WEBVTT - Taxi drivers' $272 million win over Uber

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<v Speaker 1>Already and this is the daily.

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<v Speaker 2>This is the daily, This is the daily. Ohs oh,

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<v Speaker 2>now it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning and welcome to the Daily Os. It's Wednesday,

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<v Speaker 1>the twentieth of March.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sam, I'm emma.

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<v Speaker 3>And this week the taxi industry reached a landmark settlement

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<v Speaker 3>with Uber.

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<v Speaker 2>Uber will hand rival Cabby.

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<v Speaker 3>Is one of the biggest compensation payouts in Australian history.

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<v Speaker 3>The tax industry was decimated through the illegal proceedings of Uber,

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<v Speaker 3>and today it can go down as a win. The

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<v Speaker 3>ride sharing giant has agreed to pay two hundred and

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<v Speaker 3>seventy two million dollars in compensation after a five year

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<v Speaker 3>legal battle with taxi and higher car operators. Will unpack

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<v Speaker 3>the case against Uber and the historic deal in today's

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<v Speaker 3>deep dive. But first Sam, what's making headlines.

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<v Speaker 1>The Reserve Bank has left interest rates on hold at

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<v Speaker 1>four point three five percent. This is the third RBA

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<v Speaker 1>decision in a row where the cash rate has stayed

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<v Speaker 1>the same, after interest rates rows for ten consecutive months

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<v Speaker 1>over twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three. In a statement,

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<v Speaker 1>the RBA said it's encouraged by easing inflation or rising prices. However,

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<v Speaker 1>it added that other parts of the economy remain quote

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<v Speaker 1>highly uncertain.

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<v Speaker 3>Australia's environment scorecard went down in twenty twenty three. According

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<v Speaker 3>to the latest annual report by the Australian National University,

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<v Speaker 3>Australia scored seven point five out of ten for twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty three, down from eight point seven the year before.

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<v Speaker 3>The score combines data on the state of the country's weather,

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<v Speaker 3>water and vegetation. The report mentioned that one hundred and

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<v Speaker 3>thirty species were added to the Threatened Species list in

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty three. It also noted that greenhouse gas emissions

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<v Speaker 3>increased for the first time in five years last year,

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<v Speaker 3>mostly due to the increase in air travel after COVID nineteen.

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<v Speaker 1>The Victorian government is being encouraged to introduce pill testing

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<v Speaker 1>by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. It comes

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<v Speaker 1>after last week the Coroner's Court of Victoria found the

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<v Speaker 1>deaths of two men were a result of mixed high

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<v Speaker 1>dose drugs that the men may not have known they

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<v Speaker 1>were taking. The Coroner's Court also recommended that Victoria trial

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<v Speaker 1>a pill testing service similar to the one in the Act.

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<v Speaker 1>The chair of the College of General practitioners said, let's

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<v Speaker 1>do all we can to stop these pointless overdose deaths

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<v Speaker 1>from happening again and again.

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<v Speaker 2>And today's good news.

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<v Speaker 3>Two well known locations in the Byron Bay area of

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<v Speaker 3>New South Wales now have first nation's jewel names. Cape

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<v Speaker 3>Byron will now also have the name Wolgan and Julian

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<v Speaker 3>Rocks will also be called Nothing Gully. Walgan holds importance

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<v Speaker 3>to the aroquoal and Bungjalung people as the area is

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<v Speaker 3>used for gatherings and ceremonies. Nothing Gully is another significant

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<v Speaker 3>site with the traditional name used by the Aroqual people

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<v Speaker 3>meaning the father of the world. The New South Wales

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<v Speaker 3>government said the changes to the names were a nod

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<v Speaker 3>to the cultural significance of these sites.

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<v Speaker 1>So Uber was judi face court this week and they

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<v Speaker 1>were accused of operating unlawfully when it first launched in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>But those legal proceedings are now not going to go ahead.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you take me through the settlement?

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<v Speaker 2>That's right.

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<v Speaker 3>So after five years of legal proceedings, more than eight

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<v Speaker 3>thousand taxi and high car operators so that includes drivers,

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<v Speaker 3>business owners, they will receive a share of two hundred

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<v Speaker 3>and seventy two million dollars after reaching a historic settlement

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<v Speaker 3>with Uber.

