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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers Now.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really important that parents are talking to

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Speaker 2: kids generally about different stages of life and what society

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Speaker 2: expects from them.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 3: Well, not explicit, some of the things that we're going

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Speaker 3: to be talking about in today's podcast are for mature ears,

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Speaker 3: and there may be some people who may be triggered

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Speaker 3: by some of the conversation that will be having in

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Speaker 3: the podcast today.

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Speaker 4: So if you have sensitive.

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Speaker 3: Ears or little ears who are listening, this might be

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Speaker 3: one to either skip or listen to at a different time.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about a very challenging and very important topic today.

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Speaker 4: This is doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 3: I'm the founder a Happy Families dot com dot au

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Speaker 3: and I'm really appreciative that you're joining me on the

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Speaker 3: Happy Families Podcast today. Unfortunately Kylie couldn't be with me,

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Speaker 3: but in response to a listener question that we had

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Speaker 3: on Facebook a couple of weeks ago, I've reached out

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Speaker 3: to Miranda Bain. Miranda Bain is the therapy services manager

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Speaker 3: or director at ACT for Kids. A psychologist who works

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Speaker 3: to help children and families who are going through some

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Speaker 3: significant challenges, and she joins me today to talk about

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Speaker 3: sibling sexual abuse. Miranda, thanks so much for being a

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Speaker 3: part of the podcast today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me justin.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: We had a question come from a listener via Facebook

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Speaker 3: a little while ago. I want to read the question

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Speaker 3: to you, and once again just a warning in case

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Speaker 3: people didn't catch it at the beginning, we are going

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Speaker 3: to be talking about some fairly sensitive issues today. The

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Speaker 3: Facebook follower asked this question, can you please help me

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Speaker 3: out with some advice as to how to address the

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Speaker 3: situation that I'm sure a lot of parents, including myself,

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Speaker 3: don't know how to address or don't do well. I'm

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Speaker 3: pretty sure I walked into my kids experimenting and experimenting

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Speaker 3: is in inverted commerce, experimenting with these last night. They're

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Speaker 3: sharing a room while we have family visiting. While I

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Speaker 3: like to think I'm pretty open minded and body positive,

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Speaker 3: I can feel myself battling my conditioning that kids should

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Speaker 3: not be touching each other in this way. So can

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Speaker 3: you please do a post about it or bring it

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Speaker 3: up on the podcast? How do I talk to my

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Speaker 3: kids about it. Do I even bring it up? How

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Speaker 3: do I do it in a way that doesn't make

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Speaker 3: the exploration of their bodies shameful?

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Speaker 4: But I also want.

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Speaker 3: Them to understand the whole issue of consent and not

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Speaker 3: touching other people if they don't want.

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Speaker 4: To be touched.

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Speaker 3: This has created a really big and carefully worded series

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Speaker 3: of responses from people who have been in this situation, Miranda.

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Speaker 3: Some people are saying, well, this is sibling sexual abuse.

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Speaker 3: This could turn into some really scary things. Other people

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Speaker 3: are saying, it's just kids trying to play doctors and

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Speaker 3: nurses and figure things out for themselves. In some ways,

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Speaker 3: this could be a really simple conversation about kids experimenting and,

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Speaker 3: like I said, playing doctors and nurses. But it also

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Speaker 3: could be much more than that. Miranda, As somebody who

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Speaker 3: works in such a privileged and challenging position as a

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Speaker 3: director of therapy services for ACT for Kids, how would

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Speaker 3: you respond if you were asked this question by a

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Speaker 3: parent who is obviously concerned.

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess the first thing I would say is

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Speaker 2: good on you for seeking support and information about it

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Speaker 2: and your obvious intention to not shame or harm your child.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that we do know is that

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Speaker 2: there's a strong correlation between shame and lowered self esteem

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Speaker 2: as a result of the way that our sexuality can

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Speaker 2: be interpreted by others. So I just, I really I

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Speaker 2: want to say that first, good on you for reaching

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Speaker 2: out and seeking seeking information. I guess that's the second

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Speaker 2: point I would say is if someone came to me

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Speaker 2: with that scenario, I would say, gosh, really needs some

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Speaker 2: more information. The writer said that the children were sharing

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Speaker 2: a room because they were family visiting, But so I'm

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Speaker 2: assuming they don't normally share a room. So some of

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Speaker 2: the information that I would probably be interested in is

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Speaker 2: do they typically play well together? Are they a similar age,

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Speaker 2: is there a strong bond between them? Is there a

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Speaker 2: nice rapport? What was the context so you say you've

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Speaker 2: got family staying, was that are there big changes in

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Speaker 2: the family where their family issues going on? I guess

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Speaker 2: also thinking about what are the household norms and rules

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Speaker 2: for your household and do you have conversations with kids

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Speaker 2: about with your children about protective behaviors, so things like

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Speaker 2: public and private body parts, safe and unsafe, touching, safe people,

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Speaker 2: talking about consent, do the kids know their body part names?

