1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Calcotin woman from Gadighal country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: Good morning, and welcome to the Daily os. It's Thursday, 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: the thirteenth of October. I'm Zara, I'm Sam. Now the 9 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 2: government will officially close the cases of nearly two hundred 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 2: thousand people caught up in the controversial Robodeck collection scheme, 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 2: which wrongfully collected one point seven billion dollars from welfare recipients. 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 2: We're going to get into how that happened in today's 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: deep dive. But first Sam, what is making news today? 14 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 3: We'll go straight to federal politics first and Prime Minister 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 3: Anthony our Benizi is considering a request from Ukrainian President 16 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 3: Vladimir Zelensky to train his country's troops to fight against 17 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: Russian forces. Zelenski said he called for Australia to strengthen 18 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: its security assistance during a quote fruitful conversation with Albernizi, 19 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 3: who also pledged an ongoing commitment with Ukraine. 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 2: The New South Wales government has introduced legislation that would 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: make coerce of control a standalone criminal offense. The bill 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: was introduced to Parliament yesterday by New South Wales Attorney 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 2: General Mark Speakman, who said it reflected quote a careful, 24 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: cautious and measured approach. 25 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 3: Tennis Australia CEO Craig Tiley has said that Russian and 26 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 3: Belarusian players at the upcoming Australian Open won't be allowed 27 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 3: to play under their country's flags, while leaving their eligibility 28 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 3: for unvaccinated tennis star Novak Djokovich to the federal government. 29 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 3: Djokovic was deported from Australia earlier this year due to 30 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: his COVID nineteen vaccination status, with the government set to 31 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: make the final call for his participation at next year's 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 3: Grand Slam. 33 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: And finally some good news, renewable energy sources covered the 34 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: entirety of Greece's electricity system for the first time in history. 35 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,119 Speaker 2: Last week, all of Greece's power generation was from renewables 36 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 2: for at least five hours on Friday, and comes as 37 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 2: the country pushes back on the decarbonization plans in the 38 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: wake of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. 39 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 3: Two hundred thousand outstanding robodebt cases will be dumped and 40 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: debts wiped as the Third Government has early this morning 41 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: announced the Royal Commission into the controversial Robodet scheme. It 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: was an unlawful debt raising scheme against nearly half a 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 3: million vulnerable Australians, a human tragedy with very real consequences 44 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 3: for its victims. 45 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: Alrighty, So for today's deep dive, we're talking about the 46 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 2: infamous robodebt scheme. You might have heard us talk about 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 2: it on this podcast before. We have certainly written about 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 2: it a fair bit. The Robodet scheme is the government 49 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: program that ran from twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen and 50 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: issued billions of dollars worth of incorrect debt collection notices 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: to welfare recipients. So Sam, this week it's back in 52 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: the headlines and we're going to come to why that 53 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,680 Speaker 2: is in a moment. But can you start by reminding 54 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: us what was Robodet. 55 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: So, as you say there, Zara, Robodet was a debt 56 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 3: collection program run by the Department of Human Services. That's 57 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: the department responsible for welfare payments, and it routinely has 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: oversight to make sure that people aren't claiming welfare benefits 59 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,079 Speaker 3: that they're not entitled to. And one thing they consider 60 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: when figuring out how much welfare to give you is 61 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 3: whether you've reported your income correctly, because welfare payments are 62 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: limited to people on low incomes. So if we go 63 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 3: back to the nineteen nineties, the department started to check 64 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: the income people reported to them with the income data 65 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: collected by the Australian Taxation Office the ATO, to check 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 3: for any mismatches, and in twenty sixteen that process was automated, 67 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: and that's the robobit in robodebt, Basically, a computer algorithm 68 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: would check for a mismatch and then automatically issue a 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 3: debt collection notice with no human oversight. So people would 70 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: receive an email saying you've been overpaid, please pay back 71 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 3: this amount, and sometimes this amount was stretching back years, 72 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 3: and the burden was on them to provide evidence if 73 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 3: they felt there was a mistake. 74 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: All right, so the big thing here is that there 75 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: was a mistake. It wasn't a small mistake either. Nearly 76 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 2: two billion dollars worth of mistakes were made by this 77 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: computer algorithm. How did it go so wrong? 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: I think if you boil it down, it's because it 79 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 3: wasn't comparing like with like. So welfare payments get paid 80 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 3: fortnightly and they're based on your income for that fortnight 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 3: and ato data on your income is yearly. The computer 82 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 3: would then compute an average and basically divide that yearly 83 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 3: income into fortnites. But we know that that's not always 84 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 3: going to be right. You think about welfare recipients, many 85 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 3: of them are in and out of paid work. Their 86 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: incomes fluctuate from fortnite to fortnite. That's why human oversight 87 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 3: had been an important part of the process, and it's 88 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: a big part of why so many of the robo 89 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 3: collection notices were wrong. 90 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 2: We'll be back in just a moment, but first a 91 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 2: message from our sponsor. Okay, So, now we're ready to 92 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: turn to the news and the reason why we're talking 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 2: about it today. What's happened this week with robodet So. 94 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: This week one of the loose ends of this program, 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: one of the last loose ends tied up. So the 96 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 3: program ended in twenty nineteen. The government apologized in twenty 97 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 3: twenty and that was the coalition government, yep. And in 98 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one it agreed to a one point two 99 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: billion dollar court settlement after a number of robodet victims 100 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 3: collectively sued the government in a class action. So, like 101 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 3: he pointed out, Zarah, that was all under the previous 102 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 3: coalition government. And this week the Labor government announced it 103 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 3: would basically close off the cases of about two hundred 104 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 3: thousand people who had been issued debt collection notices and 105 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 3: wipe any record of them from the system. 106 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: So we've covered what exactly the robodet scheme was and 107 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 2: while we're talking about it today, but now I want 108 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: to move to the Royal Commission that was set up 109 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: to actually investigate this robodet scheme. 110 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, so the new government set up a Royal Commission, 111 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 3: an independent investigation to answer some really big questions, and 112 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 3: I think the biggest one is why did this happen? 113 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: But then there's also the question of how did the 114 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 3: government and the Department of Human Services respond when people 115 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 3: started complaining? And then the further question, which is a 116 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 3: bit of a longitudinal question of what has been the 117 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: impact on people now. Of course, in many of these cases, 118 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 3: these welfare collection notices took people by shock, often people 119 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 3: in a very vulnerable financial situation and we know now 120 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 3: that they were issued this incorrect debt collection notice and 121 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: that can be very traumatic. So victims now will have 122 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: a chance to tell their stories through this Royal Commission. Yeah, 123 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: the Royal Commissions tend to make recommendations about how to 124 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 3: avoid problems like this in the future, so we can 125 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 3: expect to see that when the Royal Commission concludes its 126 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 3: work next year. 127 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 2: There's no overstating the she impact that the robodette scheme 128 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: had on people's lives. It has led to a multitude 129 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 2: of problems for many, many people, and it's something that 130 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 2: will not be soon forgotten. Thank you for joining us 131 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 2: on the Daily OZ. If you learned something from today's episode, 132 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: don't forget to hit subscribes so there's a TDA episode 133 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: waiting for you every weekday morning. Have a great day 134 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 2: and we will be back again tomorrow.