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Speaker 1: Now the Northern Territory Ombudsman, as I mentioned earlier, has

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Speaker 1: recommended the government formerly bans spit hoods through legislation as

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Speaker 1: part of a major one hundred and forty page report

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Speaker 1: on the use of devices in police custody. Now the

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Speaker 1: report recommends that the Northern Territory Police extend the ban

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Speaker 1: on spit hoods to people of all ages, as well

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Speaker 1: as a recommendation prohibiting spit hoods and emergency restraint chairs

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Speaker 1: being used all together. So this report was tabled in

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Speaker 1: Parliament yesterday. It makes a number of recommendations on the

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Speaker 1: use of the chairs and also the spi hoods, and

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Speaker 1: it also includes that the police engage with experts to

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Speaker 1: develop alternative approaches to their therapies. Now this has fired

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Speaker 1: people up this morning, a lot of you messaging through

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Speaker 1: and saying well, if you don't spit you're not going

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Speaker 1: to need a spit hood. Joining me in the studio

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Speaker 1: is the president of the Northern Territory Police Association, Nathan Finn.

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Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Finny.

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Speaker 2: Good morning Katie, and good morning to your listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, Nathan, who can spit hoods currently be used on

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Speaker 1: by the police.

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Speaker 3: So currently they're used on adults obviously in custody facilities only.

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Speaker 3: That's the obviously policy decision that the police have gone with.

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Speaker 3: But this report that's obviously was tabled yesterday at Parliament,

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Speaker 3: we had no pro warning to that that there was

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Speaker 3: going to be tabled at parliament. Basically we get advice

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Speaker 3: after a table at Parliament that it's been tabled and

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Speaker 3: needs the recommendations from that. We had no consultation relation

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Speaker 3: to that. And firstly, NT Police don't use the spit hoods.

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Speaker 3: They use the spit guards and obviously are made from

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Speaker 3: a lightweight, transparent material and reinforce sction around the jaw

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Speaker 3: line we're spinning and biting. So the photo of the

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Speaker 3: omasman has used obviously in the front of the report

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Speaker 3: isn't even the product that the NT Police use.

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Speaker 1: So were the police consulted with it all throughout this report?

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Speaker 3: The police were consulted early in the days. We did

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Speaker 3: provide a submission to obviously the investor to the investigation. Again,

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Speaker 3: our position hasn't changed. The Spitgoucho made a protective option

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Speaker 3: for our members and make sure they're protecting our members.

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Speaker 1: Now tell me, I mean, why are they needed and

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Speaker 1: when are they usually used.

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Speaker 3: They're used in the circumstance where the person actually spits

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Speaker 3: or pretends to spit or goes to spit it our members,

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Speaker 3: and then they're placed on the person. This is this

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Speaker 3: policy restriction obviously of us is only to be used

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Speaker 3: in wat chairs. This occurs in the field as well,

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Speaker 3: and we want that option availble to our members as

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Speaker 3: well for the workouth and safety of them.

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Speaker 1: Anny, how often would you say that police are being

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Speaker 1: spat on?

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Speaker 3: Over my twenty years, I could obviously say I'd be

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Speaker 3: spat on probably twenty thirty times.

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Speaker 1: Are you serious?

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Speaker 2: I am serious?

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Speaker 3: And our members face this every day and then the

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Speaker 3: consequences of getting spat on and the three month wait

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Speaker 3: for blood tests and everything else for communicable diseases has

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Speaker 3: a real effect on our police.

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Speaker 1: Have you actually had to go through that process yourself.

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Speaker 3: I've been through that process a number of occasions, Catie,

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Speaker 3: and it's frustrating and it's yeah, it's downright wrong because

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Speaker 3: it affects you and your family.

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Speaker 1: You don't what can I ask, and you know, hopefully

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Speaker 1: I'm not getting too personal here, but what is it like?

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Speaker 1: What is it like when someone actually spits on you

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Speaker 1: while trying to.