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Speaker 2: Those sorts of things are I guess would help me

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Speaker 2: to know I guess to then where I would go

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Speaker 2: from that?

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Speaker 3: Miranda, So so many important points already in what you've said.

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Speaker 3: It's also worth highlighting we don't know the age of

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Speaker 3: these children. That wasn't shared in this particular email, So

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Speaker 3: it does kind of complicate the picture depending on whether

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Speaker 3: the kids are really really young or whether they're somewhat

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Speaker 3: older and do no better. And to the extent that

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Speaker 3: they know better, do they really know exactly what it means?

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Speaker 3: So let's let's talk about this from a benign situation.

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Speaker 3: Let's let's say that this is the first time it's

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Speaker 3: ever happened. They're really young kids, it's a it's a

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Speaker 3: scenario where we just need to talk to them about

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Speaker 3: protective behaviors, as you said, and about private versus public

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Speaker 3: body parts and the way we touch and what consent

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Speaker 3: is and those sorts of things. Where do we draw

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Speaker 3: the line? So, what are the scenarios where a simple

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Speaker 3: conversation is going.

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Speaker 4: To be enough?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think where a simple conversation will be enough

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Speaker 2: is where it's developmentally normal, where there's an obvious curiosity

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Speaker 2: and exploration rather than a sexual gratification. That's that the

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Speaker 2: child seeking a sexual gratification, that it's sort of coming

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Speaker 2: out of both children's mutual interests, that there's a mutual consent.

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Speaker 2: Are they laughing and giggling? Are they being silly with

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Speaker 2: it and having fun? Those are the scenarios where a

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Speaker 2: simple conversation is likely to be enough in a context

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Speaker 2: where those conversations happen naturally anyway, a bit like what

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming happens with the writer of the question. I

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Speaker 2: think the other thing, too, is that it's important to

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Speaker 2: look at when you typically are managing a child's behavior

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Speaker 2: and you redirect them to something else that you feel

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Speaker 2: comfortable with them doing. Does that work in this situation?

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Speaker 2: That's a really important thing to consider this behavior. Is

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Speaker 2: it a one off thing? Is it just the exploration

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Speaker 2: that would be part of their self their sexual development

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Speaker 2: depending on their age and stage. And the most important

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Speaker 2: thing is that there is no fear or power imbalance,

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Speaker 2: That there's no violence or threats involved or forcing. So

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Speaker 2: that's I guess that's where it isn't a simple conversation.

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Speaker 2: And the other thing, and I'm conscious as I say

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Speaker 2: this that you know parents are listening and but I

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Speaker 2: just I have to be frank. Kids do what they

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Speaker 2: see often, so exposure to online content, what older kids

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Speaker 2: might be doing, movies, the parents own sexuality and domestic

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Speaker 2: violence is a huge factor in harmful sexual behavior amongst

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Speaker 2: peers and siblings, so we have to name that as well.

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Speaker 2: This isn't about blaming parents, but it is about parents

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Speaker 2: understanding that how they interact, particularly around power, has a

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Speaker 2: direct implication for how chill and may explore this in

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Speaker 2: their own development. Wow.

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Speaker 4: So important.

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Speaker 3: Now I'm going to assume based on what I've read

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Speaker 3: in this, and I recognize those contextual factors that you've

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Speaker 3: highlighted could steer.

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Speaker 4: This into a darker area.

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Speaker 3: But I'm going to assume that most parents who would

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Speaker 3: hear a scenario like that, and they're thinking of kids

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Speaker 3: between let's say three, four, five, six, maybe seven years

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Speaker 3: of age, are going to say the kids probably know better,

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Speaker 3: but they're curious, and they're exploring, they're experimenting, and that

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Speaker 3: conversation that you've highlighted is probably enough. But I want

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Speaker 3: to suggest as well, and I'm curious about your response

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Speaker 3: to this, would it be fair to say that kids

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Speaker 3: who could be as old as ten eleven, maybe even

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Speaker 3: twelve or thirteen might still be experimenting in a non

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Speaker 3: devious kind of way, even though they know that they

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Speaker 3: shouldn't be doing what they're doing, Like they know that

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Speaker 3: it's wrong, they know that they'll get in trouble.

