it's better for me.
Speaker 1: To push the plate away.
Speaker 2: Then push the plate away.
Speaker 1: Do you find did you find though, when you met people,
Speaker 1: you know, after work on the show, and then you
Speaker 1: would get a chance to be with them, that they
Speaker 1: were the same.
Speaker 2: Because I'm seeing the whole fifteen hours or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: So I'm seeing them when they're on and I'm seeing
Speaker 2: them when they've had a shit time and they're having
Speaker 2: a cry in the you know, in the diary room
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. So I think because I've got
Speaker 2: a broader spectrum of the whole experience that they've had
Speaker 2: each day, for the most part, I think people feel
Speaker 2: like so I always feel like I know those characters
Speaker 2: extremely well because I've seen the goodad, so no. I mean,
Speaker 2: for me, I think it feels like they're kind of
Speaker 2: the same. But I can see if you were maybe
Speaker 2: either a viewer or you were in the experience with people,
Speaker 2: they would seem different once you got out.
Speaker 1: The question I also had for you was do you
Speaker 1: think that reality TV will reinvent itself in the coming
Speaker 1: years because you've been working at it for so long
Speaker 1: that you've seen stages of it, you know, where there's
Speaker 1: been live turnaround and unfortunately with COVID making a lot
Speaker 1: of these shows pre recorded, you know these this space
Speaker 1: of reality TV continuously changes. You know, do you think
Speaker 1: it's going to reinvent itself again in the next coming years.
Speaker 2: I mean it's inevitable because you know, people kind of keep,
Speaker 2: I think, almost hoping that reality television is going to
Speaker 2: go away, But you know, twenty two years on, with
Speaker 2: everyone still watching it, I think it kind of has
Speaker 2: to keep reinventing itself, in part just because the audience
Speaker 2: keeps getting savvier to the tricks of the shows. So
Speaker 2: it's almost like I kind of think you either need
Speaker 2: to you either go back old school, and I don't
Speaker 2: know whether any network would ever be brave enough to
Speaker 2: do this, and you just do pure social experiment. But
Speaker 2: that gets really hard because obviously even the contestants are savvy.
Speaker 2: But like go back to like really just leaving people
Speaker 2: alone and just seeing what they do. Or when I
Speaker 2: was working in I was working New York for a
Speaker 2: few years and I was working on a show called
Speaker 2: teen momog and that had evolved in a weird way
Speaker 2: where they started using the scenes with the producers, not
Speaker 2: all the time, just sometimes. And that was because those
Speaker 2: girls had been on show since they was sixteen. They're
Speaker 2: now about I think Macy was about twenty four at
Speaker 2: that point when I was working with her, so they've
Speaker 2: been reality stars for like eight years. And sometimes they'd
Speaker 2: be like, I'm not going to do that because you know,
Speaker 2: they've been on the show for so long since they
Speaker 2: can do that. And then they started using the scenes
Speaker 2: of them saying like why they didn't want to do
Speaker 2: that scene, or like why they didn't want to have
Speaker 2: a conversation with the producer, and using that in the
Speaker 2: edit because that in itself was actually now part of
Speaker 2: their story, you know, like the fight against like which
Speaker 2: parts of themselves they did or didn't want to show,
Speaker 2: the audience was actually part of their story. So some ways,
Speaker 2: it's like like peeling back the curtain a little bit further,
Speaker 2: not saying you should have producers in your show, but
Speaker 2: maybe that's sort of something that also needs to kind
Speaker 2: of keep evolving, just because I think the audience are like, well,
Speaker 2: we know there's producers in the room with you, so
Speaker 2: it's like, don't pretend that those things aren't happening. But yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, it's like it's always going
Speaker 2: to keep evolving. I have no real idea where any
Speaker 2: of it's.
Speaker 1: Going to go. Is there anything that you'd like to
Speaker 1: see changed? Do you want to say less of stylized editing.
Speaker 1: I guess that's sort of stepping I.
Speaker 2: Mean, I'm I'm like the number one advocate for stylized editing,
Speaker 2: So if anything, I would say one thing that I've
Speaker 2: been really lucky with all of my shows is that
Speaker 2: the networks have kind of let me and my editors
Speaker 2: off the leash. And that doesn't mean that we're like
Speaker 2: cutting everything like insanely fast. Sometimes we do th cut
Speaker 2: things insanely fast because it gives you a feeling, but
Speaker 2: you know, like it's sort of being able to Like
Speaker 2: I said before, it's like skipping some of the storytelling
Speaker 2: steps because the audience doesn't need to know every single
Speaker 2: piece of information for it to make sense to them.
