1 00:00:03,961 --> 00:00:07,771 Mundanara Bayles: Black Magic Woman Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the 2 00:00:07,771 --> 00:00:11,461 Mundanara Bayles: land we have recorded this episode on. We also acknowledge 3 00:00:11,461 --> 00:00:14,581 Mundanara Bayles: traditional owners of the land where you, the listener or 4 00:00:14,581 --> 00:00:17,191 Mundanara Bayles: viewer, are tuning in from. We would like to pay 5 00:00:17,191 --> 00:00:20,581 Mundanara Bayles: our respects to our elders past and present and acknowledge 6 00:00:20,581 --> 00:00:23,851 Mundanara Bayles: that this always was Aboriginal land and always will be 7 00:00:24,061 --> 00:00:24,811 Mundanara Bayles: Aboriginal land. 8 00:00:26,521 --> 00:00:29,761 Intro: This episode is proudly brought to you by ANZ, a 9 00:00:29,761 --> 00:00:33,271 Intro: new series of conversations with different mob around the country 10 00:00:33,301 --> 00:00:37,351 Intro: to yarn about meaningful career opportunities within ANZ, building the 11 00:00:37,351 --> 00:00:42,271 Intro: capacity of indigenous businesses and organizations, and helping individuals in 12 00:00:42,271 --> 00:00:46,110 Intro: the broader community to achieve financial well- being and resilience. 13 00:00:51,301 --> 00:00:54,301 Intro: Welcome to the Black Magic Woman Podcast with Mundanara Bayles. 14 00:01:00,721 --> 00:01:05,311 Mundanara Bayles: Welcome back to another deadly episode of the ANZ Black 15 00:01:05,311 --> 00:01:09,211 Mundanara Bayles: Magic Woman Partnership series. I am excited to be able 16 00:01:09,211 --> 00:01:13,141 Mundanara Bayles: to bring you a deadly yarn by a deadly sister. This 17 00:01:13,141 --> 00:01:16,471 Mundanara Bayles: yarn is an opportunity to hear from some of our 18 00:01:16,471 --> 00:01:21,391 Mundanara Bayles: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander staff or employees at ANZ, 19 00:01:21,421 --> 00:01:23,821 Mundanara Bayles: just hear about their journey and some of the things 20 00:01:23,821 --> 00:01:27,001 Mundanara Bayles: that they've been working on in the business which I 21 00:01:27,001 --> 00:01:29,340 Mundanara Bayles: think is really important, especially for a lot of our 22 00:01:30,331 --> 00:01:34,771 Mundanara Bayles: community members that might be thinking of opportunities in ANZ, 23 00:01:35,191 --> 00:01:37,501 Mundanara Bayles: or even if you are working in the business it 24 00:01:37,501 --> 00:01:39,961 Mundanara Bayles: would be good for you to even reach out to 25 00:01:39,961 --> 00:01:43,291 Mundanara Bayles: people like Kylie Cummings. So, sis, thank you so much 26 00:01:43,291 --> 00:01:45,450 Mundanara Bayles: for jumping on the podcast. If you don't mind, can 27 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:47,881 Mundanara Bayles: you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about your 28 00:01:47,881 --> 00:01:50,791 Mundanara Bayles: mob and where you grew up. And I always say this, 29 00:01:50,791 --> 00:01:52,921 Mundanara Bayles: is there anything that we can't find on Google? 30 00:01:54,061 --> 00:01:58,021 Kylie Cummings: Can't find on Google, there's a lot. Thanks, Mundanara. Yeah, so 31 00:01:58,111 --> 00:02:01,921 Kylie Cummings: start with my mob. I live in the Mornington Peninsula, 32 00:02:02,371 --> 00:02:05,191 Kylie Cummings: and I have two young kids, similar ages to some 33 00:02:05,191 --> 00:02:08,311 Kylie Cummings: of yours, 8 and 11, Lockie and Maisie, and my 34 00:02:08,311 --> 00:02:13,561 Kylie Cummings: lovely husband, Ricky Haywood. So we live on a beautiful 35 00:02:13,561 --> 00:02:16,201 Kylie Cummings: space up there, just overlooking the water, so that's nice. 36 00:02:16,201 --> 00:02:18,751 Kylie Cummings: We built out there a long time ago. But yes, 37 00:02:18,751 --> 00:02:22,591 Kylie Cummings: I am the domain lead for technology for the commercial 38 00:02:22,591 --> 00:02:27,300 Kylie Cummings: bank, and so I've been working at ANZ now for... my five- 39 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:32,401 Kylie Cummings: year anniversary's October. So yeah, we've been doing a lot 40 00:02:32,401 --> 00:02:34,351 Kylie Cummings: of great work from a technology point of view, but 41 00:02:34,351 --> 00:02:36,211 Kylie Cummings: I was really looking forward to this conversation so I 42 00:02:36,211 --> 00:02:38,491 Kylie Cummings: could share some of the stuff we're doing to support 43 00:02:38,491 --> 00:02:41,520 Kylie Cummings: our First Nations people and how I'm trying to give back. 44 00:02:41,641 --> 00:02:44,520 Mundanara Bayles: Yep, deadly. So I'm going to go back one step now because 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:48,151 Mundanara Bayles: you're telling me when you was about 10, and this 46 00:02:48,151 --> 00:02:50,550 Mundanara Bayles: is the kind of yarns that we have when we 47 00:02:50,550 --> 00:02:54,061 Mundanara Bayles: catch up, and it's part of that relationship building of 48 00:02:54,061 --> 00:02:55,591 Mundanara Bayles: getting to know each other, and I think it's a 49 00:02:55,591 --> 00:02:59,221 Mundanara Bayles: good opportunity for non- Aboriginal people to understand some of 50 00:02:59,221 --> 00:03:04,741 Mundanara Bayles: the impacts of colonialism and past government which the Stolen 51 00:03:04,741 --> 00:03:08,881 Mundanara Bayles: Generations was part of, the act or policy to remove 52 00:03:08,881 --> 00:03:13,171 Mundanara Bayles: Aboriginal children from their families and to assimilate us into 53 00:03:13,381 --> 00:03:19,050 Mundanara Bayles: white society and put into institutions or out on missions 54 00:03:19,050 --> 00:03:22,381 Mundanara Bayles: and refused a lot of things in terms of just 55 00:03:22,381 --> 00:03:25,831 Mundanara Bayles: basic and essential human rights which is to be able 56 00:03:25,831 --> 00:03:27,511 Mundanara Bayles: to stay with our families and to stay on our 57 00:03:27,511 --> 00:03:30,361 Mundanara Bayles: country and to practice our culture and to speak our 58 00:03:30,361 --> 00:03:33,631 Mundanara Bayles: language. So your family were impacted? 59 00:03:33,691 --> 00:03:37,951 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, massively so. So as we were talking earlier, I 60 00:03:37,951 --> 00:03:40,951 Kylie Cummings: found out that I had Aboriginal heritage when I was 61 00:03:40,981 --> 00:03:44,311 Kylie Cummings: 10, and it wasn't widely talked about in my family 62 00:03:44,311 --> 00:03:49,891 Kylie Cummings: because my grandmother was taught to hide it because they 63 00:03:49,891 --> 00:03:53,581 Kylie Cummings: were worried they were going to be taken. My nana, 64 00:03:53,581 --> 00:03:57,811 Kylie Cummings: if anybody asked, would say we were... What was it? 65 00:03:57,841 --> 00:03:58,321 Mundanara Bayles: Egyptian? 66 00:03:58,321 --> 00:03:58,322 Kylie Cummings: Egyptian. 67 00:03:58,322 --> 00:03:59,042 Mundanara Bayles: Maltese. 68 00:03:59,851 --> 00:04:00,691 Kylie Cummings: Maltese Egyptian. 69 00:04:00,781 --> 00:04:01,081 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah. 70 00:04:01,591 --> 00:04:01,832 Kylie Cummings: Yep. That was a- 71 00:04:01,832 --> 00:04:04,711 Mundanara Bayles: Not Black Irish or Spanish or Indian. So my nan 72 00:04:05,251 --> 00:04:08,521 Mundanara Bayles: assumed the identity of an Indian woman to keep her 73 00:04:08,521 --> 00:04:09,391 Mundanara Bayles: children, my mother. 