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Speaker 4: For doing it.

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Speaker 3: Maybe there even is a slight power and balance, But

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Speaker 3: they're not doing it in a way where they're kind

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Speaker 3: of going, I'm doing the for gratification. They're doing it

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Speaker 3: because they're genuinely curious. They don't really get the ramifications

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Speaker 3: of what they're doing. They don't know why it's wrong

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Speaker 3: or how wrong it actually is. Am I soending too

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Speaker 3: much like an apologist for kids that are doing the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing?

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Speaker 4: Or is that a reasonable position to hold?

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Speaker 2: Look, I think that, you know, we do want to

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Speaker 2: give kids the benefit of the doubt, and it's probably

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Speaker 2: really important to say at this point to justin that

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Speaker 2: in the past there was a bit of a tendency

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Speaker 2: for professionals and society generally to apply labels such as perpetrator,

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Speaker 2: sexual offender to young people. And we do know that

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Speaker 2: the age of criminal responsibility is a lot lower in

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Speaker 2: Australia than in some other countries. However, so this is

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Speaker 2: a factor. So the ages that you've just mentioned, they

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Speaker 2: are ages where, depending on the circumstances, the police may

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Speaker 2: get involved or so a report to child protection services

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Speaker 2: may be indicated depending on what's happening. However, So that's

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Speaker 2: important that kids, you know, we don't want kids to

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Speaker 2: be naive to doing something that they think is silly

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Speaker 2: or they're experimenting, but however it could have major consequences

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Speaker 2: for them. So if we think about shoplifting, for example,

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Speaker 2: similar similar type of thing, they could end up in

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Speaker 2: a juvenile diversion or something could happen as a result

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Speaker 2: of that that they are not expecting. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's really important that that parents are talking to kids

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Speaker 2: generally about different stages of life and what society expects

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Speaker 2: from them. In terms of what you were saying with

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Speaker 2: you know, is it genuinely about curiosity. One of the

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Speaker 2: things to consider too is the wider family context and

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Speaker 2: the school context and what's happening for that child or

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Speaker 2: young person in terms of their developmental phase, and are

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Speaker 2: there any cognive to delays or any other emotional delays

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Speaker 2: which may be at play here as well? In terms

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Speaker 2: of as you suggest that they may know that it's wrong,

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Speaker 2: but still be engaging in the behavior, either because they

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Speaker 2: feel pressured, it feels good, or they're responding to some

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Speaker 2: kind of other external situation that they've been aware of,

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Speaker 2: such as something that they've seen online. Kids do learn

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Speaker 2: through exploring the world, and the consequences which come from

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Speaker 2: that are often how we gauge and we reset and go, oh, okay,

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Speaker 2: well I want to do that again, gosh. So I

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Speaker 2: think that that's an important factor, but it's actually up

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Speaker 2: to the adults in their lives to provide clear and

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Speaker 2: consistent messaging about what is okay and what isn't. And

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Speaker 2: so we also have to consider what we're role modeling

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Speaker 2: in our adult relationships, particularly that involve sexual contact. I

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Speaker 2: guess the other thing that is useful to consider is

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Speaker 2: what is the behavior communicating. So, for example, if we

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Speaker 2: are clear about what's occurred, and of course that your

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Speaker 2: original writers question, we don't know exactly what the experimenting was,

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Speaker 2: but it's useful as a parent to explore with your child.

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Speaker 2: Have they seen images online of a sexual content or

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Speaker 2: anything that's made them feel uncomfortable? If they have access

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Speaker 2: to pornography, how often are they doing that, and what

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Speaker 2: kind of pornography are they looking at. Checking with yourself

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Speaker 2: around what messages overtly or or accidentally you might be

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Speaker 2: giving them. I mean, we know lots of adult relationships

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Speaker 2: today are very much about hookups and tender and sex thing,

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Speaker 2: and so it could be that the child's also been

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Speaker 2: explored to some adults are exposed to some adult behaviors

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Speaker 2: which they than you know, they're trying to make sense

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Speaker 2: of in their play. So think about that in terms

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Speaker 2: of yourself as well, and do respond with your own curiosity,

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Speaker 2: be curious, not condemning, because that stuff is a great

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Speaker 2: way to build trust with your children over time and

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Speaker 2: to normalize conversations, particularly things like masturbation. And we should

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Speaker 2: be of course be talking about consent from an early

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Speaker 2: age as well and what that looks like. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think that children do get more and more curious about

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Speaker 2: sex and relationships in the ages that you've mentioned. They

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Speaker 2: it is of developmentally appropriate to have or want to

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Speaker 2: have romantic relationships, to use sexual language and make jokes

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Speaker 2: or discuss sexual acts with peers. Also to want more privacy.

