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Speaker 1: Hello there.

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Speaker 2: I am taking a little break over Christmas, so I've

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Speaker 2: handpicked a bunch of my favorite interviews from twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: To play while I'm away.

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Speaker 2: And if there are any people you'd like to hear

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Speaker 2: from in twenty twenty three on how I work, drop

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Speaker 2: me a note Via the socials. You can find me

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Speaker 2: on LinkedIn under Amantha Imba and on Instagram at Amantha I.

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Speaker 2: I hit delete on almost every newsletter I have found

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Speaker 2: myself subscribed to, but I have never hit delete on

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Speaker 2: anything written by Eric Barker. Eric is one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite writers in the area of human behavior, and I

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Speaker 2: am not alone. Over three hundred and fifty thousand people

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Speaker 2: subscribed to his newsletter. Eric's the author of Barking Up

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Speaker 2: the Wrong Tree and more recently Plays Well With Others,

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Speaker 2: two books that take some of the most fundamental ideas, platitudes,

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Speaker 2: and nice cities that society has to offer and puts.

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Speaker 1: Them under the microscope.

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Speaker 2: Eric's convinced that too much of the work coming out

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Speaker 2: of the self help, productivity and health arenas is vague

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Speaker 2: and confusing, and he's using his blog and his books

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Speaker 2: to help make self help feel more like an it emmanual, which,

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Speaker 2: trust me, is a good thing.

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Speaker 1: So, given Eric is.

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Speaker 2: Immersed in human behavior research every day and writes about

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Speaker 2: it for the masses, I wanted to know which strategies

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Speaker 2: he actually uses himself.

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Speaker 1: My name is doctor amanthe Immer.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science

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Speaker 2: consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work, a show

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Speaker 2: about how to help you do your best work. So

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Speaker 2: Eric is not a fan of work life balance, and

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Speaker 2: I wanted to know if he's not striving for balance,

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Speaker 2: what is he with his work life?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I don't really believe in work life balance.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think that. I mean, in the end,

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Speaker 3: you're you're going to have to draw a line like

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Speaker 3: that's That's what it comes down to, is that you know,

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Speaker 3: the in the past, we we could have better work

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Speaker 3: life balance simply because you know, the office closed at

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Speaker 3: five pm, or you know there was no email, the

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Speaker 3: mail only came once a day, the newspaper only came

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Speaker 3: once a day. It's like, now you can work as

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Speaker 3: long as as you want to, you know, So in

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Speaker 3: the end, you you you kind of have to draw

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Speaker 3: a line yourself if you want it but I don't know.

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Speaker 3: For me personally, imbalance is more of the way to go,

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Speaker 3: Like I well, I think if you if you really

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Speaker 3: want to if you really want to excel, if you

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Speaker 3: really want to go hard on something, you know, I

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Speaker 3: think you need to devote a positively disproportionate, if not obsessional,

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Speaker 3: level of energy towards something. And and a lot of

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Speaker 3: people I think here that and it's you know, they

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Speaker 3: might reject it, but I think actually a lot of

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Speaker 3: us live like that. It's just not deliberate. I think

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Speaker 3: a lot of people, you know, miss that email, miss

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Speaker 3: that phone call, you know, maybe don't pay that bill.

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Speaker 3: They do. Let balls drop, but it's not deliberate, it's

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Speaker 3: not strategic.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I like this idea.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting of being consciously unbalanced or imbalanced, and I

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Speaker 2: think that for people that are that way, there's often

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Speaker 2: a lot of guilt associated with it, but it sounds

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Speaker 2: like for you there's not. So how have you deliberately

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Speaker 2: leant into that imbalance? Like how is your life deliberately crafted?

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Speaker 3: Differently, I think the issue here is having to face

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Speaker 3: and make tough decisions. I think one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: why why a lot of people want why a lot

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Speaker 3: of people do drop balls but they make it feel

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Speaker 3: accidental is that prevents them from having to make hard decisions.

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Speaker 3: That prevents them from having to say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: I really don't want to talk to that person who

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Speaker 3: called me, and they if you have to say that

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Speaker 3: in order to make it low priority, you have to

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Speaker 3: make that decision and say, you know what, this isn't

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Speaker 3: that important. I know it's supposed to be important. I

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Speaker 3: know everybody tells me it's important, but it's really not

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Speaker 3: that important, and you have to make that decision for yourself.

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Speaker 3: So for me, like I know, you know, if I'm

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Speaker 3: working on a book, if I'm if I'm you know,

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Speaker 3: working promoting promoting a book, if I'm working on a

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Speaker 3: blog post. It's like every day I wake up and

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Speaker 3: I know what is number one, And for me, what

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Speaker 3: is number one is usually also number two, three, and four,

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Speaker 3: And so I am I try and structure my life

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Speaker 3: so that I am monotasking and I really don't have

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Speaker 3: to think about anything else and most of what could

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Speaker 3: come up, Like I said, I've already I've already become

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Speaker 3: comfortable with like like like like a samurai, I'm comfortable

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Speaker 3: with the idea of death. I know this could happen.

