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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now children are eating. It's one of those things. I

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Speaker 1: got a kid who she just eats yellow and white food.

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Speaker 1: That's literally all she eats. It drives me up the wall.

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Speaker 1: Fussy eating. I've got another one. I don't think she's

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Speaker 1: a fussy eater, and my wife thinks that she's impossible

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Speaker 1: to feed. And the whole thing about fussy eating is

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Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a fussy eater, but I know

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Speaker 1: when I go to other people's houses or when i'm

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Speaker 1: I don't know, when I open up my parents' fridge

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Speaker 1: and I'm kind of like, yeah, there's nothing there. And

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Speaker 1: I've got this idea that we don't think we're fussy

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Speaker 1: eaters until somebody else is feeding us, and then we

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Speaker 1: discover that we're quite fussy. Karna Savage is a pediatric

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Speaker 1: dietitian twenty three years doing pediatric dietetics, in other words,

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Speaker 1: looking after food health nutrition for kids. Lives in Sydney

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Speaker 1: with her husband and two kids, and the founder of

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Speaker 1: Nourishing Kids, where she helps parents create healthy eaters in

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Speaker 1: a stress free way. I need a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of Karina Savage in my life. Actually, Karina, is it

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Speaker 1: Karina Savage or Karna Savage? Every time I see Karina

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Speaker 1: Savage time, every time I see the surname Savage, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you've got to make it friends, You've got to be savage.

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Speaker 2: Oh we could, we we can do that for today.

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Speaker 1: Karna is also a regular on National Warning TV on

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Speaker 1: Sunrise on seven and has her own podcast called The

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Speaker 1: Easy Feed. You should check it out. Karina, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about kids and fussy eating. First off, what do you

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Speaker 1: think about my take on everyone's fussy. It's just that

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Speaker 1: when we feed ourselves, we don't know where fussy? Am

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Speaker 1: I right? Or am I wrong? Like? Are we too

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Speaker 1: hard on the kids?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think we can be too hard on the kids,

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Speaker 3: especially you know, they're still learning to like food, that

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Speaker 3: they're developing. I think we've got this whole idea that

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Speaker 3: our kids are fussy, but really they're just learning about

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Speaker 3: life in general. Right, So, I mean, there are some

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Speaker 3: super fussy eaters, there are adults that are super fuzzy eater.

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Speaker 3: But sometimes I think we're too hard on ourselves and

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Speaker 3: our kids, and we really need to take a step

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Speaker 3: back and look at the big picture.

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Speaker 1: I always say I'm not a fussy eater. I just

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Speaker 1: like a certain quality or standard of food, and my

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Speaker 1: wife just rolls her eyes at me and says, that

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Speaker 1: makes you fussy. Anyway, let's dive into a couple of

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Speaker 1: questions about kids and their food.

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Speaker 2: Now, let me ask you.

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Speaker 1: It's a dietitian, what's your favorite food?

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Speaker 3: Well, I grew up with my mum's sides Italian, and

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Speaker 3: I absolutely love Nyoki and I feel very blessed to

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Speaker 3: have learned mine as Yoki recipe and something that I

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Speaker 3: now cook with my children's. I love Yoki, But then

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Speaker 3: I also have to be honest.

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Speaker 2: Hot chips with chicken.

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Speaker 1: And there's gotta be almost non nutritional value in a

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Speaker 1: bag of.

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Speaker 2: Chips, right, But do they're good? Oh?

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Speaker 1: My goodness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So my favorite food is KFC is. Yeah, but I've

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Speaker 1: sworn off and i haven't had it all year, and

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Speaker 1: I'm really feeling good about the fact that it's gone.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, feeling good.

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Speaker 2: I've got a kid who, as I.

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Speaker 1: Mentioned, yellow and white foods, and because I do try

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Speaker 1: to stay with the nutritious stuff, it kind of it's

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Speaker 1: doing my head in Here's what I want to ask you.

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Speaker 1: When you I mean twenty three years dealing with parents

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Speaker 1: and kids and feeding. What are some of the most

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Speaker 1: common challenges that parents face when it comes to feeding

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Speaker 1: their kids. Is it that I've just got this kid

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Speaker 1: that only eats white rice or cheese or pasta, or

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Speaker 1: is there something else going on that parents come to

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Speaker 1: you a lot about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, definitely, the white diet, the beige dart, the

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Speaker 3: fussy eaters drives parents nuts.