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Speaker 2: That's normal in that stage of sexual development for a child.

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Speaker 2: The other thing is as you said the curiosity look

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Speaker 2: looking for information about sex in books, online, or in

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Speaker 2: the media, and this is where they may well be

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Speaker 2: accidentally exposed to adult content that might be quite disturbing

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Speaker 2: for them. Touching themselves or masturbating in private is also

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Speaker 2: normative in this age range. But remember it's uncommon for

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Speaker 2: children in that sort of age group to display sexual

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Speaker 2: behavior in a public place or display adult like sexual

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Speaker 2: behavior such as things like oral or genital sex. That's

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Speaker 2: not normal set part of sexual development in this.

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Speaker 3: Age There is so much to unpack or highlight in

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Speaker 3: what you've just said. I'm going to try to do

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Speaker 3: it like a thirty second summary, which doesn't do a justice,

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Speaker 3: before we take a break and come back in a

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Speaker 3: minute talk about a couple of other things. What I'm

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Speaker 3: hearing you say is that it's typical and normal development

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Speaker 3: from a sexual and psychological point of view for kids

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Speaker 3: to be curious and even to want to experiment, but

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Speaker 3: we want to make sure that there's nothing going on

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Speaker 3: in the environment that could provoke any predatory or harmful behavior,

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Speaker 3: things like pornography, major disruptions in the home, domestic violence,

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Speaker 3: those kinds of things.

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Speaker 4: And I'm also if I'm correct.

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Speaker 3: What I'm hearing you say is that as kids get older,

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Speaker 3: they may still have a desire to experiment, but they

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Speaker 3: typically will experiment privately rather than bringing other people in.

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Speaker 3: And once we start to have power imbalances, once we

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Speaker 3: start to have sexual gratification seeking rather than experimentation, we

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Speaker 3: might be starting to well, we are starting to tread

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Speaker 3: on some.

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Speaker 4: Pretty dangerous territory. Is that a reasonable summary?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it is, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, Well, I mean there's so much that we've

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Speaker 3: still got to be unpacked.

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Speaker 4: So after the break, we're going to talk about when things.

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Speaker 3: Start to get serious, how we can avoid downplaying things,

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Speaker 3: and how to understand what sibling sexual abuse is. And

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Speaker 3: we're also going to talk about what we can do

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Speaker 3: as parents to help our kids be protected.

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Speaker 4: From these kinds of challenges. That's right off the break.

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Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having

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Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts

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Speaker 5: of Disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits

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Speaker 5: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at Happy

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Speaker 5: families dot com dot au slash shop.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers. Now, normally we talk

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Speaker 3: about things to make family happier. Today, well, we're diving

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Speaker 3: into the dark side a little bit and tackling one

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Speaker 3: of the tough issues. We're talking about sibling sexual experimentation

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Speaker 3: that can, even in some cases, lead to abuse. Miranda

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Speaker 3: Bain from Act for Kids is joining me. Miranda acts

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Speaker 3: currently as the therapy services director for Act for Kids

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Speaker 3: and has been in that role for some time now

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Speaker 3: and has shed a lot of thought provoking ideas in

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Speaker 3: terms of a scenario that was presented to us by

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Speaker 3: somebody on Facebook who said, what I do when I

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Speaker 3: catch my kids sexually experimenting.

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Speaker 4: With one another?

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Speaker 3: Now, there was limited information, so we're kind of guessing

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Speaker 3: about a fair bit of this. But Miranda, let's carry

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Speaker 3: on this conversation now. Sibling sexual abuse, it's a reality.

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Speaker 3: It happens. It might be tempting sometimes for parents to

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Speaker 3: downplay it and think that it's just kids experimenting. How

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Speaker 3: do we know, how do we where do we draw

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Speaker 3: that line between experimentation and abuse? And how common is

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Speaker 3: sibling sexual abuse? Let's talk about that what predicts it,

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Speaker 3: where does it come from, how do we keep our

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Speaker 3: kids safe from it. I'd love for you to just

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Speaker 3: share for the next few minutes everything you can about

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Speaker 3: this particular area.

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Speaker 2: It's difficult to have specific research that relates to sibling

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Speaker 2: abuse justin because of the secrecy around this particular issue.