74 00:04:09,451 --> 00:04:12,271 Kylie Cummings: Yeah. And we had a similar story. So when you 75 00:04:12,271 --> 00:04:15,841 Kylie Cummings: said that, it was maybe on our Black Card training, 76 00:04:16,291 --> 00:04:19,621 Kylie Cummings: all of a sudden I had an epiphany because literally 77 00:04:19,621 --> 00:04:22,321 Kylie Cummings: I think a month before, my dad and I had been doing ancestry. 78 00:04:22,501 --> 00:04:25,081 Kylie Cummings: com and we kind of were mapping our family tree. 79 00:04:25,201 --> 00:04:29,491 Kylie Cummings: And so we knew our grandfather, Joe Johnson, was half- 80 00:04:29,491 --> 00:04:32,160 Kylie Cummings: caste and his father- 81 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,501 Mundanara Bayles: Was that written on the documents, half- caste? 82 00:04:34,651 --> 00:04:40,470 Kylie Cummings: Yes. And so it was this, he was born in 83 00:04:40,470 --> 00:04:43,801 Kylie Cummings: Newcastle. It was really before ancestry. com. It was really hard 84 00:04:43,801 --> 00:04:48,301 Kylie Cummings: to track down the history. And so we found his documents. 85 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,061 Kylie Cummings: He actually served in Gallipoli as well. So we had 86 00:04:51,061 --> 00:04:54,031 Kylie Cummings: his war records, but all of this was really hard 87 00:04:54,031 --> 00:04:56,851 Kylie Cummings: to find, and we also, with my- 88 00:04:56,910 --> 00:04:58,231 Mundanara Bayles: It's like a jigsaw puzzle. 89 00:04:58,441 --> 00:05:00,631 Kylie Cummings: Ah, and it's an impossible jigsaw puzzle as well. 90 00:05:00,631 --> 00:05:05,160 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, they've literally made it next to impossible for mob 91 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,441 Mundanara Bayles: to find their family. 92 00:05:07,470 --> 00:05:09,511 Kylie Cummings: Well, and this is the thing, I'm still learning because 93 00:05:09,511 --> 00:05:11,791 Kylie Cummings: I think you asked me once who's my mob, I 94 00:05:11,791 --> 00:05:14,371 Kylie Cummings: still don't don't know who my mob is. I haven't had 95 00:05:14,371 --> 00:05:18,541 Kylie Cummings: the chance to follow it up. One of these days 96 00:05:18,541 --> 00:05:20,581 Kylie Cummings: Dad and I will do the work and we'll find it 97 00:05:20,581 --> 00:05:25,231 Kylie Cummings: out. But all we know is that my great- grandfather 98 00:05:25,231 --> 00:05:28,771 Kylie Cummings: was born in Newcastle. The reason he's easier to find 99 00:05:28,771 --> 00:05:32,581 Kylie Cummings: the most though is because he was the first Aboriginal 100 00:05:32,581 --> 00:05:36,660 Kylie Cummings: to play VFL football in Australia. So he played in 101 00:05:38,191 --> 00:05:42,541 Kylie Cummings: two grand finals in 1904 and 1905 for Fitzroy. So he's easily 102 00:05:42,541 --> 00:05:43,112 Kylie Cummings: searchable because- 103 00:05:43,112 --> 00:05:45,691 Mundanara Bayles: And he identified as Aboriginal back then? 104 00:05:45,751 --> 00:05:47,101 Kylie Cummings: Back then he did, yes. 105 00:05:47,131 --> 00:05:47,671 Mundanara Bayles: Okay. 106 00:05:47,731 --> 00:05:52,081 Kylie Cummings: So it wasn't until, I think, I'm not sure when 107 00:05:52,081 --> 00:05:54,601 Kylie Cummings: it would've happened, but my nana at some point was 108 00:05:54,601 --> 00:05:57,720 Kylie Cummings: told basically to tell people that she was Maltese Egyptian. 109 00:05:58,891 --> 00:06:02,311 Kylie Cummings: It wasn't until, so there was this article coming out 110 00:06:02,311 --> 00:06:06,121 Kylie Cummings: in the paper when I was I'd say about 16. 111 00:06:06,121 --> 00:06:07,861 Kylie Cummings: So it was when my brother was playing footy for 112 00:06:07,861 --> 00:06:10,531 Kylie Cummings: Fitzroy, but an article was coming out in The Age 113 00:06:10,531 --> 00:06:15,121 Kylie Cummings: of four generations of AFL Aboriginal footballers, and that's when 114 00:06:15,121 --> 00:06:17,611 Kylie Cummings: it all came out because my dad hid it, no 115 00:06:17,611 --> 00:06:20,761 Kylie Cummings: one knew, my brothers would hide it. I was a 116 00:06:20,761 --> 00:06:24,121 Kylie Cummings: bit different, as you can imagine. When I found out 117 00:06:24,121 --> 00:06:27,181 Kylie Cummings: I had Aboriginal heritage, I went to school and I 118 00:06:27,181 --> 00:06:29,371 Kylie Cummings: told everybody at show- and- tell that I was Aboriginal, 119 00:06:29,371 --> 00:06:32,431 Kylie Cummings: I was so proud, and pretty much that's the way 120 00:06:32,431 --> 00:06:34,561 Kylie Cummings: I spent my whole entire life. My family thought I 121 00:06:34,561 --> 00:06:37,410 Kylie Cummings: was crazy. When that article came out, my dad rang 122 00:06:37,410 --> 00:06:41,131 Kylie Cummings: my nana because he knew her sensitivity around it, and 123 00:06:41,131 --> 00:06:43,171 Kylie Cummings: the thing she said to him, he remembers it clearly. 124 00:06:43,231 --> 00:06:47,611 Kylie Cummings: She said, " Okay, darling, but just be careful. If the 125 00:06:47,611 --> 00:06:49,831 Kylie Cummings: government come to your door, don't let them in." And 126 00:06:49,831 --> 00:06:50,761 Kylie Cummings: my dad didn't- 127 00:06:50,761 --> 00:06:51,781 Mundanara Bayles: That's the trauma. 128 00:06:52,171 --> 00:06:56,701 Kylie Cummings: Well, Dad didn't even know what she meant because my 129 00:06:56,701 --> 00:06:59,341 Kylie Cummings: dad hadn't grown up with that kind of fear. 130 00:06:59,371 --> 00:07:02,701 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, it's so far removed from your experience and your dad's 131 00:07:02,701 --> 00:07:04,711 Mundanara Bayles: experience as whitefellas. 132 00:07:04,741 --> 00:07:08,011 Kylie Cummings: Yes. And if you met my dad, I think we 133 00:07:08,011 --> 00:07:10,261 Kylie Cummings: were talking about my nana last night, and she was 134 00:07:10,261 --> 00:07:13,651 Kylie Cummings: this short little lady, about five foot nothing with really 135 00:07:13,651 --> 00:07:18,241 Kylie Cummings: tight black curls, beautiful brown eyes, but because her mum 136 00:07:18,241 --> 00:07:22,411 Kylie Cummings: was Irish she was like pale as a ghost. My 137 00:07:22,411 --> 00:07:26,731 Kylie Cummings: dad's very similar coloring so wasn't actually... My dad told 138 00:07:26,731 --> 00:07:30,091 Kylie Cummings: me recently his story. He actually went to his uncle 139 00:07:30,211 --> 00:07:32,521 Kylie Cummings: because it wasn't discussed, and he went to his uncle 140 00:07:32,521 --> 00:07:36,391 Kylie Cummings: when he was playing footy and he said, " Uncle, people 141 00:07:36,391 --> 00:07:39,811 Kylie Cummings: keep on telling me I'm Italian, I'm this, I'm that. I don't 142 00:07:39,811 --> 00:07:42,271 Kylie Cummings: know who I am. Who am I?" Because they wouldn't 143 00:07:42,271 --> 00:07:42,812 Kylie Cummings: talk about it. 144 00:07:42,812 --> 00:07:42,962 Mundanara Bayles: Of course. 145 00:07:43,531 --> 00:07:45,901 Kylie Cummings: And he went to his uncle, he went, " Who are 146 00:07:45,901 --> 00:07:49,441 Kylie Cummings: we? Where's our heritage?" And so my uncle then told 147 00:07:49,441 --> 00:07:52,951 Kylie Cummings: him, but I think my dad would've been about 16, 17, 148 00:07:52,966 --> 00:07:56,581 Kylie Cummings: maybe 18, something along those lines. And it's a big 149 00:07:56,581 --> 00:08:00,301 Kylie Cummings: thing of knowing your identity. We didn't know, and I 150 00:08:00,301 --> 00:08:03,631 Kylie Cummings: still don't know, and I'm really interested to find out, 151 00:08:03,631 --> 00:08:05,641 Kylie Cummings: so the more conversations we have, the more I learn. 