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Speaker 1: Three sixty with Katie Wolf on Mixed one oh four

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Speaker 1: point nine thanks to Joyce Main Darwin.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to Mix oneow four point nine three sixty.

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Speaker 2: Now I'll tell you what we're catching up with this

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Speaker 2: man just about every day before the Northern Territory election.

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Speaker 2: The Northern Territory Electoral Commissioner in Logan Ethan joins me

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Speaker 2: in the studio right now. Good morning to you.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Katie.

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Speaker 2: I've let you off for a couple of months not

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Speaker 2: make to come in every day like you were doing

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Speaker 2: in the lead up to the election. It's always a

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Speaker 2: busy time for you election time, and you've now released

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Speaker 2: the report for the twenty twenty Legislative Assembly election twenty

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Speaker 2: two Recommendations to modernize democracy in the Northern Territory. I

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Speaker 2: know that there's there's some changes really that could potentially

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Speaker 2: have had an impact at the last election, couldn't.

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Speaker 3: They Look Yes, Katie, look what we had at the

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Speaker 3: last election was you know, as I've said to you

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Speaker 3: on many occasions, is that the seats in the territory

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Speaker 3: is small, so we're always going to have have small margins,

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Speaker 3: and it was ridiculously small at the last election. Just

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Speaker 3: five for the division of Berkley and thirteen for the

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Speaker 3: Division of Blaine. So once you go through the report

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Speaker 3: and you look at some of the issues and you

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Speaker 3: look at all the data, we certainly had issues with

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Speaker 3: postal voting generally, like a lot of people didn't sign it,

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Speaker 3: or they didn't date it right, or they didn't provide ID,

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Speaker 3: so those votes weren't counted. And what we had at

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Speaker 3: the prisons this year is usually we go on mobile

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Speaker 3: polar prisons, but this year because of they had the

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Speaker 3: riots there and then because of COVID and social distancing,

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Speaker 3: Corrections came to us and said, or we met with

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Speaker 3: Corrections and they said, look, you can't mobile poll because

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Speaker 3: we can't really guarantee your safety. So we have to

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Speaker 3: look at some alternative, and the only real alternative was

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Speaker 3: postal voting, and we certainly worked with prisons, sorry, with Corrections,

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Speaker 3: I should say, to provide that service both to make

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Speaker 3: sure that in that were entitled to be on the

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Speaker 3: roll were enrolled and also to make sure that they

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Speaker 3: could vote. But as you know, postal voting is a

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Speaker 3: lot more complicated than normal voting. You know, you need

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Speaker 3: to sign the back of the envelope, you need to

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Speaker 3: date it, you need to put a time, You need

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Speaker 3: to provide some ID, which is usually a driver's license.

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Speaker 3: And if you don't have a driver's license, which is

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Speaker 3: the case with the majority of inmates, because they just

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Speaker 3: even if they have a license, they're not walking around

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Speaker 3: with ID, it means that you need you need to

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Speaker 3: have someone to attest to your identity, right, so they

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Speaker 3: need to sign it. And so with all these little things,

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Speaker 3: things go wrong. So we had a number of instances

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Speaker 3: where votes weren't signed, they weren't dated, and unfortunately those

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Speaker 3: votes cannot be admitted.

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Speaker 1: To the count.

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Speaker 2: How many are we talking?

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Speaker 3: Look, look, let me just say this is just not

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Speaker 3: an issue in terms of like corrections. You know, we

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Speaker 3: had at our own voting centers people making mistakes where

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Speaker 3: they where they provided a provisional vote where it wasn't assigned,

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Speaker 3: and you know, some of that sometimes it was from

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Speaker 3: the voter, sometimes it was from our own staff. But

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Speaker 3: in relation to the prisons we had and I'll say

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Speaker 3: Darwin Prison because all the others were mobile polled, we

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Speaker 3: had five hundred and six votes that were lodged. Two

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Speaker 3: hundred and ninety eight of those were rejected and one

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Speaker 3: hundred and eighty of the one hundred and eighty eight

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Speaker 3: of those were what we've classed as avoidable rejections, where

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Speaker 3: it's just because the signature's missing or dates missing. Wow,

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Speaker 3: So yeah, they weren't admitted to the count.

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Speaker 2: So so not only there was two hundred and ninety

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Speaker 2: eight rejected and then an additional one hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: eight that weren't able.