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Speaker 2: We do have parents who don't necessarily come forward and

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Speaker 2: seek support. Children don't always disclose. What we do know

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Speaker 2: is that siblings sexual abuse is very prevalent in harmful

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Speaker 2: sexual behavior generally. So if so, sometimes what can happen

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Speaker 2: is it can start with peers and then end up

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Speaker 2: coming into the home or vice versa. Because we do

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Speaker 2: know that children are usually opportunistic, it's about a situation.

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Speaker 2: Things can happen spontaneously. So access to siblings is if

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Speaker 2: one's considering experimentation, that's how that can arise. One in

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Speaker 2: four children in Australia in terms of our recent research,

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Speaker 2: who are sexually abused it is by a peer. So

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Speaker 2: we know that a significant amount of harmful sexual behavior

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Speaker 2: or abuse does occur between kids, and that's actually probably

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Speaker 2: more likely than from a stranger, for example. So I

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Speaker 2: think that's a really important message. We do know as

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Speaker 2: well that there are some kind of common characteristics that

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Speaker 2: happen for adults who abuse siblings and also friends or

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Speaker 2: in a peers. But there are some differences that I

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Speaker 2: have been able to find for you in this and

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Speaker 2: that's that greater that sibling rivalry is a factor in

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Speaker 2: sibling abuse sexual abuse, where it is more in that

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Speaker 2: harmful sexual behavior or concerning aspect of things. So sibling

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Speaker 2: rivalry and power and balances, as we described before, those

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Speaker 2: are factors in sibling abuse. And also, as we've again

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Speaker 2: touched on before, family dysfunction, a chaotic sort of household

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Speaker 2: and exposure to violence is a common factor. We we

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Speaker 2: do know, as I said before, that usually the selection

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Speaker 2: of who the targeted child is is usually opportunistic. And

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Speaker 2: as I said, you know, kids are together, they're at home,

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Speaker 2: sometimes they are sharing rooms. But we also know that

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Speaker 2: a lot of the behavior that can occur between kids

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Speaker 2: is guided through their experience of witnessing online content or

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Speaker 2: learning it from friends. So we found that about seventy

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Speaker 2: eight percent of kids who were engaging in harmful sexual

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Speaker 2: behavior had been prompted as a result of looking at

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Speaker 2: sexually explicit materials online. And a further seventy two percent

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Speaker 2: who were engaging in the behavior also found that they

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Speaker 2: were learning about it from friends, So you know, you

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Speaker 2: learn about things at school and then you you potentially

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Speaker 2: are bringing that home.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they're extraordinary numbers.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's a really high number of kids that

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Speaker 3: are being influenced in that way. Which goes back to

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Speaker 3: that conversation we had about two weeks ago, I think

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Speaker 3: it was Tuesday, two weeks ago, with Kristen Jensen from

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Speaker 3: Defend Young Minds about how important it is to have

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Speaker 3: conversations about explicit imagery, about pornography with our kids.

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Speaker 4: Just as I'm listening to you.

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Speaker 3: Go through these stats, I'm curious and I have my suspicions,

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Speaker 3: But have you found that there's a gender difference males

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Speaker 3: more likely to be involved in causing harm in this

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Speaker 3: way than females.

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Speaker 2: It's really an interesting question, isn't it. I have anecdotally

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Speaker 2: my understanding from the services that we provide and some

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Speaker 2: recent discussions that I had with staff who work in

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Speaker 2: the field of child sexual abuse and also harmful sexual

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Speaker 2: behavior treatment that under ten, it's often common for girl

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Speaker 2: children to be the instigators. Over ten, it's more common

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Speaker 2: and with adolescence for a b to be the instigator

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Speaker 2: of the activity or the abuse if its abuse. So, yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's some a little bit of stuff there. Certainly our

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Speaker 2: statistics are hard because probably more males are taken through

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Speaker 2: the juvenile justice system and there's you know, harder consequences

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Speaker 2: that would come through. I would perhaps, you know, wonder

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Speaker 2: if when it is girls, or if it's girls two

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Speaker 2: girls together, whether it may not be treated in quite

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Speaker 2: the same way as a boy with a girl or

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Speaker 2: a boy and boy. I think that that there's often

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Speaker 2: a not trivializing, but sometimes people relate to female sexuality

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Speaker 2: in a different way than they do male sexuality.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have no doubt that there would be some

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Speaker 3: sort of a minimizing of it if it were girls.

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Speaker 4: That seems to be.