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Speaker 2: And look, I think that's a symptom of many things.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a symptom of our busy lives.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a symptom of parents not necessarily taking

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Speaker 3: that step back and looking at a couple of key

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Speaker 3: strategies that will actually.

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Speaker 2: Get some runs on the board, get their children eating better.

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Speaker 3: I think we are too hard on ourselves sometimes, But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, it's about just taking that step back,

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Speaker 3: looking at how we can eat together.

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Speaker 2: How we can roll with all of these healthy eating behaviors.

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Speaker 3: So I think fussy eater is definitely one of the

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Speaker 3: biggest challenges parents' face. But then time time is a

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Speaker 3: real challenge. These days, more parents are working, both parents

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Speaker 3: are working, you know, it's not necessarily that mum's home cooking,

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Speaker 3: mum's working as well. How do we get good, easy,

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Speaker 3: healthy food on the table consistently.

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Speaker 2: I think that's a real challenge for parents. Social media

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Speaker 2: is another one.

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Speaker 3: You know, you see all these instagrammable lunch boxes, and

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Speaker 3: it makes us as parents feel bad that our child

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Speaker 3: doesn't have an Instagram or luge box. But really that's

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Speaker 3: not necessarily the norm, so I think that's a challenge

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Speaker 3: as well.

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Speaker 2: Cost of living is another one.

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Speaker 3: You know, fresh healthy food can sometimes cost more than

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Speaker 3: the junk foods, So that's another fact.

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Speaker 1: I've got a hypothesis here on this. By you, I

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Speaker 1: get the whole time poor thing. And I also think

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Speaker 1: as much as shows like Master Chef have highlighted that

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Speaker 1: there are some few among us who can cook very

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Speaker 1: very well, for me, I just become dispirited. I'm like, oh, gosh,

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Speaker 1: I can't cook that. I don't have the time, I

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Speaker 1: don't have the capacity, I don't have the skill. When

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Speaker 1: you combine that with what I'm just going to call

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Speaker 1: the big food industrial complex, I feel as though the

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Speaker 1: entire Western world has designed this this industrial complex around

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Speaker 1: food to literally, I don't know, to feed itself rather

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Speaker 1: than to feed us. I don't want to sound all

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists here, but surely these great, big monolithic food

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Speaker 1: giants have got a lot to answer for.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's a it's a real problem because

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Speaker 3: they're so convenient, they're so easy. They've been formulated using

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Speaker 3: millions of dollars to hit all the senses, so our

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Speaker 3: kids love them.

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Speaker 2: They're home fat and salt and sugar.

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Speaker 3: They're easy, so you know, time for parents will sometimes

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Speaker 3: just grab them, and it's about I mean, this is

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Speaker 3: where I try and come in and say, look, here's

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Speaker 3: some quick, healthy, easy recipes to get on the table.

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Speaker 3: Don't feel bad about baked beans on toast, don't feel

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Speaker 3: bad about eggs on toast.

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Speaker 2: Drive past McDonald's.

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Speaker 3: A KFC, you know, just you know, crack open some

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Speaker 3: tin vegetables or even frozen veggies.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a real issue, and I find kids

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Speaker 2: snacks too, is a real concern.

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Speaker 3: I'm often you know, some of my latest segments on

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Speaker 3: TV have been about the way that food is produced

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Speaker 3: these days and the ingredients that goes into foods these days.

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Speaker 3: It's so different to twenty years ago, and the additives

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Speaker 3: and the preserved is and the sugar and look, we

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Speaker 3: don't even have good standards in Australia for what goes

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Speaker 3: into our baby and toddle of food, in our kids food,

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Speaker 3: it's a nightmare.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, I agree with you.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's making them money, but it's not

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Speaker 3: necessarily doing the right thing for our children or for us.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to Corona Savage, Karna runs Nourishing Kids, been

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Speaker 1: a pediatric dietitian for twenty three years. Karina, let me

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Speaker 1: pick your up on something you just said. You said,

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Speaker 1: go past the fast food joint because if you eat

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Speaker 1: a tenni spaghetti on toast or a ten of baked

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Speaker 1: beans on toast when you get home, Am I hearing

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Speaker 1: you right? That that's to be better few kids?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? At tinner baked beans? Not necessarily?

