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Speaker 1: This is a podcast about failure with me. Lola Berry, author, nutritionist,

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Speaker 1: and yoga teacher join me as we get to know

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Speaker 1: these guests and learn about how their failures have ultimately

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Speaker 1: shaped their dreams. Welcome to fearlessly Failing with Lola Berry. Geta,

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Speaker 1: it's Lola Berry here. This next guest is a very

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Speaker 1: dear maid of mine. His name is Jad. He's an

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Speaker 1: awesome naturopath, counselor nutritionist and his whole passion and jam

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Speaker 1: is really about mindful self compassion. I've known Jad. We

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Speaker 1: figured out we lived on the same street when we

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Speaker 1: were like, Oh, he was twelve, so he's a few

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Speaker 1: years old than me. So probably since I was like ten,

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Speaker 1: I knew Jad. And he's have blue dread locks. The

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Speaker 1: poor bugger. I keep reminding him of it. Anyway, I

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Speaker 1: want you to meet Dad. He's awesome, he's passionate, he's

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Speaker 1: got zero ego, and he's so intelligent. And yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think you're gonna learn a lot from this one, and

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Speaker 1: it really opens our mind up to embracing failure. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so I'm actually really mindful. The way I talk, I know,

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Speaker 1: my voice is really loud. I'm so excited to introduce

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Speaker 1: you to this next person. He's going to kill me

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Speaker 1: for saying this, and he's just his eyes have just

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Speaker 1: gone really wide. But Chad is the smartest person I know.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling the truth here. So we've been mates for

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Speaker 1: quite a few years, and I'm quite pumped to kind

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Speaker 1: of like unpack that a little bit because I've got

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Speaker 1: memories of you that I don't know that you've no.

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Speaker 2: Is it to do with picking my nose?

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Speaker 1: No? Okay, good, Why did you used to pick your

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Speaker 1: nose all the time? Let's go if we can talk

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Speaker 1: about that lower. But so Jad is a natural path

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Speaker 1: a qualified nutritionist, a counselor. But your your I would say,

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Speaker 1: your jam is this mindful self compassion as a form

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Speaker 1: of therapy in my.

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Speaker 2: Correct Absolutely, Yeah, That's what I'm most passionate about these days.

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Speaker 1: So I'm so excited. Do you know the theme of

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Speaker 1: this podcast? I was like, Dad, can you be on

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Speaker 1: my podcast? It's about failure. I'm so effing pumped to

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Speaker 1: have you here. You can swear by the way, there's

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Speaker 1: no rules, But I quickly want to go back to

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Speaker 1: before you were a nutritionist, before you were you know,

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Speaker 1: delve into like counseling act, therapy, all these things. My

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Speaker 1: first memory of you is when you had blue dreadlocks

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Speaker 1: and we lived on the same street in nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been about ninety five ninety.

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Speaker 1: Six, around that sort of how old will we be then?

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Speaker 2: I was fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, when you were friends with

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Speaker 2: your little little sister, and you were the little little

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Speaker 2: girl from down the street that would get out in

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Speaker 2: the front of our house and sell tight our t

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Speaker 2: shirts with my little sister. So she was already entrepreneurial

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Speaker 2: at the age of about like nine or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And you, I remember. So we'd always go to their

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Speaker 1: place to play, and you were in the front room

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Speaker 1: on the right hand side when you walked in. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I had a pet turtle.

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Speaker 2: I had two pet turtles. My room was like blood

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Speaker 2: colored red with like grunge band posters everywhere. It was

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Speaker 2: your cliched, miserable, angsty teenager at the time.

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Speaker 1: And you fire toiled.

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Speaker 2: Recently recently brought that out again as part of my

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Speaker 2: ongoing midlife crisis.

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Speaker 1: I heard you tell me about this midlife crisis. He

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Speaker 1: looks so handsome, by the way. I need to preface

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Speaker 1: that right. Now, we actually will talk about like our

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Speaker 1: food addictions. And Jad has a little thing for custard tarts.

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Speaker 1: Am I right?

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Speaker 2: I have a thing for a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: We both like sweet though, right and be like, oh no,

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Speaker 1: I've seen Oh actually both quite like the new Darili

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Speaker 1: licorice chocolate, and we both ate a whole family but good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but see all eat it and put like five kilos

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Speaker 1: on overnight, whereas you'll eat it and still look very

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Speaker 1: handsome and spelt.

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Speaker 2: I might talk about a study on donuts that relates

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Speaker 2: to that later, Oh, bring it on.

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Speaker 1: So then fast forward to my next memory of you.

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Speaker 1: We worked together at Paran Health Foods, and my first

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Speaker 1: shift I was talking to another staff member, Jevin, who's

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Speaker 1: I think is still your mate? And I said, bah,

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Speaker 1: blah blah, I love biophilia, the healing power of mother nature.

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Speaker 1: And someone's ears pricked up. And Chad hadn't acknowledged me

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Speaker 1: at this stage of the game. He obviously thought it

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Speaker 1: was too smart to engage with the fee.

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Speaker 2: And I was actually intimidated by Lola at the time.

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Speaker 2: She had like a book out and a YouTube thing,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, who is this girl that's like,

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Speaker 2: you know, going places in.

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Speaker 1: You turned around though, and you're like, did you just

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Speaker 1: say biophilia And I was like, yes, I did. So

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Speaker 1: I both nerded out over that. And then I turned

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Speaker 1: him and said did you did you live in Albert

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Speaker 1: Park And you're like yes, And I'm like did you

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Speaker 1: have a dog called Flynn? And You're like yes, And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, named after Flinders because that's where you used

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Speaker 1: to go on like family holidays. I'm taking cognitive function

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Speaker 1: stuff at the moment. By the way, I think my

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Speaker 1: memory is quite good and I do them missing my

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Speaker 1: troops anyway, which we can talk about in a second

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Speaker 1: as well. Anyway, I think I freaked you out in

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Speaker 1: that moment.

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Speaker 2: You did well. You also asked if you knew my

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Speaker 2: cousin and if my cousin's listening, I love her dearly,

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Speaker 2: but she's a rat bag, and so I straight away

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, how does this girl or my cousin?

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Speaker 2: And what's the link here?

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Speaker 1: Money here?

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Speaker 2: You didn't even mention the name of money.

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Speaker 1: I'm throwing I'll put it through.

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Speaker 2: So I was just like, how does how does Lolan

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Speaker 2: my what's what's the link year? And what's going on?

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Speaker 2: And then and then as it turned out, she yeah,

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Speaker 2: we made established that we grew up a few doors

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Speaker 2: down from one another, and she was good friends with

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Speaker 2: my little sister, and they used to get them into

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Speaker 2: all sorts of mischief.

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Speaker 1: Together we got caught shoplifting together toothbrushes, Disney toothbrushes and

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Speaker 1: the hair scrunches. Yeah, good see you've got a great memory.

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Speaker 2: Too, Yes, that a man down an alleyway made you steal.

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Speaker 1: I told the truth though I was in So we

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Speaker 1: were all there was three of us and another chick

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Speaker 1: called Bobby who was like the rule of the bad people.

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Speaker 1: So we all stole these toothbrushes, I think some tip

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Speaker 1: more tied one for our business and scrunchies, and all

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Speaker 1: the parents found out and we were like a man

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Speaker 1: made still a town. Allie's steal kids Disney toothbrushes, and.

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Speaker 2: My mum and Auntie, who were school teachers, we're just like, right,

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Speaker 2: a man made you steal some Disney toothbrushes and some scrunches.

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Speaker 2: And the time I was just like, oh my god,

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Speaker 2: my mum's being so mean to these poor kids. You know,

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Speaker 2: they've just been like harassed by a man down the street.

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Speaker 2: And then Lola caved and burst into tears with her

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Speaker 2: parents and they stop.

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Speaker 1: I was such a diffidult. I was always a goodie

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Speaker 1: two shoes at school. I do remember that. How funny.

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Speaker 1: So my theory is we were always meant to be mates.

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Speaker 1: That's my thing. I think Jad and I were designed

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Speaker 1: to be friends. Yes, And you haven't been able to

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Speaker 1: really get rid of me, have you since I left

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Speaker 1: friend Health Foods what five.

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Speaker 2: Five years ago? And I.

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Speaker 1: Remember Chad's like, you should not be getting rid of her.

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Speaker 1: She's with them one person. Okay, So we've a sad

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Speaker 1: wished were very good mates. So I'm guessing there'll be

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Speaker 1: a few laughs in this podcast. The other thing, the

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Speaker 1: next thing that I a serious question, Why the hell

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Speaker 1: did you start studying nutrition and neutropathy and what made

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Speaker 1: you want to go down that path?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean there's lots of convoluted reasons. So

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Speaker 2: that one of the first things that got me interested

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Speaker 2: in and atropathy and nutrition and that sort of area,

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Speaker 2: which I've talked about a few times with people, is

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Speaker 2: I had, as you mentioned, lots of pets growing up.

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Speaker 2: So I had angel fish and turtles and rabbits and

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Speaker 2: guinea pigs and green tree frogs and cats and dogs

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Speaker 2: and all of those sorts of things. And I wanted

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Speaker 2: to breed angel fish, and so I learned lots about

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Speaker 2: fish breeding or how you sort of get them into

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Speaker 2: optimal health so that they'll sort of, you know, have babies.

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Speaker 2: And one of the most important things was you had

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Speaker 2: to give them a really very diet, and you had

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Speaker 2: to give them some live food. Like if you fed

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Speaker 2: them like mosquito larvae and worms and things and bugs

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Speaker 2: and stuff, they'd be in much more optimal health and

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Speaker 2: they'd get into of breeding condition. If you just fed

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Speaker 2: them the standard dry flake food and didn't look after

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Speaker 2: their environment, you know, give them a nice big tank

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Speaker 2: with plants and stuff to explore, they wouldn't be happy

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Speaker 2: and they wou wouldn't reproduce. And I thought it was

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Speaker 2: really fascinating, and I always was like, well, what does

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Speaker 2: that mean for humans? Like what's our optimal environment and

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Speaker 2: what's our optimal diet and what are we supposed to

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Speaker 2: be eating?

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Speaker 1: And how old were you when you were realizing that

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Speaker 1: fish and humans are alike?

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Speaker 2: Eleven or two? I mean I was always obsessed with

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Speaker 2: nature documentaries as a little kid, so I was kind

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Speaker 2: of like, we are animals, like I never had, Like

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Speaker 2: I always used to get very angry and people would

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Speaker 2: make a distinction between humans and animals. And then I

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Speaker 2: went down the whole path of becoming quite a militant

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Speaker 2: vegan for a little while and got into, you know,

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Speaker 2: wanting to be a raw foodist and stuff, which I

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Speaker 2: failed miserably at because Cabrie kremeggs are not a raw food,

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Speaker 2: believe it or not.

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Speaker 1: Another addiction, and.

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Speaker 2: So through that I sort of got interested in nutrition

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Speaker 2: and health also became a vegetarian, and my parents both

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Speaker 2: said to me, we'll support you, but you need to

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Speaker 2: learn about what you need to eat to be healthy.

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Speaker 2: So I was like, well, I'll show them, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll learn about that sort of stuff. So I started

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Speaker 2: reading books on vegetarianism and you know, protein combining and

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Speaker 2: all those sorts of things that were sort of a

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Speaker 2: thing at the time, and got fascinated them by human

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Speaker 2: nutrition and by health in general. Then that sort of

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Speaker 2: led me down the path of potentially I wanted to

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Speaker 2: become a vet and work with animals. Leading down the

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Speaker 2: vet yeah, possibly would have been a more profitable career choice.

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Speaker 2: And also during my early years and teenage years, I

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Speaker 2: suffered from pretty bad anxiety, which at the time I

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Speaker 2: didn't know that's what it was. I just thought there

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Speaker 2: was something kind of intrinsically kind of wrong with me,

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Speaker 2: but also being kind of timid and anxious, I didn't

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Speaker 2: like to talk about it. I didn't want anyone to

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Speaker 2: know because I thought there was something wrong with me,

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Speaker 2: and so that's shameful, and so you hide that. You

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Speaker 2: don't tell people about your problems.