152 00:08:05,701 --> 00:08:06,061 Mundanara Bayles: Of course. 153 00:08:06,901 --> 00:08:12,121 Kylie Cummings: The story around your nana, about that Indian heritage, so 154 00:08:12,121 --> 00:08:15,151 Kylie Cummings: on the ancestry. com, it had that my great- great- 155 00:08:15,151 --> 00:08:18,931 Kylie Cummings: grandfather, which was interesting, was Indian, but he had two 156 00:08:18,931 --> 00:08:22,801 Kylie Cummings: white parents on ancestry. com, and I'm like, " How does 157 00:08:22,801 --> 00:08:24,061 Kylie Cummings: that work exactly?" 158 00:08:25,231 --> 00:08:27,871 Mundanara Bayles: Well, they adopted him. He must have been adopted by 159 00:08:27,871 --> 00:08:28,472 Mundanara Bayles: the two white parents. 160 00:08:28,472 --> 00:08:31,981 Kylie Cummings: Must have. Yes. We don't know. And so we tracked, they go 161 00:08:31,981 --> 00:08:33,871 Kylie Cummings: back to England, but yes. 162 00:08:34,951 --> 00:08:39,931 Mundanara Bayles: You can't pinpoint your country and your connection to community. 163 00:08:39,991 --> 00:08:40,291 Kylie Cummings: No. 164 00:08:40,621 --> 00:08:41,131 Mundanara Bayles: Not yet. 165 00:08:41,251 --> 00:08:42,211 Kylie Cummings: Not yet. We'll get there. 166 00:08:42,241 --> 00:08:45,721 Mundanara Bayles: We'll get there. And I love this, Kylie, that we 167 00:08:45,721 --> 00:08:48,871 Mundanara Bayles: get to have these yarns because a lot of Aboriginal 168 00:08:48,871 --> 00:08:52,560 Mundanara Bayles: people, whether you've grown up Aboriginal or you found out 169 00:08:53,131 --> 00:08:57,060 Mundanara Bayles: 10 years ago or 20 years ago, some people might 170 00:08:57,060 --> 00:09:01,381 Mundanara Bayles: feel a little bit defeated or deflated or lost or 171 00:09:01,381 --> 00:09:06,781 Mundanara Bayles: there's too many blockers, like we got to this, dead 172 00:09:06,781 --> 00:09:10,531 Mundanara Bayles: ends, can't find it, and some people give up. Some 173 00:09:10,531 --> 00:09:14,281 Mundanara Bayles: people live their whole life searching for their mob. 174 00:09:14,371 --> 00:09:18,091 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, and I think it's one of these things where 175 00:09:18,331 --> 00:09:21,750 Kylie Cummings: I think I'm a... Family's important, hugely important to me. 176 00:09:23,041 --> 00:09:29,310 Kylie Cummings: We have an extremely large family, but it's putting the pieces 177 00:09:29,310 --> 00:09:31,231 Kylie Cummings: of the puzzle together because there's so much my dad 178 00:09:31,231 --> 00:09:34,351 Kylie Cummings: still doesn't know. When I listened to your Black Card 179 00:09:34,351 --> 00:09:36,810 Kylie Cummings: training, I said this to you last night, I had to go 180 00:09:36,810 --> 00:09:38,161 Kylie Cummings: off camera at one point because I ended up in 181 00:09:38,161 --> 00:09:44,131 Kylie Cummings: tears because I recognized, it was too familiar and it 182 00:09:44,131 --> 00:09:47,341 Kylie Cummings: was too emotional and too raw because there's a whole 183 00:09:47,341 --> 00:09:48,631 Kylie Cummings: piece of you you just don't know. 184 00:09:48,931 --> 00:09:51,121 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah. And you know what? I talk about that at 185 00:09:51,121 --> 00:09:53,821 Mundanara Bayles: the Black Card training that I am actually the first 186 00:09:53,821 --> 00:09:56,731 Mundanara Bayles: generation on my mother's side that was not forcibly removed 187 00:09:56,731 --> 00:09:57,840 Mundanara Bayles: under government policy. 188 00:09:58,021 --> 00:09:58,560 Kylie Cummings: Wow. 189 00:09:59,161 --> 00:10:01,951 Mundanara Bayles: My mother was removed and her mother was removed, and 190 00:10:01,951 --> 00:10:06,301 Mundanara Bayles: I've got five generations of my mother's side, my grandmothers 191 00:10:06,301 --> 00:10:09,961 Mundanara Bayles: and my great- grannnies that were all institutionalized and sent 192 00:10:09,961 --> 00:10:12,631 Mundanara Bayles: out to work as domestic servants, and I've got the 193 00:10:12,631 --> 00:10:16,381 Mundanara Bayles: records there. I've got all of the evidence there about my 194 00:10:16,381 --> 00:10:19,591 Mundanara Bayles: family history. So my mother had red hair and freckles. 195 00:10:19,591 --> 00:10:22,831 Mundanara Bayles: Her name was Catherine Maria O'Reilly. Her dad was an Irishman. 196 00:10:23,101 --> 00:10:23,701 Kylie Cummings: O'Reilly, love it. 197 00:10:23,701 --> 00:10:27,421 Mundanara Bayles: And she just said, " I'm a Koori woman." She used 198 00:10:27,421 --> 00:10:30,721 Mundanara Bayles: to say we're Gweagal but we didn't know where Gweagal country 199 00:10:30,721 --> 00:10:35,491 Mundanara Bayles: was. And my mother passed 23 years ago, I was 18, and by the time 200 00:10:35,491 --> 00:10:38,161 Mundanara Bayles: she passed, we knew that we were Wonnarua from the 201 00:10:38,161 --> 00:10:41,940 Mundanara Bayles: Hunter Valley outside of Newcastle. So we could be related. 202 00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:42,391 Kylie Cummings: We could. 203 00:10:42,481 --> 00:10:44,431 Mundanara Bayles: We could be. 204 00:10:44,431 --> 00:10:45,720 Kylie Cummings: All of a sudden a lot would make sense. 205 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,681 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah. We just clicked when we first met, and I 206 00:10:49,681 --> 00:10:52,141 Mundanara Bayles: didn't even know Kylie was an Aboriginal woman. 207 00:10:52,141 --> 00:10:54,631 Kylie Cummings: No. I was always very proud of it, and so 208 00:10:54,631 --> 00:10:56,641 Kylie Cummings: it's hilarious, when you say you don't tick the box, 209 00:10:57,511 --> 00:10:58,591 Kylie Cummings: I feel like I tick it twice. 210 00:10:58,621 --> 00:10:59,401 Mundanara Bayles: You let everyone know. 211 00:10:59,401 --> 00:11:00,212 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, I let everybody know. 212 00:11:00,212 --> 00:11:01,172 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, you're not undercover at all. 213 00:11:01,172 --> 00:11:04,741 Kylie Cummings: I don't live in fear about it. I'm extremely proud about 214 00:11:04,741 --> 00:11:06,871 Kylie Cummings: it, and there's very few people who have been able to intimidate 215 00:11:06,871 --> 00:11:08,431 Kylie Cummings: me about it, but there have been a few. 216 00:11:08,940 --> 00:11:12,091 Mundanara Bayles: Because you're strong within who you are in your own identity. 217 00:11:12,211 --> 00:11:12,751 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, absolutely. 218 00:11:13,591 --> 00:11:15,391 Mundanara Bayles: I'm strong in my identity, but I could tell you 219 00:11:15,391 --> 00:11:16,051 Mundanara Bayles: now, Kylie- 220 00:11:16,231 --> 00:11:16,981 Kylie Cummings: It's different though. 221 00:11:16,981 --> 00:11:21,481 Mundanara Bayles: Sometimes, there's sometimes, and I can navigate public spaces and 222 00:11:21,481 --> 00:11:25,381 Mundanara Bayles: no one knows I'm Aboriginal, sometimes I try and fly under the 223 00:11:25,381 --> 00:11:30,601 Mundanara Bayles: radar, sometimes just to have a normal day so I 224 00:11:30,601 --> 00:11:32,911 Mundanara Bayles: don't have to do cultural awareness with an Uber driver. 225 00:11:33,031 --> 00:11:33,361 Kylie Cummings: Oh god. 226 00:11:33,721 --> 00:11:36,690 Mundanara Bayles: And just fly under the radar. But anyways, in terms 227 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:41,461 Mundanara Bayles: of now, here you are at ANZ. I know that you've been on 228 00:11:41,461 --> 00:11:45,121 Mundanara Bayles: a journey within the business and been kicking some goals. 