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Speaker 3: Oh right, Okay, absolutely, there's you know, quick and easy

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Speaker 3: food that you can make at home that's going to

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Speaker 3: be probably cheaper and you shouldn't feel guilty about it

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Speaker 3: because there's actually going to nourish them so much more

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Speaker 3: than stopping off and getting the fast food. You know,

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Speaker 3: look in the fridge, pull pull out literally a cara

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Speaker 3: cucumber and caps can chop it up and pop bobbit

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Speaker 3: next to some make beans on toast, and that's a

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Speaker 3: very nutritious dinner and parents shouldn't feel guilty about that.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's a really good, quick, easy meal

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Speaker 3: to incorporate into your weekly menu.

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Speaker 1: We have we have two nights a week in our

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Speaker 1: food diary that are kind of like that. One of

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Speaker 1: them is called whatever Wednesday. So we have that. We

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Speaker 1: have no meat Monday, and we have Tyco Tuesday, which

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Speaker 1: which is really just Mexican. It'll be any number of

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Speaker 1: different Mexican dishes. And by Wednesday, we can't like, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 1: like just what's in the fridge? What can we make?

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Speaker 1: And it literally it might be it might be some eggs,

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Speaker 1: it might be some baked beans. Really really low key

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Speaker 1: whatever Wednesday. And we also when Kylie and I go

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Speaker 1: out on date night, we just say the kids that

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Speaker 1: say yo yo night. Yo yo night means you're on

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Speaker 1: your own. And so again the kids are literally just

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Speaker 1: they've got to figure it out. They're on their own.

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Speaker 1: We're teaching them culinary skills. Apparently, when I'm thinking about

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Speaker 1: this big food industrial complex and the time poor issues

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Speaker 1: and everything that you've said, I'm reminded of a book,

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite books. It's by a guy called

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Speaker 1: Michael Pollen. It's called Food Rules, and in that book,

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Speaker 1: it's just a whole lot of dietary rules, really simple

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Speaker 1: to read, like you can read the whole book in

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Speaker 1: an hour hour and a half. And two of them

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Speaker 1: have jumped out at me as i'm listening to what

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Speaker 1: you're describing. Number one, when you do your grocery shopping

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Speaker 1: shop the periphery of the supermarket. What he's basically saying

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Speaker 1: is if you go up and down the aisles, that's

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Speaker 1: what all the process stuff is. That's where all the

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Speaker 1: stuff is that doesn't have real food in it. That's

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Speaker 1: all the additives, all the chemicals, all the stuff that's

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Speaker 1: been processed and manufactured. If it's manufactured, it's probably not food.

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Speaker 1: Whereas if you do the periphery, you've got your fruit

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Speaker 1: and your veggies, you've got your milk, and your dairy

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Speaker 1: and your meat. Eat all that stuff's around the periphery

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Speaker 1: of the supermarket. That's a rule that's really stuck with me,

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Speaker 1: and I love that one. The other one that he

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Speaker 1: talks about again tying in with everything you've just said,

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Speaker 1: is this idea that you should really only eat food

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Speaker 1: that your grandma or maybe in twenty twenty four, that

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Speaker 1: your great grandma would recognize as food. So if you

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Speaker 1: serve it up on the plate and she's like, what's this,

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Speaker 1: you'd be like, Okay, this isn't food that my great

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Speaker 1: grandmother would recognize. Therefore maybe it's not food at all.

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Speaker 1: What's your take on that and how does that work

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Speaker 1: in a family?

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Speaker 2: Look, I love that.

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Speaker 3: I love both of those and I think you know,

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Speaker 3: a lot of what I talk about inside and Russian

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Speaker 3: Kids is just trying to strip it back, getting it

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Speaker 3: back to basics.

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Speaker 2: And I absolutely agree.

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Speaker 3: If you don't know what that ingredient is, or your

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Speaker 3: grandma wouldn't know what that ingredient is, just leave it

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Speaker 3: on the shelf.

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Speaker 2: It's about trying to.