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Speaker 1: See, I always thought you were shy. I was quite shy.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember having like like when all the kids

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Speaker 1: would play. I don't remember you like I remember you

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Speaker 1: like the cool hair, but like I don't remember ever

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Speaker 1: really like you were kind of like, yeah, reserve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I kept to myself a lot, and it was

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Speaker 2: more kind of nerdy and reading a lot of books

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Speaker 2: and things or hanging out like in my cubby house

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Speaker 2: or whatever, away from every I was. I was quite shy,

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Speaker 2: quite timid, and that led to a disposition towards you know, anxiety.

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Speaker 2: And during my sort of teenageys, I also suffered from

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Speaker 2: obsessive compulsive disorder, anxiety attacks, periods of pretty intense depression,

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Speaker 2: lots of psychosomatic disorder, so to about syndrome and headaches

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Speaker 2: that were related to anxiety and stress that were sort

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Speaker 2: of exacerbated by that. And so can I ask.

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Speaker 1: How, like, how did the because I've had OCD as well,

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Speaker 1: how did that manifest?

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Speaker 2: As in my early childhood, I used to have to

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Speaker 2: complete certain rituals so and I still do this. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: when I'm tense, I will tense my right sort of

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Speaker 2: bicep muscle. Then I have to tense my left to

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Speaker 2: balance it out. And then because the right's gone first,

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Speaker 2: then the left has to have its turner going first,

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Speaker 2: So then I have to tense my left one and

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Speaker 2: then my right one, and then that balances that out.

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Speaker 2: But when I'm super anxious, particularly in the past, when

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Speaker 2: these symptoms were a lot worse, I could never quite

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Speaker 2: get that balance right, and I would compulsively tense and

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Speaker 2: twitch those muscles over and over and over again, to

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Speaker 2: the point where sometimes my ligament would swell up with pain.

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Speaker 1: I swit doing like over thirty times in a go.

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Speaker 2: I could do it a few hundred times. Yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Was about to say, You're lucky because it's not overtly

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Speaker 1: obvious when you were doing it, but I was like

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Speaker 1: a light switch girl.

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Speaker 2: I was a light switcher as.

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Speaker 1: Well, and like I have to fold clothes a certain way.

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Speaker 2: I wish I had that tendency.

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Speaker 1: You could use it for like neatness.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I wish mine and my exes of all

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Speaker 2: sort of Why can't your OCD be like being neat

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Speaker 2: and tidy? Unfortunately, it's just things have to be done

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Speaker 2: in a certain way, and I'd get very distressed if

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Speaker 2: they weren't. I'm well and truly beyond the worst of

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Speaker 2: that now, but it got to the point at some

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Speaker 2: stages when it was really bad, Say, if I was driving,

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Speaker 2: I'd need to be doing this muscle tensing and sometimes

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Speaker 2: I have to take my hands off the wheel, like

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've ever told anyone that, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: it could get quite bad.

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Speaker 1: Is the theory that if you didn't do it, something

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Speaker 1: horrible is about to happen.

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Speaker 2: So I never Technically, I guess I have ticks as

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Speaker 2: opposed to true obsessive compulsive disorder. So there's the obsessions

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Speaker 2: things you think that where something terrible might happen, and

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Speaker 2: the compulsion is if I carry out this ritual that

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Speaker 2: will stop the bad thing. From happening, so I tend

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Speaker 2: to have more just the compulsions as a very early child,

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Speaker 2: like I wouldn't step on a crack because I was

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Speaker 2: worried something bad would happen, But the thinking behind it

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Speaker 2: sort of disappeared, but the ritualistic sort of behaviors would continue,

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Speaker 2: so I'd have to do things in a certain way,

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Speaker 2: turn the lights off in a certain way. You used

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Speaker 2: to have certain bedtime rituals stemmed from well, it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to say. There's a strong genetic component towards OCD,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of phobia, anxiety and OCD in

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Speaker 2: particularly in my mum's side of the family. And there's

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Speaker 2: some perfectionistic traits in my dad's side of the family,

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Speaker 2: and that also relates to anxiety and ocity. So there

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Speaker 2: was probably a genetic component. Who knows, there was probably

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Speaker 2: some stuff going on in terms of maybe how I

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Speaker 2: was raised, do whatever, And I don't want to point

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Speaker 2: blame or fingers at anyone. It's just you know, kids

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Speaker 2: a different.

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Speaker 1: But we're both from divorce parents, are we exactly?

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Speaker 2: And certainly at the time of my parents divorce and

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Speaker 2: leading up to that, that's when a lot of these

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Speaker 2: symptoms really became magnified. So I was probably internalizing a

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Speaker 2: lot of that stress that was around me and not

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Speaker 2: understanding it, and so it was manifesting in some of

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Speaker 2: these kind of physical sort of symptoms.

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Speaker 1: And I think when you lay it out like that,

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Speaker 1: and it's absolutely not about pointing blame at all. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I'm not a parent yet, but

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Speaker 1: I imagine one day I'll be like, oh, when I

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Speaker 1: have kids, I'm sure I'm going to be like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, my parents are just people and I'm just

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Speaker 1: a person, and sure like they're going to do things

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Speaker 1: that are going to have a shit impact on their

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Speaker 1: kids and it's just what they think is the best

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Speaker 1: thing in that time. So I think as well, like

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Speaker 1: going through being a child that's gone through divorce, Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's a shitty thing for a child to go through,

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Speaker 1: because we do blame ourselves for things that we can't control.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we just don't understand that that sense of

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Speaker 2: lack of control is stressful in itself as well, especially

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Speaker 2: as a child, and that kind of family unit dismantling

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Speaker 2: has a big impact. And this is well established in

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Speaker 2: the literature too. It's so commonplace nowadays we sort of

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Speaker 2: just accepted as it is and think, oh, everybody's parents

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Speaker 2: get divorced and stuff. But depending on the age where

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Speaker 2: certain events happen, if you're going through a particular developmental

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Speaker 2: stage in your life, even small stresses can potentially have

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Speaker 2: a big impact if it's at a critical point in

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Speaker 2: your psychological and physical development. So sometimes it can be

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Speaker 2: as a little thing, like perhaps when you know a

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Speaker 2: younger sibling was born and your mum was busy attending

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Speaker 2: to their needs and dad was busy with work, and

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Speaker 2: you were at a particular stage in your development where

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Speaker 2: you were needing a lot of attention and that wasn't

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Speaker 2: given to you. That will shake your personality and your

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Speaker 2: attachment style and the way you relate to people in

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Speaker 2: the future. And none of that's necessarily pathological or a

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Speaker 2: bad thing, but it will shape your tendencies towards strengths

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Speaker 2: and weaknesses, and some things will do well and some

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Speaker 2: things will do less well. And if that's magnified by

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Speaker 2: additional stress, trauma, et cetera, that can then lead to

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Speaker 2: psychopathology like problems with anxiety and are.

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Speaker 1: There are the ages the same for everyone, like as

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Speaker 1: seven in.

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Speaker 2: Age well, there's certain sort of milestones, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: a developmental psychologist, so I can't really comment too much

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Speaker 2: on that, but there are certain periods of time where

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Speaker 2: those influences are far more important. So pretty much the

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Speaker 2: whole way through childhood and adolescence, there's your brain is

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Speaker 2: being created and you know it's being shaped, and it's

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Speaker 2: very malleable in that time, so things that happen then

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Speaker 2: are much more likely to leave lasting impacts and say,

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Speaker 2: things that happen to you in your twenties or your

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Speaker 2: thirties or your forties. So certainly very very early life,

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Speaker 2: so before the age of three, you can make big

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Speaker 2: predictions on a child's behavior in that up till that

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Speaker 2: age and how they're likely to behave in relationships as adults.

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Speaker 1: How fascinating is that really? And all the emotional out

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Speaker 1: of it just like look at it from I guess

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Speaker 1: almost like a scientific the aspect you're coming from right now,

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Speaker 1: and then if you throw on top of that like

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Speaker 1: spiritual stuff like your soul chose to have this life

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Speaker 1: and have the parents that it's had and have the

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Speaker 1: experience that it's had, it's pretty fascinating exactly.

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Speaker 2: And it's all. You know, it's a huge kind of

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Speaker 2: learning curve we have to all go through and it

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Speaker 2: involves a lot of you know, by understanding a lot

351
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Speaker 2: of this stuff, you then have to bring in a

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Speaker 2: lot of sort of self forgiveness too, because you realize

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Speaker 2: I'm the product of a whole confluence of factors that

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Speaker 2: I had no control over, and we all are. So

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Speaker 2: there's you know, there's there's an element of it where

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Speaker 2: there's free will and choice, and there's an element in

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Speaker 2: our lives where we're sort of subject to the wills

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Speaker 2: of things around us, a deterministic sort of universe. So

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Speaker 2: we kind of have to walk that fine line between

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Speaker 2: feeling empowered but also accepting that some things are outside

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Speaker 2: of our control.

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Speaker 1: So you just reminded me of something. And I didn't

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Speaker 1: have this in a note to talk about, but I

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Speaker 1: remember we were working together Bran Health Food and you

365
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Speaker 1: were like, you need to have a therapist. I remember

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Speaker 1: you said to me, and I was like, ah, no way,

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Speaker 1: and You're like why not, And I was like, it's

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Speaker 1: a weakness, it's a failure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I would feel shameful if I went to one. I

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Speaker 1: would feel like there's something wrong with me. I'm not

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Speaker 1: good enough, and you're like, Lula, you go to yoga

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Speaker 1: every day, you go to the gym, why can't you

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Speaker 1: go to the gym for your brain. I remember you

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Speaker 1: said it's like gym for your brain exactly. And I

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Speaker 1: think you're speaking so comfortably and openly, and I know

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Speaker 1: that this is your skill set and something you're very

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Speaker 1: passionate about, but about things that would be reasonably uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Like an adult would probably

380
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Speaker 1: find it tricky to go, oh, yeah, I had OCD

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Speaker 1: and it crops up when I'm really really stressed out

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Speaker 1: or under pressure. But the way you speak about it

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Speaker 1: so clearly tells me that you've done the work.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, and it's always a work in progress. And

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Speaker 2: you're right. I often say to people when they're considering

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Speaker 2: therapy or they're going through a rough time, and I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: if you were struggling with your fitness, would you see

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Speaker 2: a personal trainer? And they're like, well, yeah, i'd consider

389
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Speaker 2: doing that. That makes sense, And I'm like, well, it's

390
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Speaker 2: sort of a similar sort of thing. It's a it's

391
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Speaker 2: not a perfect analogy, but if you go to see

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Speaker 2: a personal trainer, one you're going to show up every week.

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Speaker 2: You've got to do the work. You've got to put

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Speaker 2: in the work outside of the sessions, and when you

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Speaker 2: go there, some days it's going to be blood, sweat

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Speaker 2: and tear. Sometimes you're not going to have a fun time.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you're going to come out of that session feeling

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Speaker 2: a bit sourer and a bit a bit like, you

399
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Speaker 2: know what am I doing? I'm not getting anywhere with this.

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Speaker 2: A good trainer will encourage you through that, will hold

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Speaker 2: space for you to do the exercises effectively and appropriately,

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Speaker 2: and we'll do some stretches at the end to make

403
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:37,359
Speaker 2: sure that it's all you know, you relax and contain,

404
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 2: And similarly, a good therapist should do the same sort

405
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Speaker 2: of thing. You'll be exposing yourself to some of the

406
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Speaker 2: difficult emotional experiences that we all have and the difficult

407
00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 2: thoughts we sort of have, exploring them and how they

408
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Speaker 2: impact your life, and then looking at strategies of ways

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Speaker 2: of maybe relating to that in a different way that's

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Speaker 2: going to be more beneficial to you in the long run.

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Speaker 2: But there will be sessions sometimes, you know, you don't

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Speaker 2: always feel good theist. Sometimes you feel like what the

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Speaker 2: hell am I doing?

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Speaker 1: Actually, I said to you right for I said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know why. I've just had a therapy session right

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Speaker 1: before I come here in his interview, but I said

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Speaker 1: to my therapist, so I was like, I'm loving this

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Speaker 1: growth we're doing, I said, but fuck, I hate it sometimes.