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Speaker 3: That's fine. Now I can just move forward. And for me,

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Speaker 3: it's literally every day I wake up and I have

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Speaker 3: a countdown time around my iPad and it's set for

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Speaker 3: five hours. And when I start working, I hit the

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Speaker 3: start button and starts counting down from five hours. And

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Speaker 3: if I get up to pee, I hit the pause button,

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Speaker 3: and if I check the email, I hit the pause button.

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Speaker 3: I take a phone call, I hit the pose button,

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Speaker 3: and by the end of the day that needs to

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Speaker 3: get to zero, and if it doesn't get to zero,

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Speaker 3: then I guess I got more work to do. And

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Speaker 3: it's that way. I know I've designated this is what's work.

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Speaker 3: And if you're doing anything but work doesn't count. And

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Speaker 3: because I think it's so easy to rationalize, it's so

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Speaker 3: easy to rationalize and trick yourself, or you accomplish something

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Speaker 3: and you feel good and then it's, oh, yeay, let's

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Speaker 3: I did six good minutes of work. I deserve three

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Speaker 3: days off, and like, it's all too easy to do that,

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Speaker 3: and this keeps me accountable and it's ruthless. It's ruthless,

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Speaker 3: but it works.

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Speaker 2: Five hours, I am freaking out of it that. So

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Speaker 2: I do deep work sprints almost every day of one

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Speaker 2: to two hours in length, typically closer to sixty to

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Speaker 2: ninety minutes in length, and maybe two or three of those,

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Speaker 2: and then sort of the day will progress into more

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Speaker 2: shallow work. So why five hours That seems like a

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Speaker 2: lot in a way, Well, like.

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Speaker 3: I said, it's not one continuous stretch. I can take

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Speaker 3: a break whenever I want. But you know, and I

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Speaker 3: could take a break, I do whatever I have to.

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Speaker 3: So five hours of solid work usually takes more like

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Speaker 3: eight to ten hours if I'm really kicking. If I'm

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Speaker 3: really kicking ass, it's like I could do it in seven.

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Speaker 3: But no, it's like I mean, part of that is

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Speaker 3: a cumul like is built up stamina over time, where

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Speaker 3: you know, once you can do it. And part of

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Speaker 3: that is like definitely the you know, I always prioritize

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Speaker 3: what I use the technical term of thinky work, uh,

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Speaker 3: thinky work that I have to use a lot of

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Speaker 3: cognitive forest power for that always comes first, you know,

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Speaker 3: and by the end of the five hours, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe it is you know, looking at research or something.

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Speaker 3: It's not busy work. It still has to be something

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Speaker 3: like constructive you know, but it definitely tones down from

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Speaker 3: like really active. I can probably only like really focus

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Speaker 3: on like solid writing probably for three to four you know,

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Speaker 3: but it needs to be contributing to the to the

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Speaker 3: bottom line and in that sense. And the other good

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Speaker 3: thing about it is if you are the super productive,

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Speaker 3: uh somewhat anxious type, then you know you can you

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Speaker 3: can do a lot of stuff, but you can get

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Speaker 3: to that place at the end of the day where

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Speaker 3: you're like, like, did I really get stuff done? Did

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Speaker 3: I really move the needle? Did I? And that five

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Speaker 3: hours and that prioritization, like when that when that that

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Speaker 3: buzzer goes off and that bell rings, like there's no guilt.

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Speaker 3: I did fine, I know I did five hours, you know,

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Speaker 3: pausing for anything that was not worth and I'm done.

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Speaker 3: I am done, and I can relax because otherwise I

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Speaker 3: would drive myself crazy.

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Speaker 2: And what else do you do to help optimize those

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Speaker 2: five hours? In terms of planning for what you will

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Speaker 2: do during that time?

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, a lot of people can give you

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Speaker 3: the short term kind of okay, Like I said, do

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Speaker 3: the think you work first, do the like I think,

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Speaker 3: I think the advice that I'd rather give people which

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Speaker 3: I think is less discussed and I think should be

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Speaker 3: more discussed, is while I am involved in pretty much

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Speaker 3: any project, like I have a I have a like

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Speaker 3: a word doc open where I am kind of taking

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Speaker 3: notes regarding process and stuff. I call it kind of

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Speaker 3: like the book of where basically it's like instead of

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Speaker 3: these all purpose, generally good sort of advice tips, these

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Speaker 3: are like specific to me where it's like, you, Eric,

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Speaker 3: you are going to tell yourself that you will get

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Speaker 3: to this later and you never do, so, do not

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Speaker 3: fool your say. It's like it's like it's like Doctor

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Speaker 3: Jekyl like chaining himself when he knows that mister Hyde

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Speaker 3: is coming, where it's like, okay, how do you lie

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Speaker 3: to yourself? What are the rationalizations you usually tell? Oh,

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Speaker 3: you know what today, I'll start off with something simple,

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Speaker 3: I can do that really hard work late. No, you can't,

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Speaker 3: and you know it, and we have. If you look

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Speaker 3: in the notebook here, you've written this down four times

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Speaker 3: that you thought you could do it and you never

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Speaker 3: did it. And I think that's the advice that no

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Speaker 3: book can ever ever ever give you, no guru can

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Speaker 3: ever give you, no blog post can ever give you.