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Speaker 1: To be used.

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Speaker 3: No, No, of the two hundred ninety eight one hundred

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Speaker 3: and eighty eight avoidable rejections, it looked the balance one

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Speaker 3: hundred and ten that could be like, let's say prisoners

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Speaker 3: who cast a postal vote but then were released and

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Speaker 3: went to to a voting center and just voted on

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Speaker 3: the Saturday, and then obviously their postal vote doesn't get

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Speaker 3: included in the count.

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Speaker 2: But this could have had a real impact on the

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Speaker 2: actual result of the election, couldn't.

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Speaker 3: It look Well, you know, I'm here, you know, as

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Speaker 3: you're saying the lead up to the election, saying every

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Speaker 3: vote counts, and I'm saying it again, right, the margins

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Speaker 3: are really small, and then you know, if you have

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Speaker 3: these kind of issues arised, then they certainly can have

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Speaker 3: an impact.

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Speaker 2: So how do you stop something from this happening next

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Speaker 2: time round.

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Speaker 3: Look, we certainly we've met with prisons. I met with

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Speaker 3: them a numerous times and they lead up to the election,

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Speaker 3: and we've met with them post election to go through

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Speaker 3: this data and the outcomes. And look, the answer is

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Speaker 3: that we need to mobile poll the prisons, right, which

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Speaker 3: is what we usually do. So we don't have these

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Speaker 3: issues because we have our staff they're going to the

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Speaker 3: prisons helping the prisoners that need to enroll make sure

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Speaker 3: that they're correctly enrolled. And then we also have our

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Speaker 3: staff going to a prison as though they were going

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Speaker 3: to a remote can munity. We know that ninety five

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Speaker 3: percent of the inmates are Aboriginal, and so it's certainly

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Speaker 3: in a language could be an issue.

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Speaker 1: So we've got.

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Speaker 3: How to vote messages in different languages that we've got

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Speaker 3: on tablets that we can show. And like I said,

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Speaker 3: it's just a lot easier to cast a normal vote

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Speaker 3: than it to cast a postal vote.

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Speaker 2: But so really, so if your staff had it been

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Speaker 2: able to do that in the way that they normally

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Speaker 2: would have, realistically, this probably would have been avoidable.

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Speaker 3: Look, there would be some mistakes, but certainly wouldn't be

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Speaker 3: to the number that we have here. But look, let

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Speaker 3: me say in corrections defense is that they've said to us,

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Speaker 3: the only reason you can't go there is because we

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Speaker 3: can't guarantee your safety in because of social distancing. You know,

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Speaker 3: there was damage to the prison and so the usual

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Speaker 3: venue that we would go to was not available to us.

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Speaker 1: So look, it's just one of those things.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a lot of lessons to be learned

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Speaker 3: from the whole election, and certainly, you know the lessons

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Speaker 3: from prisons, which they've accept right in our report they said,

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Speaker 3: you know, they certainly support us while pulling them in future.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I know, like you pointed out, you know,

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Speaker 2: on the lead up to the election, you always say

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Speaker 2: every vote count, So I know for you it must

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Speaker 2: be disappointing then when you've got a situation where there's

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Speaker 2: such a large volume of votes that you're not actually

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Speaker 2: able to count.

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Speaker 3: Look, look it is, Katie. But one of the really

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Speaker 3: positive changes that we had was to allow on the

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Speaker 3: day enrollment. So usually, you know, if you're not on

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Speaker 3: an electoral role and you go to a voting center,

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Speaker 3: you can't vote. But now we've had a change to

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Speaker 3: the legislation to say, if you're not on the electoral role,

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Speaker 3: but you're entitled to be on the electoral role, you

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Speaker 3: can basically what's.

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Speaker 1: Called a provisional vote yep.

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Speaker 3: And again that vote gets into an envelope and you

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Speaker 3: need to provide id in sign and do all those

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Speaker 3: usual things. But with that measure we had an additional

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Speaker 3: you know, I think we had seventeen hundred provisional votes

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Speaker 3: added to the count. So that's certainly made They made

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Speaker 3: a big difference.

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Speaker 2: Now you've made some other pretty bold recommendations. One of

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Speaker 2: them is public funding for election campaign expenses. Why do

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Speaker 2: you reckon this would help?