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<v Speaker 2>It's the first time ever that Uber.

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<v Speaker 3>Has reached this kind of a deal with any taxi

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<v Speaker 3>industry anywhere, and it's it's one of the largest class

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<v Speaker 3>action settlements in Australian history.

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<v Speaker 1>So if we go back to the beginning of those

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<v Speaker 1>proceedings five years ago, what was the original accusation against Uber?

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<v Speaker 3>So, first of all, as I mentioned, this is a

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<v Speaker 3>class action and that's a type of lawsuit where many

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<v Speaker 3>people are represented by one entity. So in this case,

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<v Speaker 3>that entity is a legal firm called Maurice Blackburn. This

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<v Speaker 3>all started in twenty nineteen with one Cabby, a Victorian

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<v Speaker 3>taxi driver and his name is Nikos Adrianachis, and he

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<v Speaker 3>filed the proceeding against Uber in the Victorian Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 3>in twenty nineteen. Then Morris Blackburn got more than eight

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<v Speaker 3>thousand sign ups from other taxi drivers, other people working

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<v Speaker 3>in the taxi and higher car industry who wanted to be.

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<v Speaker 2>Part of this case.

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<v Speaker 1>So what was he arguing.

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<v Speaker 3>So the argument centered around that Uber launched its ride

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<v Speaker 3>sharing service uber x illegally in twenty fourteen, and this

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<v Speaker 3>was in four states, so Victoria, New South Wales, Queensland

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<v Speaker 3>and WA and this Victorian taxi driver along with the

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<v Speaker 3>eight thousand signups and Morris Blackburn claimed that Uber's aggressive

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<v Speaker 3>and illegal launch in Australia caused direct financial losses for

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<v Speaker 3>taxi and higher car workers.

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<v Speaker 2>So the class action was brought for.

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<v Speaker 3>These people to seek compensation from Uber for those damages

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<v Speaker 3>incurred by its unlawful operations.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so it's twenty nineteen, a class action is launched.

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<v Speaker 1>We've got thousands of taxi drivers and higher car drivers

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<v Speaker 1>claiming that they've lost money because Uber is now in

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<v Speaker 1>the country. I want to go a little deeper on

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<v Speaker 1>this idea of Uber operating, in their words, unlawfully, because

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<v Speaker 1>I think there is a difference between a new competitor

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<v Speaker 1>entering the transport market and that player then acting anti

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<v Speaker 1>competitively or behaving unfairly exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's not illegal for competition in a market. And

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<v Speaker 3>Uber is such a giant in twenty twenty four, it's

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<v Speaker 3>sort of hard to think about this time when they

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<v Speaker 3>were kind of the new guy, uncharted territory and especially

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<v Speaker 3>exactly a startup, and when we think of how it's expanded,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, into our day to day lives in twenty

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<v Speaker 3>twenty four, Uberpool, Uber eats. But when Uber came to Australia,

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<v Speaker 3>ride sharing was virtually unheard of. So you know, you

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<v Speaker 3>might have had to mate that went on a trip

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<v Speaker 3>to the US and spoke about getting an Uber or

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<v Speaker 3>a Lyft, but in Australia we had nothing like it.

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<v Speaker 3>And then that is compared to a very tightly regulated

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<v Speaker 3>taxi industry.

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<v Speaker 1>So talk me through those regulations then, like why do

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<v Speaker 1>you say it's so tightly regulated.

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<v Speaker 3>So states and territories have their own regulations when it

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<v Speaker 3>comes to taxis and high car companies and they're categorized

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<v Speaker 3>as passenger transport services, but the regulations around them in

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<v Speaker 3>these states and territories are pretty uniform in terms of

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<v Speaker 3>special licenses that are needed, vehicle registration fees, standards for drivers,

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<v Speaker 3>accreditations that drivers have to meet, that.

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<v Speaker 1>Thing, right, So a heavily regulated space. And then if

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<v Speaker 1>we think back to more than a decade ago when

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<v Speaker 1>Uber was really establishing itself in the Australian market, it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't fall within those rules for passenger services and it

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<v Speaker 1>was basically unregulated.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah, So as you can imagine that really disrupted

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<v Speaker 3>the taxi industry, and I think a lot of listeners

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<v Speaker 3>will remember this time because you had companies and drivers

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<v Speaker 3>who were paying these huge fees for their licenses to

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<v Speaker 3>operate taxis in some states, you know, hundreds of thousands

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<v Speaker 3>of dollars a year for registrations.