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Speaker 3: Is your own idiosyncrasies. You know, nobody can kind of

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Speaker 3: maybe a spout else might have some clue or something,

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Speaker 3: or a partner you live with, but overall, really that

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Speaker 3: there is an enormous amount of good advice that can

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Speaker 3: only come from you to you, and you need to

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Speaker 3: write it down. You need to write it down, You

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Speaker 3: need to review it because otherwise you will rationalize and

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Speaker 3: you will tell yourself things and to have answers to

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Speaker 3: those questions to be able to say, you know what,

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Speaker 3: taking you know, an extra day off? Is that the

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Speaker 3: kind of thing that you come back and you are

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Speaker 3: energized and ready to go, and it's such a good idea.

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Speaker 3: Or you take a day off and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: you just took three days off and you did, Like,

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Speaker 3: which kind of person are you? That can have different

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Speaker 3: effects on people? If you start writing down, I know

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Speaker 3: that this happens. I know if I wake up after

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Speaker 3: this hour, you know, stuff doesn't get done. If I

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Speaker 3: go to bed this night, Eric, that third drink is

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Speaker 3: not a good idea, you know, just like having that

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Speaker 3: list is so powerful and like I said, it's it's

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Speaker 3: advice that only you can give you. And then reading

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Speaker 3: a lot of productivity stuff, like, all of a sudden,

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Speaker 3: there becomes an easy way to implement it because once

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Speaker 3: you start having these personal rules and you and you,

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Speaker 3: like I said, you real man, today went really badly

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Speaker 3: what did I do? And then you can say, oh,

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Speaker 3: I did X. You make a note, and all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, the structure creates itself because like it or not,

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Speaker 3: you're kind of a b testing. You know, maybe you

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Speaker 3: woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't

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Speaker 3: get back to sleep. Okay, you're going to learn something today.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you overslept today. Okay, you're going to learn something today.

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Speaker 3: And every time I get a tip, I can now,

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, it can slot right in like

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Speaker 3: oh they say break should be this long. I let

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Speaker 3: me try that. Oh that didn't work, And you can

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Speaker 3: like all of a sudden, and then what you find

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Speaker 3: is it just kind of all comes together like voltron,

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Speaker 3: Like you got all the pieces and they're just kind

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Speaker 3: of clicking, because all of a sudden, you have these

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Speaker 3: rules and you sort of know, you sort of know

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Speaker 3: what works. And as long as you read the Bible

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Speaker 3: of you, than your productivity religion will stay sacred.

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Speaker 2: You write a lot about happiness in general, and just

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Speaker 2: how to live you know, a life that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: less stressful and more mindful, being more present, being more grateful,

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Speaker 2: and being happier and those.

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Speaker 1: Sorts of topics.

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Speaker 2: What have been some of the tips and strategies that

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Speaker 2: have impacted you the most in those areas.

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Speaker 3: First, let me caveat by saying that I'm terrible about

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Speaker 3: all these things. I just like it's it's funny because

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Speaker 3: I'll meet people who read my blog and I just

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Speaker 3: I feel bad because I think they expect me to

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Speaker 3: be a guru or something, and like I am, I

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Speaker 3: am not. I am looking for these answers for the

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Speaker 3: same reasons other people are. I. You know, it's like

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Speaker 3: that's why I started. You don't build an iron Man

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Speaker 3: suit because you're in vulnerable. You build an iron Man's

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Speaker 3: suit because you're not vulnerable. And you know, I started

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Speaker 3: down this journey because I have trouble with these things.

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Speaker 3: But I have to say that, you know, as cliche

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Speaker 3: as it may sound, pausing, stopping whatever the heck crazy

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Speaker 3: thing my circus brain is doing, and just thinking about

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Speaker 3: the good stuff in my life and feeling gratitude like

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Speaker 3: it is an enormous perspective shift and that I mean,

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Speaker 3: your mileage may vary, but you know, the study show

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Speaker 3: it's it is one of the single most powerful things

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Speaker 3: you can do. And for me, that perspective shift is

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Speaker 3: enormous because I am the type who will just go

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Speaker 3: on to the no, this is good, this is done, great, Okay, good,

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Speaker 3: we want to know about prize. That's nice, what's next?

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Speaker 3: You know, like I won't really like appreciate like a

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Speaker 3: lot of things. And and it's it's crazy, it's great.

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Speaker 3: Like your gratitude is so powerful simply because we spend

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Speaker 3: so much time trying to do things to be happier

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Speaker 3: that oh, I have to get this. I have to

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Speaker 3: accomplish that. I have to you know, you have to

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Speaker 3: like reach out and to gratitude doesn't cost anything. It

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Speaker 3: doesn't cost a damn thing. You just have to All

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Speaker 3: you have to do is change your perspective and it's

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Speaker 3: right there waiting. You just have to just put a

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Speaker 3: different lens on it, you know. And and just you know,

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Speaker 3: I had some internet trouble today, you know, driving me

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Speaker 3: crazy this morning. You know what, it could have been

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Speaker 3: so much worse, you know, it just it resolved itself

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Speaker 3: in the end. Didn't have to you know, it didn't

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Speaker 3: have to go buy a new cable modem, didn't have

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Speaker 3: to have a repairman coin It's like it could have

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Speaker 3: been so much worse. I am thankful that it did not.