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Speaker 3: Look, I don't know whether it's bold, Katie, because every

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Speaker 3: other jurisdiction in Australia has it, with exception of Tasmani

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Speaker 3: and they just had an inquiry recommending that they that

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Speaker 3: they adopted. Look, there's always I suppose questions asked, right,

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Speaker 3: if you're giving donations to a party, why are you're

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Speaker 3: giving donations? And you know, are you getting a special favor?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: So elections cost money. This election costs three point seven

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Speaker 3: million dollars for us to run it. We know from

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Speaker 3: the major party's perspective that they would have probably spent

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Speaker 3: close to a million dollars or possibly over a million dollars.

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Speaker 3: So the money's got to come from somewhere, right, So

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Speaker 3: we either accept the present regime where it predominantly comes

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Speaker 3: from donors, or we look for an alternative, right, And

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Speaker 3: the alternative that's used basically in the other jurisdiction in

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Speaker 3: Australia is that you get some public funding. So it's

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Speaker 3: based on how many preference votes that you get. You know,

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Speaker 3: you will get x number of dollars for those votes,

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Speaker 3: and that goes to cover a portion of the election costs.

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Speaker 3: And if you bring something like this in, then you

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Speaker 3: bring in a cap on donations so that you can

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Speaker 3: you know, donations have got to be look, you know,

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Speaker 3: whether it be five thousand or ten thousand or something

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Speaker 3: like that, that's the maximum that any individual or entity

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Speaker 3: can provide.

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Speaker 2: Now, when you talk about that public funding, how much

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Speaker 2: do you think would be a reasonable amount.

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Speaker 3: Then look, if you say that just over one hundred

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Speaker 3: thousand people vote in the in the territory and it costs,

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Speaker 3: you know, in excess of a million dollars for a

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Speaker 3: party to run an election, and then you'd also have

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Speaker 3: obviously a number of independent candidates and you know they've

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Speaker 3: got a cap of forty thousand dollars per seed.

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Speaker 1: It certainly adds, right it.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is a this is a really that's

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Speaker 3: something that needs to be looked in terms of detail.

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Speaker 3: I don't sit here and say the figure should be

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Speaker 3: ten dollars a vote or twelve dollars a vote or

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Speaker 3: eight dollars of vote, right you know, I think what

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Speaker 3: you need is all the relevant stakeholders around and really

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Speaker 3: look at basically look at this issue and work out

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Speaker 3: what is a fair and equitable way between parties, independent

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Speaker 3: candidates and you know, and the fact that the High

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Speaker 3: Court still says that political parties and candidates can receive

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Speaker 3: donations but you can but you know under a freedom

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Speaker 3: of political expression, but limits can be placed.

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Speaker 2: Right hey. One of the other things that I was

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Speaker 2: keen to talk to you about, and I reckon that

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Speaker 2: this is a really interesting one, is electorate allowance restrictions. Now,

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Speaker 2: the Commissions recommended that the Renumeration Tribunal the determination number

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Speaker 2: two of twenty twenty on Entitlements of sitting Members of

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Speaker 2: the Legislative Assembly is amended to restrict ex vedure from

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Speaker 2: electorate allowances to costs which are directly attributable to the

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Speaker 2: administrative operations of the office. Now, I guess to put

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Speaker 2: that in layman's terms, would that mean that realistically a

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Speaker 2: politician who's a current sitting member is not able to

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Speaker 2: use their elector allowance to try to help them to

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Speaker 2: get re elected.

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Speaker 3: Look, it's a carefully worded recommendation, Katie, let me say,

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Speaker 3: worded it and reworded and reworded number of times. But

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Speaker 3: it's still extremely long and complicated because it is a

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Speaker 3: complicated issue. It is right, what we're looking here from

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Speaker 3: the Electoral Commissions perspective is a level playing field. And

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Speaker 3: we received like a number of complaints during the elections

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Speaker 3: saying it's not fair. How can sitting members have access

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Speaker 3: to funds that don't count towards the cap and we

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Speaker 3: don't have access to those funds.

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Speaker 2: So fair point.

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Speaker 1: Look, Look, and certainly we think it is a fair point.

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Speaker 3: That's what we've raised in the report, right, and we

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Speaker 3: think that you know, those electric allowances are used for

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Speaker 3: numerous things, right, you know, whether it meet to buy

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Speaker 3: photocopy paper or whatever it is for the office. Right,

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Speaker 3: So there has to be You know, it's not as

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Speaker 3: though you can ban the use of those funds during

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Speaker 3: a period. But we're just saying that you can't restrict

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Speaker 3: it to like, you know, anything that's going to look

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Speaker 3: like campaigning, because because.