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<v Speaker 2>And adhering to all these rules to operate.

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<v Speaker 3>But then when Uber rocks up, you know, anyone with

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<v Speaker 3>a car and a standard driver's license could hypothetically become

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<v Speaker 3>an Uber driver and start making money tomorrow. So the

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<v Speaker 3>main argument from this class action was that this wasn't

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<v Speaker 3>fair and that Uber needed to be regulated, and many

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<v Speaker 3>in the taxi industry wanted it to be subject to

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<v Speaker 3>the same regulations as taxis.

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<v Speaker 2>And higher cars.

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<v Speaker 1>And obviously now think have shifted in the ride share industry.

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<v Speaker 1>There are now standards and regulations that regulate how ride

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<v Speaker 1>sharing operates in Australia. But this class action centers on

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<v Speaker 1>the time before that, and that's when Maurics Blackburn is

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<v Speaker 1>arguing that its clients suffered that financial loss. So even

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<v Speaker 1>though Uber is a massive part of our lives now,

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<v Speaker 1>it is important to kind of place it in that

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<v Speaker 1>context of it's still being a real disruptor, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, which is why I wanted to use.

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<v Speaker 3>An example from twenty fifteen, and that was when there

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<v Speaker 3>was this government review into competition policy. So basically a

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<v Speaker 3>report that examined certain policies within industries to see if

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<v Speaker 3>they were being regulated fairly. Ride sharing, as you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 3>has completely transformed since then. But if we step back

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<v Speaker 3>in time a little, it does give us an idea

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<v Speaker 3>of the context that this class action came about in.

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<v Speaker 3>So it's twenty fifteen, We'll wearing skinny jeans. Mark Ronson

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<v Speaker 3>and Bruno Mars Uptown Funk is playing in every taxi

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<v Speaker 3>you get.

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<v Speaker 1>In I'm twenty one.

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<v Speaker 3>Paul Blatt Malkop two is in Cinemas Great Film. A

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<v Speaker 3>government report says that the taxi industry is heavily regulated,

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<v Speaker 3>and it gives examples of things like restricting taxi numbers

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<v Speaker 3>in each state where you have to have a license

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<v Speaker 3>to have a taxi, but each state has limits on

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<v Speaker 3>how many licenses it will issue, so that caps the

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<v Speaker 3>amount of cabs that can be in the market to

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<v Speaker 3>service customers. At that time, they said there's a scarcity

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<v Speaker 3>of taxi licenses, as mentioned, some that cost four hundred

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<v Speaker 3>thousand dollars a year, three hundred thousand dollars a year,

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<v Speaker 3>rules that taxis have to operate three hundred and sixty

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<v Speaker 3>five days a year, that they must accept all reasonable requests,

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<v Speaker 3>and that they must have meters which set fares, and

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<v Speaker 3>they automate tariffs at certain times and on public holidays.

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<v Speaker 1>How did Uber respond to that anger in the early days.

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<v Speaker 3>In those early days, they pretty much pushed back against

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<v Speaker 3>all of these calls for regulations and said that they

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<v Speaker 3>were outdated and that states and territories were sort of

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<v Speaker 3>trying to force it using these old fashioned ideas about

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<v Speaker 3>what passenger services could be. And I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>that's kind of a rhetoric we've seen in the gig

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<v Speaker 3>economy all over that you know, there's this old world

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<v Speaker 3>meets the new world, and how do we adapt to that.

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<v Speaker 3>But this twenty fifteen review noted that taxis were being

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<v Speaker 3>disrupted by tech changes, including you know, digital booking apps

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<v Speaker 3>and of course ride sharing. At that time, the Taxi

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<v Speaker 3>Council in Queensland said that taxis and ride sharing were

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<v Speaker 3>substitutable and should therefore be subject to the same rules.

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<v Speaker 3>But Uber argued, and I think this tells US a

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<v Speaker 3>bit more about why it took maybe five years to.

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<v Speaker 2>Reach this decision.

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<v Speaker 3>In the class action, it argued that ride sharing does

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<v Speaker 3>compete with taxis, but that it's not offering taxi services.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, what do you mean by that? Like, that's an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting distinction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep.