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Speaker 3: It was not worse, and just taking a moment to

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Speaker 3: switch that perspective, it's all you have to do. It's free,

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Speaker 3: it's right there waiting, and trust me, I forget to

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Speaker 3: do it at least as much as anybody else does.

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Speaker 3: But it really.

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Speaker 2: Works, definitely, And your latest book is Cold, plays well

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Speaker 2: with others and it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: I would expect nothing less, though, and it'shilarious, like all

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Speaker 1: your writing.

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Speaker 2: I'm so curious about, particularly business writers that use humor,

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Speaker 2: because sadly it is rare, and I think it was

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Speaker 2: a couple of years back, I got to speak to

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Speaker 2: Naomi Bagdonis, who was one of the co authors of

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Speaker 2: Humor Seriously, and it was really interesting hearing her process

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Speaker 2: for making Humor Seriously funny. And that would have been

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Speaker 2: quite odd if it wasn't. But you're writing like I'll

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Speaker 2: laugh out loud when I'm reading your newsletter, which I've

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Speaker 2: subscribed to for many years. How what's your process for

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Speaker 2: building so much humor into your writing, Like I want

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Speaker 2: to know, does it come naturally or are there kind

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Speaker 2: of tricks and formulas and things that you're consciously using.

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Speaker 3: So happy you asked this question, but I get a

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Speaker 3: lot of compliments in the humor, but nobody ever asked

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Speaker 3: me about the process regarding it. And I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was a screenwriter in Hollywood for ten years before

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Speaker 3: I ever started or stuff like that, and so like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like writing comedy was something that I worked

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Speaker 3: on assiduously for for a long time. But but more specific,

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Speaker 3: more specific to what you said, like is this you know,

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Speaker 3: like come does this come naturally? Or is it like

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Speaker 3: really hard? The answer is both. I mean, like very often,

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Speaker 3: you know, very often, like my first perspective will be

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Speaker 3: to like, rather than just stating something plainly or just

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Speaker 3: like what did I see in the book here, I'll

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Speaker 3: ask myself, like, Eric, what's your perspective on this? Because

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Speaker 3: I know whatever crazy thing comes out of like my brain,

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Speaker 3: like I'll just be like okay, like there is an

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Speaker 3: aspect of me saying like, oh okay, like what what

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Speaker 3: should I not be saying now? And I will and

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Speaker 3: it'll just be like thank God for everything. But there's

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Speaker 3: a part of it that's natural. But there's also part

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Speaker 3: of it where, you know, I'm always looking for different perspectives.

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Speaker 3: I'm always looking at, you know, just different ways of

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Speaker 3: seeing things. And sometimes, you know, jokes are funny lines

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Speaker 3: and stuff will occur to me, and I'll keep a list,

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Speaker 3: you know, And I'll also keep like words, thoughts, ideas, metaphors,

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Speaker 3: like funny things that occur to me where I'm like,

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Speaker 3: oh that's a and I have, you know, much my

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Speaker 3: process list. I also have my joke list and it

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Speaker 3: is obscenely long, and I will just go through it

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Speaker 3: and I'll just start I keep a lot of lists

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Speaker 3: like that, Like for both of my books, I have

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Speaker 3: a lot of illustrated stories there to like try and

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Speaker 3: just you know, make clear on a more visceral level,

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Speaker 3: like the what the research is conveying and those stories.

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Speaker 3: You know, I'll just be reading articles, I'll be reading books.

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Speaker 3: I'll come across something and make a note and then

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Speaker 3: when it's book time, Oh, get out the story list

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Speaker 3: and let's go to town. And so there is an

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Speaker 3: aspect that for all humor that that is very spontaneous

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Speaker 3: for me and then there is a time where I

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Speaker 3: will literally, like a sitcom writer, I will look at

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Speaker 3: a blog poster, I'll look at a section in my book,

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Speaker 3: and I will look at it much like a like

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Speaker 3: like a like a showrunner on a sitcom. I'll just

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Speaker 3: be like, its two jokes per page. I don't know,

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Speaker 3: we got to bring that up a little bit. Let's say, oh,

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Speaker 3: three jokes per page? Doing good here? Like I will say,

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Speaker 3: you know, not really there, or is there another way

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Speaker 3: to get this across, you know, or like just something

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Speaker 3: where because I find it makes such a difference. It

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Speaker 3: makes such a difference, Like if people wanted to just

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Speaker 3: read completely straight up research, they could do that. It's

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Speaker 3: out there. People don't want to. It's like you want

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Speaker 3: something accessible, you want something fun. And that's how I see.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a p I got I have a

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Speaker 3: PhD from the University of nowhere.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: It's like for me, it's I'm a translator. Like I

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Speaker 3: take the stuff and I try and you know, add

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Speaker 3: add a little bit of sugar and make the medicine

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Speaker 3: go down, Like try and make it accessible, try and

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Speaker 3: make a fun, try and make it human. And I

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Speaker 3: keep trying.

