1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Do you ever find yourself stuck overthinking decisions instead of 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: taking action? What if you had a set of simple, 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: proven strategies that didn't just help you start making decisions, 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: but make the whole process faster, easier, and far more effective. 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: Jake Knapp has faced countless tough decisions, and it's clear 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: that he's mastered the art of making brilliant ones. Jake 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: isn't just a best selling author. He's the mastermind behind 8 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: truly amazing ideas. He's the New York Times best selling 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: author of Sprint and Make Time, the creator of the 10 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: design sprint that you might have heard of, which is 11 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: a groundbreaking process for solving complex problems and testing big ideas, 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 1: and his method has been embraced by some of the 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: world's most influential companies, including Google, Microsoft, Uber, Meta, Lego, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: and countless others. Now, in his latest book, Click, he 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 1: aims to help teams pinpoint the right problem to solve 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: and develop solutions in just forty eight hours. And with 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: his wealth of expertise, I was eager to tap into 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: Jake's insights on transforming our decision making processes. In this episode, 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:23,199 Speaker 1: we explore his approach that ensures you involve your team 20 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: rather than shut them out of decision making, and how 21 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: you can structure your meetings to guarantee optimal outcomes. Jake 22 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: also shares why you should be declining certain commitments if 23 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 1: they don't genuinely align with your priorities or passions. Welcome 24 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, and 25 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imber. 26 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Making a complex decision often means we have to work 27 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: through a lot of different perspectives and angles. But how 28 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: do we actually do that? Well, it turns out Jake 29 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: has some answers. 30 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 2: Okay, this is going to come across as a shameless 31 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: book plug right off of the bat, but the new 32 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: book is about this new sprint process that we run 33 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: with the startups we invest in, and a part of 34 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 2: the process is making complex decisions. So your startup, you're 35 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 2: beginning your company, and you're trying to figure out a 36 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 2: lot of things. Who's our customer? What problem are we 37 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: solving for them? We cover all this stuff in this 38 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: foundation sprint, which is what the book Click is about. 39 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: And the second half is sort of Okay, we've established 40 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: a bunch of these baseline things, what do we think 41 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: is going to make us stand out in the market. 42 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 2: But then there are a lot of different approaches we 43 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: might take to doing whatever that is, which is the 44 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 2: best approach? And so there's a structure that we use 45 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 2: to help think through this complex decision where you want 46 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: to weigh different perspectives, different ways of looking at it, 47 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: and not fall prey to the biases that we all 48 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 2: have about you know, we have limitations in our brain. 49 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: There's only so much we can keep in our heads 50 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 2: at once, so we have recency bias and tend to 51 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: have a hard time wing the thing that we just 52 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: heard versus the thing that we heard at the beginning 53 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 2: of the meeting, or earlier today or three weeks ago. Anyway, 54 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: in my day to day life, I also have questions 55 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 2: decisions to make that are too complicated to easily weigh. 56 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 2: And so one of the experiments I've been doing recently 57 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 2: is using the same method we use on our startups 58 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: on myself. It's charting out these different perspectives, looking at 59 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 2: them all at once, and trying to see, okay, which 60 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: of these perspectives really is the right way to look 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: at it, and perhaps is there a path, does one 62 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: solution or one answer consistently show up in kind of 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: the top right of these charts, which is sort of 64 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: the good part. 65 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Now, are you talking about magic lenses? 66 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: I am, yeah, this is magic lenses? Yes, okay. 67 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: Can we go into more datail that because I would 68 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: love to hear, like, in your day to day how 69 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: do you use the magic lenses process? And maybe if 70 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: we could go into more detail as to what that involves. 