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<v Speaker 3>So ubers are not traditional caps, right, but specifically what

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<v Speaker 3>differentiates them from taxis and higher cars? And this is

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<v Speaker 3>according to Uber's direction d of Public Policy in twenty fifteen.

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<v Speaker 3>The fundamental differences between taxis and ride sharing are things

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<v Speaker 3>like ride sharing doesn't accept anonymous rides. You can't hail

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<v Speaker 3>an Uber in the street. Ride sharing services don't accept

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<v Speaker 3>any cash.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all digital, it's all in app.

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<v Speaker 3>Ride sharing doesn't have ranks, and ride sharing services are

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<v Speaker 3>on demand, so the user is empowered to open their

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<v Speaker 3>app and to book the service when they want, rather

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<v Speaker 3>than trying to seek a taxi out on the street.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, got it. And then we got to twenty nineteen.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly, And that's when Morris Blackman filed this class action

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<v Speaker 3>arguing that Uber and its vehicles and its drivers were

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<v Speaker 3>able to operate illegally without the proper licenses and accreditations,

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<v Speaker 3>undercutting the taxi industry leading to loss of income.

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<v Speaker 1>And so fast forward a couple of years, and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sure many, many, many legal bills and Uber and the

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<v Speaker 1>taxis have come to the table and reached a deal.

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<v Speaker 1>But this class action did take a while to get here.

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<v Speaker 1>Do we have a sense of why it took so

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<v Speaker 1>long for them to reach an agreement.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we don't know the specific details. But this is

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<v Speaker 3>a quote from Michael Donnelly, he's one of the lawyers

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<v Speaker 3>at Morris Blackburn, who said Uber fought tooth and nail

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<v Speaker 3>at every point along the way every day for five years.

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<v Speaker 3>So while this settlement was reached, it certainly doesn't seem

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<v Speaker 3>like it was easily done. And as you said, no

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<v Speaker 3>doubt the legal fees on their own would have been astronomical.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's before we even factor in this settlement.

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<v Speaker 1>And so we have a settlement figure. It's two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and seventy two million dollars. That sounds like a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of cash.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep, two hundred and seventy one point eight million dollars

0:12:39.120 --> 0:12:40.199
<v Speaker 3>to be precise.

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:44.200
<v Speaker 2>And as we said earlier, this class action was due.

0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:48.200
<v Speaker 3>To be heard in court proceedings commencing Tuesday, but at

0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.560
<v Speaker 3>the eleventh hour. For whatever reason, Uber decided they didn't

0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:53.520
<v Speaker 3>want to go through with that process. So a deal

0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.160
<v Speaker 3>was made literally the day before or as far as

0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 3>we can tell. And one that Donnelly from Morris Blackburn said,

0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.000
<v Speaker 3>quote finally put real money back into the accounts of

0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.280
<v Speaker 3>people who've been devastated by Uber.

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.600
<v Speaker 1>And so hypothetically it should be that there's a pot

0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 1>of money two hundred and seventy two million that's split

0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.280
<v Speaker 1>up between it the eight thousand people in the case.

0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Is that how it's going to play out.

0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.520
<v Speaker 3>So it's not quite as cut and dry. First off,

0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.000
<v Speaker 3>Morth Blackburn has this agreement with a group called Harbor

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 3>Fund and they have paid a proportion of the legal

0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.720
<v Speaker 3>costs of the case over the last five years in

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:33.600
<v Speaker 3>exchange for a funding commission. Now that's somewhere between twenty

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:37.599
<v Speaker 3>five to thirty percent of this settlement, so it's also.

0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.960
<v Speaker 2>Entitled to recover it's legal costs. And right off the.

0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.480
<v Speaker 3>Bat, we're looking at, you know, a minimum of sixty

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.200
<v Speaker 3>eight million dollars for that fund.

0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Before we even get to the taxi drivers exactly. And

0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:50.040
<v Speaker 1>then of course the law firm will take a commission

0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.600
<v Speaker 1>and they normally take a couple of percent of the

0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:56.120
<v Speaker 1>final settlement and then finally the rest of the settlement

0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:58.760
<v Speaker 1>will go to the drivers and taxi operators. So we're

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:01.440
<v Speaker 1>talking really then about tens of thousands of dollars each,

0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 1>not millions.