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Speaker 1: How do you know if it's going to land.

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Speaker 2: I remember in your acknowledge section and your acknowledge of

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Speaker 2: its section is funny, my god, like literally every part

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Speaker 2: of the book is funny. There was this great quote,

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Speaker 2: and if I was an organized podcast host, I would

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Speaker 2: actually have my iPads sitting next to me, which is

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Speaker 2: where your book is stored, that has the actual quote.

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Speaker 2: But it's something like like oh no, you can, you

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Speaker 2: do you have it in front of you. It's the

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Speaker 2: one about like writing a joke and not knowing if

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Speaker 2: it lands for two years.

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Speaker 3: Writing a book is like telling a joke and having

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Speaker 3: to wait two years to find out if it was funny.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I love that quote, and like for you,

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Speaker 2: how do you know if it's going to land?

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Speaker 1: If all these jokes are going to land?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the thing is that my writing process is bonkers,

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Speaker 3: like like and it's not bonkers because it's like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I am an artiste and I'm like, you know both

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Speaker 3: look no, I am like like a machine. Like most

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Speaker 3: almost every rat I know does like a vomba draft

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Speaker 3: where they just kind of like, you know, because most

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Speaker 3: people are much more com comfortable editing than they are creating.

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Speaker 3: Most people are much more comfortable, you know, even if

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Speaker 3: they like have to knock out this like very mediocre

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Speaker 3: initial draft, but then they have something to hang things

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Speaker 3: on to build from. They've got a foundation. Most people

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Speaker 3: are much more comfortable with that. But I don't like

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Speaker 3: that that like to me, I take I take more

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Speaker 3: of an architecture perspective, where you would never be like, hey,

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Speaker 3: let's build a crappy building and then we'll knock it

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Speaker 3: down and then we'll build a good one. Like you

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Speaker 3: would never do that, you know. It's like what you

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Speaker 3: do in architecture is you have blueprints and you rigorously

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Speaker 3: to the millimeter, you know, just figure out, okay, this

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Speaker 3: and the screws need to be this long. We need

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Speaker 3: this for the you know, for the for the water

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Speaker 3: line of the power line. And so my outlines are longer,

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Speaker 3: often much longer than the book itself. And like I

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Speaker 3: am constantly, like you know, outlining and outlining and outlining

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Speaker 3: and so so my first drafts are not really first drafts.

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Speaker 3: They're more like third or fourth drafts. You know, they're

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Speaker 3: like ninety percent of the way they are, but it

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Speaker 3: takes me forever, like months till there's pages and then

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Speaker 3: like in a handful of days. Boom, there's all these pages.

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Speaker 3: And people are like, how long do they take to write?

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Speaker 3: There's pages, and I'm like, oh, three days. No, it's

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Speaker 3: not took me four months of outlining, you know. But

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Speaker 3: like so for me, it's really about that outline and

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Speaker 3: going this happens, and this happens, and this happened, and

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Speaker 3: I've gone over it so many times, you know, in

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Speaker 3: that outlining prosts because it's not this organic type of ty,

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Speaker 3: type of ty, type of the tptive type, and then edit,

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Speaker 3: edit it. Like for me, my my first drafts are

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Speaker 3: very close to the finished product because I've spent so

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Speaker 3: much time going to this goes first, Okay, this goes

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Speaker 3: before that? No way, Okay, what's going to segue from

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Speaker 3: this to this? It's for me, it's like Tetris, and like,

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Speaker 3: I take so long agonizing over that that it gives

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Speaker 3: me a pretty good idea of what work and what won't.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it's it's mostly in the outlining. And then

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Speaker 3: I have a good friend who is far, far, far

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Speaker 3: more risk averse than I am, and he will read

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Speaker 3: it and he will say, oh my god, you can't

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Speaker 3: say that. And fifty percent of time I'll listen to him,

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Speaker 3: and fifty percent of the time I'll go, well, hey,

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Speaker 3: probably just lost another one hundred email subscribers.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, we will be back soon with Eric talking

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Speaker 2: about the strategies he uses to deliberately deepen relationships in

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Speaker 2: his life and also how to get better at reading

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Speaker 2: other people. If you're looking for more tips to improve

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Speaker 2: the way that you work, I write a short fortnightly

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Speaker 2: newsletter that contains three cool things that I've discovered that

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Speaker 2: helped me work better, ranging from software and gadgets that

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Speaker 2: I'm loving through the interesting research findings. You can sign

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Speaker 2: up for that at howiwork dot com how work dot co. Now,

431
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 2: your book is all about really connecting with others and

432
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,679
Speaker 2: friendships and relationships, and you know, there's a whole section

433
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: on making friends, which is a topic as an adult

434
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: that I'm really interested in because like, it's easy to

435
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: make friends, fairly easy when you're at school or you're

436
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 2: at university, and maybe in the work place, but you know,

437
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: a lot of us don't even work in an office now,

438
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: So I'd love to know how you've applied what you

439
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 2: learned in researching and writing your latest book around making

440
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 2: friends as an adult.