Speaker 2: The audience is extremely smart and savvy to how reality
Speaker 2: television works. Now. I think maybe it would be like
Speaker 2: some of those very formatted shows like Letting the Reins
Speaker 2: Off a little bit more probably, but that's more just
Speaker 2: that something that I stylistically like. I like it when
Speaker 2: things are kind of loose and you don't have to
Speaker 2: stick to a structure. But you know, some people the
Speaker 2: structure is the thing that they like about watching those shows.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I have reviewed to show yesterday where it
Speaker 1: was like this big show from the UK. It's not
Speaker 1: from here, and I don't want to mention the name
Speaker 1: of the show because the network centered to me and
Speaker 1: it's not out yet. But it was so formulated, it
Speaker 1: was so structured reality TV structure for this new concept,
Speaker 1: and it just felt so same same me that even
Speaker 1: though so many elements of it were amazing, it had
Speaker 1: no tone, it had no pulse, and I was like
Speaker 1: rigid and they were just going through the motions. It
Speaker 1: was like big entrance here. Interview that person now and then,
Speaker 1: and everything was working and everyone was firing, and all
Speaker 1: the judges were saying things at the right time. They
Speaker 1: had their little one liner, and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: this show's going to bomb.
Speaker 2: Like we a few years ago, we kind of changed
Speaker 2: the way that we cut the Voice completely. And you know,
Speaker 2: obviously the chairs still turn, people still sing, like you
Speaker 2: don't change the format of the show, but we changed
Speaker 2: the way that we were cutting it. And that's kind
Speaker 2: of when it had its renaissance of sorts. And I
Speaker 2: don't think it's an audience you would even realize it
Speaker 2: was being cut differently. You probably just felt different as
Speaker 2: you were watching it.
Speaker 1: Are you talking about the first time that we got
Speaker 1: to see Rita or and Jessica Melboy?
Speaker 2: I think it was two seasons before that is when
Speaker 2: I started on the Voice, and Lee and Chloe had
Speaker 2: sort of just been trying to make it a bit
Speaker 2: edgier and cooler for a few years, and then we
Speaker 2: kind of brought in a I sort of started on,
Speaker 2: We brought in sort of quite a few different editors,
Speaker 2: and we just kind of tried to start making a
Speaker 2: bit cooler and a bit sexier because it's like a
Speaker 2: very cool format and you've got cool judges and like
Speaker 2: great performances and great staging, but it was just kind
Speaker 2: of being cut in a very structured maybe format, like
Speaker 2: it was sort of just it felt a bit old
Speaker 2: fashioned to me at least, and so you know, we
Speaker 2: had all these cool things that were already happening, and
Speaker 2: then we just started cutting it differently and then yes,
Speaker 2: the reader Aura kind of season like that was using
Speaker 2: all the same tools but all the same tricks, but
Speaker 2: it's just like you want to feel something as you're
Speaker 2: watching it. It like we I guess it was just
Speaker 2: by like taking out some of that structure and that
Speaker 2: like rigid formatting kind of of like Noll, it has
Speaker 2: to be cut this way, then it just kind of
Speaker 2: felt fresher. And I think before that, like I remember
Speaker 2: one of the editors who had worked on a previous
Speaker 2: season had been like, oh, I was told I can't
Speaker 2: use dips to black, and I was like, what what
Speaker 2: does that mean? It was like, oh, we just don't
Speaker 2: do that on this show. And there's lots of shows
Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, we just don't do that on
Speaker 2: this show. But I'm always like, do whatever you want,
Speaker 2: Like if it makes it better, like if it makes
Speaker 2: you feel something like, cut it however you want. So
Speaker 2: I almost like probably to like some people's horror. Like
Speaker 2: I don't really have any rules of like how we
Speaker 2: cut things other than staying within like the parts of
Speaker 2: the format that we have to keep to make the
Speaker 2: show makes sense. But it's just like, yeah, if you
Speaker 2: want to do a dip to black, if you want
Speaker 2: to do like some crazy music montage in this section,
Speaker 2: like let's just do it if it makes it feel better,
Speaker 2: And like sometimes we do that stuff and then we're
Speaker 2: like it feels a bit indulgent, whanky that bit, doesn't it,
Speaker 2: So let's just take that pack out again. But like,
Speaker 2: giving people the freedom to like try different ways to
Speaker 2: cut things and try different ways to tell those stories
Speaker 2: is cool because like you never know what someone's going
Speaker 2: to come up with.