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Speaker 1: And he just started laughing. And I was like, because

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Speaker 1: I'm so aware that there's this beautiful moment when you

421
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Speaker 1: realize you're like very okay with being shit along the

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Speaker 1: way and you're very comfortable, like I really don't care

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Speaker 1: what people think of me nowadays versus like even two

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Speaker 1: years ago. And but yeah, I said to him. I

425
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Speaker 1: was like, I can feel I'm in this massive growth phase.

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Speaker 1: I was like, but please tell me I'm going to

427
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Speaker 1: step out of this fucking lake sometimes and go I've

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Speaker 1: done the growth. I've done that phase. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying you're ever going to walk out of after it,

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Speaker 1: because a couple of years of the therapist you can

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Speaker 1: walk away and go, I'm healed now. But I feel

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Speaker 1: like it's just like you were saying, there's certain phases

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Speaker 1: of your life where you're like, oh, tick, now there's

434
00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,040
Speaker 1: a new life lesson to focus on or there's something

435
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 1: to grow from. But I think, oh, this is why

436
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to have you here, Like you're very

437
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:08,960
Speaker 1: comfortable and passionate to talk about failure. And I think,

438
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,600
Speaker 1: as well, you have inspired me a lot because I'm

439
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,200
Speaker 1: an a type personality. Once Jad said to me, you're

440
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:17,879
Speaker 1: like a shark.

441
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 2: Do you remember saying, yeah, yeah, if you stop swimming,

442
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 2: you'll die.

443
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: Die, You'll die. And again back to that therapy thing,

444
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,720
Speaker 1: I remember I resisted you for quite a while. I resisted,

445
00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 1: like the three closest people to me that like, go

446
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: get a therapist, Go get therapist, Go getther and and

447
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: I remember another thing you said to me, and you said,

448
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 1: if you really want to succeed to the level that

449
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 1: you want to succeed, you're going to need one. And

450
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: so this is where I think people listening to like,

451
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: I've got all these goals, I've got all these dreams.

452
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: I'm very ambitious. It's like, you'll get to a certain level,

453
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:51,159
Speaker 1: but then at some stage you're going to have to

454
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:51,760
Speaker 1: do the work.

455
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,120
Speaker 2: Would you say definitely? And I think you know, one

456
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: of the biggest in terms of like big goal achievement

457
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: and all of that sort of thing, a big part

458
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 2: of what stops people pushing through is there inner critic

459
00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 2: you know, that tendency of themselves to put themselves down,

460
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 2: to criticize themselves, self doubt, self pity, self blame, all

461
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 2: of this kind of over identification with our negative attributes.

462
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,159
Speaker 2: And if you're not in a place safe enough to

463
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: really turn towards that, understand that and accept that as

464
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,639
Speaker 2: part of who you are and then move through it,

465
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: it's going to self sabotage you. It's always going to

466
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,199
Speaker 2: trip you up. It's going to sort of stop you

467
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,239
Speaker 2: from attempting things, trying things. And a lot of this

468
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 2: happens sort of somewhat unconsciously as well, is that you

469
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 2: we have.

470
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: That moment like two weeks later going off, I felt

471
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: so angry about that thing, but all I really needed

472
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 1: was to sit in the feeling, or to sit with

473
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,560
Speaker 1: what was uncomforty, or to express my feelings better, exactly

474
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 1: like you don't often get it till the after. It's

475
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: like when you see someone famous thing, you see an

476
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: ex boyfriend or something, and you're like, why didn't I

477
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: say that when I saw him? You know, it's like

478
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: you have those epiphanies down the track and that's where

479
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: I think therapy helps you to have that skill set.

480
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,360
Speaker 1: Like I feel like this is probably a sharky thing

481
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: to say, I feel sharper when I'm with it. I

482
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: feel more clarity, I feel sharper, I give less of

483
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 1: a shit about what people think. And I'm really okay

484
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: about working on myself and being not being a familue

485
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,199
Speaker 1: is the wrong word, although I do love failing and

486
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: I want to get to that next, but being in

487
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: the shit and being messy, Like, I'm really okay with

488
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: being messy now, And that's I think I would actribute

489
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: to therapy. The thing I wanted to I guess uncover

490
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 1: with you is you were saying to me that sometimes

491
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 1: you have a fear of not trying something because you

492
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 1: may not be good enough at that thing. And I

493
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: think you're not alone, Like I think that would be

494
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 1: when you just touch on it, when your own self

495
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: critic or your own self debt, like I'm not good

496
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 1: enough to do that. How does that? How does that,

497
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: I guess manifesto look in your life?

498
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so now it comes to your comfy star,

499
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 2: I guess. I mean fear of failure is a huge

500
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 2: thing for a lot of people, and particularly people who

501
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: tend to have like a perfectionistic kind of streak in them.

502
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: And that was certainly me growing up. I was a

503
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 2: very good student. I got really good.

504
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 1: Great your like, forget emotional intelligence, which I know you're

505
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: great at. Chad is literally I don't know what your

506
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:31,719
Speaker 1: IQ is.

507
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: It's actually not that I don't ruin it for me.

508
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: He's literally the smartifest I'm going to digress really quickly.

509
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: Do you remember when we were working together with our

510
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 1: friend Geraldine and she was talking about being in Africa

511
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: and these gorilla Can you tell the story? I'm going

512
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 1: to make myself sound so so dumb right now.

513
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 2: So there's woman Geraldine, who's fantastic, very centric, eccentric. She's

514
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 2: a nurse, natural path, hypnotherapist, She's done everything, and she

515
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: was talking about this. She went on this tangent unrelated

516
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: to the conversation we were having about being in rhodes U,

517
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,199
Speaker 2: Zimbabwe in the seventies, and she was like, and we

518
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,479
Speaker 2: were on this bus and then we got we had

519
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: to dive down on the bus because we were being

520
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: shot at by gorillas with machine guns, and me and

521
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: Lola just started laughing and laughing like I'm laughing, like

522
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: how random is this story? Like how relevant was this

523
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: to this conversation? And Lola just kept laughing and laughing,

524
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, oh, hang on, I'm like She's like,

525
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 2: I just I don't understand. How did the how did

526
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 2: the gorillas know how to work machine guns?

527
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: I literally thought I visualized a bus of gorillas with

528
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: machine guns trying to shoot Geraldine.

529
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, like hairy primates that you know, like Coco, the

530
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: gorilla who did sign language, also learned how to use

531
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: a machine gun.

532
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: And Chad was like in that moment, he was like,

533
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: oh my god, you thought they were real gorillas. And

534
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: then I had to learn what a gorilla army was

535
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: and like, my goodness. So it clearly would just preface again,

536
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 1: Chat is much smarter than I have.

537
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 2: But also what is lovely about a situation like that

538
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 2: is how quick you are, and you know, talking about failure,

539
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 2: how quick you are to just laugh that off and

540
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: just be like, oh, well, I didn't know that he

541
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,800
Speaker 2: gives a shit. Whereas, especially me earlier in life, if

542
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 2: I felt like I'd said something really dumb, I would

543
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: have been like, you're an idiot. You shouldn't have opened

544
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: your mouth, Why would you say something so stupid? And

545
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: you know you're better off just not talking rather than

546
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: saying something that you don't know anything about. And it

547
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 2: would hold me back from say asking questions in class.

548
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 2: I might be really passionate and interested in something, but

549
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: because I wasn't sure, I'd be too scared to ask

550
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: a question. It would make me, you know, avoid certain

551
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 2: classes where I wasn't doing so well in I'd just

552
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 2: be like, I don't feel like going to that class,

553
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 2: or i've got a headache today. Certainly in you know,

554
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: primary school, in high school. I just wouldn't if I

555
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 2: felt like I wasn't going to be really good at it,

556
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: I just wouldn't do it at all.

557
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

558
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: And so this and this fear of failure is been

559
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: there my whole life, and a lot of it's been

560
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: sort of unconscious. So I just wouldn't try things, and

561
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: I'd get highly, highly anxious about even the simplest of things.

562
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: Like first time I ever used an ATM, I was

563
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 2: I was too scared to do it because I didn't

564
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 2: know how to do it, and I might look like

565
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 2: an idiot because I didn't know how to do it.

566
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: So I just put off ever doing it to a

567
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: post office because I'd never been to a post office

568
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 2: before on my own to like say, you know, back

569
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: in the days where you could pay bills and stuff

570
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 2: for post office, I just wouldn't do it. I default

571
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 2: defer get someone else to do it.

572
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: Isn't this just a safety thing? Because like, even for me,

573
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, I have to write emails from my laptop,

574
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: not my phone because what if they go to the

575
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: on my phone and get lost. To this day, I'm

576
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: still like my publishers are like, we know you only

577
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: write emails at night because you need to write them

578
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: off your laptop. Like I'm is that just not a

579
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: safety thing?

580
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: Or I mean it is? I mean any of these things.

581
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: And we can talk about sort of fear of failure.

582
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: What it's really about is normally a fear of shame

583
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: and a fear of your own response to your perceived failing.

584
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: So you know, a lot of it was about other

585
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 2: people are going to think that I'm dumb or stupid

586
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 2: or incompetent or don't know how to do something. And

587
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: a lot of this was very unconscious. It was just

588
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,879
Speaker 2: I couldn't even think about it. It was just just afraid,

589
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 2: didn't want to do it, wouldn't do it, would put

590
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 2: it off, get someone else to do it for me.

591
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: Just on you with like the fear of failure and

592
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: you're going to again kill me for this and the

593
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: fear of shame. Is this why you haven't written a book?

594
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: No, but we can talk about how that came into it.

595
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: So I did write a manuscript for a book.

596
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and clearly you've got a book in you. And

597
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure people listening will be like agreeing in with

598
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: me on this, like you're so knowledgeable and passionate.

599
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: So procrastination is a huge part of fear of failure.

600
00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: Can be sometimes procrastinations just laziness, but procrastination often is

601
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,239
Speaker 2: is associated with fear of failure and self criticism. And

602
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: so I had written a manuscript, sent it to the

603
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: book publishers who were interested. They said, oh, look, we

604
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: don't think it's right for us right now. Maybe you

605
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: could try sending it to some other publishers, but it's

606
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 2: just not quite what we were wanting. And I did

607
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: then just was like, oh, okay, I give up.

608
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: Oh you thought you were not good enough and.

609
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: Not good enough at the time. I also I had

610
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: just been given another opportunity. I wanted to focus my

611
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 2: energy on that. But there was a part of me

612
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: still at that time that was just like, Oh, it

613
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 2: wasn't good enough. I can't do this, It wasn't perfect enough.

614
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god, if you knew how many times, like

615
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: I remember, I got books for a TV gig and

616
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we've just found out you don't have

617
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: a child. You no longer fit the brief.

618
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

619
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: And I was like, what, so I'm being punished because

620
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: I don't have it, because I want to talk about

621
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: health from an aspect of a mother, right, And I

622
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: didn't realize that. I remember, it's binge on a block

623
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: of lind pistachio chocolate. That was the end of my day.

624
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: And I do it the next day, which is still

625
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: a bad way to handle failure. But my point is,

626
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: if if you only knew how many times with especially

627
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: in television world, Yeah, two fat, too, skinny, blonde hair,

628
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: the wrong look, the wrong this, the wrong top, your

629
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: boobs are too big. All this shit like that is

630
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: very literal things that have been said.

631
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that was shocking to me. Working with Lola

632
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 2: for the few years I did and then staying good

633
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: friends with her, and also revelatory for me to realize

634
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: like to and I don't like the words successful, but

635
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 2: like to be really successful enough to really achieve some

636
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: of your big dreams and goals you have to You

637
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 2: will fail, you will fall on your face a number

638
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: of times, you'll fall down more times than you'll stand up,

639
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,239
Speaker 2: and you've got to be able to pick yourself up

640
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: and keep going. And I was always inspired by Laura

641
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: as a friend because she kept doing that even though

642
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 2: she and she, you know, heard some horrible, horrible things,

643
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: like there's so many things that people said to you,

644
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: and I'm just like, I would not be okay with

645
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: Like I am so morally repulsed by that kind of language,

646
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: that that's just not okay. That she'd sort of take

647
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: a knock and then be like, okay, right, eyes on

648
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: the prize, still going to keep going. And so I

649
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: learned a bit from that that what, you know, why

650
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: do I take, you know, one knock back and then

651
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, well that's the end of that. I

652
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: can't do that again. So it's been in the last

653
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 2: kind of ten years really that I've been unpacking a

654
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: lot of that sort of stuff and working on that

655
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: and that's led me down. Well, it's you know, in

656
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 2: part directed where my career has sort of gone and

657
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: more of a focus on mental health and counseling.