71 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 2: Yes, well, first I should. I'll preface by saying, in 72 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: my day to day life, it's only a big decision 73 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: that warrants using magic lenses, because when you hear me 74 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 2: describe magic lenses, you might say, WHOA, that's a lot. 75 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 2: I don't want to do that when I'm picking my lunch, 76 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 2: you know. So if you're looking at the menu at 77 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 2: the sandwich shop, this is not the time. But you know, 78 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 2: if you're trying to decide, if your kid is trying 79 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 2: to decide what to do after they've graduated from school, 80 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: or if you're trying to decide if you know what 81 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: to do with your career, or you know, if you're 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: trying to decide what kind of card to buy, or 83 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: of this nature where it's like, well, there are a 84 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: lot of things to weigh. They are real life issues, 85 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 2: but they're big. Here's what magic lenses is. It's a 86 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: simple idea, which is that you make a two y 87 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 2: two chart for every perspective that you think is an 88 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 2: important perspective for thinking about a question. So, to use 89 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: the example of the car that I just described, you're 90 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: trying to decide what kind of car should I get? 91 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 2: It can be very overwhelming. There's so many options, you know, 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 2: So one way of thinking about the decision is cost. 93 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: What's the cost of purchasing the car? Where do I 94 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 2: anticipate the ongoing maintenance or fuel or lack thereof, if 95 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 2: it's electric, costs might be And so you can imagine 96 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: a two y two chart of cost with you know, 97 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 2: upfront costs and ongoing costs. And then you might have 98 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: five or ten different cars you're thinking about. You design 99 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: each one a color sticky note and you put them 100 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 2: on there. And we do a lot of this stuff 101 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 2: in Mirro, which is an online whiteboard, but you might 102 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: do this in real life. Okay, so now I've got 103 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: one chart, and maybe there's one in the top right, 104 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: or someone one or two or three up there look 105 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: pretty good. Well, now we look at something else like 106 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 2: maybe reliability, or maybe which one's the most fun to drive. 107 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: When I'm working with a startup, there are consistently four 108 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 2: lenses that are always a good idea for any kind 109 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: of project they might be working on. And the first 110 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: one of those is the pragmatic lens. So if you 111 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: imagine your stereotypical engineer who perhaps is concerned with what's 112 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: the fastest thing to build? What's the most expensive thing 113 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: to build? So we want it, we want the cheap 114 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: to build and you know, fast to build, that would 115 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 2: be the top right of the pragmatic lens. And then 116 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: a startup should think about growth. So where are there 117 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: the most customers that this solution might reach, and how 118 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 2: easy is it for people to adopt this thing? And 119 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 2: we could chart all the options there, and then we 120 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 2: might think about money. Which of these has the highest 121 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 2: long term value and the most potential paying customers. Then 122 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 2: we of course should think about the customer, and in fact, 123 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 2: this might be the most important lens, which best solves 124 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 2: the problem that we believe customers have, and which one 125 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 2: of these is the easiest to use and adopt. And 126 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: so this set of charts. If we plot all of 127 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: our options in color. On those, we can see like 128 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: maybe one, maybe the green one is always in the 129 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: top right, Well, great, maybe we should do that, or 130 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: maybe it's a mix, but one of those feels the 131 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: most right. And when we're doing this with a startup, 132 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: once we've gone through some basic ones, the obvious ones, 133 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: we start to create some new custom fine tune perspectives. Anyway, 134 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: it's a lot to hold in your head even be 135 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: describing it. But the point of this is that I 136 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: bounce from one thing to another. It's like I'm a 137 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: pinball machine in my head. And the same thing happens 138 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: with teams. And when you have a whole team of people, 139 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 2: even if you just have two founders or three founders, 140 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 2: they're pinballing around between these things. So when we make 141 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: it plain and we think, if you had a team 142 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: of advisors who have these different perspectives, what would each 143 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: one of them say? And then what are the other 144 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: viewpoints that you think might be interesting, Let's craft a 145 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 2: chart for those. It's so helpful. It's like if you're 146 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 2: a Harry Potter fan, there's the pen sieve where they 147 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: take the memories out of their minds, and then you 148 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: can see you can kind of go into the story. 149 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: So how do you know that you've got the right 150 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: or the best lenses when you're thinking through you know, 151 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: cost and pragmaticism and growth and anything else with any 152 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: kind of decision. How do you get to that point 153 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: where you're like, yes, these will be the themes or 154 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: the lens or the criteria for these two by. 155 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 2: Twos, those four that I mentioned come from our experience 156 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: working with a lot of startups, and it just these 157 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 2: perspectives would always be useful in every case. So those 158 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 2: I feel comfortable if you're talking about a business question, 159 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: thinking about the customer, thinking about pragmatism, thinking about money, 160 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: you're running a business, and thinking about growth, you're not 161 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 2: going to go wrong thinking about those perspectives. But for 162 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 2: the others, and again this is going to get a 163 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: little nerdy, but what we do is have every possible approach. 