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Speaker 3: A cultural, a sociocultural response wants to female sexuality across

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Speaker 3: the board. That also strikes me is interesting from the

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Speaker 3: point of view that when we look at research, not

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Speaker 3: that we've got great research on it, it's still so

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Speaker 3: hard to get good data, but it seems that boys

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Speaker 3: tend to on average, be exposed whether intentionally or unintentionally.

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Speaker 3: They tend to be exposed to pornography around about the

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Speaker 3: age of ten to eleven, and it's curious. We've got

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Speaker 3: testosterone kicking it in, we've got increased interest in sexuality.

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Speaker 3: That's where the pornography comes in. And we've got reasonable

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Speaker 3: evidence now that pawn really does harm kids. It changes

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Speaker 3: their beliefs about sex and sexuality and intimacy. And once

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Speaker 3: you change somebody's beliefs, you're quite likely to change their behaviors.

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Speaker 3: So everything that you've said there kind of sits within

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Speaker 3: that broader landscape of what our kids are being exposed

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Speaker 3: to and highlights how important is that we protect them.

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Speaker 3: Maybe we can wrap up the conversation with just a

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Speaker 3: handful of tips what comparents do. The idea is that

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Speaker 3: people don't assault others, right. The idea is that we

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Speaker 3: stop those who committing acts of abuse, whether intentionally or

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Speaker 3: out of experimentation. We stop them from doing that. But

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Speaker 3: we know that we don't live in a perfect world,

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Speaker 3: and we want to help our kids to be protected

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Speaker 3: and to defend themselves if they encounter somebody who might

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Speaker 3: try to act on them in this way. So I

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Speaker 3: want to be sensitive around asking that question, because really

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Speaker 3: it shouldn't be up to the kids to protect themselves. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 3: because of the world we live in, every parent wants

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Speaker 3: to know how can I keep my kids safe? What

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Speaker 3: would be your general tips maybe two, three, four, five

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Speaker 3: tips to help parents to navigate this with their children

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Speaker 3: sensitively and in age appropriate ways.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and yes, it is very much the case that

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Speaker 2: adults need to take responsibility for protecting children, and that

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Speaker 2: part of that is actually teaching kids that it's okay

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Speaker 2: to speak up for themselves and that when they do

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Speaker 2: share something that's a worry to them, that they'll be believed,

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Speaker 2: that they'll be reassured that that adult will do their

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Speaker 2: best to help and suff work to address whatever that

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Speaker 2: might be. And I guess the other thing too, is

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Speaker 2: that just to reassure folks that it is really about listening.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes we you know, we think as parents it's

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Speaker 2: about teaching and telling and having all the answers. Actually

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Speaker 2: with guiding your child through their healthy sexual development, it's

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Speaker 2: actually very much about listening and taking cues from them.

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Speaker 2: So we want to consider things like early protective behavior training.

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Speaker 2: And this is you know, we know even throughout research

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Speaker 2: that ACT for Kids has done that parents do believe

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Speaker 2: that probably after age five that protective behavior training should

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Speaker 2: occur and kids should know body part names and that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing as they're entering school. However, we believe

440
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 2: that actually kids do need to know younger than that age,

441
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: and even naming the parts when you're changing a nappy

442
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: or or helping with toileting is a really useful thing.

443
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: And the other thing to really remember is it's so

444
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 2: important that kids know the accurate body part names. So

445
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: you know, we don't call an elbow something random. We

446
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: call it an elbow. So it's really important that we're

447
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 2: using the proper names for genitalia and that kids know

448
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: those names from an early age. Even if you have

449
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: other silly names you use for other things, it is

450
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 2: important that they know the typer names.

451
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 3: So Miranda, I've got to jump in here as well

452
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 3: because something that something that I've been corrected on and

453
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: I think that it is right is and I'm speaking

454
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: specifically about female anatomy here, the area surrounding the vagina

455
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,439
Speaker 3: is called the labia. We shouldn't call the entire area

456
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 3: the vagina, because if a child does encounter somebody who

457
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: inappropriately touches them, they need to be able to say

458
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: what has been touched. And having that level of knowledge

459
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: helping them to understand that anatomical difference between labya and

460
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 3: vagina is a really it's a really important difference.

461
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 2: Look, I probably would use the term volver to describe

462
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 2: the the female genitalia as an entirety. The labia are

463
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: normally considered to be the external and external part. Then

464
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 2: you kind of you've got the clitorists and the vagina,

465
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: and it is really you're you're so right there. The

466
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 2: vagina is important if we're talking about any kind of

467
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 2: penetrative things that have occurred. Obviously, girls need to know

468
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 2: about their vagina for things like menstruation. That's so important

469
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: for them, as well as of course reproductive health. But

470
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,959
Speaker 2: you're right, the vagina is simply an opening into the body.