Speaker 1: Well, trust your instinct. I think that's what's important when
Speaker 1: it comes to telling stories. I think that you have
Speaker 1: to feel it. And then you know. I was going
Speaker 1: to ask, do you ever get asked by Alex which
Speaker 1: celebrities you want on I'm a celebrity to get me
Speaker 1: out of here, and have you got like a list
Speaker 1: of celebrities that you keep asking to do the show.
Speaker 2: No, I tell you the truth, I leave that alone.
Speaker 2: The one person that I really wanted on the show
Speaker 2: with Dylan, So when we got you know, he'd been
Speaker 2: kind of tossed around like the previous series as well.
Speaker 2: I was really sad that we hadn't got Dylan on
Speaker 2: the show. And then when I found out we had him,
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I'm so excited. And then he
Speaker 2: was like everything you wanted him to be in more,
Speaker 2: you know, like he is like and he's someone I
Speaker 2: can tell you now after watching him for fifteen sixteen
Speaker 2: hours a day, like I've never seen a person who
Speaker 2: is more true to themselves and just nice. God, he's
Speaker 2: the loveliest man, insanely lovely. So yes, he was probably
Speaker 2: one of my favorites. I think Casey Donovan I loved
Speaker 2: it when she was on the show. I think that
Speaker 2: whole series, like Casey, Nazim, Steve Price, like that was
Speaker 2: such an interesting collection of people that shouldn't have all
Speaker 2: been in a room together getting along, but they were
Speaker 2: and it was awesome. So No, I kind of I
Speaker 2: try not to get too involved in casting for celeb.
Speaker 1: I just wondered whether you'd be like, you know, Alex,
Speaker 1: You've got to get this person on. He's like, no,
Speaker 1: you know, and then you feel like you have to
Speaker 1: pitch them.
Speaker 2: I always the one thing I always say to Alex
Speaker 2: is we have to have our winning formula has been
Speaker 2: Heartland kind of chicks, so like Brook one fill that
Speaker 2: kind of role. You need to have someone who is
Speaker 2: a celebrity but is very very down to earth and
Speaker 2: good at taking the piss out of themselves and other people.
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that kind of like
Speaker 2: balances out all of the celebrity kind of factor of
Speaker 2: the show. So I'm a big fan of that kind
Speaker 2: of a character in the mix. And we've gotten that
Speaker 2: ride the last two seasons in particular, like just like
Speaker 2: that person has sewn the whole show together. If you
Speaker 2: hadn't had Jessel Brook, I don't think the shows would
Speaker 2: have been in any way what they were. And I
Speaker 2: also always love it when we have someone who is
Speaker 2: genuinely musically talented, because it is awesome to see Paulinie
Speaker 2: and Jack, Like I just remember hearing Paulini sing one
Speaker 2: day and she was amazing and I and I was like, God,
Speaker 2: I really want to be able to like put something
Speaker 2: to air, and so I was like, what's the song
Speaker 2: that we don't have to pay for because obviously we
Speaker 2: don't have the you know, the right that we don't
Speaker 2: have to pay for. And we were like, amazing Grace.
Speaker 2: So we literally went to Pauline and we were like,
Speaker 2: you should sing amazing Grace. And then she went and
Speaker 2: grabbed Jack and it became like one of the pivotal
Speaker 2: moments of that series. But it's just because I was like, gosh,
Speaker 2: she's so talented, Like I just want people to hear
Speaker 2: how good she can sing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know. What was interesting about Abby Chatfield though,
Speaker 1: was that I spoke to a lot of people that
Speaker 1: were in that series, and half of them were like,
Speaker 1: loved Abbie Chatfield, and the other half thought she was
Speaker 1: quite villainous, you know, And so I wondered, is their
Speaker 1: personality types like abbach Hatfield, where you could edit them
Speaker 1: to be brilliant or you could edit them to be
Speaker 1: the villain? Like are there people like that? I mean,
Speaker 1: Aby Chatfield, she puts so much content out there that
Speaker 1: it would be very easy to just either pick a
Speaker 1: string of content that makes her glowing and amazing that
Speaker 1: fits in line with how some people are seeing her.
