WEBVTT - The Guy Who Wants To Normalise Cheating 😶

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<v Speaker 1>Flex and Frooms Flex and Firms. This is the Flex

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<v Speaker 1>and Frooms catch up podcast Flexing Frooms.

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<v Speaker 2>On CATA last week and maybe even the week before,

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<v Speaker 2>I talked about not taking the bait and recognizing when

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<v Speaker 2>you are being the victim of chaos marketing and outrage

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<v Speaker 2>marketing and sometimes you should just scroll away. But I

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<v Speaker 2>saw maybe thirteen seconds of a bro podcast and no shade,

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<v Speaker 2>we love them, obsessed with a bro podcast, a bro

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<v Speaker 2>radio show, obsessed with the patriarchy.

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<v Speaker 1>You ate, come on, come through.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I thought I was hearing was a man

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<v Speaker 2>trying to make a compelling case for why we should

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<v Speaker 2>normalize cheating. And I want you to hear it through me.

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<v Speaker 3>If infidelity is something that happens so often, it happens,

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<v Speaker 3>and I would say probably at least half of the

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<v Speaker 3>relationships in people's lives at least at one point in time,

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<v Speaker 3>So if we were able to accept it as a norm,

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<v Speaker 3>and it would have less shame attached to it, less Hey,

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<v Speaker 3>it's about me being like, I don't know why women

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<v Speaker 3>be like.

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<v Speaker 1>Can I are you speaking about? Are you speaking to people? Oh?

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<v Speaker 2>He said what he selded for the best, And maybe

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<v Speaker 2>that's why I only heard thirteen seconds of it, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I don't want to put words in his mouth,

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<v Speaker 2>but I will. What I imagine he's saying is that because

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<v Speaker 2>cheating happens so often, we should stop regarding it as

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<v Speaker 2>something that's in the realm of impossibility, and the more

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<v Speaker 2>we expect for it to happen and normalize it, we

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<v Speaker 2>can take the shame out of it, and therefore it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't become a symbol of a bad relationship.

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<v Speaker 1>Hmmm hmmm.

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<v Speaker 2>I will say, had he have articulated himself better, I

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<v Speaker 2>would give him the benefit of the doubt. But I

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<v Speaker 2>think I've added the nuance that was not there, and

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<v Speaker 2>so for his argument, you did not eat. But I

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<v Speaker 2>can understand what he's saying. For example, right, how does

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<v Speaker 2>something move from niche to mainstream. A bunch of people

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<v Speaker 2>do it, support it, normalize it, and suddenly you have

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<v Speaker 2>the breadth and depth to just make it a regular

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<v Speaker 2>thing like women in the workforce.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, not necessarily against it?

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<v Speaker 1>Would I vote for it? Again?

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<v Speaker 4>No? I really know. Am I on the front line? Unfortunately?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Are we the suffragettes? I've had enough?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I understand the idea of are we only

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<v Speaker 2>causing it ourselves more pain by viewing this commonplace thing

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<v Speaker 2>as such a negative.

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<v Speaker 1>Why don't we do better? Ester Parrell? Oh have you

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<v Speaker 1>heard of her?

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<v Speaker 4>I have?

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<v Speaker 2>Esta Parrell, leading psychotherapist author podcaster has a really, really

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<v Speaker 2>progressive take on infidelity and says it should be an

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<v Speaker 2>opportunity to start and accelerate a relationship as opposed to

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<v Speaker 2>it being the end. And also one of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>points she makes that cheating is rarely about the partner.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a self interested and selfish act generally, and you

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<v Speaker 2>you do yourself a disservice trying to internalize it. She

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<v Speaker 2>has this book called State of Affairs which talks a

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<v Speaker 2>lot about that. So what I've done is I've gone

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<v Speaker 2>to good Reads, as I like to do, to pull

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<v Speaker 2>out some quotes and.

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<v Speaker 4>Read some savage reviews. We will feeling bad about yourself.

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<v Speaker 2>But I want to read you maybe four or five

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<v Speaker 2>quotes so you get like a pretty varied view of

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<v Speaker 2>what she thinks or how she thinks about infidelity, and

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<v Speaker 2>then we can talk about whether or not we can

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<v Speaker 2>make a case for getting cheated on next year.

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<v Speaker 4>Love it.

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<v Speaker 1>This year it's not a good time for me.