229 00:11:45,121 --> 00:11:45,211 Kylie Cummings: Try. 230 00:11:45,211 --> 00:11:48,841 Mundanara Bayles: And I just want to say thank you for bringing 231 00:11:48,841 --> 00:11:52,351 Mundanara Bayles: me in not that long ago to do a half- 232 00:11:52,351 --> 00:11:57,301 Mundanara Bayles: day session in person with a senior leadership group. That 233 00:11:57,301 --> 00:11:58,231 Mundanara Bayles: was pretty deadly. 234 00:11:58,291 --> 00:12:02,281 Kylie Cummings: No, that was great. Look, I'm constantly championing for people 235 00:12:02,281 --> 00:12:05,310 Kylie Cummings: to do the Black Card training because regardless of... and 236 00:12:05,310 --> 00:12:07,321 Kylie Cummings: obviously at ANZ we have a lot of people from 237 00:12:07,321 --> 00:12:08,791 Kylie Cummings: all different backgrounds. 238 00:12:09,721 --> 00:12:12,871 Mundanara Bayles: That's Australia, 300 different nationalities. 239 00:12:12,901 --> 00:12:17,701 Kylie Cummings: Well, and Melbourne's the mecca because it's... And this is 240 00:12:17,761 --> 00:12:19,891 Kylie Cummings: the funny thing is I've always grown up with all 241 00:12:19,891 --> 00:12:25,351 Kylie Cummings: different nationalities. So it's really important that people understand because 242 00:12:25,351 --> 00:12:27,451 Kylie Cummings: the other thing is is the Black Card training is 243 00:12:27,451 --> 00:12:33,601 Kylie Cummings: amazing but it's challenging because we learnt a certain history 244 00:12:33,601 --> 00:12:37,141 Kylie Cummings: at school, and then it's not that you give us 245 00:12:37,141 --> 00:12:39,721 Kylie Cummings: a different history, you give us a different slant on 246 00:12:39,721 --> 00:12:40,261 Kylie Cummings: the history. 247 00:12:41,431 --> 00:12:41,762 Mundanara Bayles: A different perspective. 248 00:12:41,762 --> 00:12:42,271 Kylie Cummings: There's a different perspective. 249 00:12:42,271 --> 00:12:43,621 Mundanara Bayles: An Aboriginal perspective. 250 00:12:43,681 --> 00:12:45,601 Kylie Cummings: Well, we were never taught the Aboriginal perspective. It was 251 00:12:45,601 --> 00:12:48,901 Kylie Cummings: just the English one, not that I remember anyway, so 252 00:12:49,051 --> 00:12:51,391 Kylie Cummings: mind you, I am getting older these days, but we 253 00:12:51,391 --> 00:12:55,141 Kylie Cummings: weren't taught it, and it was really nice. Actually my 254 00:12:55,141 --> 00:12:57,331 Kylie Cummings: boss said to me, he said, " Kylie, I can't wait." 255 00:12:57,331 --> 00:13:01,651 Kylie Cummings: He was really excited about it. " I can't wait," because he's 256 00:13:01,651 --> 00:13:06,511 Kylie Cummings: from Ireland and he found it really interesting because obviously 257 00:13:06,601 --> 00:13:07,802 Kylie Cummings: Ireland's been oppressed, right? 258 00:13:07,802 --> 00:13:08,222 Mundanara Bayles: Similarity, yeah. 259 00:13:08,821 --> 00:13:11,161 Kylie Cummings: So yeah, the whole team loved it. It was great. I 260 00:13:11,161 --> 00:13:13,021 Kylie Cummings: warned them, I said, " You go on a roller coaster 261 00:13:13,021 --> 00:13:15,451 Kylie Cummings: ride." I said, " I ended up in tears, but it's 262 00:13:15,451 --> 00:13:17,071 Kylie Cummings: a good roller coaster ride because at the end of 263 00:13:17,071 --> 00:13:20,161 Kylie Cummings: it you want to do something." And I think part 264 00:13:20,161 --> 00:13:25,471 Kylie Cummings: of when I did the Black Card training, I'd been 265 00:13:25,981 --> 00:13:29,761 Kylie Cummings: asked by Gerard Florian to represent group technology on The 266 00:13:29,761 --> 00:13:33,690 Kylie Cummings: Wrap. So I do that, which I love what the 267 00:13:33,690 --> 00:13:36,091 Kylie Cummings: team are trying to do there. Lou and her team 268 00:13:36,091 --> 00:13:39,481 Kylie Cummings: are just fantastic. And then it made me think about, 269 00:13:39,481 --> 00:13:43,440 Kylie Cummings: well, how can I give back. And so what I 270 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,661 Kylie Cummings: talked to Lou about, and Gerard and Paul who are 271 00:13:45,661 --> 00:13:48,841 Kylie Cummings: highly supportive of it, is building out a technology career 272 00:13:48,841 --> 00:13:50,282 Kylie Cummings: pathway for indigenous students, young people. 273 00:13:50,282 --> 00:13:51,751 Mundanara Bayles: Students, kids. 274 00:13:52,051 --> 00:13:57,331 Kylie Cummings: Well, kids, it's because I'm 45, cut that out, but 275 00:13:57,690 --> 00:14:00,151 Kylie Cummings: anybody who's 18 now is a kid to me. But 276 00:14:00,241 --> 00:14:03,871 Kylie Cummings: it's about giving them the opportunity and showing them what 277 00:14:03,871 --> 00:14:06,181 Kylie Cummings: they can do. If you're good at maths or not 278 00:14:06,181 --> 00:14:08,971 Kylie Cummings: even, it's not even that. There are so many career pathways, but 279 00:14:08,971 --> 00:14:11,761 Kylie Cummings: I kind of thought of engineering career pathways because my 280 00:14:11,761 --> 00:14:14,791 Kylie Cummings: logic, this is kind of where my mind goes is 281 00:14:14,791 --> 00:14:17,521 Kylie Cummings: I went, " Right, how do we keep people with their 282 00:14:17,521 --> 00:14:22,321 Kylie Cummings: communities? Well, with technology, you can work from anywhere, especially 283 00:14:22,321 --> 00:14:26,611 Kylie Cummings: engineers, so coding. People can learn coding, but people can 284 00:14:26,611 --> 00:14:29,311 Kylie Cummings: teach coding themselves if they really want to. So how 285 00:14:29,311 --> 00:14:31,861 Kylie Cummings: do we enable that?" And so I actually met up 286 00:14:31,861 --> 00:14:34,621 Kylie Cummings: with a great organization recently, and we're just still in early 287 00:14:34,621 --> 00:14:38,281 Kylie Cummings: stages, but Deadly Coders, and we're working through what does that 288 00:14:38,281 --> 00:14:40,261 Kylie Cummings: look like, what does the cohorts need to look like, 289 00:14:40,261 --> 00:14:42,091 Kylie Cummings: how do we make it a success, because as you 290 00:14:42,091 --> 00:14:44,491 Kylie Cummings: can imagine, there's numerous things you need to think about 291 00:14:44,761 --> 00:14:46,471 Kylie Cummings: to make it a success. How do you support these 292 00:14:46,471 --> 00:14:48,751 Kylie Cummings: kids when they come into... Because what we're trying to 293 00:14:48,751 --> 00:14:50,941 Kylie Cummings: look at is Melbourne first, so how do you support 294 00:14:50,941 --> 00:14:53,161 Kylie Cummings: these kids, how do you make sure, like with all 295 00:14:53,161 --> 00:14:56,281 Kylie Cummings: grads, that they come in together, that they can support each 296 00:14:56,281 --> 00:14:58,351 Kylie Cummings: other, that they have the right mentors in place, that 297 00:14:58,351 --> 00:15:00,361 Kylie Cummings: we have the right feedback loops to make sure that 298 00:15:00,361 --> 00:15:02,701 Kylie Cummings: they're getting what they need, and because every kid's different. 