164 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: We list as many as we can, and then we 165 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: choose the top few. So you know, if we're working 166 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: with a startup, we have one person who's the decider, 167 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 2: the CEO, and they'll they'll choose Okay, we'll vote, everybody votes, 168 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 2: and then the CEO will say these are the top, 169 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 2: say five approaches I want to consider, and then we'll 170 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: divide up and we'll say, okay, somebody needs to take 171 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 2: a sheet of paper and write a sentence or two 172 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 2: about why this is a good idea and maybe draw 173 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 2: a doodle of it, you know, right, Okay, for this approach, 174 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 2: here's what I think is good about it, and here's 175 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: just a back of the napkin sketch of what I 176 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,959 Speaker 2: have in mind how it would look. We all then 177 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,479 Speaker 2: look at those approaches and we'll take a note underneath 178 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 2: with sticky notes what's the criteria this is good at. 179 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 2: What does this do well at? Often founders will put 180 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 2: on a sticky note this this is exciting to build. 181 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 2: I'm excited about building this. And that's often a really 182 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 2: important consideration because there's a lot that goes into that. 183 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: There's a lot of maybe intuition about something, and often 184 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: after you've gone through the more rational logical progression of 185 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 2: the standard ways of looking at it, you find that, well, 186 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 2: excitement is really important. Often there's might be something like 187 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: we can find a partner who will do this with us, 188 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: you know, a company partner who can help us distribute this, 189 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: so things that might be particular to the kind of 190 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: business that a startup is in. But I always trust 191 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 2: that the team themselves are going to have good insights 192 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: into what makes a good lens. And once we've gotten 193 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 2: warmed up by doing those classic ones, that's kind of 194 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: the key. You warm up a bit, then you're kind 195 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 2: of in the right mode and it's easy to make 196 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: one or two or three. 197 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: More So, once you've got your criteria, let's just take excitement. 198 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: I like that one. How do you figure out what's 199 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: your X and Y access? Because I think of excitement, 200 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, that's just one access. How then do 201 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 1: you tease that apart into the two things that you 202 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: need to plot your options on. 203 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: Well, it depends, like I would ask. 204 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: I turn it around a consultant shake, yeah. 205 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: Totally right. If we were working together and you were saying, gosh, 206 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about doing a new book and I have 207 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 2: a few different ideas, and you know, I want to 208 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 2: sort of think about excitement, well, I might say, well, okay, 209 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 2: what are the components of excitement for you? For founders, 210 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: it's often this is fun to build or I have conviction, 211 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: I have a feeling, or like an intuition about this. 212 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: It's going to kind of vary from first to person often. 213 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 2: I think the lens that best captures this is like 214 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: the conviction lens, and the components are excitement and like 215 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: matches the mission. That's a really common extra lens for founders. 216 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: Something else that you I know are very thoughtful about 217 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,320 Speaker 1: making decisions on meetings. And when we were discussing this 218 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: podcast strove email, you're talking about how you're trying to 219 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 1: reduce the number of meetings that you're going to and 220 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 1: you used a term called the medicine in the meeting. 221 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: Can you talk me through how your rethinking meetings? 222 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so I have a son who has a 223 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: medical condition. He's got these headaches that have been going 224 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: on almost NonStop for several years, and we've been trying 225 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: to find ways to help with it and try all 226 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: these different migraine treatments and mostly they didn't help that much. 227 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: And not long ago we had an appointment with a 228 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: new doctor. He turned twenty one and so he had 229 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: to go see a neurologist for adults instead of for children. 230 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: And he found this doctor who is a nurse practitioner 231 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 2: and has been seeing migraine patients for decades and is 232 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,119 Speaker 2: very enthusiastic about the treatment of migraines. And the appointment 233 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 2: with her, she said, you're a new patient. I'd like 234 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: you to come in at the end of the day, 235 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 2: and so we said okay, And when we got in there, 236 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 2: she said, okay, we're going to be here for at 237 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 2: least a couple of hours because I want to know 238 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 2: everything about what's going on with you. And this is 239 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 2: a person who is just inherently super curious about this 240 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 2: top you know, the topic that she treats. She's inherently 241 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: extremely curious about migraines. She's fascinated with them and doesn't 242 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: want to take anything for granted about what's been done before. 