441
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 3: I mean it was funny because the well morbid funny,

442
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 3: I guess. But this deal from my book closed February

443
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 3: twenty eighth, twenty twenty and two weeks after the deal

444
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 3: from my book closed, like California where I live completely lockdown,

445
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 3: and so I had already done the proposal. I was

446
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 3: set on writing a walk about relationships. But two weeks

447
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 3: after I like closed, the deal was rare to go.

448
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: All of a sudden, it took on an entirely new meaning.

449
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 3: It was just like, oh, this is the next thing. Next,

450
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 3: it was the next book I'm writing about. It's like,

451
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 3: oh my god, people are going to need this. I

452
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 3: mean I know I need this. My friends know I

453
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: need this, my ex girlfriends know I need this. Uh

454
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 3: but like you know, I mean I'm like, wow, people

455
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 3: are really going to need this. And so like it

456
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,719
Speaker 3: became this really important thing to me. And you know,

457
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: making friends when you're an adult is really hard, and

458
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 3: we don't like to talk about it, you know, we

459
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 3: I think we don't like to discuss just how difficult.

460
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 3: Like you said, like when you're a kid, it's kind

461
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,640
Speaker 3: of default. You know, you start school and it's like, hey,

462
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: there you are, and you know, work to a degree,

463
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 3: but as an adult, you know, as I write in

464
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 3: the book, it's like, you know, usually it's around people

465
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 3: when people get married. Usually they get married, you gather

466
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 3: all your friends together, and they prompably never see them again.

467
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 3: You know. It's like that's really tricky, and it's really tough.

468
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 3: You know. For me personally, I'm lucky that I have

469
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 3: some really some really good friends, and I have not

470
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: given that. I was, you know, crazed writing a book,

471
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 3: and now I'm you know, crazed promoting a book. What's

472
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 3: really been good for me is that this has given

473
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 3: me like kind of a natural, organic reason to start

474
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: reaching out to a lot of people, you know, And

475
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 3: so I was going to have to contact people anyway.

476
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 3: And now I maybe I'm not making as many new friends.

477
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 3: But for me, it's about there are some relationships that

478
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 3: went dormant, there's some people I didn't connect with during

479
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 3: the pandemic, and there's some great friendships that I want

480
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 3: to sustain. And I've been putting a lot of energy

481
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 3: into that because in the in the book, you know,

482
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 3: I do mention you know, like the Dale Carnegie stuff

483
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 3: about like making new friends but you know, for me,

484
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: it's really about deepening friendships. It's about getting those friends

485
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: that really matter. As Aristotle called friends. He said that

486
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 3: they were another self. And you know, after two thousand

487
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 3: years science around to proving him right. You know, it's

488
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 3: that's what I'm missing, you know, I'm I'm not necessarily

489
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 3: in the market for new acquaintances, but like having strong,

490
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: reliable friends I can trust, you know, I don't know

491
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,199
Speaker 3: a lot of the things. The past few years, including

492
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 3: the pandemic, have told me how important it is to

493
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 3: just have those deep, meaningful relationships. And that's that's what

494
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 3: I find myself really working on.

495
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 2: What strategies have you used to deliberately help deepen relationships?

496
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 3: I mean, the two key ones I talk about in

497
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 3: the book, like really do the trick for me? And

498
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 3: you know, because Dale Carnegie talks about the easy stuff.

499
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: That's why we like the book because his stuff is

500
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 3: easy to do, but it's really only good for the

501
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 3: beginning of relationships. To deepen relationships, we need to send

502
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: what economics refers to as costly signals, you know, and

503
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 3: they're costly because they you know, by being costly, they're

504
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 3: hard to replicate. That and that tells you that they're meaningful,

505
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 3: and those to costly signals when it comes to friendship

506
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 3: or time and vulnerability. You know, time is costly because

507
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 3: it's scarce. You know, if I if I talk to

508
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 3: someone for an hour every day, I can only do

509
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 3: that for twenty four people and a story the end,

510
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 3: that's it. Thanks for calling. You know, they're say I

511
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 3: do need to sleep, So like that's a costly signal

512
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 3: when you routinely get people your time. And second is

513
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 3: vulnerability is you know, the quickest way that we can

514
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: build trust with others is to show them our own trust.