299 00:15:02,731 --> 00:15:05,371 Kylie Cummings: We'll be looking at how do we bring in a 300 00:15:05,371 --> 00:15:07,801 Kylie Cummings: cohort of students, how do we support them, and then 301 00:15:07,801 --> 00:15:09,721 Kylie Cummings: how do we basically expand that out further. So that's 302 00:15:09,721 --> 00:15:11,641 Kylie Cummings: some of the work that we are doing. But also one of my 303 00:15:11,641 --> 00:15:13,711 Kylie Cummings: colleagues, Ben Anderson, can't take credit for this at all, 304 00:15:14,191 --> 00:15:17,551 Kylie Cummings: he's also looking at how do we actually extend career 305 00:15:17,551 --> 00:15:21,061 Kylie Cummings: pathways. So we've got a lot of indigenous Australians working 306 00:15:21,061 --> 00:15:24,511 Kylie Cummings: in our branches, and what we're looking at is how 307 00:15:24,511 --> 00:15:26,791 Kylie Cummings: do we actually bring them into technology. So he's looking 308 00:15:26,791 --> 00:15:29,131 Kylie Cummings: at career pathways for that as well. So there's a 309 00:15:29,131 --> 00:15:31,351 Kylie Cummings: lot of stuff that we are doing, and that's just a couple 310 00:15:31,351 --> 00:15:34,262 Kylie Cummings: of things that I'm across, so yeah, no. 311 00:15:34,262 --> 00:15:37,981 Mundanara Bayles: Yes. Well, there was one really good program that I got 312 00:15:37,981 --> 00:15:40,921 Mundanara Bayles: to be part of, and you invited me with a 313 00:15:40,921 --> 00:15:45,811 Mundanara Bayles: beautiful Māori sister as well who works in ANZ, and 314 00:15:45,811 --> 00:15:47,281 Mundanara Bayles: I'm trying to think of her, Megan. 315 00:15:47,281 --> 00:15:47,971 Kylie Cummings: Megan Tapsell. 316 00:15:47,971 --> 00:15:51,601 Mundanara Bayles: I remembered your name and I've only met you twice, 317 00:15:51,661 --> 00:15:56,761 Mundanara Bayles: but Megan and I were able to co- facilitate our 318 00:15:56,761 --> 00:16:00,541 Mundanara Bayles: session to your grads. It was part of their onboarding, 319 00:16:00,541 --> 00:16:03,481 Mundanara Bayles: their first week. Was it their second day in the business? 320 00:16:03,481 --> 00:16:04,171 Kylie Cummings: I'm not sure. 321 00:16:04,171 --> 00:16:04,711 Mundanara Bayles: Or third day? 322 00:16:04,711 --> 00:16:06,361 Kylie Cummings: But yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, because remember I was sick. 323 00:16:07,111 --> 00:16:07,262 Mundanara Bayles: You were sick. You got COVID. 324 00:16:07,262 --> 00:16:10,591 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, good old COVID. I was so upset. I was so looking forward 325 00:16:10,591 --> 00:16:10,711 Kylie Cummings: to it. 326 00:16:10,711 --> 00:16:14,701 Mundanara Bayles: Because you were going to moderate the panel discussion with Megan 327 00:16:14,701 --> 00:16:14,852 Mundanara Bayles: and I. 328 00:16:14,852 --> 00:16:16,591 Kylie Cummings: I think I may have dodged a bullet there because 329 00:16:16,591 --> 00:16:18,301 Kylie Cummings: I don't think I would've got a word in edgewise. 330 00:16:19,351 --> 00:16:22,051 Mundanara Bayles: We done really well. We did do it within the 331 00:16:22,051 --> 00:16:24,121 Mundanara Bayles: time. But you know what? For a lot of those 332 00:16:24,541 --> 00:16:27,991 Mundanara Bayles: big corporates that are listening to this yarn, having your 333 00:16:28,081 --> 00:16:33,241 Mundanara Bayles: 100 or whatever grads in the room, starry- eyed, don't 334 00:16:33,241 --> 00:16:36,991 Mundanara Bayles: know about reconciliation. So this was an opportunity for me 335 00:16:36,991 --> 00:16:40,981 Mundanara Bayles: to talk about ANZ. There was one of your team 336 00:16:40,981 --> 00:16:42,811 Mundanara Bayles: members that spoke about your Wrap before us anyway. 337 00:16:43,231 --> 00:16:43,472 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, yeah, yep. That would've been Luke. 338 00:16:43,472 --> 00:16:49,831 Mundanara Bayles: There was a good segue into Megan and I talking about indigenous 339 00:16:49,891 --> 00:16:56,491 Mundanara Bayles: knowledges and storytelling and just weaving in our culture and 340 00:16:56,701 --> 00:17:01,291 Mundanara Bayles: how we could influence the way that leaders, how leaders 341 00:17:01,291 --> 00:17:05,461 Mundanara Bayles: within the business can be guided by Aboriginal knowledge and 342 00:17:05,491 --> 00:17:10,411 Mundanara Bayles: Aboriginal ways of knowing, being, and doing. But this is 343 00:17:10,441 --> 00:17:11,431 Mundanara Bayles: your grads. 344 00:17:11,611 --> 00:17:14,941 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, and this is the thing though that's important that you teach. It 345 00:17:14,941 --> 00:17:17,611 Kylie Cummings: was kind of like in the Black Card training, it was like I 346 00:17:17,611 --> 00:17:19,471 Kylie Cummings: had a bit of an epiphany moment. There were a 347 00:17:19,471 --> 00:17:22,411 Kylie Cummings: few things that you said within there around how you 348 00:17:22,411 --> 00:17:27,331 Kylie Cummings: introduce yourself. It's about where you're from, your family, that's who you 349 00:17:27,331 --> 00:17:31,951 Kylie Cummings: are, which I loved because I do that. Those people 350 00:17:31,951 --> 00:17:34,531 Kylie Cummings: who know me who will be listening to this know 351 00:17:34,531 --> 00:17:37,921 Kylie Cummings: that I lead with who are you. We have a 352 00:17:37,921 --> 00:17:40,500 Kylie Cummings: conversation first before we get down to business, and you go, " That's how 353 00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:41,101 Kylie Cummings: we do things." 354 00:17:41,101 --> 00:17:43,291 Mundanara Bayles: That's it. And so that's being relational. 355 00:17:43,351 --> 00:17:46,951 Kylie Cummings: Yes. And sometimes I get pulled up on that going, " 356 00:17:46,951 --> 00:17:48,302 Kylie Cummings: Kylie, you might want to just get down to business," but it's- 357 00:17:48,302 --> 00:17:52,081 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, because they think traditionally that's- 358 00:17:52,141 --> 00:17:53,101 Kylie Cummings: You're wasting time. 359 00:17:53,131 --> 00:17:57,781 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, but also your personal stuff and your professional is 360 00:17:57,781 --> 00:18:00,151 Mundanara Bayles: two different things. So in the workplace- 361 00:18:00,691 --> 00:18:01,471 Kylie Cummings: be all business. 362 00:18:01,471 --> 00:18:03,811 Mundanara Bayles: It's all business, and we keep it professional and we 363 00:18:03,811 --> 00:18:06,151 Mundanara Bayles: leave the kind of the human part of us and 364 00:18:06,151 --> 00:18:08,431 Mundanara Bayles: the biggest part, most important part of us, kind of 365 00:18:08,431 --> 00:18:12,511 Mundanara Bayles: out or unless we've really got good relationships then we 366 00:18:12,601 --> 00:18:16,500 Mundanara Bayles: are more comfortable, but otherwise, it's strictly your titles and 367 00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:17,581 Mundanara Bayles: your job function. 368 00:18:19,231 --> 00:18:19,232 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, that's usually the introduction. 369 00:18:19,232 --> 00:18:20,701 Mundanara Bayles: And the agenda, and we've only got half an hour. 370 00:18:20,731 --> 00:18:25,020 Kylie Cummings: Yeah. And so I loved when you, me, and Megan met, it was, right- 371 00:18:25,231 --> 00:18:25,351 Mundanara Bayles: We went straight in to- 372 00:18:25,351 --> 00:18:28,021 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, this is how we're going to introduce ourselves. 373 00:18:28,051 --> 00:18:30,931 Mundanara Bayles: In Aboriginal terms of reference, and Megan's like, " This is perfect." 