658
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: But also, you're a very successful in clinic. We are

659
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: in your clinic at the moment. Yeah, true health. Sorry

660
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: Hills Melbourne.

661
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: Not my clinic where I work. Better.

662
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: See how he doesn't like talk himself up. I'd be like, yes,

663
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: this is my clinic and the reason it's not called

664
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: Lullaberry is because it's in a name change face. But

665
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: can I say one thing on the failure thing? How

666
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: your perception of me is successful. I've never seen myself

667
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: as successful and I don't know if that's self doubt,

668
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: low self worthing, but I haven't lost sleep over not

669
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: seeing myself as successful. I've also not compared myself to

670
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: other people doing the same thing as me. I'll see

671
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: people doing things and think they're fake and be like,

672
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: oh fuck another dingo. Like definitely I'll have that moment.

673
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: But and I saw Gary Vee speak. Do you know

674
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: Gary Vee? He's like a motivational, entrepreneurial guy, extremely aggressive

675
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: in his nature of spreading his message. Like, he's like,

676
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 1: you got a dream, fucking do it, no excuses. Go

677
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: to our old people's home, go and look at regret

678
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: and faces, and then go and focus on your dream.

679
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: Move back to your parents, save money. Like it's very

680
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: I love it. Though. Of course, as you know, my

681
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: nature has got an aggressive side to the way I

682
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: do things. Not in a bad way, guys, just in

683
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: a I go quite hard when I try to achieve

684
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: a goal, right and so. And when I sat in

685
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: the audience to watch Gary V speak, it was like

686
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: eighty percent male, and like, because it's so his nature

687
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: is like more Yang so yang. I was like, I

688
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: kept saying aggressive, but he's very yang. And he said

689
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: the most successful people in the world love to fail.

690
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: And that was the first time where I really resonated

691
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 1: with him, and I was like, I love it. If

692
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: you ask me what the sixth the biggest successes of

693
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: my career, I'd be like, oh, when I bought a

694
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: diet plan out and I defended all these people, and

695
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: I hurt heats of people, but I and I regret

696
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,959
Speaker 1: hurting people. But I learned that no one really had

697
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: my back. I learned that I was a dollar signed

698
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 1: to people that I thought I had friendships and stuff

699
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: like that, and you know, like contracts got frozen and

700
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: things like that. And the thing that blew my socks

701
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: off the most was other health influencers was using my

702
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 1: negative press to build themselves up. And I was like,

703
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: he motherfuckers, Like, no one's got your back. And I remember,

704
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: in that moment, I learn it pretty young, like I

705
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: was still in my twenties, and I was like, fuck,

706
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: if I really want to achieve something, I need to

707
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: do it on my own, like and not in not

708
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: like meaning that you can't work with people to achieve goals,

709
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: but know that most people give more of a shit

710
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: about themselves than you generally, and that you have to

711
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: have your own back. So now I'm like, bring on

712
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: the failure. I've got my own back. And I know

713
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: I'm a pretty good person at the bottom of the deck,

714
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 1: Like when all's done and dusted, I'm a good soul,

715
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 1: Like I give a shit about people and I give

716
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: a shit about a good message. So I think, like,

717
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 1: if that's kind of like you've got that I guess baseline,

718
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: then you can build from that, you can fail from

719
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: that because you can always come back and go regroup's

720
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: let's figure out if do I need to apologize this thing?

721
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: Do you know? I don't know if that's a weird

722
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: way of saying it, but the roundabout way of what

723
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: I did just say is like, celebrate the failures.

724
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: Yeah really and look forward to fucking ask which is

725
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: I think and for a lot of people just hearing

726
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: that would be terrifying. For me, that would be a

727
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: terrifying kind of concept. It was funny just before we

728
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 2: started recording, I was grabbing a coffee next door, and

729
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: so the director of the clinic, Stepp, who I work with,

730
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: and chatted quickly about the theme of the podcast and

731
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 2: failure and stuff, and she's like, oh my god, I

732
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 2: love failure. I fail so many times a day. And

733
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: you know, she's a real go getter, entrepreneurial, dynamic sort

734
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 2: of personality. And it's been fascinating for me exploring these

735
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: concepts to see how bigger trait that is in people

736
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: who really sort of push their lives to the max?

737
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: Is it? They're just like, failure is just feedback, you know,

738
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 2: Failure is just part of the process of learning. Whereas

739
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: I think, and this this might be worth all time

740
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: to talk about The concept of shame is that if

741
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: you've got a severe fear of failure, shame comes into it,

742
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 2: this fear that you're going to be rejected, that you're

743
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: going to be you know, that the people aren't going

744
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: to love you, that people are going to think you're hopeless,

745
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: a loser, or an idiot, all of those sorts of things.

746
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 2: And it might be worth talking about the difference between say,

747
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:33,720
Speaker 2: shame and guilt.

748
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: I was about, thank you, what is the difference because

749
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: I reckon, I don't feel shame because like I've had

750
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: nutritions walk up to me and say you're a disgrace

751
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: to the nutrition industry, and I'm like, oh, thanks for

752
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: the feed, Like.

753
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: I'm because of what she wore?

754
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you remember that, Yeah I was. I was.

755
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: I used to dress like Cyndey Laupers. I had a

756
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: big bow in my hair, wet converse on TV and

757
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: she's like, how can anyone take you seriously by what

758
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: you wear? And that didn't Like in the moment, sure,

759
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: I felt like a failure, I felt shameful, but now

760
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,799
Speaker 1: that doesn't I'm like, oh, well, usually when someone makes

761
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: you feel shit or I guess puts their judgment onto you.

762
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: That's a very bad English way of saying it. But

763
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: like judges you, it's often a reflection of their own crap. Anyway.

764
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: I know my own stuff is eating disorder and body dysmorphia.

765
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: So if I see someone really like skinny and quite

766
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: underweight and I'm like hot, damn, they look great, like,

767
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: I'll judge them in a good or bad way straight away,

768
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: and that's I know, it's a reflection of all my

769
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: own shit. Like this. Literally this morning, I was doing

770
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: Muay Thai and I was like, your thighs look so big, lola.

771
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: Now I'm reasonably small human being, So I'm very aware

772
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,879
Speaker 1: that's still my shit. And I think shame. If you're

773
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: afraid of shame, that's I don't know. I don't know

774
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: if it's self judgment. But guilt is something I haven't

775
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: mastered yet. I'm really scared of letting people down.

776
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: They are the two links, the two links, So I

777
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: just sort of actually, I'll come back to that. So

778
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: there's sort of three kind of things, guilt, remorse, and shame.

779
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: Guilt is when we sort of fail to meet certain

780
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: kind of expectations of what's morally or culturally sort of appropriate.

781
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: So we've kind of done the wrong thing. Okay, so

782
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: that's something that we're guilty of. Remorse is you feel

783
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: the guilt about doing something wrong and you want to

784
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: rectify the situation. So you're recognizing the guilt, you want

785
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 2: to do something about it. So guilt is I've done

786
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 2: something wrong. Shame is I've done something wrong, Therefore I

787
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: am wrong. Therefore I am a bad person. So we

788
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 2: personalize it. It's not about what we've done, it's about

789
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 2: us as a whole personality that I am somehow, I've failed,

790
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 2: therefore I am a failure. I've hurt someone, therefore I'm

791
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: an evil person. I've done something stupid, Therefore I'm a

792
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 2: stupid person. So we convert just an action into a

793
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 2: totality of who we are are.

794
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: Is that a kind of selfish thing to do?

795
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: Interesting you say that, because one of the things we

796
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 2: do often is we overidentify with our negative experiences, which

797
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: is a very human thing to do as well. So

798
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 2: we've become very in mess with this idea. So in

799
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: a way, it's kind of sort of selfish and not

800
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,240
Speaker 2: selfish in a way of being self centered and selfish

801
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: in the way of we're not recognizing that we're part

802
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 2: of the greater human experience. That everybody makes mistakes, everybody fails,

803
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: everybody does stupid things from time to time. Everybody is

804
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: in some way less than someone else. That's something that

805
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 2: they do. So a huge part of how I've kind

806
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: of recovered from a lot of internalized shame has been

807
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 2: this concept of self compassion. And self compassion involves a

808
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 2: sense of what we call common humanity, of recognizing that

809
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 2: I am human and it is human to suffer. I'm

810
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: not alone in my suffering. So we don't feel pity

811
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 2: for ourselves when we experience suffering because we recognize this

812
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: is part of the giga being human. That there are

813
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 2: times in life where I'll fail. I feel miserable, i

814
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 2: feel upset, I'm sort depressed. I'll be rejected, I'll be dumped,

815
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 2: I'll be this, I'll be that. I'll make mistakes, I'll

816
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: make poor choices, And instead of thinking, oh, I'm a

817
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,880
Speaker 2: terrible person because of that, we recognize, look, something terrible

818
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: has happened, and that's part of being human. What can

819
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: I learn from this to move on? Or how can

820
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: I look after myself in this moment so I can

821
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 2: recover from this.

822
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: Can I ask a personal question? This is a very

823
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: selfish personal question. So you look after my boyfriend. He's

824
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: very open about that. You're I think my boyfriend has

825
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: been of a man crush on you as well. That's

826
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:43,240
Speaker 1: when you're editing this. It's true he does. But whenever

827
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: we spend the night together, in the morning, he won't

828
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,760
Speaker 1: get out of bed until we do the mindful meditation

829
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: that you've set him as his homework. And sometimes, to

830
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: be honest, I want to punch you because I am

831
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: an a type person. I'm like, I could be running

832
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: right now. I could be running, I could be making coffee,

833
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: i could be doing fifteen emails, and I'm sitting there

834
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: and then voices literally like look after yourself. Done, like

835
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: it's like and put your hand on where you think

836
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my god, this is just like

837
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: And one day we did it and I said to

838
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: Matt's like, how do you feel, I'm like, I just

839
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: want to go binge right now because I've just gone

840
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: that's okay, go eat the cupcake, like I've listened to

841
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 1: this soft and whereas my mentality is like, just get

842
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: it done and do it. And so my question to

843
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 1: you is like. And on the other hand, Matt, my boyfriend,

844
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: would call it a game changer. He's completely responded his anxiety.

845
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: He feels like it's so much more manageable. He knows

846
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: how to take a moment for himself now and he

847
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: feels like, I guess much calmer as a result. How

848
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,840
Speaker 1: to a type people that find trouble in being self compassionate,

849
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: whereas I'd be like, let's and learn boom onto the

850
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: next one like.

851
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 2: Which which can be an element of being compassionate to

852
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 2: the self. So there's sort of two different angles to

853
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 2: self compassion. There is the year and they there's the

854
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: Yan element, which is supportive, soothing, nurturing, attending, caring. Wiles's

855
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:11,759
Speaker 2: face's grimacing at the moment, so we know that there's

856
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 2: some issues there. Then there's the Yang side of self compassion,

857
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:21,479
Speaker 2: which is motivating, providing and protecting. So both of those

858
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: elements come into play. There is times where we need

859
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: to motivate ourselves, protect ourselves, provide for ourselves, push ourselves.

860
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 2: And then there's times where we need to just be

861
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: with our pain, nurture our pain, soothe our pain, and.

862
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 1: Do all those discomfort.

863
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 2: That would be sitting in the discomfort. So the discomfort

864
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: for you in this example might be the discomfort of

865
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 2: just being present.

866
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: Cheeky Bugger usually waited for that to land. And it's true,

867
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: like I can even see some days it lands, and

868
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: it's a bit like what you were saying about they're

869
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: going back to the therapist like a trainer, Like some

870
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 1: days it feels great. And even Matt at the end

871
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 1: of each time each day that I've done in the

872
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: morning is like, have you noticed you're a little bit

873
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: less agitated on the days that we meditate. And I'm like, gee,

874
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 1: and let's just make dinner. Like I'm very I'm almost

875
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,240
Speaker 1: more masculine in that sense.