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Speaker 2: It's really hard, like even if you talk about a

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Speaker 2: sausage sizzle provided by you know, a current sitting member,

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Speaker 2: are they using it from their electoral allowance? And if

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Speaker 2: you're running as an independent, you know, you don't have

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Speaker 2: that same opportunity to do it.

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Speaker 3: Look and look, like I said, it's certainly a level

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Speaker 3: playing field. You know, there were lots of sausage sizzles,

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Speaker 3: there were lots of pizza knights, there were lots of

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Speaker 3: movie nights right in the lead up to election, and

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Speaker 3: there's no problem with that, right. What we're saying is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, that really needs to be funded from the

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Speaker 3: parties or from it from the individual candidates, not from

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Speaker 3: electrical allowances. We think, sorry electric allowances, We think that

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Speaker 3: is a much fairer model.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with you in anything else you'd like

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Speaker 2: to make us aware of.

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Speaker 3: Look, one of the other things that we are keen

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Speaker 3: to pursue is to stop campaigning outside of all voting centers,

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Speaker 3: including early voting and on an election day. Look, we

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Speaker 3: certainly had a lot of issues at early voting, particularly

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Speaker 3: in Darwin and in Alice Springs out the front of

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Speaker 3: the cinema here and at the old A and Z

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Speaker 3: building in Alice Springs, because they were the only two

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Speaker 3: kinds of places where you could campaign, because the rest

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Speaker 3: of them weren't shopping centers that they didn't allow it, right,

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Speaker 3: So there number of instances of like inappropriate behavior. You know,

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Speaker 3: it certainly wasn't a good look for democracy.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: Our campaign workers were, you know, really getting on each

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Speaker 3: other's nerves. You know, it wasn't a I had the

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Speaker 3: Council of Aging get on the phone, say you've got

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Speaker 3: to do something about us, about this. The electors, you

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Speaker 3: know that they feel very unsafe, right, it's quite a

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Speaker 3: threatening environment. So you know, our proposal is that we

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Speaker 3: just stop campaigning and what we'll have is we will

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Speaker 3: have a table out the front with all the how

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Speaker 3: to vote material. Electors can enter a harmonious environment, choose

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Speaker 3: what had a vote material that they want and go

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Speaker 3: and cast their vote in peace.

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Speaker 2: No longer able to run the gauntlet at.

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Speaker 1: All, No more gauntlet, right, Yes, right.

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Speaker 2: If I think I'm the only person in town who enjoys.

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Speaker 3: That, well, I think you certainly are in a very

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Speaker 3: small minority, Katie, right, because yeah, it's not something that

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Speaker 3: I think Territorians don't like stuff being shoved in their face.

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Speaker 1: It's true.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so yeah, Look, I think that this has been

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Speaker 3: a long time coming, yea. You know, elections are robust

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Speaker 3: in the territory. One thing that we've seen is a

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Speaker 3: massive increase in early voting. So it's you know, I

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Speaker 3: think it's time for the parties and for the candidates

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Speaker 3: to look at alternative way to get their message to

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Speaker 3: voters rather than relying to do it at.

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Speaker 1: The at the voting centers.

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Speaker 2: Just finally, and we know that the council elections are

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Speaker 2: coming up. What day to day happening this year?

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Speaker 3: So that's the last Saturday in August, which is the

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Speaker 3: twenty seventh, don't hold me to that exact date. Look,

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Speaker 3: so again, were my message to all territories is just

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Speaker 3: make sure you're quickly enrolled. If you're not enrolled, you

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Speaker 3: can go into our website NTC dot nt dot gov

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Speaker 3: dot AU. The role closes at the end of July,

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Speaker 3: so you know the first message is to make sure

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Speaker 3: you're quickly enrolled. And obviously we'll be rolling out our

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Speaker 3: information campaign and you know, encouraging more Territorians to participate.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'll catch up with you well before then to

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Speaker 2: encourage everybody to do that. You know that I am

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Speaker 2: very strong on my beliefs that everybody needs to get

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Speaker 2: out there and make sure that they vote. Ian Logan Ethan,

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Speaker 2: the Electoral Commissioner for the Northern Territory. Always good to

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Speaker 2: catch up.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Katie