243 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 2: So she wanted the entire backstory everything, and spent a 244 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 2: good couple of hours going through all of this, and 245 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: then before we left, we ended up spending a third 246 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: hour during which she tried some things. The point of 247 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 2: all this is that in this meeting, usually you see 248 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: the doctor, and we've had a series of excellent doctors 249 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: for him, but you see them and it's half an 250 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 2: hour and you're gone, you know, And that's the usual, 251 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 2: And in this meeting, it's a meeting, you know, it's 252 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: an appointment, but it is a kind of meeting. We're 253 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 2: there for three hours and she's trying to uncover everything 254 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: in the background that might be going on, and then saying, Okay, 255 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: this gives me an idea of a couple of experiments. 256 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 2: Now instead of just telling you about them and having 257 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: you go off and do them on your own. Some 258 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 2: of them you have to, but some of them we 259 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: can do right now. Let's start doing this. And I 260 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: left that appointment both encouraged and optimistic that maybe there 261 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: was some new hope for my son with these other approaches, 262 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: but also thinking I should apply this to the work 263 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: that I do, because, like the nurse who helped us, 264 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: I'm deeply curious. I love my work, and I'm deeply 265 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: curious about the people who we work with and the 266 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 2: problems that they have, and I want to solve them. 267 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 2: Why do I meet with them for a half an 268 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,560 Speaker 2: hour or an hour, It's just the default on the calendar. 269 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: It doesn't really make sense. It's better if I could 270 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 2: meet with them for two hours, you know, or three hours. 271 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 2: And in a way I already do that because we 272 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: work in sprints. Whenever possible, and my general policy is 273 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: to not have meetings if I can avoid them, except 274 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: then go all in and be working together for like 275 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: two days or five days. But I thought there's something 276 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 2: in between. Sometimes we can just jump right in and 277 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 2: do something, and that's been a new source of experiments 278 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: to say, can I meet with people for a shorter 279 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 2: amount of time or not at all, you know, fifteen 280 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: minutes or not at all, But then also offer, okay, 281 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: there's you know when we talk, let's also have these 282 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: sessions where it's two or three hours and we dive 283 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 2: right into it. So that's the medicine, delivering the medicine 284 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 2: right in the meeting instead of just talking about what 285 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: might happen in the future, doing it together. 286 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: I love everything that you've just described about how you 287 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: think about meetings, and my brain is working over time, going, 288 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I think about my diary, and I 289 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: mean one of the things we talk to our clients 290 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: about and Inventium is not defaulting to thirty or sixty 291 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: minute meetings. But I'm now thinking how do I make decisions? 292 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: And I'm probably thinking more so in the context of 293 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: sales or business development meetings, which I typically will have 294 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: for thirty to sixty minutes, depending on how complex I 295 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: think the brief will be. But also if I'm going 296 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: out in person, I will generally default to a longer time, 297 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: but never two hours. But in my mind, I'm like, well, 298 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: maybe some of those I should be going really deep. 299 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: So how then do you decide? Where do you maybe 300 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: curtail things and go fifteen minutes, and where do you 301 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: go like the whole two hours or longer. 302 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 2: I haven't totally figured this out. This is a new 303 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: idea to me, and what I have been trying to 304 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: do is think about every time when I'm scheduling a meeting, 305 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: I try to remember, and it's hard because the default 306 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: is very strong. The thirty minutes to an hour default 307 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 2: is very strong. So I'm meeting someone for the first time, 308 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: that's maybe actually a good time for the longer meeting, 309 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 2: but it's really socially awkward to say, let's meet for 310 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: two hours, like that's a lot. That's like, wow, it's 311 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 2: a lot of Jake, I don't know, I've never met 312 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 2: you before. I'm not sure I want to get on 313 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: board for that two hour call. So what I have 314 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 2: been trying to do is have the half hour call 315 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: or the you know, be maybe like to be ready 316 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 2: to offer the two hour call. And the context I'm 317 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 2: talking about is meeting a new founder usually, so you know, 318 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: if I'm meeting someone new, have the first call be 319 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 2: sort of like, hey, I'm kind of normal. I won't 320 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 2: try to you know, thirty minutes is fine. And then 321 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 2: and then as we're talking, like, maybe, oh, there's there's 322 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 2: something here I could help you with right away, Like 323 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: let's find a two hour block to do it. It's 324 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: a little easier with people who I already know, so 325 