374 00:18:31,291 --> 00:18:34,801 Mundanara Bayles: Because for Maori people, and I'm not saying I'm an 375 00:18:34,801 --> 00:18:39,571 Mundanara Bayles: expert in Maori culture, but very similar, my family, my 376 00:18:39,661 --> 00:18:44,041 Mundanara Bayles: iwi, your tribe and your mountain and maybe your river 377 00:18:44,041 --> 00:18:48,571 Mundanara Bayles: or the canoe, there was this whole introduction that was 378 00:18:48,571 --> 00:18:53,341 Mundanara Bayles: based on where I'm from rather than this is what I do. 379 00:18:53,341 --> 00:18:57,781 Mundanara Bayles: So Megan was like, " This is easy and we're just 380 00:18:57,781 --> 00:19:02,161 Mundanara Bayles: going to do this," and we gave the grads an activity 381 00:19:02,731 --> 00:19:04,081 Mundanara Bayles: for them to get to know- 382 00:19:04,261 --> 00:19:04,442 Kylie Cummings: Each other. 383 00:19:04,442 --> 00:19:05,521 Mundanara Bayles: ... each other. 384 00:19:05,821 --> 00:19:08,281 Kylie Cummings: But it cements a relationship, and this is the thing 385 00:19:08,281 --> 00:19:11,911 Kylie Cummings: that I get told I'm good at is creating relationships, 386 00:19:11,911 --> 00:19:15,091 Kylie Cummings: and it's because I do it that way. It's not 387 00:19:15,361 --> 00:19:19,051 Kylie Cummings: actually anything that I do. It's not a deliberate thing. It's just 388 00:19:19,051 --> 00:19:20,582 Kylie Cummings: who I am, and also is- 389 00:19:20,582 --> 00:19:22,621 Mundanara Bayles: It's more natural. That's how you operate. 390 00:19:22,621 --> 00:19:24,151 Kylie Cummings: That's how I operate. And the other thing you said 391 00:19:24,151 --> 00:19:26,701 Kylie Cummings: to me around Aboriginal culture which I love was that 392 00:19:26,701 --> 00:19:30,841 Kylie Cummings: it's not hierarchical. There is no boss. All of a 393 00:19:30,841 --> 00:19:32,911 Kylie Cummings: sudden I went, " Oh, my life makes sense." 394 00:19:32,911 --> 00:19:33,421 Mundanara Bayles: Yes. Yes. 395 00:19:33,421 --> 00:19:36,782 Kylie Cummings: I don't think I've ever recognized hierarchy in my life. People are just people. 396 00:19:36,782 --> 00:19:37,981 Mundanara Bayles: You don't put yourself above- 397 00:19:38,250 --> 00:19:38,581 Kylie Cummings: No. 398 00:19:38,641 --> 00:19:40,051 Mundanara Bayles: Don't put yourself above other people. 399 00:19:40,261 --> 00:19:43,351 Kylie Cummings: No, never. Never have, never will. It's not how I'm built. 400 00:19:43,531 --> 00:19:43,951 Mundanara Bayles: I love this. 401 00:19:43,951 --> 00:19:45,151 Kylie Cummings: Everybody's equal. 402 00:19:45,301 --> 00:19:47,431 Mundanara Bayles: I love this. And it's interesting in terms of just 403 00:19:47,431 --> 00:19:51,601 Mundanara Bayles: working in a ANZ, and quite hierarchical, right? 404 00:19:51,601 --> 00:19:52,561 Kylie Cummings: Banks can be yes. 405 00:19:52,591 --> 00:19:58,651 Mundanara Bayles: But just Western society, it's highly competitive, highly egotistical, and 406 00:19:58,651 --> 00:20:01,951 Mundanara Bayles: it's all about the individual and quite judgmental. 407 00:20:02,221 --> 00:20:02,401 Kylie Cummings: Can be, yeah. 408 00:20:02,581 --> 00:20:05,221 Mundanara Bayles: So how do we bring these two worlds closer together? And 409 00:20:05,221 --> 00:20:08,851 Mundanara Bayles: I think that's the beauty of Black Card training is 410 00:20:08,851 --> 00:20:11,881 Mundanara Bayles: that we're teaching, or we're not teaching, we're educating people 411 00:20:12,541 --> 00:20:15,631 Mundanara Bayles: about the tens of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge 412 00:20:15,631 --> 00:20:18,811 Mundanara Bayles: that comes from this land and how do we utilize 413 00:20:18,811 --> 00:20:24,481 Mundanara Bayles: this knowledge to inform how we lead or just in 414 00:20:24,481 --> 00:20:27,721 Mundanara Bayles: terms of just how we be better human beings, how 415 00:20:27,721 --> 00:20:28,981 Mundanara Bayles: do we be a good human. 416 00:20:29,041 --> 00:20:32,881 Kylie Cummings: And it's amazing how it did take everybody on a 417 00:20:32,881 --> 00:20:34,981 Kylie Cummings: roller coaster ride, and it does everybody which I love, 418 00:20:36,151 --> 00:20:38,881 Kylie Cummings: and I did say to you, I don't know how you've structured that, but you've structured it perfectly, 419 00:20:39,091 --> 00:20:41,071 Kylie Cummings: and I know there's method in the madness, I have 420 00:20:41,071 --> 00:20:45,571 Kylie Cummings: no doubts, but it's one of those things where you 421 00:20:45,571 --> 00:20:48,661 Kylie Cummings: take away from it what you... you can't remember everything, but 422 00:20:48,661 --> 00:20:51,361 Kylie Cummings: there was so much I took away from it and 423 00:20:51,451 --> 00:20:53,461 Kylie Cummings: so much of me all of a sudden made sense. 424 00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:56,011 Mundanara Bayles: Good, and that's what we love for Aboriginal people to 425 00:20:56,011 --> 00:20:58,831 Mundanara Bayles: be able to make sense of who they are and 426 00:20:58,831 --> 00:21:02,161 Mundanara Bayles: why they do, their habits, their values. 427 00:21:02,581 --> 00:21:06,841 Kylie Cummings: It made me start thinking about what was genetic versus 428 00:21:06,841 --> 00:21:10,021 Kylie Cummings: learnt, things like that. But it was just such an 429 00:21:10,021 --> 00:21:14,101 Kylie Cummings: amazing... So frankly, if you take on those things around 430 00:21:15,121 --> 00:21:17,851 Kylie Cummings: creating relationships, it does make you a great leader. If 431 00:21:17,851 --> 00:21:20,671 Kylie Cummings: you are a person who people can relate to, and I'm 432 00:21:20,671 --> 00:21:24,961 Kylie Cummings: really lucky, I have my boss, Paul White, he's an 433 00:21:24,961 --> 00:21:30,091 Kylie Cummings: amazing leader. He's very personable and he cares, genuinely cares. 434 00:21:31,081 --> 00:21:34,921 Kylie Cummings: And then you've got Gerard Florian, again, similar dynamic, right? 435 00:21:35,041 --> 00:21:40,561 Kylie Cummings: But I think it's one of those things around being 436 00:21:40,561 --> 00:21:44,341 Kylie Cummings: able to engage with your people if they know who 437 00:21:44,341 --> 00:21:48,961 Kylie Cummings: you are and they love the... the key thing that 438 00:21:48,961 --> 00:21:52,441 Kylie Cummings: I always say with culture within my area is if 439 00:21:52,441 --> 00:21:54,301 Kylie Cummings: people come in and they love who they work with and 440 00:21:54,301 --> 00:21:56,941 Kylie Cummings: they love what they do, it's not work and they 441 00:21:56,941 --> 00:21:58,051 Kylie Cummings: perform at their best. 442 00:21:58,051 --> 00:21:58,621 Mundanara Bayles: Of course. 443 00:21:58,681 --> 00:22:02,281 Kylie Cummings: And so that's why, and you're right, banks, actually large 444 00:22:02,281 --> 00:22:05,671 Kylie Cummings: enterprises can be completely hierarchical, but it's about us as 445 00:22:05,671 --> 00:22:07,321 Kylie Cummings: leaders making sure we're more approachable. 446 00:22:08,071 --> 00:22:11,161 Mundanara Bayles: I'm going to ask you a question around being a 447 00:22:11,161 --> 00:22:16,291 Mundanara Bayles: leader, right? You are quite senior in the business, in 448 00:22:16,291 --> 00:22:20,941 Mundanara Bayles: this big hierarchy. Who's been your mentor? Is there anyone 449 00:22:20,941 --> 00:22:24,571 Mundanara Bayles: in the business that's kind of supported you to be 450 00:22:24,571 --> 00:22:28,051 Mundanara Bayles: able to take on these leadership roles? 