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Speaker 3: Not feel like you have to fill your kids lunchboxes

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Speaker 3: with all this package stuff just because that's what their

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Speaker 3: friends are having, or serve up.

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Speaker 2: The you know, the dunk dinner because that's all they're

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Speaker 2: going to eat.

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Speaker 3: Is about trying to strip it back and go, look,

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Speaker 3: let's eat together, Let's just put decent food on the table.

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Speaker 3: Fussy eaters do still need what I call some safe foods,

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Speaker 3: and that's where we go into those strategies about incorporating

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Speaker 3: the foods that they are enjoying and then put some

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Speaker 3: of the foods that their learnings like on the plate,

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Speaker 3: but absolutely trying to strip it back to basic food.

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Speaker 3: I always encourage people to look for shorter ingredients lists,

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Speaker 3: less additives and preservatives, and trying to keep it as

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Speaker 3: simple as possible, because it's so easy now just to

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Speaker 3: grab things that our kids like, but they're not good

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Speaker 3: for them. And it's almost become a norm because everyone's

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Speaker 3: doing it, and that's a concern because it's definitely getting

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Speaker 3: out of control and we don't have that, as I said,

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Speaker 3: enough regulations.

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Speaker 2: At protecting our children.

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Speaker 3: So really trying to strip it back yet, shop the periphery,

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Speaker 3: hit the ingredients list as small as possible, trying to

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Speaker 3: buy fresh or as close to nature as possible. I say,

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Speaker 3: you know, if it hasn't come out of the ground

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Speaker 3: or off a tree, then it's probably quite highly processed.

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Speaker 3: And that's when we start to get into trouble because

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Speaker 3: over the weeks and the months and the years, all

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Speaker 3: that processed food is really changing our gut health and

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Speaker 3: our gut health is the center of our universe from

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Speaker 3: a health perspective.

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Speaker 1: So Karina, two questions on this. First off, it feels

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Speaker 1: like everyone knows the stuff that you're saying, but because

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Speaker 1: of the reasons we've discussed, I mean, we're really fighting

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Speaker 1: against psychology, We're fighting against marketing giants, we're fighting against

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Speaker 1: this big food industrial complex, we're fighting against physiology because

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Speaker 1: we're so drawn and our kids are so drawn to

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Speaker 1: these less healthy foods. You've talked about gut health and

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Speaker 1: going to come back to that in just a sec

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Speaker 1: but maybe just a simpler question first, As a dad

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Speaker 1: who's got this kid who is kind of painful around food,

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Speaker 1: we put food on her plate that she likes, and

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Speaker 1: we try to introduce new foods and come up against

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Speaker 1: all kinds of resistance pretty consistently. What are the biggest

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Speaker 1: misconceptions that parents have about getting their kids to eat

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Speaker 1: healthy stuff.

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Speaker 3: I think the first misconception is if their child doesn't

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Speaker 3: eat it, A lot of people fulfill it's their own fault,

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Speaker 3: it's the parent's fault. And I talk a lot in

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Speaker 3: Nussan Kids about the fact that it's not necessarily the

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Speaker 3: parent's fault.

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Speaker 2: It's the child still learning to like food. Now. Absolutely

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Speaker 2: there's things that parents can.

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Speaker 3: Do to increase familiarity and trust in food over time,

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Speaker 3: but it's certainly not the parent's fault because it is

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Speaker 3: very normal for children to refuse foods. It is very

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Speaker 3: normal for children to take time. I call it continuum

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Speaker 3: of learning to like a food, from complete food refusal

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Speaker 3: right to the other end where they are loving the food.

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Speaker 2: But there's lots of little.

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Speaker 3: Micro jumps along that journey, and often we don't recognize

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Speaker 3: if a kid's picking it up, squishing it in their hands,

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Speaker 3: picking it up, licking it, chewing it, spitting.

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Speaker 2: Out again, that can actually be progressed.

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Speaker 3: We don't necessarily acknowledge that as progress moving along that

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Speaker 3: continuum to eventually accepting the food. So I think not

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Speaker 3: recognizing those small winds can be an issue because you think, oh,

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Speaker 3: they've just refused it again, they're never going to eat it.