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: founders in whom we have already invested. Then I can 326 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: say this is a two hour thing. We can solve 327 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 2: this on a call rather than doing a whole sprint 328 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: or rather than me saying here's my advice to you, 329 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 2: let's work on it together. And I have found it's 330 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: very fun. So I just like having it as a 331 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 2: tool in the tool belt, like an option to go to. 332 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 2: And I haven't figured out a master plan for how 333 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: it works for everything. I don't have that yet, but 334 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 2: I just I just like it, and it feels so 335 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: good when that meeting happens and it's longer and we 336 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: work together in the meeting, and an hour is always 337 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 2: a rush to get something meaningful done. 338 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, something else I like about that is particularly 339 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: and I think because for me, it's just really clear 340 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: in the sales process of where a two hour deep 341 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: dive slash you know, consulting while I'm also trying to 342 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: understand the problem meeting could influence. Is just that escalation 343 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 1: of commitment because I'm spending so much time with this 344 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: new person, and I'm probably doing so because I'm really 345 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: keen to start a working relationship with their organization. And 346 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 1: I think just the gesture of offering two hours of 347 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: your time is so unique when you know meetings can 348 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: be just so transactional. 349 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: I think absolutely, I always struggle in the shorter meetings. 350 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: So I do this investing work. Me and my co 351 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 2: author John Zaratski, I think you've spoken to in the past, 352 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 2: and another friend of ours named Eli ble Goldman. We 353 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 2: run this venture fund called Character Capital. We invest in 354 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: early stage startups and I won't speak for them, but 355 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: for me, I do this investing work simply because I 356 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: love to work with people at the beginning of a 357 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: big project, when they're just starting out, and it's really 358 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: fun with startups It's especially fun with startups because they're 359 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 2: starting from scratch and they have to figure out a 360 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 2: way to make it work. It's a survival thing for 361 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: their company, and all of that is just a wonderful 362 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: context for me to get to help them out and 363 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: to learn about how to make projects work the best, 364 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 2: and then hopefully share things like the book Click that 365 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: have ideas about what I learned. I just love doing it. 366 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: In a meeting with a prospective company, you know, with 367 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: a founder in whom we might invest, there is not 368 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: enough time to get in and really get into that 369 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 2: stuff and show this is how it is when we 370 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 2: work together and do the part that I love the most. 371 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 2: And so it is this kind of sales conversation. You know, 372 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 2: they're selling me and I'm selling them on we're a 373 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 2: great partner to invest in you, and they're selling me 374 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 2: on we're a great company, you should invest in us. 375 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: And it's too short of a time. Everybody's just pitching 376 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: each other. And so yeah, it's lovely. It is lovely 377 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: to get to do that because if I feel like 378 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: a lot of the pretense falls away and we get 379 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 2: to do more of what we genuinely want to be doing. 380 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 2: Which is not to just put on a show and 381 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: show slides, but it's to be together and work together 382 00:20:56,320 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: in a more human way that's actually quite We. 383 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: Will be back with Jake soon, and when we return, 384 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: Jake reveals why saying no to commitments you're not passionate 385 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: about is crucial for success. Plus, he shares a surprisingly 386 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: simple decision that can instantly tame your chaotic email inbox 387 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: and reclaim your productivity. If you're looking for more tips 388 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: to improve the way you work, can Live. I write 389 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 1: a short weekly newsletter that contains tactics I've discovered that 390 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: have helped me personally. You can sign up for that 391 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: at Amantha dot com. That's Amantha dot com. I want 392 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: to talk about another thing that you have been thinking about, 393 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: which you've termed leave money on the table. I don't 394 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: want to paraphrase. Can you tell me what you've been 395 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: thinking about there, and maybe some experiments that you've been doing. 396 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 2: I was just recently hanging out with my friend Jonathan Courtney, 397 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 2: and he was talking about how when people say you're 398 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: leaving money on the table by not doing this thing, 399 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 2: to him, that is a message that he does not 400 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 2: want to do that thing. He says, there's something about 401 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: the framing of you're leaving money on the table that 402 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 2: is a signal to me that, oh, I'm doing something 403 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: that may not make sense by conventional evaluation, but I 404 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: must really not want to do it, and so I'm 405 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 2: going to keep doing that behavior. People tell him he's 406 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 2: leaving money on the table to try to spur him 407 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 2: to do this thing, and he's like, that's a signal 408 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: to me that I've got it figured out. I don't 409 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: want to do that thing. And I know that's a 410 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: bit convoluted, But the thing that I took away from 411 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: that was there are a lot of conventional wisdom frameworks 412 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 2: about how you ought to behave things you ought to 413 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: do in business because it's making the most of everything. 