Speaker 1: Flex and Frooms Flex and Firms. This is the Flex
Speaker 1: and Frooms catch up podcast Flexing Frooms.
Speaker 2: On CATA last week and maybe even the week before,
Speaker 2: I talked about not taking the bait and recognizing when
Speaker 2: you are being the victim of chaos marketing and outrage
Speaker 2: marketing and sometimes you should just scroll away. But I
Speaker 2: saw maybe thirteen seconds of a bro podcast and no shade,
Speaker 2: we love them, obsessed with a bro podcast, a bro
Speaker 2: radio show, obsessed with the patriarchy.
Speaker 1: You ate, come on, come through.
Speaker 2: But what I thought I was hearing was a man
Speaker 2: trying to make a compelling case for why we should
Speaker 2: normalize cheating. And I want you to hear it through me.
Speaker 3: If infidelity is something that happens so often, it happens,
Speaker 3: and I would say probably at least half of the
Speaker 3: relationships in people's lives at least at one point in time,
Speaker 3: So if we were able to accept it as a norm,
Speaker 3: and it would have less shame attached to it, less Hey,
Speaker 3: it's about me being like, I don't know why women
Speaker 3: be like.
Speaker 1: Can I are you speaking about? Are you speaking to people? Oh?
Speaker 2: He said what he selded for the best, And maybe
Speaker 2: that's why I only heard thirteen seconds of it, and
Speaker 2: so I don't want to put words in his mouth,
Speaker 2: but I will. What I imagine he's saying is that because
Speaker 2: cheating happens so often, we should stop regarding it as
Speaker 2: something that's in the realm of impossibility, and the more
Speaker 2: we expect for it to happen and normalize it, we
Speaker 2: can take the shame out of it, and therefore it
Speaker 2: doesn't become a symbol of a bad relationship.
Speaker 1: Hmmm hmmm.
Speaker 2: I will say, had he have articulated himself better, I
Speaker 2: would give him the benefit of the doubt. But I
Speaker 2: think I've added the nuance that was not there, and
Speaker 2: so for his argument, you did not eat. But I
Speaker 2: can understand what he's saying. For example, right, how does
Speaker 2: something move from niche to mainstream. A bunch of people
Speaker 2: do it, support it, normalize it, and suddenly you have
Speaker 2: the breadth and depth to just make it a regular
Speaker 2: thing like women in the workforce.
Speaker 4: Oh, not necessarily against it?
Speaker 1: Would I vote for it? Again?
Speaker 4: No? I really know. Am I on the front line? Unfortunately?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Are we the suffragettes? I've had enough?
Speaker 2: Okay, So I understand the idea of are we only
Speaker 2: causing it ourselves more pain by viewing this commonplace thing
Speaker 2: as such a negative.
Speaker 1: Why don't we do better? Ester Parrell? Oh have you
Speaker 1: heard of her?
Speaker 4: I have?
Speaker 2: Esta Parrell, leading psychotherapist author podcaster has a really, really
Speaker 2: progressive take on infidelity and says it should be an
Speaker 2: opportunity to start and accelerate a relationship as opposed to
Speaker 2: it being the end. And also one of the biggest
Speaker 2: points she makes that cheating is rarely about the partner.
Speaker 2: It's a self interested and selfish act generally, and you
Speaker 2: you do yourself a disservice trying to internalize it. She
Speaker 2: has this book called State of Affairs which talks a
Speaker 2: lot about that. So what I've done is I've gone
Speaker 2: to good Reads, as I like to do, to pull
Speaker 2: out some quotes and.
Speaker 4: Read some savage reviews. We will feeling bad about yourself.
Speaker 2: But I want to read you maybe four or five
Speaker 2: quotes so you get like a pretty varied view of
Speaker 2: what she thinks or how she thinks about infidelity, and
Speaker 2: then we can talk about whether or not we can
Speaker 2: make a case for getting cheated on next year.
Speaker 4: Love it.
Speaker 1: This year it's not a good time for me.
Speaker 4: I need to put some runs on the board.