876
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 2: But and I would suspect in what a lot of

877
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: more men have as a misgiving or fear about self compassion.

878
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 2: And this is this is where you might be coming from,

879
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 2: is that if I'm not pushing, then I'll permit myself

880
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 2: to do anything. If I'm not constantly driving, driving, driving,

881
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 2: then I'm going to completely drop my hands off the

882
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 2: wheel and let the car smash into the wall.

883
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: All or nothing mentality or nothing mentality.

884
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 2: And a good example we use in the self compassion

885
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 2: course I teach and this is straight from the text.

886
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 2: It's not microwad. Is the example of a parent whose

887
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 2: child is just getting ready for dinner and the child says, Mummy,

888
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: I want ice cream for dinner. Is not going to

889
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: say in a compassionate way, okay, darling, whatever you want,

890
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 2: you can have ice cream for dinner. The compassionate thing

891
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: that can be still soft, soothing, calming, nurturing, is like, ah,

892
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 2: it's really nice to eat ice cream. It's a really

893
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 2: enjoyable experience. But it's something we do occasionally. It's not

894
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: something we do every day. What's important now is we

895
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 2: eat food that nourishes us, and you know, sometimes we

896
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: start to enjoy that food as well. So we can

897
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: wait and have some ice cream after dinner or on

898
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 2: a special occasion. So it's not about permissive permissiveness. It's

899
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: not about just open slather. It's about wanting what's best

900
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,319
Speaker 2: for you in the long term. A good way of

901
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: differentiating between the attitude of self compassion. Let me just

902
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: look at my notes here, So is.

903
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: It kind of like bringing it back to the big

904
00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 1: picture as opposed to getting caught.

905
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: Up in a small, smallest It is about looking at

906
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: the bigger picture. And it's about wanting what's best for

907
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: yourself rather than looking at yourself like I'm not good enough,

908
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: therefore I should do this. Yeah, it's good enough as

909
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 2: I am, but I want what's best for myself in

910
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 2: the long term. I want, you know, I want to

911
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: make my life even better in some kind of way,

912
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 2: as opposed to coming from this sort of deficiency angle

913
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: of like not good enough, imperfect, a failure if I

914
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 2: don't do this, and other people and I'm not going

915
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,239
Speaker 2: to see me as being worthy. It's the attitude that

916
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: is different. It's warning what's best for yourself. So giving

917
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: yourself a break can be a very compassionate exercise, but

918
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: also encouraging yourself to keep going can be a very

919
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: compassion thing if the attitude is coming from a place

920
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: warning what's best foreman the long term, loving yourself in

921
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: the process as opposed to you're not good enough as

922
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:44,399
Speaker 2: you are.

923
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: If that makes sense, yes, totally, totally so not beating

924
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: yourself up along the way exactly easier said than done, though,

925
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: my friend. Hence why we need people like you in

926
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: our lives. And do you still on that note, do

927
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 1: you still run your courses?

928
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely so?

929
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: Is that like a six week thing, eight weeks.

930
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: It goes to a very intensive course. Like people who

931
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 2: want to do it, I have to be really committed

932
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: to it, like it's a life changing course. And I

933
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 2: don't say that lightly. I've done loads of personal development

934
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: stuff over the years, and you actually have courses even

935
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 2: like dreamwork retreats and stuff like sweat Lords, like all

936
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 2: sorts of stuff, and some of it's been amazing, some

937
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: of it's been a bit out there. This has been

938
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 2: the biggest life exactly. This has been the biggest life

939
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 2: changing thing for me. So I'll be running it in

940
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: you know, the last term of the school year, so

941
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: that's I think September October or something. It starts. You

942
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 2: can look at look what you would love it? Yeah,

943
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,360
Speaker 2: it's it's I reckon. Everyone could benefit from it. I

944
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: think as a as a culture, we sort of don't

945
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 2: know how to sort of look after ourselves through our

946
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: own suffering. And it's about being able to turn towards

947
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: the suffering you're experiencing and respond to it in a

948
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 2: different way instead of the automatic way of beating ourselves

949
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 2: up up or focusing other people or self soothing in

950
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 2: unhealthy ways. So there's other ways we can soothe our

951
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,920
Speaker 2: pain and discomfort that may be more beneficial on the

952
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: life term. Dr donut study.

953
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: Bring it.

954
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 2: So this is what I just read about today, which

955
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: is really interesting, and I haven't written notes on it,

956
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 2: so let me see if I can remember. It probably

957
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: wasn't a big study, so let's not get too carried

958
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: away with it. But it was a group of women

959
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: who were dieting and they got They gave the women

960
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 2: the option of having a donut, and a lot of

961
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 2: the women felt really guilty afterwards, and some of the

962
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: women were taught how to respond to that guilt in

963
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 2: a self compassionate way. Then later in that day or

964
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: later in some sort of time period, they got given

965
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of lollies and candy to taste, and

966
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: they were in the experiment. They were told it was

967
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 2: past a part of a taste testing market research. And

968
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: what they found was the women who guilted themselves the

969
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: most about eating the donut were more likely than to

970
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: binge on the lollies at the next setting, whereas the

971
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: people who were taught to respond to that donut eating

972
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,959
Speaker 2: get with some self compassion and care. Actually they still

973
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 2: tried some of the lollies, but they didn't over indulge.

974
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 2: They actually had a completely different response to that.

975
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: Been present, mindful.

976
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: Exactly, not sort of beating themselves up about it where

977
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 2: they then felt like, well, I've failed at this. Now

978
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to keep failing at anything I try, so

979
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 2: I just give up and I just indulge and that

980
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 2: sort of thing. So I thought that was an interesting

981
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: thing to observe that just in just a short term

982
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 2: sort of intervention like that, it can make a big

983
00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: difference to how we might have in response to something

984
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 2: I read.

985
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: I heard an interviewed do you know the comedian Jonah Hill. No,

986
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: he's on Wolf of Walt Do you know Wolf of

987
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: Wall Straight with Leonardo DiCaprio.

988
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: I know of it.

989
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:52,280
Speaker 1: So he's the other main guy. He's a very funny comedian.

990
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: And apparently he was on set and he was on

991
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: a cupcake diet and he would eat one cupcake a

992
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 1: day and that's it. And I've heard it. I had

993
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: an old headdress that was on the Hot Cross bundit

994
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: one Hot Cross bund a day, and I'm like, guys,

995
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: that is not and I think we do take it

996
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: to these limits, like even as you're telling you know

997
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: how when I was talking about the failing and the successes,

998
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: and you're like, I'm getting uncomforted, Like as you're describing

999
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 1: the doughnut study, I'm like, I mean, if they depends

1000
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: what the lollies were. If they were chit goes, I'd

1001
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: eat the whole bag, but if they were redskins, I

1002
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't even touch it.

1003
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: So, I mean my brains, Blola and I both have

1004
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: a tendency to like our sugar's next. But it's weird

1005
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 2: how we have complete op as it tast is a

1006
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 2: red skin but a chico. I didn't even know people

1007
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 2: ate those chickos.

1008
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 1: It was like chocolate, jelly beans, jelly babies. I'm a

1009
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 1: chocolate girl though. But every now and then we cross over.

1010
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: We do occasionally cross over, yeah.

1011
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 1: Like normally, Like so I walk into Brant Health and

1012
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, Dad, what's good? And what's And then I'm like,

1013
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: why am I asking you? I paced buds are the opposite.

1014
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: The thing that got me really hooked on when I

1015
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 1: was researching you and this concept of mindful self compassion

1016
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: is that it can act because I and I'm the

1017
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: mistake I made is But when I thought when I

1018
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: did my meditation course, I was like, oh, I'm going

1019
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: to be more wafy and softer, which I fight. I'm like,

1020
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 1: I don't want to be self. I want to be

1021
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: a go getter and I'm always pushing towards something. But

1022
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: when I read like about what mindful self compassion can bring,

1023
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: it was this concept of being more resilient to stress,

1024
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: more motivated to achieve goals, improve relationships, and connection to

1025
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 1: true purpose. And I was like, Oh, sign me up

1026
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: for all of the above, because they're things that to me,

1027
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: I associate with like a better version of life. Like

1028
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: they're all things that we're aspiring to. So I think

1029
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: it's almost like by doing these more nurturing things, whether

1030
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: it be seeing therapists, whether it be learning about mindfulness

1031
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: or meditation or all these kind of like what would

1032
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:55,360
Speaker 1: feel more yin things or gentler things that actually bring

1033
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 1: I guess almost like more determination, more Yeah.

1034
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 2: And that's the very interesting aspect of this. A lot

1035
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: of the research now into self compassion as a personality

1036
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: trait and also a trait that we can develop is

1037
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,120
Speaker 2: that the interesting thing is it's self compassionate people aren't

1038
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,399
Speaker 2: any less likely to set high standards for themselves. In fact,

1039
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 2: sometimes they set slightly higher standards for themselves. But what

1040
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,399
Speaker 2: they do do is that when they fail along the way,

1041
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: which we inevitably do, they're less likely to beat themselves

1042
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 2: up about it, and they pick themselves up and keep going.

1043
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 2: So people who set very high standards but also have

1044
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: very high rates of self criticism, which is sort of

1045
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,799
Speaker 2: the opposite of self compassion, they tend to throw in

1046
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: the towel as soon as they hit one bump in

1047
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: the road because they're so intensely afraid of the hard

1048
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 2: time that they give themselves, which is exactly where I

1049
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: was coming from for many years until I started seeing

1050
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: counselors and therapists and then eventually discovered mindfulness and self

1051
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: compassion training.

1052
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,759
Speaker 1: I feel like as well, like knowing you for so long,

1053
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: and I don't like, we don't need to talk too

1054
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: much about this, but like, your experience with mental health

1055
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: has been quite young, so you were very aware that

1056
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: you had anxiety or what did you call version like

1057
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: IBS symptoms as a result of nervousness and things like that.

1058
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 2: What's that called psycho psychosomatic? Oh?

1059
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: I like that one. That's what I means so like.

1060
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: Well, sommanatization is that the term for when we're now

1061
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:28,440
Speaker 2: in our psychological distress manifests as physical symptoms. Unfortunately, people

1062
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 2: mistake that into thinking that the physical symptoms are imaginary.

1063
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: The physical symptoms are real, they are really there, but

1064
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 2: they're often caused by psychological stress. So there's an important

1065
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,919
Speaker 2: distinction because sometimes people hear that IBS has a psychosomatic

1066
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 2: element and they're like, people are saying, it's all in

1067
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: my head. It's not all in my head. It's real.

1068
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: It's like one hundred percent it's real. And certainly there's

1069
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: going to be physiological impacts like the food you eat,

1070
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,399
Speaker 2: et cetera. But your nervous system plays a profound role

1071
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: because our minds are part of our bodies. We need

1072
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,319
Speaker 2: to stop thinking as the mind as being separate. It's

1073
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: a ridiculous concept. Is a biological part of who we are.

1074
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 2: We just experience it as this separate thing.

1075
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: And isn't it like so highly linked to our gush

1076
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: as well? It makes total sense that if you're nervous,

1077
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: you're going to put.

1078
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 2: Your pants exactly. The nervous system talks directly with the

1079
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 2: gut and the gut talks directly with the central nervous system.

1080
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 2: There's a bidirectional flow of information and both effects one

1081
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 2: another hugely.

1082
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: So and like this is kind of like a bit darker,

1083
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:31,040
Speaker 1: but you have experienced like someone from your past it's

1084
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: commit suicide and would trigger warning on this, but like

1085
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: you were pretty young, that would have had some kind

1086
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: of impact on you.

1087
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:39,840
Speaker 2: Correct, huge, huge, So at the time where I was

1088
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 2: sort of starting atropathy and had already been sort of

1089
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 2: experiencing a lot of severe anxiety and panic attacks and depression,

1090
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: et cetera. My ex ex at the time of still

1091
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 2: it was very good friends. We killed himself due to

1092
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 2: a mental illness, and I then plunged into a peut

1093
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: of intense dispair depression.

1094
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: Because you were young. How old we twenty one?

1095
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 2: That's tiny, Yeah, so had you know a lot of

1096
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 2: what in the literature called complicated grief. So I wasn't

1097
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 2: sort of processing the grief properly due to various different factors,

1098
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: and that led to some pretty serious depression and some

1099
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,720
Speaker 2: shame and guilt, like in terms of fear of failure.