414 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: And a simple one for me is being really active 415 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: on social media, especially on LinkedIn, and it's it's a 416 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: thing that you know, if you've started to develop followers, 417 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: or if you're trying to write books, or you're trying 418 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 2: to get something out there, an easy way to continue 419 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: to engage with people is to continue to post on 420 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: let's say, LinkedIn, and so by continuing to do that, 421 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 2: it's going to help you out with all the other stuff. 422 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 2: So if I don't do it, I'm leaving money on 423 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: the table. Right, it doesn't take that long to write 424 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: a post, it doesn't take that long to respond to 425 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 2: people's comments and be active on there. And by not 426 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 2: doing it, I've got all these potential connections, these potential 427 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: people who might see my stuff, and I'm just leaving 428 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: that money sitting there and I'm walking away from the table. 429 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: And I do post on LinkedIn occasionally, but I have 430 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,400 Speaker 2: found that when I'm more active on it just something 431 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: about the way my brain works. It's very hard for 432 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: me to do other stuff. It's very hard for me 433 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,399 Speaker 2: to do big stuff. So if I'm writing a book, 434 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: posting on LinkedIn is devastating to me. I have to 435 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 2: shift gears. It's very slow to like, what makes a 436 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: good book chapter is not what makes a good LinkedIn post? 437 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 2: So now what makes a good LinkedIn post? And you 438 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 2: can almost hear the gears s grinding in my head, like, 439 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 2: oh LinkedIn, you know, trying to boot up the LinkedIn software. 440 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 2: And then once I make the post, then I'm like, well, 441 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 2: I want to respond to the people who write comments. 442 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 2: And so now I'm like monitoring it and I'm like, 443 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 2: stressed out about did people reply? Do they like me? 444 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 2: You know? If they don't, then I'm stressed out about that. 445 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: If they do, then I'm like, well, I have to 446 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: keep going back and replying to more comments. So that's 447 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 2: an example where I think this notion of if I 448 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: feel that something is unnatural or hurting my main efforts, 449 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 2: sometimes that's a signal that I just need to expand 450 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,120 Speaker 2: my comfort zone. I need to spend more time outside 451 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: of my comfort zone so that my comfort zone gets bigger. 452 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: I need to suck it up and go on LinkedIn. Right, 453 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 2: that might be the answer, But sometimes the answer is 454 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: I'm avoiding that thing because of a good reason, and 455 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 2: conventional wisdom doesn't help me in this case. That's the 456 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: whole idea with leaving money on the table is sometimes 457 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 2: leaving money on the table is really smart because you're 458 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: saving your time for what you perceive to be what 459 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: I might perceive to be a bigger pot of money 460 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: somewhere else. 461 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: I love that thinking. I mean, because it sounds to 462 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: me that that's almost become a trip wire for you 463 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,199 Speaker 1: in terms of deciding where to put your time, Like, 464 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: how does that play out in the day to day like, 465 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 1: you know, I love the LinkedIn example. How else like 466 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,880 Speaker 1: and where else have you caught yourself going oh, I'm 467 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: leaving money on the table, and then that then triggers 468 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: you to go down this decision making path. 469 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 2: Almost I'm on the lookout for commitments that either came 470 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 2: from me or from outside folks, it doesn't matter. But 471 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: a commitment that I've signed up for with the expectation 472 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: that it's going to return something, I want to reevaluate those. 473 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: My co author John and I started a podcast recently 474 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 2: and we said, hey, you know, let's do this podcast, 475 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 2: and we should do it every week because that's kind 476 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 2: of how you continue having people you know show up 477 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 2: and listen to your podcast. You probably know this. And 478 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 2: we recorded a few episodes. It was really fun, and 479 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 2: then I had this leaving money on the table sort 480 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 2: of trigger of like, well, if we don't keep doing 481 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 2: it every week, we're leaving money on the table. And 482 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 2: then I realized, but wait a second, I'm starting to 483 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 2: feel like it's a better idea if we do this 484 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: in seasons, because I don't have the continual well of 485 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: new ideas to do it every week, and we're not 486 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 2: going to put in the effort at