Speaker 2: Like we've said before, for me, you have to tell
Speaker 2: the truth of what's happening. And partly that's just because
Speaker 2: you're only going to shaft yourself later if you tell
Speaker 2: a version of a story that up until this point
Speaker 2: you're only painting Abby as a lovely, lovely girl, and
Speaker 2: you've cut out any of her like neiglarly parts of
Speaker 2: her personality. Then when suddenly she has a massive fight
Speaker 2: with someone and everyone's like, where did this come from,
Speaker 2: it's like, well, yeah, we kind of didn't give you
Speaker 2: all those parts of the story up until now. So
Speaker 2: we've been caught out on seasons of something like Big
Speaker 2: Brother where we're like, oh, let's just not put that
Speaker 2: scene to where because it's not very nice, And then
Speaker 2: the next day there's a whole story arc about the
Speaker 2: scene that you haven't shown to the audience, and everyone's like,
Speaker 2: what the frick is everyone talking about? So you have to,
Speaker 2: in my mind, tell as close as you can to
Speaker 2: the truth of these people, because otherwise you're probably going
Speaker 2: to get yourself in trouble five episodes down the track
Speaker 2: because you've tried to whitewash a certain situation. So for Abby,
Speaker 2: I think there was times when we showed her as
Speaker 2: like the big, bubbly person who was like the glue
Speaker 2: that was holding the whole camp together, and then there
Speaker 2: were other times when she was just like she can
Speaker 2: be an annoying character, you know, like that's part of
Speaker 2: her personality, is that, like she'll push people's buttons, or
Speaker 2: she'll like really dominate conversations about things, or she'll be
Speaker 2: like very much talking about like you know, feminist things
Speaker 2: that like maybe don't really sit well with some of
Speaker 2: the men in the camp. So we would put those
Speaker 2: things to wear show that she people were being annoyed
Speaker 2: by that, but not put it to whereas if she
Speaker 2: was a villain that she was ruining things. It's just like, well,
Speaker 2: Abby can sometimes push people's buttons. That's the truth of
Speaker 2: who she is. She's not a villain and she's not
Speaker 2: a sho She's a person who can be both of
Speaker 2: those things at different times. So I think that's more
Speaker 2: I would never go, well, I'm only going to show
Speaker 2: the nasty parts of this person, because then we've got
Speaker 2: our villain. Like that's we can't do that on twenty
Speaker 2: four hour turnaround shows because we'll get in trouble later, basically,
Speaker 2: like it's not going to be the truth of who
Speaker 2: they are for the rest of the series, and then
Speaker 2: I've got to like keep them as a villain for
Speaker 2: the rest of the series. That's never going to work.
Speaker 1: Is that interesting that people who watch these shows categorize
Speaker 1: contestants like that that they Is that really fascinating to
Speaker 1: see the interpretations of other people watching these shows and
Speaker 1: how they want to categorize people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And also for me, sometimes it shocks me when
Speaker 2: a scene that like my interpretation of what was happening
Speaker 2: in that scene is one thing, and then you'll see
Speaker 2: like a like something online or an article about it,
Speaker 2: and it's like this person was so shitty in this scene,
Speaker 2: and I was like what, I didn't get that from
Speaker 2: that at all. So I'm always like I just present
Speaker 2: all of the pieces and then people are going to
Speaker 2: take from it what they will. You know, like you
Speaker 2: would have been considered a villain because you weren't always
Speaker 2: everyone's best friends, Like you were fairly honest about what
Speaker 2: was actually going on in that house, and sometimes that's
Speaker 2: shocking to people. Like being upfront and saying the things
Speaker 2: that most people say behind people's backs, to people's faces
Speaker 2: is kind of shocking. So that's not sort of necessarily
Speaker 2: surprising that people would look at that as like a
Speaker 2: villainous character when we're trying to like find those like
Speaker 2: very clear character tropes. But you know, I always try
Speaker 2: and if someone has got some annoying traits, I won't
Speaker 2: let them be horrifically annoying in the show, because no
Speaker 2: one wants to watch someone who's horrifically annoying. But I
Speaker 2: let them at times annoying some of the other characters
Speaker 2: because that's part of their character.
Speaker 1: I'm assuming that you've never watched The Real Housewives of
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. Have you watched that show? I'm getting a
Speaker 1: no from you, But there's Lisa Rinner on that show,
Speaker 1: and at the moment she's been fired or she's walked
Speaker 1: away from that show where we're not particularly sure, but
Speaker 1: she really is the villain on that show to most viewers.
Speaker 1: But I love her on that show. I'm like, she
Speaker 1: says what everyone's thinking. And it's so funny that there's
Speaker 1: a huge portion of the audience, probably the loudest portion
Speaker 1: of the audience, that use Twitter and Instagram and are
Speaker 1: more likely to comment a line that crucify her. And
Speaker 1: it's like, every time I talk to my friends about
Speaker 1: that show, they're like, no, Ben, Lisa Rinn is amazing
Speaker 1: on that show. She's wonderful. But yeah, interesting to see
Speaker 1: the interpretations of some people. Then the loudest people online,
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's all quite fascinating.
Speaker 2: The loudest people online are the people who are not
Speaker 2: willing to kind of like say to the person's face,
Speaker 2: so they're, you know, something further perpetuating all the things
Speaker 2: that people say.