1100
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 2: I felt like, oh, but I was, you know, studying

1101
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:26,920
Speaker 2: health and stuff at the time, I wish I could

1102
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 2: have helped him more. I wish I could have referred

1103
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 2: him on to better services. I wish I could have

1104
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: gotten him onto, you know, to see this nutritional practitioner

1105
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 2: or whatever. So there was still this kind of regret

1106
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 2: and shame that I should have done more, and therefore

1107
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 2: I've failed in some way. And that's very common when

1108
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,480
Speaker 2: people experience any death, but particularly suicide, is there's a

1109
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: lot of survivor guilt. So the people who were left behind,

1110
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: I feel like I wish I could have done more.

1111
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,840
Speaker 2: And just like the guilt and shame we were talking

1112
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 2: about before, I wish I could have done more. I

1113
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 2: wish I didn't do. This can turn into well, therefore

1114
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 2: I'm a bad person because I didn't.

1115
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: So, especially at twenty one, it would be hard to

1116
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: separate yourself from those actuals.

1117
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,440
Speaker 2: You're still your brain's still developing. And I was a

1118
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 2: young twenty one year old, like I still you know,

1119
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 2: I was sort of really figuring myself out. So that's

1120
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 2: when I started looking into I started getting some counseling.

1121
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 2: I started recognizing, actually, I think maybeit fucked.

1122
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 1: In my head, which do you know what I think

1123
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 1: we've all had moments in our life. Like, the reality

1124
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,919
Speaker 1: is every human has gone through a shit on some level,

1125
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: whether it be as hardcore as well we just spoke

1126
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: about with you, whether it be needing sort of, whether

1127
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: it be you've said you've had patting attacks, I mean

1128
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: panic attacks. I had my first one at the start

1129
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: of this year. I thought I was having a heart attack.

1130
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,359
Speaker 1: Should you know, And I'm a nutritionist, I should have known.

1131
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: Oh shit, you're having a panic attack. Don't freagure out.

1132
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 1: I was holding myself against a wall because I thought

1133
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 1: I was going to fall down.

1134
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: It's terrifying. Oh they're literally panic, is you know? Terror?

1135
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, the first the first few ones I had,

1136
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: I would get what's called disassociation, which is often a

1137
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 2: common symptom of trauma. I've never been able to write

1138
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: if I any major trauma in my upbringing, but I

1139
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 2: have a lot of symptoms of sort of trauma which

1140
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: I've worked on over the years. And my symptoms was

1141
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 2: that I felt separate from my body. I felt like

1142
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 2: I wasn't inhabiting my body, that my body felt kind

1143
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: of foreign to be in and didn't sort of almost

1144
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 2: make sense, like certain movements felt like that my hands

1145
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 2: were moving at a different time to what my brains.

1146
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: They're moving very disturbing. So I became pretty convinced that

1147
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 2: I was starting to suffer from some sort of psychotic illness,

1148
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: you know, like a schizophrenia, bipolar. That's when finally I

1149
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 2: started getting some help and also started making big changes

1150
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: with my diet and lifestyle too, so the stuff that

1151
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,279
Speaker 2: I was learning through starting to become a natural path

1152
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 2: I started implementing more heavily, noticing some changes there. Then

1153
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 2: started working with a first a psychologist and then started

1154
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 2: seeing a counselor who I saw for many years who

1155
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 2: was incredibly helpful, getting me to understand what I was

1156
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 2: going through, understanding all the triggers that were creating these

1157
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,080
Speaker 2: sort of states within me. Also getting me to understand

1158
00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 2: some of the beliefs I had about myself that were

1159
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: then impacting on my ability to move forward in life

1160
00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: and do things, and this sense of fear of failure

1161
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,160
Speaker 2: as well, that if I can't do that, because I

1162
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 2: that's just not something I could do. So a good

1163
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 2: example was at the time I was working in some

1164
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 2: healthford stores in the city and I've been off at

1165
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 2: a management position, and I was like, oh, I can't

1166
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 2: do that. I'm not a leader. I'm not an assertive

1167
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 2: enough person. I can't tell I was working with these

1168
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: big bodybuilder guys who some of them were quite intimidating

1169
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 2: and stuff, and I was younger than a lot of them.

1170
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I can't be in charge of them.

1171
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 2: You know, you know, they'll think I'm just an idiot.

1172
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 2: They're not going to take me seriously. And it was

1173
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 2: through that process of working with this therapist we sort

1174
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 2: of unpack some of those beliefs, and through therapy you

1175
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 2: can do little experiments with yourself. Okay, well maybe this

1176
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 2: week just try asking you know that person to you know,

1177
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 2: put away the stock a bit quicker or whatever the

1178
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 2: case might have been that it was.

1179
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: And I you'd be good at this. Now you manage Oh.

1180
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 2: I have no problem now, I was going to say.

1181
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,920
Speaker 1: And then I also, as you were describing those things

1182
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,320
Speaker 1: about asking, I mean that's that self like relating it

1183
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 1: to yourself. I was like, oh, I could totally put

1184
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: someone in their place, yes, but then I have a

1185
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: little bit more bitchiness in me than say.

1186
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 2: You well, and assertiveness and you know your own boundaries

1187
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 2: Like I also, I would have No, I had no

1188
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 2: fear at that time about asserting myself in terms of

1189
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 2: the knowledge I had. I would you know, if I

1190
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: if I'm at a seminar or whatever, I'll put my

1191
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: hand up and ask a difficult question of the person

1192
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 2: who might be hosting the semen doesn't bother me at all.

1193
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: By the time I got around to doing my second

1194
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: degree in counseling, I was the cliched mature age student

1195
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 2: like I'm up the front, asking questions, sharing anad. I

1196
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 2: couldn't give a fuck, like I'm here to learn. But

1197
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: in those situations I had to face that fear of

1198
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,919
Speaker 2: failure that you know. I was like, well, unless I'm

1199
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 2: like the best manager and getting the best like store

1200
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 2: results and stuff like that and all stuff, I actually

1201
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 2: didn't give a shit about either, Like I didn't want

1202
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 2: to be the best manager. I wanted to be a

1203
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 2: really great practitioner. I was just managing a helpful store

1204
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 2: at the time because I needed to pay the bills.

1205
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 2: So unpacking all of that and realizing you can just

1206
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 2: do something chat and just be average at it, and

1207
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: that's totally okay because you are a human being and

1208
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,680
Speaker 2: some things you're going to be average out, so unpacking

1209
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: that perfectionism and stuff was a big part of me

1210
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 2: facing fear of our failure in that context.

1211
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: And I also think it's okay to keep your big

1212
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 1: picture goal and then be doing little things along the

1213
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,640
Speaker 1: way that may not be your end goal, but they're

1214
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 1: helping you pay the bills. I'm very pro I remember

1215
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: I got an audition in LA and I was like, shit,

1216
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: I can't pay for their flights. And so my friend

1217
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: had a cleaning business. So I literally leave TV.

1218
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: Just about to mention my full.

1219
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: Face makeup backpack on. And then there was a few

1220
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: of us that were working cleaning company and we'd send

1221
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: photos of the worst pubes we'd find into a toilet

1222
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: box like so. But then I think I'm lucky that

1223
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: I love that I've had that, because I don't think

1224
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: I'll ever get to a sagehere I get too big

1225
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: for my I just don't. I think also having a

1226
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 1: therapist makes you very clear about, like being very aware

1227
00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 1: where your egos at. One more thing. I know we're

1228
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 1: getting close to really close to time, but I want

1229
00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: to ask one more thing, and I think we've probably

1230
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: both experienced it, and I think there is a misconception

1231
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: that health practitioners are perfect, like perfectly healthy, and the

1232
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:16,920
Speaker 1: first thing I do when I get up on stage,

1233
00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 1: I'm like, guys, I fuck up my eating like I

1234
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 1: can polish off giant caramelo koala, which is better than

1235
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: the mini ones, no props, and maybe three more after that.

1236
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: Like I know that sounds like a really unhealthy thing,

1237
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:32,680
Speaker 1: but like the reality is we all fuck up and

1238
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: we all stuff up and we're not perfect. Or I

1239
00:59:34,720 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 1: can have days where although I'm working on my mental health,

1240
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: where I'm really shit at my mental health looking after it,

1241
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: and I think there's this movement and I think social

1242
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: media or on Instagram make it worse, which is half

1243
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: the reason why this podcast is about failure. There is

1244
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,840
Speaker 1: this weird misconception that people in the health industry a

1245
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 1: seemingly have a perfect diet, have perfect mental health and

1246
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: got their shit together.

1247
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: Do they one hundred percent? No? I mean, like not

1248
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 2: at all, and we're all guilty of it. And it

1249
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 2: is hard to come away with because people also want

1250
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 2: to look at your social media and get sort of inspiration,

1251
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 2: So it's hard to sometimes also be completely honest because

1252
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:18,200
Speaker 2: you kind of want to show some of the good

1253
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,200
Speaker 2: things that you're doing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

1254
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 2: It's the same as on our personal social media and

1255
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 2: our Facebook and stuff. We're showering all the holiday snaps.

1256
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,240
Speaker 2: I'm not taking a selfie of me, you know, laying

1257
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 2: in bed one day feeling really depressed and sorry for myself.

1258
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 2: Some people do do that, you know.

1259
01:00:33,520 --> 01:00:35,959
Speaker 1: Well, instrot is generally a highlight reel. That's what gets

1260
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:37,919
Speaker 1: the like seven that I've just taken the lights relate

1261
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: in Australia, but that's what gets the good engagement. And

1262
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: I understand that. But I think a highlight reel only,

1263
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:47,200
Speaker 1: like only showing a highlight reel can be detrimental to

1264
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: I think mental health on like as a consumer of

1265
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: that information, because it becomes very hard to relate to

1266
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,760
Speaker 1: because you're like, do these people never have a bad day?

1267
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,800
Speaker 1: To these people never eat anything other than lettuce, like

1268
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 1: you know, like, I think it makes it extremely hard

1269
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: to just only show this kind of like fake perfect yeah,

1270
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: perfect teeth veneers kind of kind of world. It's like,

1271
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: only you knew they had little piggies underneath those perfect veneers.

1272
01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:17,240
Speaker 1: What they have to do to put veniers on? Do

1273
01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about when I say vaniez, yeah,

1274
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: they file your tooth down to a peg like a

1275
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 1: little toothpick.

1276
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:23,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1277
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:26,400
Speaker 1: Wow, it's sorry. I don't know why said that. I

1278
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: was taking my best my Andrea made on the Gold

1279
01:01:29,280 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: Coast and I was like, so if you thought about

1280
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 1: vaneers and I was like, not really, I had braces

1281
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:35,959
Speaker 1: as a kid, and she's like, I was thinking about

1282
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: it until I found out about the pegs and I

1283
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 1: was like, what are the pegs? And she's like, I'm

1284
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: googling it and she's showing me these photos, like your

1285
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: actual truth has to get filed down to about a

1286
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: third of its size. Science. That's a very spad side.

1287
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting talking about all this sort of stuff

1288
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 2: and the impact of social media where we are seeing

1289
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: these highlight reels of people's lives and imagining that that's

1290
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 2: what their lives are all about. When it's completely not

1291
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 2: and we sort of see people in peak condition and

1292
01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 2: not all of the build up to getting there or

1293
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,919
Speaker 2: the times where they've not been in that state. Then

1294
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,560
Speaker 2: it's also worth talking about. In the seventies and eighties,

1295
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 2: there was this big push for self esteem training through

1296
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 2: schools and whatnot. There was this big emphasis that if

1297
01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: people have healthy self esteem, that's linked to things like

1298
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 2: less risk of depression, more optimism, better achievement at jobs,

1299
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:29,680
Speaker 2: and whatnot. However, self esteem training had an unintended consequence

1300
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 2: of increasing traits of narcissism. So self esteem rests a

1301
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 2: lot on a belief about what we're good at, and

1302
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 2: what we're good at is normally in relationship to others,

1303
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 2: So it's a comparative state. It's about, oh, I'm the

1304
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: best at this, and I remember in high school times,

1305
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 2: we'd be like, as a bonding exercise in year seven

1306
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,040
Speaker 2: or whatever, it'd be like, what are you the best at?