least right now, 487 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: to like find a guest every week. You know, that's 488 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: a hassle. Like you every time you got to find 489 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: a guest and you got to deal with their schedule, 490 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: you got to deal with their everything, got to prepare 491 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 2: for it. It's a lot. I mean, it's a full 492 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: time job. So I've realized, like, Okay, I'm going to 493 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: have to leave money on the table by not making 494 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 2: it a weekly thing. We're going to have to take 495 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 2: breaks from it. And I know that's not the optimal 496 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 2: way to do it, but if it's going to happen, 497 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: it has to be that way. If that means the 498 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 2: podcast doesn't work at all for me, that's going to 499 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 2: be okay. Because again, for my brain, which takes a 500 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: lot of gear shifting to get into a different mode, 501 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 2: even recording a podcast in the morning might make it 502 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 2: harder for me to do other things the rest of 503 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: the day. And so I really value doing these big 504 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: things like spending a week with a company and a 505 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: sprint or writing a book, and those big things take 506 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 2: more intense focus that is easily fractured, and it means 507 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: giving up on some things that I'd like to do. 508 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: Another thing that i'd like to do that I give 509 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: up on. That's sort of leaving money on the table. 510 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 2: Is being really responsive on email. I'd like to be 511 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 2: a lot more responsive than I am, but it comes 512 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 2: at a cost, and so I have to leave the money, 513 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: so to speak, on the table, of being someone who 514 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: people think of as being really responsive, which people like, 515 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 2: and I value it in other people when they're responsive 516 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 2: to me. I have to give that up, and it's 517 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 2: a bit painful, but I think it's the right trade 518 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,919 Speaker 2: off because there's like a bigger, hopefully treasure chest that 519 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: comes from the uninterrupted work. 520 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: Because on the topic of email, actually, I've heard you 521 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,479 Speaker 1: talk about trying to slow your inbox, and I love that. 522 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: I am a superhuman user. I am not sure if 523 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: you are also a yeah, superhuman. So there we go, 524 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: the fastest email software in the world, but you're trying 525 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: to slow it down. How are you doing that, Jake? 526 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 2: I slow down my inbox by trying to be comfortable 527 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: with the discomfort of having emails sit in my inbox, 528 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: and it is it is a discomfort. It feels good 529 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: to go through and empty it out and respond to everyone. 530 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: But the more I respond, the faster than people will 531 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 2: right back. And so it is there's a feedback loop 532 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: there where the more time I spend an email, the 533 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 2: more time I'll spend an email. I can never really 534 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 2: get on top of it. And when whever you're doing 535 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 2: something that's important to you, the constant feedback loop of 536 00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: email or slack or whatever messaging it might be, it 537 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 2: has a cost. The slowing down the email thing is 538 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: largely a practice of looking in the inbox when I do. 539 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 2: You know, one thing is not looking at it and 540 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: trying to sprint on a focus thing throughout the day. 541 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 2: Another thing is looking in the inbox, picking out the 542 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 2: one or two things that I need to respond to 543 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 2: you right away, and then leaving everything else sitting in 544 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 2: there for a week. You know, it might be two weeks. 545 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's embarrassing, but eventually when I get back saying 546 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry but or you know, thank you for 547 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 2: your patience. But here's finally your response. 548 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: Something I want to ask you about finally, Jake, is 549 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: because of who you are, who you talk to, the 550 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: companies that you invest in, and that you meet with 551 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: her for two hours or well, I would love to know, 552 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: like what a two or three pieces of software or 553 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: tools or tech that but are really exciting you that 554 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: you think me and maybe listeners should absolutely try out. 555 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 2: There are three things that I'm the most interested in 556 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: or have found the most useful lately. One of them 557 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: is I'll admit this is a plug for a company 558 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 2: that we've invested in, but it's really useful. It's a 559 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: tool called Fathom, and it's a note taker for your 560 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 2: Zoom calls or your Google Meet calls or whatever. And 561 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: it's one of these, you know, one of these note 562 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 2: taking bots that sort of sits in your call. But 563 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: I just found it to be incredibly useful to have 564 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: those text notes that I can link to afterwards and 565 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: go right to the spot and replay the spot. I 566 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: don't do that for calls i've had myself, but when 567 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 2: our team on our team, when one person's been in 568 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 2: a call and they say, hey, here's what happened. Can 569 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 