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Speaker 3: Do just disgusting and it's vile. It's interfering with your

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Speaker 3: personal safety. And when they bite their tongue or bite

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Speaker 3: the inside of their mouth and spit the blood at you,

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Speaker 3: and it goes on your uniform and everyone else. How

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Speaker 3: can we protective equipment? We'd have to walk around and

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Speaker 3: jumpsuits to protect ourselves from this. It goes out of

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Speaker 3: our uniform, goes over our hands, over our arms, over

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Speaker 3: our throats. It's suitable for these people to be wearing

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Speaker 3: spit guards.

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Speaker 1: Is frustrating for you. Then when you sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: when you have like the Ombudsman, for example, saying that

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Speaker 1: spi hoods should be banned and releasing this report saying

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Speaker 1: that they should be banned, when when you know you

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Speaker 1: guys are out there on the front line and actually

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Speaker 1: dealing with the ramifications of it.

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Speaker 3: I invite the amasmen to come out and actually not

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Speaker 3: to get spot on himself, but to feel that the

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Speaker 3: consequences of what actually happens when that happens to you,

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Speaker 3: and the consequences and the procedure you just have to

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Speaker 3: go through. In the three months waiting for results to

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Speaker 3: come back, to see whether you've got a communical diseases

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Speaker 3: because of your workplace and what the issues you're dealing with. Again,

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Speaker 3: these people are choosing to spit at our members. They

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Speaker 3: are choosing to do this, and we should have the

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Speaker 3: option to protect ourselves. They are playing stupid games and

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Speaker 3: they're going to win stupid prizes every time.

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Speaker 1: So tell me. I mean, look, you know again you

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Speaker 1: just said that it takes like that three month period

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Speaker 1: for you. When that has happened, you literally you get

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Speaker 1: spat on. Then you've got to wait for three months

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Speaker 1: to find out whether you've actually contracted something.

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Speaker 3: That's right, Caddie. For the blood testing to be sent

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Speaker 3: away and to results to come back. It sometimes takes

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Speaker 3: up even longer than that.

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Speaker 1: What kind of invasion is that? Then in your personal life.

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Speaker 3: It's an invasion because again you don't want to go home,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to have a lesusly share these communical

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Speaker 3: diseases with your family members, with your kids. It places

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Speaker 3: you at great risk. Again, it's not acceptable, Katie, for

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Speaker 3: someone to sit in their glass tower up there and go,

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Speaker 3: let's just ban it, let's just legislate it.

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Speaker 2: It's wrong.

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Speaker 3: Our members deserve the protection and again we're pandering to

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Speaker 3: the offenders and not looking after the people are actually

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Speaker 3: trying to help.

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Speaker 1: Look, I feel, you know, I feel that plenty of

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Speaker 1: people in the community are going to agree with you

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Speaker 1: this morning. I think that the reality here is that

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Speaker 1: you talking about the use of those spit shields. I

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Speaker 1: believe that they're called from your perspective. Is that right, Yes, spitguards.

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Speaker 1: You know you're talking about the use of those when

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Speaker 1: people are actually, you know, doing the wrong thing. You

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Speaker 1: don't put them on everybody, do you.

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Speaker 2: No, definitely not, Katie.

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Speaker 3: There's a procedure in place where our members have to

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Speaker 3: go through and their strict obviously rigmarole in relation to

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Speaker 3: how we do that and the review of when we've

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Speaker 3: used it and when we haven't used it has obviously

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Speaker 3: gone through a process of management. It's all approved by

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Speaker 3: superintendent's watch commanders everything else. There's a process to be evolved.

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Speaker 3: We don't do it for everyone, okay, it's again for

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Speaker 3: protection of our members when they feel like they already

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Speaker 3: have been spat on, or they're going to get spat on,

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Speaker 3: or the person makes advances towards them that they are

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Speaker 3: going to actually do that.

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Speaker 1: Nathan I do want to move along because earlier this

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Speaker 1: week we learned a bit more detail of the government's

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Speaker 1: new knife crime strategy, but much like the review into

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Speaker 1: the bail legislation, many are wondering if the changes are

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Speaker 1: going to go far enough. Now, I want to just

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Speaker 1: play for you a little bit of the audio from

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Speaker 1: an interview that we did with the Attorney General Chancey

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Speaker 1: earlier in the week. Take a listen.