1307
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 2: What are you really good at? Wow? And I'd be like,

1308
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 2: I can wiggle my ears.

1309
01:02:57,880 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, he can. He just did it.

1310
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: Around you be jealous. And the basis of that still

1311
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,440
Speaker 2: is this comparative sort of thing. And the thing in

1312
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 2: a world with billions of people, you're never going to

1313
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 2: be the best. There's always going to be someone who's

1314
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 2: going to be better at you at a million different things.

1315
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,800
Speaker 2: So self esteem is like really hinged on maintaining this

1316
01:03:18,960 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: idea that I'm really good at this, and that I'm

1317
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,360
Speaker 2: better at someone than that. And I'm successful at this,

1318
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 2: and it has its unintended consequences of increasing narcissistic tendencies,

1319
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,439
Speaker 2: these sorts of you know, feeling like, you know, you're

1320
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,440
Speaker 2: isolated from everyone else and uniquely gifted and better when

1321
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 2: you're not, and also huge amount of self criticism and

1322
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: anxiety about failure. Well if I lose this career title

1323
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 2: and I step down on not because I'm no longer

1324
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:48,480
Speaker 2: good even though this career is killing me and I'm

1325
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: too stressed out and whatnot. So the combination of the

1326
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: new world of social media, this self esteem training has

1327
01:03:56,080 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 2: created this sort of train wreck. Groo, We've got this

1328
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 2: huge amount of anxiety, depression and people constantly comparing to

1329
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 2: themselves and not even understanding how to relate to themselves

1330
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:07,200
Speaker 2: in a way that's just about them.

1331
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: And time high at the moment.

1332
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so narcissism as a personality traits increased in the community.

1333
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 2: But possibly not just as a direct result of self

1334
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 2: esteem training. Of course, it's multitude of factors that might

1335
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,720
Speaker 2: have contributed towards that. And the interesting thing that self

1336
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 2: compassion is a personality trait which can be developed also

1337
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: is associated with all of the same positives of self esteem, training,

1338
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 2: less risk of depression, greater resilience, better ability to stick

1339
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 2: to goals, improved work performance, better relationships, etc. However, it

1340
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 2: does not correlate with the trait of narcissism because an

1341
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 2: important part of self compassion is recognizing our common humanity,

1342
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 2: recognizing I'm a human too, I fail at times as

1343
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 2: well other people. I could be them as well if

1344
01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 2: circumstances were different. It recognizes the shared links that we

1345
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 2: all have and that there's a lot of circumstances beyond

1346
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 2: our control that create the state that we're in and

1347
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 2: the state another person is in. And then rather than

1348
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,280
Speaker 2: relating to our failures as that I'm not good enough,

1349
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,959
Speaker 2: as oh, I'm suffering right now, how can I help

1350
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 2: myself in that moment of suffering? So we lift ourselves

1351
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 2: up rather than putting ourselves down.

1352
01:05:16,720 --> 01:05:18,040
Speaker 1: It feels a lot more holistic.

1353
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: It is. Yeah, Yeah, it's a lot more holistic. And

1354
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:25,760
Speaker 2: I guess we've gone through a neoliberal sort of philosophy

1355
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,520
Speaker 2: that's created liberal I won't explain it because I won't

1356
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 2: explain it properly, but we've gone through this very individualistic

1357
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 2: kind of culture and this set of this belief that

1358
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 2: anyone can be the best at anything and if you

1359
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 2: just try hard enough, you'll succeed in life, which is

1360
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 2: true to a degree. You've got to be passionate, you've

1361
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 2: got to be purposeful, you've got to utilize, you know,

1362
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 2: grab opportunities. But no, not everyone's going to be a

1363
01:05:48,840 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 2: fucking astronaut. Not everyone's going to be an Olympic athlete.

1364
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,120
Speaker 2: There's going to be things that will limit you along

1365
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: the way. And that's okay, there's nothing actually wrong with that.

1366
01:05:57,040 --> 01:06:00,000
Speaker 2: And you know, society and all sorts of other influence

1367
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: and will influence where you kind of get at and

1368
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,800
Speaker 2: relating to yourself in a way that's not comparing yourself

1369
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: to the global average, but instead comparing yourself to the

1370
01:06:08,600 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 2: fact that I'm a human being. What's good for me,

1371
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 2: what's going to make my life meaningful, purposeful, enjoyable, what's

1372
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 2: going to help me connect to others, what's going to

1373
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 2: make me able to cope with life ups and downs?

1374
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 2: Is a much healthier way of relating to you know,

1375
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 2: purpose and drive and whatnot.

1376
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,439
Speaker 1: And I think also there's a word in yoga called

1377
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,920
Speaker 1: dharma to live purpose, and I think I always think that,

1378
01:06:34,040 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 1: like and you can see like a lot of people

1379
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: don't live to purpose because it's scary and the fear

1380
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,480
Speaker 1: of failure are unsafe, and I should do what my

1381
01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: parents think I should do, and all those kind of things.

1382
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:46,560
Speaker 1: But I think if we can get this height, like this,

1383
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: this kind of like mindful present, self worth, self compassion,

1384
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: self love, all of this kind of right, then you're

1385
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:55,360
Speaker 1: going to start marching to the beat of your own

1386
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: drum in a non parcissistic way, hopefully. I remember you

1387
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: told me the order in which the people are most

1388
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 1: self confident, and straight women are at the bottom of

1389
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:11,760
Speaker 1: that list. I think the top was straight males, then

1390
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 1: became lesbians, then came gay males, and then came straight women.

1391
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 1: I remember, do you remember you telling me that?

1392
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there were some studies on that to do

1393
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 2: with self esteem. It was to do with pretty fascinating

1394
01:07:25,880 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 2: because it's about raiding yourself against other people. And you know,

1395
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 2: we won't get into the politics available, but we do

1396
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 2: live in a world that has historically been patriarchal or straight, focus,

1397
01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 2: cera normative. All of those sorts of factors play a

1398
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:43,720
Speaker 2: big role in shaping us as people. And then if

1399
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:46,920
Speaker 2: we know that our self beliefs also then predict our

1400
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:49,919
Speaker 2: likelihood at success in certain things. If we're starting off

1401
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,480
Speaker 2: with an ingrained self belief based on the group from

1402
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: which we come from, that could be limiting. Again where

1403
01:07:57,040 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 2: therapy comes into it and any kind of self development stuff.

1404
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 2: When we can start to recognize some of these beliefs

1405
01:08:02,120 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 2: and patterns we have, we can also make different choices

1406
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 2: in relationship to that. We can also forgive ourselves to

1407
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 2: not being ahead. Oh actually I started off a little

1408
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:14,200
Speaker 2: bit behind the rest of the team in the rat race,

1409
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 2: so it's going to take me a while to get further,

1410
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,839
Speaker 2: and I might not ever reach them. But the focus

1411
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:23,000
Speaker 2: is then on your own inner progress rather than where

1412
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 2: I am in relationship to others as long as of

1413
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,120
Speaker 2: social status scale and stuff.

1414
01:08:27,160 --> 01:08:28,640
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you got to, you got to. You got

1415
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: to run your own race. My last thing is what

1416
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: what do you want to leave people with? Like what

1417
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 1: is your nugget? What is your Like, say, someone's just

1418
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:41,040
Speaker 1: like puck in the shit at the moment, and you

1419
01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: know it feels a little bit maybe helpless and not

1420
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 1: in a just just in that kind of like you

1421
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: know when you get stuck in that like you know

1422
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,920
Speaker 1: that melancholy like stuck.

1423
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 2: So I guess what I've really discovered in the last

1424
01:08:56,400 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 2: few years is if there's any sort of concept of

1425
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 2: a legacy that I think, I believe it's the compassion

1426
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 2: is a superpower and it has the potential to save

1427
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,760
Speaker 2: the world. I love it, and I think if you're

1428
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: struggling in a moment, the first thing you need to

1429
01:09:10,400 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: do is first turn toward it, try not to run

1430
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 2: away from it. Recognize how am I struggling right now?

1431
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 2: What is my experience of this struggle, and gently labeling

1432
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,439
Speaker 2: that being honest with yourself. Actually, right now I've hit

1433
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 2: rock bottom, or actually, right now, things are not like

1434
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 2: I want them to be, and I'm hurting. So that's

1435
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,280
Speaker 2: mindfulness turning towards sitting in the shit, sitting in the shit,

1436
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,599
Speaker 2: turning towards it and just acknowledging the reality of it,

1437
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,680
Speaker 2: not in a self pitying way, but in an honest appraisal.

1438
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 2: Actually things are really tough right now. Then bringing in

1439
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,679
Speaker 2: a sense of common humanity. Okay, it's human to suffer

1440
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,560
Speaker 2: at times. I'm actually connected to other people around the

1441
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 2: world right now who are suffering just like me. I'm

1442
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 2: not alone. I'm also not special because I'm suffering. There's

1443
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 2: not something uniquely bad about me. It's not shameful for

1444
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 2: me to be suffering unique in that sense. Other people

1445
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 2: suffer just like me, so common humanity. Then the most

1446
01:10:04,800 --> 01:10:08,599
Speaker 2: important little lighting on the cake some self compassion. If

1447
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 2: someone else was suffering just like you in that moment,

1448
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,840
Speaker 2: what would you say to them? What tone of voice

1449
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 2: would you use? What physical gestures might you offer them?

1450
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 2: If someone who loved about you very much saw you

1451
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,800
Speaker 2: were suffering in that moment, what words would they use,

1452
01:10:26,439 --> 01:10:29,759
Speaker 2: what tone of voice would they use, what physical gestures

1453
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,160
Speaker 2: would they offer? You get that felt sense of what

1454
01:10:33,160 --> 01:10:35,720
Speaker 2: it feels like to offer compassion to someone else, to

1455
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:39,280
Speaker 2: receive compassion from someone who cares about you, and then

1456
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,599
Speaker 2: see if you can offer that to yourself. Give yourself

1457
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 2: some kind words, give yourself a little rub on the

1458
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,560
Speaker 2: shoulder or even a little squeeze or you know, a

1459
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 2: rub on the heart or something like that.

1460
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:52,439
Speaker 1: Because you talked last time about the power of touch.

1461
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 2: Didn't you exactly? Yeah, And that's a huge part of

1462
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 2: self compassion training is exploring physical touch and how that

1463
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 2: can be soothing and doesn't work for everyone, depending on

1464
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,400
Speaker 2: history and stuff and tone of voice often when we

1465
01:11:05,439 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 2: sort of we recognize I'm down in the dumpsum feeling bad.

1466
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:11,559
Speaker 2: I should motivate myself. I'll get up, you know, get

1467
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 2: up your lazy sod. You know, you should just be

1468
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 2: doing something good of itself.

1469
01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 1: You just age yourself. Then my friend up.

1470
01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 2: Lazie versus like, Hey, you're struggling right now, Like maybe

1471
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,479
Speaker 2: if you get out there and just get some fresh air,

1472
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:27,880
Speaker 2: you'll feel a bit better. You know, maybe just just

1473
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 2: try just getting out of bed and making yourself a

1474
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 2: cup of tea and just you know, it's a tone

1475
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 2: of voice is just as important as the words you're using.

1476
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 1: Is there any moment where you're like, you know, when

1477
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:39,160
Speaker 1: you're in a funk, what where you've just kind of

1478
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 1: talked us through. But I think also for me going

1479
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily going to feel like this in three

1480
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,800
Speaker 1: days time. When you're in it, you're like, oh my god,

1481
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 1: it's the end of the world. I'm going to feel

1482
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:50,680
Speaker 1: horrible and live off caramel like will as for the

1483
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 1: rest of my life. Like the way you are in

1484
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:56,799
Speaker 1: that moment is you're feeling something. You know, you're feeling

1485
01:11:56,920 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 1: like crap. But that doesn't mean that that's going to

1486
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 1: be the rest of your life.

1487
01:12:01,320 --> 01:12:04,360
Speaker 2: And that's an important component of the self compassion practice

1488
01:12:04,400 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 2: is mindfulness is acknowledging here's the present moment, but it

1489
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 2: forms part of a whole bunch of other factors that

1490
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:12,200
Speaker 2: led up to that moment and that are going to

1491
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 2: lead out of that moment. Everything changes, nothing is permanent,

1492
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 2: nothing stays the same. So recognizing that this is a

1493
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,400
Speaker 2: feeling right now, and if I stay with this feeling,

1494
01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,560
Speaker 2: even for a few seconds, it's going to change in intensity.