451 00:22:28,711 --> 00:22:33,541 Kylie Cummings: I've had numerous, and it's kind of about your people, 452 00:22:33,961 --> 00:22:38,941 Kylie Cummings: right? I've got amazing female support within the bank. I 453 00:22:40,621 --> 00:22:43,171 Kylie Cummings: was acting in a CIO role for about five, six 454 00:22:43,171 --> 00:22:46,291 Kylie Cummings: months while Paul was actually coming into the role, and I don't 455 00:22:46,591 --> 00:22:48,721 Kylie Cummings: think I would've put my hand up for that unless 456 00:22:48,721 --> 00:22:51,000 Kylie Cummings: I had quite a few of my female colleagues went, " 457 00:22:51,391 --> 00:22:52,171 Kylie Cummings: You need to put your hand up." 458 00:22:52,201 --> 00:22:52,202 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, you can this. 459 00:22:52,202 --> 00:22:55,051 Kylie Cummings: "You'd be great at it. You can do this." I'm like, " No, I can't." They're like, " 460 00:22:55,051 --> 00:22:58,231 Kylie Cummings: No, yes you can." So I did. I still remember 461 00:22:58,621 --> 00:23:01,141 Kylie Cummings: Gerard calling me up and asking me to fill in, 462 00:23:01,321 --> 00:23:06,091 Kylie Cummings: and Gerard's been a great support, Megan, his COO, great support. ANZ's got 463 00:23:06,091 --> 00:23:10,381 Kylie Cummings: some really great leaders who are really supportive. They want 464 00:23:10,381 --> 00:23:14,461 Kylie Cummings: to see you succeed. So I honestly feel very blessed. But 465 00:23:14,461 --> 00:23:18,841 Kylie Cummings: I will also say that I have an amazingly supportive husband- 466 00:23:18,901 --> 00:23:18,902 Mundanara Bayles: Of course. 467 00:23:18,902 --> 00:23:23,490 Kylie Cummings: ... who also tells me I can do anything. I 468 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:25,471 Kylie Cummings: think we've had this conversation before, but my dad used 469 00:23:25,471 --> 00:23:27,121 Kylie Cummings: to be a footy coach, so I always joked that 470 00:23:28,171 --> 00:23:31,861 Kylie Cummings: I wasn't brought up, I was coached up. So my 471 00:23:31,861 --> 00:23:34,801 Kylie Cummings: dad's always like, " The only person stopping you is you." 472 00:23:35,641 --> 00:23:37,831 Kylie Cummings: All these things get bounced around in my head, but 473 00:23:37,831 --> 00:23:41,461 Kylie Cummings: my dad's also an amazing support as well. But I've 474 00:23:41,461 --> 00:23:44,701 Kylie Cummings: been very lucky. I've got a very tight- knit family. 475 00:23:44,701 --> 00:23:48,000 Kylie Cummings: My middle brother's the same. My eldest brother's, even though 476 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,241 Kylie Cummings: he doesn't quite what I do for a living, it's very- 477 00:23:51,241 --> 00:23:53,551 Mundanara Bayles: You better know what she does, mate. She's a deadly woman. 478 00:23:53,911 --> 00:23:55,621 Kylie Cummings: Works in computers if you ask him. 479 00:23:56,401 --> 00:23:57,090 Mundanara Bayles: A bit more than that. 480 00:23:57,151 --> 00:24:00,451 Kylie Cummings: Yeah, just slightly. But yeah, no, I must admit I've 481 00:24:00,451 --> 00:24:04,321 Kylie Cummings: got... And my team. I've had probably a stressful year 482 00:24:04,321 --> 00:24:07,591 Kylie Cummings: around my health and my team have been amazing in 483 00:24:07,591 --> 00:24:10,111 Kylie Cummings: supporting me. When I'm not there, they get in, they 484 00:24:10,111 --> 00:24:13,740 Kylie Cummings: lean in. So I've got support everywhere. It's absolutely fantastic. So 485 00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:15,240 Kylie Cummings: I feel very blessed where I am. 486 00:24:16,021 --> 00:24:18,331 Mundanara Bayles: And that just leads into my last question, especially for 487 00:24:18,331 --> 00:24:23,551 Mundanara Bayles: some of our younger Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander women at ANZ. I know 488 00:24:23,551 --> 00:24:26,761 Mundanara Bayles: there's a few blackfellas working at ANZ. I want them 489 00:24:26,761 --> 00:24:29,311 Mundanara Bayles: to know that there are people like you in the business- 490 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:29,491 Kylie Cummings: Absolutely. 491 00:24:29,491 --> 00:24:32,671 Mundanara Bayles: ... that can support them or can have a coffee 492 00:24:32,671 --> 00:24:34,621 Mundanara Bayles: with them. So reach out. 493 00:24:34,621 --> 00:24:35,161 Kylie Cummings: Please do. 494 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,361 Mundanara Bayles: You're not alone, and sometimes it does feel quite isolating 495 00:24:39,391 --> 00:24:43,261 Mundanara Bayles: and overwhelming when you're trying to navigate these big structures. 496 00:24:43,321 --> 00:24:43,951 Kylie Cummings: Of course it does. 497 00:24:43,951 --> 00:24:48,091 Mundanara Bayles: Whether it's ANZ or working at Qantas or in the government, 498 00:24:48,750 --> 00:24:51,601 Mundanara Bayles: sometimes you do feel like you're alone when you don't 499 00:24:51,601 --> 00:24:52,681 Mundanara Bayles: find your people. 500 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:55,981 Kylie Cummings: And sometimes it's all it takes is a conversation. I 501 00:24:55,981 --> 00:24:58,951 Kylie Cummings: was literally having this conversation with someone else yesterday saying 502 00:24:59,431 --> 00:25:03,121 Kylie Cummings: what I learnt, and I wasn't always this way, and 503 00:25:03,121 --> 00:25:04,681 Kylie Cummings: I know people find this hard to believe, but in 504 00:25:04,681 --> 00:25:07,171 Kylie Cummings: my early twenties I was quite shy and now not 505 00:25:07,171 --> 00:25:09,601 Kylie Cummings: so much, but the thing that I figured out is 506 00:25:09,661 --> 00:25:12,240 Kylie Cummings: what's the worst thing that can happen. Ask for a 507 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,981 Kylie Cummings: coffee, ask for advice, seek guidance. 508 00:25:16,981 --> 00:25:19,921 Mundanara Bayles: That's what we need. That's what we need, just that reassurance. 509 00:25:20,161 --> 00:25:20,552 Kylie Cummings: And some direction- 510 00:25:20,552 --> 00:25:20,553 Mundanara Bayles: And direction. 511 00:25:20,553 --> 00:25:23,701 Kylie Cummings: ... from some people who have navigated it before. I 512 00:25:23,701 --> 00:25:27,240 Kylie Cummings: seek direction all the time. I'm constantly learning, and I'm 513 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,151 Kylie Cummings: really lucky I have people I can ask. Same goes. 514 00:25:31,231 --> 00:25:33,750 Kylie Cummings: Feel free to reach out. I'm more than happy to 515 00:25:33,781 --> 00:25:36,901 Kylie Cummings: support. I've got quite a few people that not necessarily 516 00:25:36,901 --> 00:25:38,581 Kylie Cummings: that I officially mentor, but just reach out and ask 517 00:25:38,581 --> 00:25:41,071 Kylie Cummings: for guidance around their career. Happy to do it because 518 00:25:41,071 --> 00:25:42,842 Kylie Cummings: I've been there, done it, got the T- shirt. 519 00:25:42,842 --> 00:25:46,740 Mundanara Bayles: I love this. She's earned her stripes too, and she might 520 00:25:46,740 --> 00:25:51,871 Mundanara Bayles: be able to pull a few strings. Maybe just go and have a 521 00:25:51,871 --> 00:25:54,271 Mundanara Bayles: coffee and build that relationship. I think that's what a 522 00:25:54,271 --> 00:25:56,250 Mundanara Bayles: lot of us just need is just knowing that we've 523 00:25:56,250 --> 00:25:59,581 Mundanara Bayles: got some people in our corner that we can trust 524 00:25:59,581 --> 00:26:02,851 Mundanara Bayles: and we can lean on when we're finding, even just 525 00:26:02,851 --> 00:26:05,371 Mundanara Bayles: times when we're dealing with Sorry Business or there might 526 00:26:05,371 --> 00:26:08,791 Mundanara Bayles: be some challenging things that are happening within our work 527 00:26:08,791 --> 00:26:11,041 Mundanara Bayles: life, or even if we're studying because some might be 528 00:26:11,041 --> 00:26:14,191 Mundanara Bayles: coming in as interns or trainees or grads. 