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Speaker 4: This is a crime prevention strategy, the knife strategy, and

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Speaker 4: absolutely enables us to work with our hard working police

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Speaker 4: and with our community around how we better respond to

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Speaker 4: situations in the wider community. So I am confident, Katie

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Speaker 4: that this strategy will absolutely go to addressing and delivering

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Speaker 4: in the areas of prevention. And this is not saying, Katie,

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Speaker 4: by any means that this is the be all and

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Speaker 4: end all. This is a piece of the wider puzzle

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Speaker 4: in responding to the community around how we can better

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Speaker 4: deliver community safety.

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Speaker 1: So that will see Attorney General Chancey Paike on the

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Speaker 1: show earlier in the week. Nathan, what was your reaction

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Speaker 1: to the knife crime strategy.

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Speaker 3: It's simply not a strategy, Katie, It's just a cop out.

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Speaker 3: It's a glossy brochure that the government can refer to.

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Speaker 3: It actually means nothing to our members. That means nothing

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Speaker 3: to the people out in the street that actually affected

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Speaker 3: by knife crime. And again, we weren't consulted about the

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Speaker 3: strategy at.

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Speaker 1: All, so you weren't consulted on it.

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Speaker 3: I had to go on to the Chief Minister's website

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Speaker 3: yesterday and get a copy of it because I haven't

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Speaker 3: received a copy of it. And so this is just

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Speaker 3: the consultation they keep claiming to have occurred with all

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Speaker 3: these lovely stakeholders. I think it's a crock of shit.

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Speaker 1: Now, I want to ask you that's and do you

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Speaker 1: know what? It's obviously very no, it's fine, very blunt.

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Speaker 1: Don'tmorrow you're okay to say that because I can hear frustration,

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Speaker 1: and I can hear that you know that the reality

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Speaker 1: here is that you guys, look it seems as though

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Speaker 1: you're feeling like you're having to to sort of clean

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Speaker 1: up after the fact.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, we feel like we're behind the eight ball. Everything

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Speaker 3: we do, Codie and getting advice from the senior Police

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Speaker 3: executive and consoling with the rank and file is totally different.

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Speaker 3: Aspects of this. They haven't obviously spoken to the members

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Speaker 3: on the ground that actually are seeing the increases obviously

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Speaker 3: in knife crime and the community and the fear in

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Speaker 3: the community from people being faced with this knife crime.

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Speaker 1: Is huge, Nathan. The government scene to help inform this

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Speaker 1: strategy and analysis of territory knife crime data was undertaken.

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Speaker 1: They reckon it showed that knives and edged weapons make

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Speaker 1: up only five five percent of violent crimes and any

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Speaker 1: strategy must focus on violent crimes holistically. Do you like,

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Speaker 1: does that five percent sit right with the Northern Territory,

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Speaker 1: like with the rank and file of the police, So.

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Speaker 2: Definitely not, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We've had advice obviously since that, since it's come out

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Speaker 3: and the information they've done, we questioned the statistics. Obviously

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Speaker 3: five percent of all violent offenses in a twelve month

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Speaker 3: period involve a NIVA edge weapon. We Actuid Deputy Commistry

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Speaker 3: yesterday to provide us with the data used for the

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Speaker 3: review and they told us the Attorney General's Department had

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Speaker 3: extract the data from the police system. Again, the information

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Speaker 3: hasn't come directly from police and provide that information. We

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Speaker 3: want to ensure the government isn't basically cherry picking what

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Speaker 3: they want to pick out of it, because we're getting

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Speaker 3: a lot different data from our members out in the

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Speaker 3: street that this actually is a huge issue for applots.

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Speaker 1: So you reckon that five percent troll?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Correct?

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Speaker 1: So can you just tell me with the data that

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Speaker 1: has been extracted? So it's been extracted from the Attorney

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Speaker 1: General's office, So what do they do like or from

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General's department? Do they go through? Correct me

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Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, it may have been upgrater, But do

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Speaker 1: they go through the promised system will go through the

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Speaker 1: system and search through the different types of crimes and

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Speaker 1: whether a knife's been used or not.