471
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: But we would typically in our work refer to it

472
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: as the vulgar and the penis, of course, but it's

473
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 2: good for boys to also know that they have testicles

474
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 2: and you know, the other bits of their body. So

475
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: I guess that's where we can go to, you know,

476
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 2: some of those old school books and kind of show

477
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 2: children what they have and and depending on how you know,

478
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: how normal nudity is in your household, it may well

479
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: be that your children have seen you naked and that

480
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: that's okay in your household. That's I guess. One of

481
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: the things that I think is important to consider when

482
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: you are wanting to keep your kids safe is think

483
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 2: about what your culture is in the home and whether

484
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: or not you would feel just as comfortable with a

485
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: child being exposed to your cultural norms in somebody else's home. So,

486
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 2: for example, you know, we want to raise children to

487
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: be healthy, functional, safe adults and young people. So when

488
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: kids start going on sleepovers and things you know you want,

489
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: you wouldn't, one presumes, walk around with just a towel

490
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: or nude going from the bathroom to the bedroom to

491
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 2: get dressed if there was a child, a child's friend over.

492
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 2: So I guess it's important for adults to remember that

493
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,640
Speaker 2: kids don't necessarily pick on those pick up on the nuances. So,

494
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: oh well, if it's normal this that you know, dad,

495
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 2: I'm just being very general here. Dad comes home from

496
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: rugby practice and Juck's in the shower and then you know,

497
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: runs runs to the bedroom and puts his clothes on.

498
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 2: But there might be you know, a shot of a

499
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: bum if you looked up that might be normal in

500
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 2: that household and completely fine, but the child needs to

501
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 2: understand that that only would happen when it's just special,

502
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: you know, certain people in the house, and that it's

503
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: not about inflicting that on someone else. So we do

504
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 2: need to think about what's normal in your household and

505
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: also consider as kids are developing, because privacy becomes a

506
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: real thing for them, particularly in the age ranges we've

507
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: mostly been talking about today, and so things like knocking

508
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: on their doors, having conversations about bathrooms, who's allowed in

509
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: the bathroom when you are showering, who's allowed in the

510
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: bathroom when you're going to the toilet. Those are the

511
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: things that in some households there may be blurred boundaries

512
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: around that, and so it's really good to name that

513
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: so that the child doesn't go into someone else's house

514
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: and actually, you know, feel mortified because they've done something

515
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: and been pulled up by you know, their friend's parent

516
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: or or being embarrassed by the friends reaction. So that's

517
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 2: one of the I almost call it like a duty

518
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 2: of care that we have to to make sure that

519
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: our rules at home are not random, you know, random

520
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: and very different from what they might expect out there.

521
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: So in terms of what you're saying, yes, kids need

522
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: to know their their pop anatomical names for their body parts.

523
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: They also need to know what's public and private. So

524
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 2: we generally in our work we talk about public being

525
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 2: bits that you see when people have clothes on or on.

526
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 2: Given we're in Australia and lots of folks go to

527
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: the beach and swimming, thinking about the private parts or

528
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 2: what's typically covered by your swim your swimming costume, but

529
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: also to consider touching, So what what parts are open

530
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: and not okay to be touched by someone else and

531
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: in what context? That's really important and it's important, I guess,

532
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: to be hearing from your child what they who they

533
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: think those safe people might be or in what context.

534
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: And it's also really important to be identifying with them

535
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: that they have the right to say no to someone

536
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: touching with them and talking about consent early. So there

537
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: could be, you know, it could be that you always

538
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: have to kind of notice that the child doesn't really

539
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: want to hug a particular relation who comes now. It

540
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: might be because they don't really like hugging generally, or

541
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: it might be this particular relative is not appealing to

542
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: them to hug They need to have the right to

543
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: say no. They need to explore other options of breeding

544
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: that person high fives, fist bumps, whatever it might be.

545
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: That still acknowledging that relationship, but doesn't mean that they

546
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: have to be hugged. We shouldn't be forcing kids to

547
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: be hugged by other people. I know that some of

548
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 2: your listeners will probably think that that's that's a bit

549
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: over the top, but I think that it is important

550
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: because if we're forcing someone to sit on Santa's knee,

551
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: if we're forcing someone to hug you know, grandpa, we

552
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: need to have kids understand that when they feel like

553
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: something's not right in their in their belly, or in

554
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: their you know, anywhere else will they where they feel concerned,

555
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 2: that they can act on that and they can say no,

556
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 2: and that that's going to be respected. And if we

557
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 2: don't actually model that at home and respect that, then

558
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: we've got how on earth can we expect them to

559
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,719
Speaker 2: stick to their guns out in the real, you know,

560
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 2: out in the bigger world, particularly as it comes to

561
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: to dating and other relationships. The other thing that's really

562
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: important that we talk to kids about is safe and

563
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: unsafe secrets. So you know, there's secrets like, oh, we're

564
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: keeping it a secret that we're having a surprise party

565
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: for Auntie and it's going to be at our house.