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<v Speaker 4>I need to put some runs on the board.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah a few months with ye man.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Ess says, we expect one person to give us

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<v Speaker 2>what once an entire village used to provide, and we

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<v Speaker 2>live twice as long. There's something there. There's something there

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<v Speaker 2>because realistically, I feel like we've had conversations before about

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<v Speaker 2>having friends for certain things, but people have said it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite transactionally, be like that's my party friend, that's my

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<v Speaker 2>work friend, that's my school friend. But realistically it helps

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<v Speaker 2>you assess how much you can expect from them and

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<v Speaker 2>how much willing to give to them. This idea of

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<v Speaker 2>us living even three times as long as we used to,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a lot of pressure to put on one person

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<v Speaker 2>to show up and evolve at the same pace. You're

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<v Speaker 2>evolving in the same way. You're evolving for the same

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<v Speaker 2>common goal. I don't want to do that anyway. Here's

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<v Speaker 2>another one. Our partners do not belong to us debdable.

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<v Speaker 2>They are only on loan with an option to renew

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<v Speaker 2>or not. Didn't I say this friendship expiry dates? No,

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<v Speaker 2>not want to expiry dates.

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<v Speaker 1>Reviews.

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<v Speaker 2>Knowing that we can lose them does not have to

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<v Speaker 2>undermine commitment. Rather, it mandates an active engagement that long

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<v Speaker 2>term couples often lose. The realization that our loved ones

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<v Speaker 2>are forever elusive should jolt us out of complacency in

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<v Speaker 2>the most positive sense. So what she's kind of saying is,

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<v Speaker 2>if you truly recognize that your partner is not yours

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<v Speaker 2>to keep forever, and that you do need to in

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<v Speaker 2>some ways entice them to stay with you, it should

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<v Speaker 2>excite you to keep them nearby, as opposed to developing

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<v Speaker 2>these really repelling behaviors and then getting confused a cheat.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh come on a broad podcast. I feel like I'm

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<v Speaker 1>on the side. Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>Another one, the shift from shame to guilt is crucial.

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<v Speaker 2>Shame is a state of self absorption, while guilt is

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<v Speaker 2>an emphatic relational response inspired by the hurt you've caused.

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<v Speaker 1>Another imagine someone hurting your feeling. You're like, let's move

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<v Speaker 1>that from shame to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's move that because if you really think about it,

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<v Speaker 2>Let's say I've offended you, right, I've said something out

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<v Speaker 2>of pocket, and all I'm doing is like being really

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<v Speaker 2>self interesting, like I'm so, I feel so embarrassed I

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<v Speaker 2>did that to you.

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<v Speaker 4>Be guilty, and what be guilty and own up to it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 4>how do you get out of guilt?

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like for this purpose you want to stay

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<v Speaker 1>in there.

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<v Speaker 2>If you've cheated what, I don't know.

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<v Speaker 4>Can we just keep doing it?

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<v Speaker 2>I just don't know how much capacity do you really

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<v Speaker 2>have to forgive? Because I think I'm a forget not forgive.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh really, I'm gonna let it go. I'm not going

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<v Speaker 2>to bring it up. I think I'm the opposite.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to hold onto what.

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<v Speaker 4>In my horror, I have this purge sensation I have

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<v Speaker 4>to forgive. I can't forget unless I forgive. Like, to me,

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<v Speaker 4>they're both together. I can't just like let something slide

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<v Speaker 4>and forget about it. But then again, I've not been

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<v Speaker 4>in a situation where I've been cheated on or vice versa.

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think this is where my avoidant tendencies come out,

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<v Speaker 2>because what I do I like to self soothe and

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<v Speaker 2>make myself feel better by any means necessary. So often

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<v Speaker 2>having to wait for someone to feel like repentant or

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<v Speaker 2>shameful keeps me in this space where I prefer to

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<v Speaker 2>be in denial about being hurt.

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<v Speaker 4>True, that's very you. Thank you and good on you

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<v Speaker 4>for realizing hun thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>I love good reads? Do we love good reads?

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<v Speaker 4>Do you have good reviews on your book?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Monogamy used to mean one.

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<v Speaker 4>Person a success experiment by Lilian An What a name,

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<v Speaker 4>what a woman.

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<v Speaker 1>We should bring that back. Lillian A.

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<v Speaker 4>Hen Can, best selling author, podcaster, business woman.

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<v Speaker 1>Pre episode plug is something fresh. We've not done that before.

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<v Speaker 1>It's no, it's mid episode. It's like a it's like

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<v Speaker 1>a mad read.

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<v Speaker 4>You've actually sponsored the show post PREMI Donner.

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<v Speaker 1>She's wearing the whole kid. We got to keep it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's circular economy.

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<v Speaker 4>Soorry small woman owned business support local.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been listening to The Flex and Froom's daily podcast.

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<v Speaker 3>For more, Tune in Deicater on DAB or stream it

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<v Speaker 3>on iHeartRadio.