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Speaker 3: And again, yes, I assume that that would be the case. Again,

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Speaker 3: I don't know how they're gone and done about how

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Speaker 3: they got the results of this. But again, the members

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Speaker 3: that are getting back to us are showing that there's

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Speaker 3: a significant increase in the number of knives or edge

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Speaker 3: weapons being used on a daily basis, and it doesn't

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Speaker 3: represent five percent of their jobs.

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Speaker 2: Represents far more than that.

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Speaker 1: Now tell me. The government also well basically also said

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Speaker 1: that nearly half of all knife crime incidents and domestic

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Speaker 1: and family violence related. I've no doubt that there are

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Speaker 1: actually plenty that are domestic and family violence related. They

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Speaker 1: also said individuals sleeping rough carry knives for practical purposes

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Speaker 1: and protection with no intention of offending. What is your

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Speaker 1: reaction to some of that information.

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Speaker 2: Again, it's not surprising to us, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We were aware of obviously the people that do actually

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Speaker 3: carry knives and edge weapons, and they do most of

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Speaker 3: them do to use it for legitimate purposes. But again

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Speaker 3: it's the people that are actually using to commit violence offenses.

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Speaker 3: We need stronger punishment and legiacaty reform to make sure

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Speaker 3: there's a deterrent for people carrying knives and edge weapons.

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Speaker 1: So do you think that what the government's announced goes

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Speaker 1: far enough? I mean, they say that evidence has shot

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Speaker 1: that the evidence did not show a need for further

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Speaker 1: legislative amendments at this stage. But the strategy outlines a

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Speaker 1: range of short to medium term actions, including culturally appropriate

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Speaker 1: awareness and educational campaigns, including for schools, on the dangers

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Speaker 1: and consequences of carrying a knife, an alternative strategy to

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Speaker 1: ensure people sleeping rough feel safe without the need to

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Speaker 1: carry a knife, working with industry to develop a uniform

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Speaker 1: practice for the security of knives, to prevent theft as

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Speaker 1: well as safety and de escalation training for retail and

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Speaker 1: hospitality workers. And then the development of an anti police

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Speaker 1: led action plan to enhance the detection and prevention of

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Speaker 1: knife crime in public places and development of a trauma

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Speaker 1: and injury informed harm reduction framework.

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Speaker 2: Let's be honest here, Katie.

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Speaker 3: We have trouble educating these types of people in the community,

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Speaker 3: even education, a standard education of English and maths. How

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Speaker 3: we're going to educate these people with knives or edge

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Speaker 3: weapon reforms? Seriously, come on, guys.

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Speaker 1: Now, what about the development of the nt police led

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Speaker 1: action plan to enhance the detection and prevention of knife crime?

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Speaker 3: Again, they've put it over to police to resolve all

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Speaker 3: the issues. They've put it to the transfer of the

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Speaker 3: Anti Social Behavior Unit obviously to the Territory Community Community

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Speaker 3: Safety Coordination Center, and they're asking them to develop these

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Speaker 3: plans going forward. Again, we haven't been consoled in relation

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Speaker 3: to those plans. Again, we asks for our members to

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Speaker 3: be consulted about what they want to see and how

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Speaker 3: they think they can change in the community.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nathan Finn, it certainly sounds as though you guys

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Speaker 1: are pretty fired up. As I said again, the government

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Speaker 1: reckons that there's no evidence or the evidence did not

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Speaker 1: need or did not show a need for further legislative

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Speaker 1: amendments this stage. Is that in line with your expectations

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Speaker 1: with the rank and files expectations.

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Speaker 3: Definitely not, Katie, definitely not. I spoke to this at

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Speaker 3: the conference recently. They haven't gone far enough and we've

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Speaker 3: told them they haven't gone far enough. They haven't come

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Speaker 3: back to us with any compensation or any movement in

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Speaker 3: the relation.

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Speaker 2: To what they're thinking. We've told them clearly.