566
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: That's super cool and that it's fun, but that's actually

567
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 2: almost like a surprise. So it's a special secret that

568
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: we're keeping because it's about keeping the surprise from Auntie

569
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: because she's going to have a fun time at her birthday.

570
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 2: That's really different to someone using tactics, which might involve

571
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: threat for example, and saying, well, if you don't, I'm

572
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 2: going to I'm going to touch your willy and if

573
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 2: you tell anyone, I'm going to take a you know,

574
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: do something horrible to your family, or hurt your dog

575
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: or throw or if it's a sibling, they might say,

576
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 2: I'm I'm going to ruin your favorite toy and throw

577
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: it out the window or you know, so those sorts

578
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 2: of things. So a child may sometimes keep a secret

579
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: out of fear, and that's quite different to keeping a

580
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 2: secret out of excitement.

581
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 4: Miranda.

582
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 3: As we've had this conversation, there are obviously so many

583
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: different pathways that we could go to explore to get

584
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: more information. Unfortunately, time is going to beat us here.

585
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: Any last thoughts, any other points that people should be

586
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 3: aware of, any resources that you might direct people too

587
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 3: so that they can help their children to be be safe.

588
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 2: Yes, it is a big topic and I appreciate that

589
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: we have very little time to kind of devotees, and

590
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: I think, yes, it's really important to have protective behavior training.

591
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: A number of schools in Queensland are offering that through

592
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: a range of modalities. App for Kids has a program

593
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 2: which is a gold standard, evidence based protective behaviors program

594
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 2: for young children and that's you can read about that

595
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: on our website. There's certainly some great materials on True

596
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: True's websites, so folks may know of them as Scanily

597
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: Planning Queensland. They've got some excellent resources on typical development

598
00:34:55,000 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 2: for children and ways to encourage protective behaviors. Similarly, well,

599
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: there's just yeah, there's a number of agencies that do

600
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: that and certainly if you do google it you'll come

601
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 2: up with a lot of options. But I would encourage

602
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 2: you to go to reputable agencies and look at their

603
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: websites first. Australian Childhood Foundation is another great example with

604
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: great resources. The other thing to consider that I do

605
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: think is really important is that if your child is

606
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: engaging in a behavior and you do need to do

607
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: something about it, reach out for help. Because we do know,

608
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: and this is just to reassure parents, the absolute majority

609
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 2: of kids who engage in even harmful sexual behavior do

610
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: not grow up to become pedophiles. Typically that that is

611
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: not what the research shows. The research shows literally that

612
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: sometimes some kids grow out of it and they just

613
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 2: start engaging in normal dating type behavior. But we don't

614
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: want to ignore it at the same time, because the

615
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 2: reality is there was someone, if it is a harmful

616
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: sexual behavior situation, there was a child who was victimized

617
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: by that, who did feel coerced or controlled or violated

618
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: and abused, and we can't neglect their reality too. So

619
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: if you're talking about siblings and managing that, it's really

620
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: important to consider their relationship and preserving their sibling relationship.

621
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 2: We don't want to have things get swept under the

622
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: carpet or only one child received support and the other

623
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: one get banished to Siberia. That's no good for the family.

624
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: And we really again know that the best work that's

625
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 2: happening in this space at the moment is family based work.

626
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: It's environmental work that often includes schools and other supports,

627
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: and that it's you're part of a care team. And

628
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: I guess the last message I would say is please

629
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: talk to your kids continuously and honestly and listen to them.

630
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: That's probably a really important message.

631
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 3: Miranda Bayin, the director of therapy services for ACT for Kids,

632
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: an important conversation. Thanks so much for your time.

633
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 2: Thank you, Justin, have a great day.

634
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 3: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rulon from

635
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 3: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For all

636
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 3: of the resources that Miranda has highlighted and others, you

637
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: can check the show notes for today's podcast. I'm sure

638
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 3: that you'll find that helpful, and if you'd like more

639
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 3: info about keeping your family safe and making your family happy,

640
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 3: visit us at happyfamilies dot com dot a u