Speaker 1: Yeah a few months with ye man.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Ess says, we expect one person to give us
Speaker 2: what once an entire village used to provide, and we
Speaker 2: live twice as long. There's something there. There's something there
Speaker 2: because realistically, I feel like we've had conversations before about
Speaker 2: having friends for certain things, but people have said it's
Speaker 2: quite transactionally, be like that's my party friend, that's my
Speaker 2: work friend, that's my school friend. But realistically it helps
Speaker 2: you assess how much you can expect from them and
Speaker 2: how much willing to give to them. This idea of
Speaker 2: us living even three times as long as we used to,
Speaker 2: that's a lot of pressure to put on one person
Speaker 2: to show up and evolve at the same pace. You're
Speaker 2: evolving in the same way. You're evolving for the same
Speaker 2: common goal. I don't want to do that anyway. Here's
Speaker 2: another one. Our partners do not belong to us debdable.
Speaker 2: They are only on loan with an option to renew
Speaker 2: or not. Didn't I say this friendship expiry dates? No,
Speaker 2: not want to expiry dates.
Speaker 1: Reviews.
Speaker 2: Knowing that we can lose them does not have to
Speaker 2: undermine commitment. Rather, it mandates an active engagement that long
Speaker 2: term couples often lose. The realization that our loved ones
Speaker 2: are forever elusive should jolt us out of complacency in
Speaker 2: the most positive sense. So what she's kind of saying is,
Speaker 2: if you truly recognize that your partner is not yours
Speaker 2: to keep forever, and that you do need to in
Speaker 2: some ways entice them to stay with you, it should
Speaker 2: excite you to keep them nearby, as opposed to developing
Speaker 2: these really repelling behaviors and then getting confused a cheat.
Speaker 1: Oh come on a broad podcast. I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: on the side. Okay.
Speaker 2: Another one, the shift from shame to guilt is crucial.
Speaker 2: Shame is a state of self absorption, while guilt is
Speaker 2: an emphatic relational response inspired by the hurt you've caused.
Speaker 1: Another imagine someone hurting your feeling. You're like, let's move
Speaker 1: that from shame to you.
Speaker 2: Let's move that because if you really think about it,
Speaker 2: Let's say I've offended you, right, I've said something out
Speaker 2: of pocket, and all I'm doing is like being really
Speaker 2: self interesting, like I'm so, I feel so embarrassed I
Speaker 2: did that to you.
Speaker 4: Be guilty, and what be guilty and own up to it. Yeah,
Speaker 4: how do you get out of guilt?
Speaker 1: I feel like for this purpose you want to stay
Speaker 1: in there.
Speaker 2: If you've cheated what, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Can we just keep doing it?
Speaker 2: I just don't know how much capacity do you really
Speaker 2: have to forgive? Because I think I'm a forget not forgive.
Speaker 2: Oh really, I'm gonna let it go. I'm not going
Speaker 2: to bring it up. I think I'm the opposite.
Speaker 1: I'm going to hold onto what.
Speaker 4: In my horror, I have this purge sensation I have
Speaker 4: to forgive. I can't forget unless I forgive. Like, to me,
Speaker 4: they're both together. I can't just like let something slide
Speaker 4: and forget about it. But then again, I've not been
Speaker 4: in a situation where I've been cheated on or vice versa.
Speaker 1: I haven't.
Speaker 2: But I think this is where my avoidant tendencies come out,
Speaker 2: because what I do I like to self soothe and
Speaker 2: make myself feel better by any means necessary. So often
Speaker 2: having to wait for someone to feel like repentant or
Speaker 2: shameful keeps me in this space where I prefer to
Speaker 2: be in denial about being hurt.
Speaker 4: True, that's very you. Thank you and good on you
Speaker 4: for realizing hun thank you.
Speaker 1: I love good reads? Do we love good reads?
Speaker 4: Do you have good reviews on your book?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Monogamy used to mean one.
Speaker 4: Person a success experiment by Lilian An What a name,
Speaker 4: what a woman.
Speaker 1: We should bring that back. Lillian A.
Speaker 4: Hen Can, best selling author, podcaster, business woman.
Speaker 1: Pre episode plug is something fresh. We've not done that before.
Speaker 1: It's no, it's mid episode. It's like a it's like
Speaker 1: a mad read.
Speaker 4: You've actually sponsored the show post PREMI Donner.
Speaker 1: She's wearing the whole kid. We got to keep it.
Speaker 1: That's circular economy.
Speaker 4: Soorry small woman owned business support local.
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