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Speaker 3: We've told them clearly and from our members point of view,

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Speaker 3: they have not done enough and they know they haven't

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Speaker 3: done enough well.

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Speaker 1: Nathan Finn, the president of the Northern Territory Police Association,

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Speaker 1: always appreciate your time. Thanks very much for speaking with

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Speaker 1: us today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, appreciate if we've got a quick couple of seconds.

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Speaker 3: We've had some issues obviously in Allie Springs over the

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Speaker 3: last few days as well, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you know where about it.

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Speaker 3: We've had a number of police cars smashed up and

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Speaker 3: a number of our members assaulted from rocks being thrown

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Speaker 3: through windscreens, et cetera. When they're traveling at eighty kloms

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Speaker 3: an hour. Our members are suffering down there, and members

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Speaker 3: are actually struggling to deal with the crime that's obviously

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Speaker 3: going on there. There's been no reports out in the media,

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Speaker 3: there's been nothing said. We've got members out there who

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Speaker 3: have been hurt, are struggling to do their job again

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Speaker 3: through community upprest in Alice Springs, and you hear nothing

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Speaker 3: about it.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea that that had happened.

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Speaker 3: No, definitely not. And when fifteen to twenty people surround

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Speaker 3: two members and assault them with frying pans and throw

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Speaker 3: rocks at them and throw rocks through the police vehicles,

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Speaker 3: I'm deeply concerned that.

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Speaker 1: When did that happen?

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Speaker 3: That happened over the last three days, ago, two days

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Speaker 3: and over two nights.

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Speaker 1: In Alice Spring Are those officers okay?

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Speaker 3: Those officer are okay? Had members of our association contact

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Speaker 3: them again? Some injuries received because of that, and obviously

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Speaker 3: glass yards that go into their skin and obviously count

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Speaker 3: them again, rocks run at police cars, smash windows, members

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Speaker 3: struck in the arm with rocks, et cetera. It's not

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Speaker 3: acceptable behavior.

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Speaker 1: So, Nathan, how many officers have been assaulted in Alice

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Speaker 1: Springs over the last few days.

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Speaker 3: That was four members have been involved in that. Two

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Speaker 3: one of the indigenous town camps in Elae Springs and

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Speaker 3: then one obviously near that as well.

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Speaker 1: So have the people who who assaulted those offices been apprehended.

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Speaker 3: A couple of those people have been out, I'm informed, Katie. Again,

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Speaker 3: it shows the behavior and obviously the actions of these

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Speaker 3: people are the public towards our police officers. We know

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Speaker 3: we're under resource, we haven't got the resource to do it.

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Speaker 3: So when two members are left there by themselves with

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Speaker 3: no backup, this is what's going to happen. And this

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Speaker 3: is what's continue to happen until they actually resource their

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Speaker 3: police force properly.

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Speaker 1: Are you worried about their safety?

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Speaker 3: And Alice, I'm worried about their safety every day and

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Speaker 3: every officer across the Northern Territory, Caddy, and that's why

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Speaker 3: I'm so passionate.

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Speaker 2: About what I do.

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Speaker 3: I find it offensive that they continually still argue that

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Speaker 3: we've got enough, we can do enough. The facts are

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Speaker 3: out there, Katie. The facts are clear as anything. We

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Speaker 3: haven't got enough resource to respond to the incidence of

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Speaker 3: data and the community feels that as well, because they

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Speaker 3: know we're not getting to their jobs. We know that

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Speaker 3: when they need the time of need, when they need police,

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Speaker 3: they're not having us, and that's disappointing for all our members.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nathan Finn, I really appreciate your time. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for making us aware of that. We weren't aware, and

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Speaker 1: so I appreciate that because I think that the community

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Speaker 1: needs to know what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, and we do and we will always be there.

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Speaker 3: We'll always speak honestly on behalf of our members and

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Speaker 3: we will never shy away from that. But thank you

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Speaker 3: to all the men and women obviously in air blue

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Speaker 3: uniforms that keep the territory safe ever you day

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Speaker 1: Thank you, thanks so much for your time this morning,