515
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 3: And if we tell people something that is personal, something

516
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 3: that scares us, something that might make us look bad,

517
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: if we trust somebody with that, you know, that says

518
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 3: I'm trusting you, and most likely, very often good friends

519
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: will reciprocate. And that's how you deepen friendships. That's what

520
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 3: Arthur Aaron, It's Donybrook University found. There's a research by

521
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: Jeff Hall that shows just how long it takes dozens

522
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 3: or hundreds of hours to build good friendships. But Arthur

523
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: Aron was able to make people feel like lifelong friends

524
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 3: in forty five minutes. It by having people be vulnerable

525
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 3: by having people open up, say the things that are scary,

526
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 3: say the things they're feeling. And we've got a good

527
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: reason to now we've all been through some scary, difficult

528
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 3: emotional stuff with the pandemic, so we should we should

529
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: take this this opportunity to do it. And that's what

530
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 3: I've been doing, is I've been I've been more. Hey,

531
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,239
Speaker 3: I got my five hour countdown for my writing, you know,

532
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 3: and I try to make sure to make time for

533
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 3: my friends, you know, in the same in the same way,

534
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: like evenings are set aside in you know, for that vulnerability. I,

535
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 3: as I writ about the book, I now followed the

536
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 3: scary rule. Uh, if it's scary, I say it. And

537
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: you know, as I do, say, be incremental, don't confess

538
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: any murders at Christmas dinner. But like it's it's you know,

539
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: be incremental. But but uh, you know, I've I've I've

540
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 3: played the distant, tough guy for many years, and frankly,

541
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: it didn't work out too well for me. So, you know,

542
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: opening up and being a little more honest about what

543
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 3: I'm dealing with. I find it's a good litmus test.

544
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 3: I find it's a really good litmus test, because if

545
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: people react well to it, they're probably a good friend.

546
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 3: Then if they don't react well to it, well, you

547
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 3: just learned something.

548
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: You talk about quite quite a lot of research in

549
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: the book around how people are surprisingly bad at reading

550
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: other people. And I'm curious, after knowing all that research

551
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: and writing about it in the book, how have you

552
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: become better I guess reading other people or knowing what's

553
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 2: going on in their minds.

554
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: Well, we're doing a podcast right now, and you know,

555
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: one of the big big things I point out there

556
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: is that deliberately attempting to read body language is you know,

557
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 3: it's false. God, it really doesn't work out that well.

558
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: But the voice is very telling. You know, if you

559
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: can hear someone but you can't see them, empathic accuracy

560
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: only drops off about four percent. But if you can

561
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 3: see someone you can't hear them, empathic accuracy drops off

562
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 3: fifty four percent. So the voice is really what's telling

563
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 3: us versus, Oh, we move his eyebrow. That means he's nervous.

564
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: It's like no, no, no, like it's all of that.

565
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: You know, you never know if somebody's shivering because they're

566
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 3: nervous because they're cold, like you can't be sure, and

567
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: especially with strangers, we don't have a baseline. You know,

568
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 3: it's much more about the voice, and it's much more

569
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 3: about you know, outside influences, bringing other people into the mix,

570
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: putting people in new environments, you know, saying provocative things

571
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 3: like those are the things that really gives us because

572
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 3: our reading ability for others, nobody's going to be Sherlock Holmes.

573
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's way too hard to passively read others.

574
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 3: But what we can do is strategically make others more readable.

575
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: What we can do as well, is we can increase motivation.

576
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: You know, if we're focused, if we see some gain

577
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 3: or reward, people are much better at reading others on

578
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 3: a first date because again, there's something to gain. So

579
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: if we can put ourselves in that mindset of like

580
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 3: you know, having something to gain or lose, get focused,

581
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 3: that can help. But in the end, the game is

582
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 3: really one by making others more readable, not by trying

583
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 3: to improve our very poor reading skills.

584
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: Now, this is probably like asking you to choose your

585
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: favorite child. But are there like one or two kind

586
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: of top things that you learned in the book that

587
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: have really changed you know, how you see or how

588
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: you think about or how you do you know, relationships

589
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 2: and human connection.

590
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 3: Now, the one thing you know that that was very

591
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 3: insightful to me and I think very useful to other

592
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: people coming out of the pandemic is that there was

593
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: there's work I talk about by Fail Birdie, who's a

594
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 3: historian at the University of York, and she basically said

595
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: that before the nineteenth century, loneliness, both as a topical

596
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: word and pretty much an experience, pretty much didn't exist.

597
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: Now that soundsigorically and sane, but she goes through and

598
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: you can find the word lonely in books, but what

599
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: it means is something that is by itself. It doesn't

600
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 3: have the negative emotional connotation that we add to it.

601
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 3: And it was only in the nineteenth century when we

602
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 3: had the rise of individualism, a lot of isms, you know, capitalism, existentialism,

603
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 3: all these you know, much more individualistic society because before

604
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, people felt like they were a part

605
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: of a religion, they're part of a nation, part of

606
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 3: a tribe, part of a family, part of a group

607
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 3: like we were very much in Meshkin embedded, you know,

608
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 3: in these groups. And it was just interesting because it

609
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 3: tied in with a lot of very modern research on

610
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 3: loneliness where John Cacioppo, who's the leading lead researcher on loneliness,

611
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 3: he found that lonely people don't spend any less time

612
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 3: with other people than non lonely people do. Again, another

613
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 3: thing that sounds categorically insane. Yet we've all felt lonely

614
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 3: in a crowd, and that tells you right there that

615
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: just having people like having people around you is great.