529 00:26:14,581 --> 00:26:17,101 Kylie Cummings: It's always a juggle, and I constantly get asked this 530 00:26:17,101 --> 00:26:18,961 Kylie Cummings: because a lot of people know that I have two young kids. They're like, " 531 00:26:19,171 --> 00:26:21,211 Kylie Cummings: how do you do everything?" And I'm like, " Sometimes I 532 00:26:21,211 --> 00:26:25,351 Kylie Cummings: don't do everything well." But it's a juggle, right? It's 533 00:26:25,351 --> 00:26:28,291 Kylie Cummings: not impossible, and the thing that I encourage people to 534 00:26:28,291 --> 00:26:32,431 Kylie Cummings: do is take the leap. What's the worst thing that 535 00:26:32,431 --> 00:26:36,571 Kylie Cummings: can happen? And it's this whole thing of I think 536 00:26:36,571 --> 00:26:40,651 Kylie Cummings: a lot of, especially women and especially when at a 537 00:26:40,651 --> 00:26:44,041 Kylie Cummings: certain age, they feel like they have to choose between 538 00:26:44,041 --> 00:26:47,071 Kylie Cummings: their family and their career, you don't have to choose. 539 00:26:47,671 --> 00:26:48,182 Mundanara Bayles: You can do both. 540 00:26:48,182 --> 00:26:50,311 Kylie Cummings: You can do both. You just need to draw lines in the sand 541 00:26:50,521 --> 00:26:53,821 Kylie Cummings: which is more lines in... and actually, I got good advice 542 00:26:53,821 --> 00:26:59,641 Kylie Cummings: from Megan one day who said, " Kylie," she said, " I 543 00:26:59,641 --> 00:27:01,921 Kylie Cummings: came back from holidays and people had put in meetings 544 00:27:02,071 --> 00:27:04,621 Kylie Cummings: after five o'clock and I couldn't do them because I 545 00:27:04,711 --> 00:27:06,451 Kylie Cummings: drew a line in the sand." And then I kind 546 00:27:06,451 --> 00:27:08,071 Kylie Cummings: of went, " Well, if Megan can do it, I can do 547 00:27:08,071 --> 00:27:10,711 Kylie Cummings: it." So even I'm learning as we go, but it's 548 00:27:10,711 --> 00:27:13,081 Kylie Cummings: about having those conversations so you can learn from people 549 00:27:13,081 --> 00:27:13,831 Kylie Cummings: who've gone before you. 550 00:27:13,831 --> 00:27:16,531 Mundanara Bayles: There you go. And now you've heard it here on this 551 00:27:16,531 --> 00:27:20,912 Mundanara Bayles: podcast. Boundaries are really good, having those boundaries. 552 00:27:20,912 --> 00:27:21,842 Kylie Cummings: Boundaries. 553 00:27:22,111 --> 00:27:25,411 Mundanara Bayles: Yes, but also just not being afraid to speak up 554 00:27:25,411 --> 00:27:28,531 Mundanara Bayles: and say, " Actually, I've got this, or I am a 555 00:27:28,531 --> 00:27:31,261 Mundanara Bayles: young mum, or I am supporting and looking after my 556 00:27:31,261 --> 00:27:33,032 Mundanara Bayles: grandmother," like that relationship- 557 00:27:33,032 --> 00:27:33,033 Kylie Cummings: Everybody's human. 558 00:27:33,033 --> 00:27:35,551 Mundanara Bayles: But that relationship is so important. 559 00:27:35,551 --> 00:27:37,561 Kylie Cummings: It is, because you understand people and you know what 560 00:27:37,561 --> 00:27:38,611 Kylie Cummings: they're going through and you can support them. 561 00:27:38,611 --> 00:27:39,030 Mundanara Bayles: That's exactly it. 562 00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:41,461 Kylie Cummings: Because it's that whole thing of if people know you've 563 00:27:41,461 --> 00:27:43,981 Kylie Cummings: got their back, they absolutely work harder. 564 00:27:44,011 --> 00:27:44,490 Mundanara Bayles: Of course. 565 00:27:44,490 --> 00:27:48,750 Kylie Cummings: They're more dedicated, more loyal, you don't get turnover employees. 566 00:27:49,591 --> 00:27:55,891 Kylie Cummings: It's this whole thing of it actually becomes a proper 567 00:27:55,891 --> 00:28:00,481 Kylie Cummings: team. It's an actual team. You support each other. 568 00:28:00,511 --> 00:28:03,061 Mundanara Bayles: Yeah, your family, they're your second family. 569 00:28:03,061 --> 00:28:03,332 Kylie Cummings: Second family. 570 00:28:03,332 --> 00:28:03,601 Mundanara Bayles: Your mob. 571 00:28:03,601 --> 00:28:05,641 Kylie Cummings: Well, you spend a lot of time with them. 572 00:28:06,841 --> 00:28:09,000 Mundanara Bayles: I'm really pleased that I've been able to connect with 573 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,921 Mundanara Bayles: you and that this conversation is actually part of the 574 00:28:13,951 --> 00:28:17,371 Mundanara Bayles: Black Magic Woman ANZ Partnership series. So thank you so 575 00:28:17,371 --> 00:28:20,671 Mundanara Bayles: much for coming on the podcast and just sharing with 576 00:28:20,671 --> 00:28:22,951 Mundanara Bayles: all of us a little bit about who you are, 577 00:28:22,951 --> 00:28:25,651 Mundanara Bayles: your journey. I'm sure that there's a lot there for 578 00:28:25,651 --> 00:28:28,740 Mundanara Bayles: a lot of people, especially non- Aboriginal people as well, 579 00:28:29,161 --> 00:28:33,301 Mundanara Bayles: to also learn about some of the challenges for us 580 00:28:33,301 --> 00:28:35,731 Mundanara Bayles: as mob that are still trying to find our way, 581 00:28:36,421 --> 00:28:39,301 Mundanara Bayles: but at the same time still very proud to be Black 582 00:28:39,301 --> 00:28:40,261 Mundanara Bayles: and to be who we are. 583 00:28:40,951 --> 00:28:43,921 Kylie Cummings: And honestly, thank you so much for having me. I 584 00:28:43,981 --> 00:28:47,401 Kylie Cummings: have absolutely thoroughly enjoyed this conversation, as with our conversation 585 00:28:47,401 --> 00:28:47,612 Kylie Cummings: last night. 586 00:28:47,612 --> 00:28:49,051 Mundanara Bayles: To be continued. 587 00:28:49,111 --> 00:28:52,291 Kylie Cummings: And we will continue to have them. But if I 588 00:28:52,291 --> 00:28:54,061 Kylie Cummings: can say to everybody, if you haven't done the Black 589 00:28:54,061 --> 00:28:56,431 Kylie Cummings: Card training, please go do it. It's amazing. I just 590 00:28:56,431 --> 00:28:58,411 Kylie Cummings: encourage you to learn and lean in. 591 00:28:59,911 --> 00:29:00,481 Mundanara Bayles: Thank you. 592 00:29:00,631 --> 00:29:01,051 Kylie Cummings: No worries. 593 00:29:01,471 --> 00:29:05,071 Mundanara Bayles: Well, look, I hope you've enjoyed this deadly yarn. I told you it was going 594 00:29:05,071 --> 00:29:07,681 Mundanara Bayles: to be a deadly yarn. Can't wait to bring you 595 00:29:07,681 --> 00:29:10,801 Mundanara Bayles: the next episode. So until next time, bye for now. 596 00:29:12,301 --> 00:29:15,151 Intro: If you'd like to know more about how ANZ can help 597 00:29:15,151 --> 00:29:18,631 Intro: improve your financial well- being or help you start, run, 598 00:29:18,691 --> 00:29:24,781 Intro: or grow your business, visit ANZ. com or call 13 13 14. 599 00:29:26,671 --> 00:29:29,611 Mundanara Bayles: A big shout out to all you deadly mob and allies 600 00:29:29,611 --> 00:29:33,181 Mundanara Bayles: who continue to listen, watch, and support our podcast. Your 601 00:29:33,181 --> 00:29:36,451 Mundanara Bayles: feedback means the world. You can rate and review the 602 00:29:36,451 --> 00:29:39,571 Mundanara Bayles: podcast on Apple and Spotify, or even head to our 603 00:29:39,571 --> 00:29:42,721 Mundanara Bayles: socials and YouTube channel and drop us a line. We'd 604 00:29:42,721 --> 00:29:46,021 Mundanara Bayles: love to hear from you. The Black Magic Woman Podcast 605 00:29:46,021 --> 00:29:48,031 Mundanara Bayles: is produced by Clint Curtis.