1495
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 2: It might build an intensity, it get worse, that might

1496
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 2: drop off in intensity. Other feelings might come into play.

1497
01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 2: I might suddenly be distracted by a feeling of needing

1498
01:12:32,120 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 2: the toilet or feeling hungry. Like. When we stay present

1499
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 2: with it, we stop getting into this storyline that says

1500
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:39,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to be like this forever. I'm going to

1501
01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:42,160
Speaker 2: feel like a failure forever. I'm going to feel bad forever,

1502
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:46,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to feel like a loser forever. We start recognizing, actually,

1503
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 2: this is just a feeling. It's just a transient phenomena

1504
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 2: that I'm experiencing. Stay with it for a bit, remind

1505
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:55,560
Speaker 2: ourselves that it's human to feel that that life involves

1506
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 2: ups and downs, in fact, quite a lot of downs

1507
01:12:57,600 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 2: and that's okay. And then building that sense of common humanity,

1508
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 2: reminding ourselves were human for having that, and offering ourselves

1509
01:13:05,760 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 2: whatever kindness we need in that moment. And the kindness

1510
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:10,200
Speaker 2: might just be like, you know what, you're having a

1511
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,559
Speaker 2: really hard day. I think you do need to just

1512
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:15,120
Speaker 2: stay at home and take care of yourself. I think

1513
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 2: you do need to call a friend. I think you

1514
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 2: do need a book in with a therapist. It's time.

1515
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 2: That can be a really caring thing to do, or

1516
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:24,600
Speaker 2: it could be the motivating yang kind of fact that like,

1517
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:27,280
Speaker 2: you need to protect yourself against the dickheads in your

1518
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 2: life that are you know, are impacting on you in

1519
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,680
Speaker 2: a negative way. Or you need to motivate yourself to

1520
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 2: get up and do something different, or you need to

1521
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 2: or you need to provide yourself with something that's important.

1522
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: You know, you need to fuel yourself with better food,

1523
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 2: or you need to you know, you need to get

1524
01:13:44,520 --> 01:13:46,080
Speaker 2: a better job, or whatever it is you need to

1525
01:13:46,160 --> 01:13:49,080
Speaker 2: change your situation. That's the Yang side of compassion.

1526
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:51,400
Speaker 1: Do you know what my trick is? Every time I'm

1527
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: like God, I just need to. I'll watch bloopers. Yeah,

1528
01:13:56,880 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: I've done for years.

1529
01:13:58,080 --> 01:13:59,639
Speaker 2: Well, so I'll go home and I'll.

1530
01:13:59,520 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 1: Watch like Will Farrell bloopers or like someone that I

1531
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:07,920
Speaker 1: love bloopers one shows me they're human. Two it's hilarious

1532
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:10,840
Speaker 1: and normally they laugh at themselves and it's so much

1533
01:14:10,840 --> 01:14:13,759
Speaker 1: fun to watch other humans laugh, and I guess enjoy

1534
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: and it normally will snap. It'll be enough to kind

1535
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 1: of like snap me out of it. And also, because

1536
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,559
Speaker 1: I love filming and acting and things like that, I'm

1537
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,479
Speaker 1: watching someone live their truth that I and their dama,

1538
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:26,880
Speaker 1: which for me, I can associate with, Oh, that's something

1539
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:28,840
Speaker 1: I want to do one day. And so I find

1540
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: that really inspiring. And then that kind of pulls me

1541
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: out that little funk. And I don't know if it's

1542
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: like a coping mechanism, but it's always been quite nice.

1543
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:39,680
Speaker 1: I watched with Steve rwen Docco like these things that

1544
01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:45,799
Speaker 1: to me I associate, I associate with authentic, unapologetic passion.

1545
01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: I love that, and I think that's kind of something

1546
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,400
Speaker 1: I bring, and so when I see that in others,

1547
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 1: I'm very inspired. Yeah.

1548
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 2: Well, it's a perfect example of your reminding yourself of

1549
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 2: your common humanity instead of recognizing, oh, here's someone really

1550
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 2: successful and they're doing all these bloopers. They make mistakes too,

1551
01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 2: so it's okay if I make mistakes, and it's actually

1552
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:06,559
Speaker 2: mistakes kind of funny in the scheme of things, like

1553
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 2: they're surprising because we're going ahead thinking we're doing the

1554
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 2: right thing, and then bang, reality smacks you in the face,

1555
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:14,040
Speaker 2: and you know, it's just like funniest home videos when

1556
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 2: you you know, some of the waterskiing and then they

1557
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 2: flip over and hit into a wall, like hilarious.

1558
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:23,880
Speaker 1: So hilarious, so hilarious. You have just blown me away.

1559
01:15:24,040 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 1: And it's been such an honor to have you on

1560
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:30,160
Speaker 1: this podcast. I actually think that you could totally have

1561
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: your own Mindfulness and Compassion podcast. One day talked mad about.

1562
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:39,719
Speaker 2: That or fear of failure, fear of failure in my head.

1563
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:43,160
Speaker 1: But also yeah, but and that was my lasts I know,

1564
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 1: I keep saying this is my last things. I just

1565
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:48,360
Speaker 1: could talk to you all day. What is your duma?

1566
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 1: Or you're living what you love right now? But where

1567
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 1: is jad in five years time? I don't know. This

1568
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 1: freaks out when I ask is and he's like eyes

1569
01:15:54,640 --> 01:15:56,800
Speaker 1: of wide and whereas I like love these questions I

1570
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: want like if nothing else mattered, like if if you

1571
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:04,519
Speaker 1: could do anything and be anywhere, or like and I

1572
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,599
Speaker 1: know you love your beautiful pooges and all that something

1573
01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: about being somewhere else, but like if you had there

1574
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:12,560
Speaker 1: was no chance. Like One of my favorite words is

1575
01:16:12,680 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 1: number layer, which is an indigenous Australian word that means

1576
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,920
Speaker 1: to live free of fear. I talk about a lot.

1577
01:16:18,160 --> 01:16:21,680
Speaker 1: My therapist taught me that word. And what would you

1578
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:24,800
Speaker 1: do if you were living in that sense of number layer?

1579
01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:29,799
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I'm going through a huge soul searching

1580
01:16:29,880 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 2: period at the moment, because I've recently gone through a

1581
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 2: huge breakup and going through a bit of a you

1582
01:16:34,439 --> 01:16:37,679
Speaker 2: know the cliches sort of midlife crisis, really reevaluating things.

1583
01:16:37,800 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 1: He's very young, by the way.

1584
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:45,759
Speaker 2: Is there's two things. The passion I want to experience

1585
01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:47,720
Speaker 2: in the next five years would be I want to

1586
01:16:47,760 --> 01:16:50,000
Speaker 2: travel a lot more. So that's that sort of on

1587
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:52,559
Speaker 2: That's a massive agenda. How can I manufacture a life

1588
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:54,960
Speaker 2: where I can do a lot more traveling in terms

1589
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 2: of like career and personal sort of legacy. It is

1590
01:16:58,400 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 2: about teaching the skills of compassion and mindfulness, and you.

1591
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,479
Speaker 1: Know you can do that anywhere you are. Jetz, this

1592
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 1: is your travel the world.

1593
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:06,960
Speaker 2: I could be running like an online program or something

1594
01:17:07,560 --> 01:17:10,960
Speaker 2: teaching workshops and stuff. I absolutely love every time I

1595
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 2: teach a class or work with a client on these things.

1596
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 2: Even if I'm having a terrible day, I don't want

1597
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:17,240
Speaker 2: to get out of bed. I really don't feel like

1598
01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:19,920
Speaker 2: working today. Bang, as soon as I click in with someone,

1599
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 2: I'm in that moment, my passions lit up and I'm

1600
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:27,479
Speaker 2: enjoying it. So I want more moments like that, more

1601
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:30,160
Speaker 2: moments of teaching these sorts of skills talking about it,

1602
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,360
Speaker 2: you know, like podcasts like this get me so excited,

1603
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 2: similar to a longe like I talk about this shit

1604
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,679
Speaker 2: all day long. But yeah, I also want to travel

1605
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 2: and see the world a lot more. And that's something

1606
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:42,160
Speaker 2: I think fear has stopped me from doing. And that's

1607
01:17:42,160 --> 01:17:44,720
Speaker 2: something I really want to move through. Is that is that,

1608
01:17:45,240 --> 01:17:48,280
Speaker 2: you know, recognizing that it doesn't Fear is just feeling.

1609
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop you actually from doing anything. And fear

1610
01:17:50,800 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 2: comes along for the journey with a lot of the

1611
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:53,880
Speaker 2: things you do in life. And that's okay. You've got

1612
01:17:53,880 --> 01:17:55,479
Speaker 2: to be friends with fear and failure.

1613
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:57,880
Speaker 1: I love that. Be friends with fear and failure. That

1614
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:01,440
Speaker 1: is the perfect ending to the podcast.

1615
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,639
Speaker 2: You're awesome, Thank you so much having me. You're awesome

1616
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:06,400
Speaker 2: as well. I've learned so much about.

1617
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 1: What a comelement. I've learned so much about failure.

1618
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 2: So much about picking myself up when I've fallen down from.

1619
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:19,200
Speaker 1: I just can't wait. So we've been friends, like close friends. Now,

1620
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:22,280
Speaker 1: i'd say, what ten years. I'm thirty three, I started

1621
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:23,840
Speaker 1: we have started working at about twenty three.

1622
01:18:24,560 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 2: Well we be brief refriended at paran the seven years?

1623
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,000
Speaker 1: Is that seven? Okay? So I look forward for the

1624
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: next like twenty years to watch our journeys. I'm bold,

1625
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 1: you're a legend. Yeah, make friends with fear and failure,

1626
01:18:40,000 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: all right, big love.

1627
01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 2: And it's okay if that lesson takes a while to learn.

1628
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:44,759
Speaker 2: I'm still learning that lesson.

1629
01:18:44,880 --> 01:18:50,440
Speaker 1: Oh same, we say fear. I'm just like, oh, but yeah,

1630
01:18:50,560 --> 01:18:53,799
Speaker 1: skydiving or like I've skydived and swam with whale sharks,

1631
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: and I remember whale sharks. You got to swim in

1632
01:18:56,160 --> 01:18:59,439
Speaker 1: three hundred met or deep water and I and you

1633
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,400
Speaker 1: just jump off the back of a boat in the

1634
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:04,519
Speaker 1: Maldives like off the grid. I remember my friend Andrea

1635
01:19:04,680 --> 01:19:08,160
Speaker 1: filmed at the moment and the chicks like, jump jump now,

1636
01:19:08,160 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: because you've got to chase the whale sharks. We can't

1637
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: get too close because the propellers of the boat are

1638
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:15,800
Speaker 1: quite dangerous for the whale sharks fins, and so you've

1639
01:19:15,800 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 1: got to get close enough, jump off the boat and

1640
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:19,320
Speaker 1: then swim for your life to get close to the

1641
01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:22,160
Speaker 1: whale shark. And I remember she's like she's some German chicken.

1642
01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:24,800
Speaker 1: She was like, dump, jump jump. I'm so aggressive too,

1643
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:27,160
Speaker 1: and I was like, Andrea's got on a film. I'm like,

1644
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:30,240
Speaker 1: holy fuck. And then I just jump and swim and

1645
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:33,240
Speaker 1: like swallow so much water, and I just think, in

1646
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 1: that moment, nothing else is mad at except for seeing

1647
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 1: these majestic creatures and shitting myself at the same time.

1648
01:19:38,960 --> 01:19:41,679
Speaker 1: Do things that get you outside your comfort zone. Feel

1649
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 1: that fear. It is so empowering as well. Absolutely make

1650
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: friends with fear and failure. Jad, You're friggin amazing and yeah,

1651
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:51,800
Speaker 1: I just can't wait to see what's next for you.

1652
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 1: Big love.

1653
01:19:53,479 --> 01:20:00,640
Speaker 2: Thanks Thieves fo