616
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: But just having people around you, that's not enough to

617
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: cure loneliness. You can still feel lonely in a crowd.

618
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 3: And that's because Loneliness is a subjective experience. Loneliness is

619
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: how you. Loneliness is not mere isolation because solitude, solitude

620
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 3: is being alone. In solitude we regard as a positive. Solitude,

621
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: you know, is really strongly tied with creativity, while loneliness

622
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 3: is correlated with pretty much every negative health metric you

623
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: can imagine. Solitude, According to VIVEC. Murphy, the Surgeon General

624
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: of the United States, solitude is you know, a very

625
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 3: very positive for you. So being alone it's not about

626
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 3: being alone. Loneliness is how you feel about your relationships

627
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 3: and if you feel good about your relationships, then being

628
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: by yourself is solitude. And if you feel negative or

629
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: bad or concerned about your relationships, then being alone is loneliness.

630
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 3: And the fact that that difference is a mere perspective shift,

631
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: and it can be a big one to change if

632
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: you're harmed by it, but that it's a perspective shift

633
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 3: that is really changed something for me because if I

634
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 3: start to feel lonely, you know, sure I can spend

635
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 3: more time with other people, but to me, that's a

636
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 3: canary in the coal mine. To me, that makes me say, Okay,

637
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: how am I feeling about my relationships and what do

638
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: I need to do to address that? How can I

639
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,799
Speaker 3: change that feeling. Sure I can spend more time with

640
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 3: other people, but again the lonely in the crowd issue,

641
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 3: So I need to make sure that I feel I'm

642
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 3: a part of something, not be a part of something

643
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 3: on paper, not letter of the law, spirit of law.

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00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 3: Like what do I have to do, what do I

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00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 3: have to contribute? What do I have to add to?

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00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 4: How?

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00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 3: Where can I feel responsible? Where can I feel necessary?

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00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 3: Where can I feel that like you know, I'm adding

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00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: something and that if I wasn't there, people would miss

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00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 3: me and people would miss my contribution. How can I

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00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 3: add to that to that group, that community. So that's

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00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 3: been a really powerful insight for me, and how I

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00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: think about my relationships is whether I feel solitude or loneliness,

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00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 3: especially being a very introverted guy. That has been a

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00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: really powerful insight from the book in terms of what

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00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: next steps I take relationship wise.

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00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 2: I love that I found that very powerful in the

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00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: book when I read that as well, also being someone

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00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 2: that is quite introverted.

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00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: Now, Eric, I don't know where time is gone, but

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00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: it has gone, and I would love to note for

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00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: people that want to connect with.

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00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 4: You and read your brilliant, brilliant newsletter which I just

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00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 4: whole wholeheartedly recommend. I've been subscribing for years and I

665
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 4: love it, and also get their hands on plays well

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00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 4: with others?

667
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: How do they do that.

668
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: Plays well with others? Is available on Amazon and a

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00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 3: barn and Noble, whatever bookseller should be out there. My

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00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 3: first book is Parking Up Throwing Tree. My website has

671
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: a very difficult to pronounce r L. It's Japanese. It's

672
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 3: a Japanese inside joke. I wasn't exactly thinking like good

673
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 3: marketing when I came up with the name for my

674
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: r L. Not I didn't expect it to become what

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00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 3: it did, then maybe I would have would have given that. Anyway,

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00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 3: you can either google my name, Eric Barker, or if

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00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: you go to Eric Barker dot org E R I

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00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: C B A R KITR dot org, that will redirect

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00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 3: you to my blog with its very unique r L.

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00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: We will link to all that in the show notes. Eric,

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00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time

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00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: to have a chat. I had high expectations, even though

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00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: you told me to have very low expectations. You've exceeded

684
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: low expectations and you've excited my high expectations.

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00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: So it's been an absolute pleasure.

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00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 2: Please keep writing more and more things that make me

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00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: laugh and make me and have a more awesome life.

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00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: So thank you so much.

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00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: Oh thank you. This has been great.

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00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: I loved Eric's five hour time as strategy.

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00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 1: That really was the thing that stuck with me from

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00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: this interview.

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00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: It's definitely something that I am planning on trying this

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00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: week in my own life, partly as.

695
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: An experiment to see how much deep work I.

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00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: Actually get done in a day, but also to be

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00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: disciplined in stopping it when I'm.

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00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: Doing shallow or less valuable work. Thank you for sharing

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00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: part of your day with me by listening to How

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00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: I Work.

701
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: If you're keen for more tips on how to work better,

702
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: connect with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy

703
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: to find. Just search for Amantha Imba. How I Work

704
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 2: was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery people,

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00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 2: part of the cool And Nation.

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00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: I am so.

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00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 2: Grateful for being able to work and live on this

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00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 2: beautiful land, and I want to pay my respects to

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00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: elder's past, present and emerging. How I Work is produced

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00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 2: by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios.

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00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,320
Speaker 1: The producer for this episode

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00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: Was Liam Riordan, and thank you to Martin Nimba who

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00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 2: did the audio mix and makes everything sound better than

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00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: it would have otherwise.