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Speaker 3: So our own mindset and our own energy at the

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Speaker 3: table can play a big role. Sponges and they absorb

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Speaker 3: everything from us. So if we're only negative, if we

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Speaker 3: talk about them being a fussy eater to our friends,

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Speaker 3: then our external words become their internal words. They then think, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm a fussy eat and that reinforces it. I think

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Speaker 3: making sure that when we're serving up food it's tasty's

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Speaker 3: we keep mial times fun and like we roll model

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Speaker 3: those healthy eating behaviors ourselves, because sometimes when I'll speak

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Speaker 3: to families and the child's fussy, you know, halfway through

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Speaker 3: the console, it'll be like, oh and oh yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: exactly the same.

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Speaker 2: Sorry.

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Speaker 3: So it's about role modeling those healthy eating behaviors right

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Speaker 3: from the get go, because children tend to learn to

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Speaker 3: like foods that are familiar to the family, and if

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Speaker 3: they're having family meal times where they see the rest

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Speaker 3: of their family eating and enjoying food, then eventually they

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Speaker 3: will learn to like that. Well most of them time,

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Speaker 3: they will learn to like those foods themselves. So there's

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Speaker 3: lots of I call it a feeding ecosystem. There's lots

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Speaker 3: of little factors which will influence at child's willingness to

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Speaker 3: eat a food. But it's about trying to get some

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Speaker 3: of those fundamentals right and then they will eventually get there.

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Speaker 1: Listening to what you're saying, Krener, I'm thinking when I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, I don't think that I was fussy

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Speaker 1: but there's heap of food that I wouldn't eat that

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Speaker 1: I absolutely love now exactly. So I'm looking at my

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Speaker 1: kids and I'm thinking, with a couple of them, in particularly,

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Speaker 1: why can't you eat this avocado? Like avocado is so good?

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Speaker 1: And when we make it into this salsa with the

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Speaker 1: corn and the cherry tomatoes and we put it with

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Speaker 1: poached eggs like heaven, and they don't even like poached eggs.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what is the matter with you? Why do

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Speaker 1: you only eat scrambled or fried? And yet as you

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Speaker 1: get older you do kind of expand. So I guess

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Speaker 1: there's some hope there for any parent who's saying, yeah,

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Speaker 1: my child has these fussy eating habits, or my child

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Speaker 1: has some sensory issues. We're just not making progress over time.

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Speaker 1: As they get older, they usually will.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 3: And actually on that sorry, it's understanding why they're fussy

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Speaker 3: in the first place is a really key factor, because

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Speaker 3: you see these things on Instagram about, you know, just

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Speaker 3: make a funny face on the plate. But if they've

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Speaker 3: got sent three issues, it's not necessarily going to fix it.

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Speaker 3: So I talk lot about why I've got a fuss

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Speaker 3: eating program that sits inside Nurishing Kids and we go

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Speaker 3: into detail why understanding why a child is fussy because

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Speaker 3: then you can then put the right fix in place.

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Speaker 3: So it's getting that match up as well, because yeah,

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Speaker 3: cents three could be avocado could be a sensory issue there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I love this. I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: about the gut biome, but we're out of time.

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Speaker 2: Do you reckon? Do you reckon that?

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Speaker 1: You'd be happy to come back on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: have a chat about that maybe in a week or so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 3: I'm a gut health geek, so anytime more than happy

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Speaker 3: to All.

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Speaker 2: Right, sounds great.

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Speaker 1: Karina Savage is a pediatric dietitian. She runs Nourishing Kids.

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Speaker 1: Karina whereabouts can people find more about Nourishing Kids, the

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Speaker 1: membership and the service that you offer.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so if they can head to my website which

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Speaker 3: is www dot nourish with Karina dot com. So it's

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Speaker 3: Nourished with Karina k A r i NA dot com

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Speaker 3: and all the information there.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk gut biomes next week. It's something

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by. I'm looking forward to that. Karina Savage

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Speaker 1: is a pediatric dietitian living and working in Sydney. Nourishment

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Speaker 1: with Karina dot Com is the website. We'll link to

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Speaker 1: that in the show notes, and we'll chat more next week.

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Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rawan from

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Speaker 1: Bridge Media. More information about making your family happier is

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Speaker 1: available at happy families dot com, dot a you