0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but it is still the fifth largest class action

0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:10.440
<v Speaker 3>settlement in Australian history. And you know, eight thousand people

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:14.040
<v Speaker 3>participating or eight thousand people signing up to a class action,

0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.920
<v Speaker 3>that is a huge number of people. You know, we

0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 3>see class actions with tens or hundreds of people. This

0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:22.640
<v Speaker 3>is pretty significant. So they could still end up with

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 3>tens of thousands of dollars each. And Morris Blackburn said

0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.720
<v Speaker 3>it was proud its team held a major organization to

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.960
<v Speaker 3>account for inflicting what it called mass wrongs on people.

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 1>And have we heard from Uber since the settlement.

0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:38.920
<v Speaker 3>We did get a statement from Uber this week which

0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 3>said the platform is now regulated in every state and territory,

0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 3>which kind of speaks to that shift in ride sharing

0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:49.560
<v Speaker 3>that we mentioned earlier, and it said that since twenty eighteen,

0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:55.160
<v Speaker 3>it's made significant contributions into various state level taxi compensation schemes.

0:14:55.720 --> 0:14:59.520
<v Speaker 3>With the proposed settlement quote, we put these legacy issues

0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 3>FIR in our past, So it seems like that's basically

0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.240
<v Speaker 3>all we're going to hear from Uber. They don't sound

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.480
<v Speaker 3>very interested in going back into trudging all of that

0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 3>up again.

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Is that amount of money going to hurt them?

0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:13.480
<v Speaker 2>Well?

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.880
<v Speaker 3>I looked into this because two hundred and seventy two

0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:18.360
<v Speaker 3>million dollars sounds like a lot of money.

0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.080
<v Speaker 2>But Uber is a global.

0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:24.360
<v Speaker 3>Company, as we know, with revenue streams from major countries

0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 3>around the world, and not just from ride sharing anymore.

0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.160
<v Speaker 3>They've diversified. Uber Eats is its own beast. Its global

0:15:30.200 --> 0:15:34.520
<v Speaker 3>revenue for twenty twenty three was over fifteen billion Australian dollars,

0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.280
<v Speaker 3>so nine point nine USD. So you've got to think

0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:41.200
<v Speaker 3>two hundred and seventy two mel will hurt its Australian

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:42.400
<v Speaker 3>operations significantly.

0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.200
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, it's a multinational corporation.

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.320
<v Speaker 3>So you know, while these proceedings have wrapped up, and

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure Uber's very relieved that it's over, whether or

0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:53.960
<v Speaker 3>not it means a lot for their bottom line, we'll

0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:54.880
<v Speaker 3>kind of have to wait and see.

0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.120
<v Speaker 1>The interesting thing that Uber will be watching now is

0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:01.920
<v Speaker 1>if taxi drivers in other trees want to emulate a

0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 1>similar proceeding and a similar lawsuit, and then it can

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 1>start really adding up fuber exactly.

0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.000
<v Speaker 3>And you've got to wonder if negotiating that out of

0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:15.120
<v Speaker 3>court settlement has something to do with avoiding the public

0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.600
<v Speaker 3>interest of court hearings having that information out there, hearing

0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 3>the defense hearing from the Cabby's.

0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.560
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, we'll see if any other countries are watching.

0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.440
<v Speaker 1>Very interesting, Emma, thank you five stars for you, and

0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:27.840
<v Speaker 1>maybe I'll add the tip.

0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.360
<v Speaker 2>A bottle of water and some mince for you.

0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.560
<v Speaker 1>Sam. Thank you so much and thank you for joining

0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.280
<v Speaker 1>us on the Daily os today. If you enjoyed that episode,

0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.760
<v Speaker 1>let us know. If you're in Spotify, you can leave

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<v Speaker 1>a review or a comment, and you can leave a

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0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.840
<v Speaker 1>your ears tomorrow morning. Until then, have a great date.

0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:49.000
<v Speaker 1>My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Runda

0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Bungelung Calcoutin woman from Gadigol Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

0:16:54.120 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.920
<v Speaker 1>Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and tourist

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.800
<v Speaker 1>in Ireland and nations. We pay our respects to the

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.600
<v Speaker 1>first peoples of these countries, both past and present,