Speaker 1: The worst things though. They're like, I hate you on
Speaker 1: that show because you were mean, and then they call
Speaker 1: you a cunt, and you're like, what, I.
Speaker 2: Try to avoid reading all online things that they.
Speaker 1: Ever read the comments section is what Sandra Bullock always says,
Speaker 1: just before you go, I have to ask, what do
Speaker 1: you know about twenty twenty three series of I'm a Celebrity?
Speaker 1: Get me out of here? Do you have any details?
Speaker 1: Do you know anything?
Speaker 2: No? The really good thing is I have no secrets
Speaker 2: that I could accidentally spill because I you know nothing. Yeah, No,
Speaker 2: I'm I.
Speaker 1: Got nothing, you know, the least amount of nothing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then what do you think do you think we
Speaker 1: will get Love Olean Australia back this year and do
Speaker 1: you think it should stay in Spain.
Speaker 2: I would like to believe it's coming back. I don't
Speaker 2: have an official on that, and I definitely think it
Speaker 2: should stay in Spain. I just remember everyone when we've
Speaker 2: got back last year, going wow, it looks so good here.
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, it's really easy to make it
Speaker 2: look like it's Spain when we're in Spain. You know,
Speaker 2: we spent two years trying to make other places look
Speaker 2: like Spain, which is tricky as it turns out. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So I mean, I do think just being in Spain
Speaker 2: makes it a lot easier to feel like what we
Speaker 2: think of Island should feel like. So fingers crossed definitely.
Speaker 1: The last question I ask everyone is what is something
Speaker 1: from behind the scenes, something that the audience won't see
Speaker 1: or we won't know, kind of like a behind the
Speaker 1: scenes secret from your time working on some of these
Speaker 1: amazing shows.
Speaker 2: So the very first season of Love Island, and this
Speaker 2: was a UK format point, so they used to do
Speaker 2: these little like character interstitials. So if like, we've just
Speaker 2: seen a really good scene of say Cassidy, then we
Speaker 2: go to like about five to ten seconds of like
Speaker 2: a little music hit and you'd see like Cassidy like
Speaker 2: looking sexy by the pool. And so for a joke,
Speaker 2: just for sits and gigs, because this is what you
Speaker 2: do when it's the middle of the night and you're
Speaker 2: trying to cut a show. Two of my editor's Poula
Speaker 2: and Cas cut an interstitial of the cat that we
Speaker 2: had that was roaming around the villa. It was just
Speaker 2: as hilarious. It's like, basically the cat lies back on
Speaker 2: its back, which is what random vision we had, like
Speaker 2: the cat lies back on its back and like strokes
Speaker 2: itself kind of thing. And so it's like literally looks
Speaker 2: like a sexy package of the cat lying by the pool.
Speaker 2: And we were like, okay, let's just put it in
Speaker 2: the show and see what the network says. And so
Speaker 2: you go into the screening at three o'clock in the
Speaker 2: morning and we get to the part where we cut
Speaker 2: to the cat intostitial and I'm just sitting there like
Speaker 2: waiting to be screened at It's like, what's this shit?
Speaker 2: Take it out? And everyone pissed themselves laughing and they
Speaker 2: were like, I was like, are you keep the catterstiial
Speaker 2: and they were like, yeah, we're keeping the cat in stitial,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of the birth of like the
Speaker 2: Talking Villa Cat. Basically it became like a character in
Speaker 2: the show that we got to revive again this season
Speaker 2: when we went back to Spain. So sometimes the best
Speaker 2: parts of any show is just shit the post have
Speaker 2: done to entertain themselves that we somehow managed to sneak
Speaker 2: through the screenings. And that's a prime example of that.
Speaker 2: And now somehow we make a television show, we're the
Speaker 2: talking cat in it.
Speaker 1: It's so funny. And also just the shots of the
Speaker 1: pink flamingo in the pool, like just the random and
Speaker 1: the things that the pink flamingco am I Flamingo Flamingo,
Speaker 1: just the things that the pink flamingo says, what am
Speaker 1: I watching? Oh my god?
Speaker 2: Sometimes you're like, what kind of acid did we take
Speaker 2: last night? As we and I just can't believe that
Speaker 2: we actually get to put it to wear, But there
Speaker 2: we go. We did.
Speaker 1: Jala. I just want to say thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being so generous with your time and sharing some
Speaker 1: of your stories. I think you do a fantastic job
Speaker 1: on these shows, and I think people are going to
Speaker 1: get a lot out of you being able to share
Speaker 1: your stories today, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Okay, hopefully they were okay good, Alright,