2: you give me your opinion, and I can go back 570 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 2: and look and see what the conversation was, it's just 571 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 2: a huge time saver. I really like that. So that's 572 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: an interesting one because it does the note taking for you, 573 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 2: and there's a pro and con to having notes taken 574 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: for you. It's nice and I have to take notes, 575 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 2: but if I don't take the notes myself, they don't 576 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 2: really stick in my brain. So the other thing is 577 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 2: a remarkable tablet, and I've had one for a long time. 578 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 2: I just got the newest one. I'm not sure if 579 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: I think the newest one is better than the older one. 580 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 2: It's got like a backlit screen, and it's kind of heavier, 581 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 2: it's bigger, it's nicer, certainly in some ways. But the 582 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: old one is also great. And anyway, I have the 583 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: old one at my desk and I have the new 584 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 2: one kind of you know, and my bedside table. And 585 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: I like taking notes on a device that I can't 586 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 2: check email on, that I can't get distracted on. I 587 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: just can write notes. There's always paper, you know, and 588 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,520 Speaker 2: I can easily print copies or email copies or whatever. 589 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 2: But it's a very simple device that I love. And 590 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,840 Speaker 2: the third thing, which I'm still kind of developing how 591 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: to use. I'm using right now, is we're on this 592 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 2: call as a teleprompter. Teleprompter is you know, the it's 593 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: a screen with a reflective mirror. You probably do have one, Amantha. 594 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: I am looking at you through a teleprompter making great 595 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: eye contact. 596 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 2: Now, I don't really have the camera dialed in, so 597 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 2: if people are watching on YouTube and I look like 598 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: I'm in a grainy webcam, you can blame the teleprompter. 599 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: I did have a better camera before. We'll get a 600 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: better one. I'll look like Amantha in the future at 601 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: some point in terms of resolution, Christmas and everything. But 602 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: the thing that I found is so great about this 603 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: that surprised me. I did it because, look, I selfishly, 604 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: I just wanted to look better on camera. I wanted 605 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: to be making eye contact, and I wanted people to 606 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: watch and think, what a great guy, you know. But 607 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 2: what I found about it that's surprising is how much 608 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: more comfortable it is to have a conversation over video 609 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 2: with a teleprompter. I didn't queue into this before, but 610 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 2: normally when I'm on a video call, I'm constantly thinking 611 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 2: about I should be making eye contact, and I'll make 612 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: the effort to look at the webcam, but then I'm 613 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,479 Speaker 2: not looking at the person, and I feel like my 614 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 2: brain is kind of straining to do that. Or I'm 615 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 2: looking at the person and they're not quite making eye 616 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 2: contact with me. I'm just not sure where to look 617 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 2: and it's fatiguing. And I didn't really notice how fatiguing 618 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 2: it was. I knew all zoom calls are fatiguing, but 619 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 2: sin switching to the teleprompter for calls, I'm like, it's great. 620 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 2: I feel so much more like I'm actually in the 621 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: room with the person because where I'm looking is where 622 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 2: they are. And it's been nice. So that's I'm in 623 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: early days with this. But that's the third item. 624 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: It's the best. I mean, it is quite novel, but 625 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: also I think so important to be able to look 626 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 1: someone in the eyes in a virtual meeting. I used 627 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 1: to think, oh, well, I need this kind of setup 628 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: because I do a lot of virtual keynotes and the podcast. 629 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: But I think for everyone that is able to afford 630 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: even a basic setup, it makes so much difference with 631 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: just connecting with the other human on the end of 632 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: your virtual call. 633 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: It's wild. 634 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: Oh, Jake, I just I love chatting to you. Always 635 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: just got such unique ways of thinking about things. I 636 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: feel like I've made some notes through hacking. I must 637 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: experiment with that. I must experiment with that. So I 638 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,840 Speaker 1: just want to say a massive thank you for coming 639 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: back on how I work. I'm sure this might be 640 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: the last time. But thank you. I've just thoroughly loved 641 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: this chat. 642 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me about that. 643 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: I hope you loved this chat with Jake as much 644 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: as I did. I know that I'm very curious to 645 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: see if his strategy for meetings can actually work. And 646 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about Jake, I highly 647 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: recommend checking out his latest book click and there are 648 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: links to that in the show notes. If you like 649 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: today's show, make sure you hit follow on your podcast 650 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How I 651 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: Work was recorded on the traditional land of the Warrangery People, 652 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:50,919 Speaker 1: part of the Cooler Nation