1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,519 Speaker 1: One of the questions that we used in our discussion 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: salons is really a quite simple question. The fairy godmother 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: has managed to make it to your birth, and she's 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: remembered to bring her wand she's able to give you 5 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: one gift, and one gift only. What is it going 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 1: to be? 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:33,199 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 10 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,599 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 2: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my workday. My guest 12 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: today is Doris Brett, also known as Doris Imba my mom. 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 2: I have known my mom well all my life, and 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 2: my dad, who does the sound editing for this podcast, 15 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 2: actually suggested that mum could make a very interesting guest. Now, 16 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 2: we are both obviously very biased, but I think this 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 2: is a super interesting interview. By way of background, as 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: well as being my mum, Doris Brett has practiced as 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: a clinical psychologist for nearly four decades and is also 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: a multi award winning poet and critically acclaimed memoirist and writer. 21 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 2: Her books range through various genres, including therapeutic stories for children, fiction, memoir, 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: and poetry, and she even wrote a bread baking book 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 2: back in the eighties. Her latest book is The Sunday 24 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: Story Club, co written with Kerry Q about conversation being 25 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: the new hot conversation topic and it really taps into 26 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: the global movement towards reclaiming face to face, meaningful conversation 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:47,559 Speaker 2: and personal stories rather than living our lives online. Now 28 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: in this chat with my mum, we cover a lot 29 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: of different topics, ranging from what goes on in therapy 30 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: from a therapist's point of view, how to ask great 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: questions and have meaningful conversation, through to how to identify 32 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: and deal with personality disorders in the workplace, a topic 33 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: that my mum has counseled me on on numerous occasions. 34 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 2: So over to my mum to hear about how she works. 35 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: I want to start with what happens in that very 36 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: first session in therapy. So you've practiced as a clinical 37 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: psychologist for the better part of four decades, and I 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: think that there are a lot of people, a lot 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 2: of listeners that have possibly been in therapy, but maybe 40 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,320 Speaker 2: some that have considered it and I'm very curious what 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 2: happens in that first session when you first see a 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 2: new client or patient. 43 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: Well, the first session is really what we call history taking, 44 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: but much more than history taking, it's really trying to 45 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: understand the themes and the patterns of my client's world. 46 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: And as well as trying to understand the themes and 47 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: the patterns that reoccur, because we all have themes and 48 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: patterns that reoccur in our lives, it's also trying to 49 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: understand the meaning they have for her or him. 50 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: So, how what sort of patterns like, what do you 51 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: mean by patterns? What's an example of what a pattern 52 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: might look like? And how are you identifying those when 53 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 2: your client's talking about their life. 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: Well, for example, someone might have an extremely overbearing, authoritarian 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: parent who put them down, and that can sensitize them 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: to those kinds of characteristics. Even when they encounter, example, 57 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: a workmate who is well meaning but just likes to 58 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: keep a fair amount of control, they may in fact 59 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: experience that workmate as overbearing and authoritarian and critical in 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 1: ways that they're actually not, because they're projecting from their 61 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: own experience of being sensitive to figures who have a 62 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: very clear idea of what they want done and how 63 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: they want it done and so on. 64 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: So there was a lot of that first session understanding 65 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: someone's childhood and their relationship with key members in their 66 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 2: childhood very much. 67 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: So that's certainly where you start, and then as you 68 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,479 Speaker 1: come up to the present, you will very often see 69 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: that there are themes that reoccur. For example, if you 70 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: as a child never had the chance to really bond 71 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: well with a parent, for example, or feel loved and special, 72 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: you may grow up needing to find that in other people, 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: with the need that is stronger, for instance, than a 74 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: child who has been well loved and felt safe and 75 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: special to the parent. So very often what happens is 76 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: you see that played out in different ways. Some people 77 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: become needy, for instance, and some people can go in 78 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: the opposite direction and basically say I don't need people 79 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: because they've not had the experience of people being dependably 80 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: there for them. 81 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: And like, what sort of questions are you asking to 82 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 2: uncover these patterns and people's history. 83 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: That's a difficult question for me to answer, because I'm 84 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: just always making it up as I go along, because 85 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: every person's absolutely individual, and so I will ask different 86 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: questions of different people because my mind is constantly very 87 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: much focused on what the person is saying, how they're 88 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: saying that, you know, does the emotion with which they're 89 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 1: saying it correlate with the content of what they're saying. 90 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: And I'm also listening for patterns. I'm listening for themes. 91 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: So for every person, although I might start off with 92 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: a simple question such as, you know, tell me about 93 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: what your childhood family was like, the questions that I 94 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: asked from then on will be different for different people. 95 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: Okay, and how do you go about building that report? 96 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: Because I imagine for people to open up to you 97 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 2: on the therapist's couch, so to speak, they're going to 98 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: have to feel comfortable with you. So what are those 99 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 2: very first few minutes like where you're trying to build 100 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 2: trust quickly? I imagine. 101 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,239 Speaker 1: Look, I think that's crucial. I think that the two 102 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: perhaps most important aspects of relating to someone in those 103 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: first few minutes. One is certainly respecting them as a person, 104 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: which involves listening to them, and the other involves really 105 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: trying to understand them. Because I think that we all 106 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: want to be understood, and we all react very positively 107 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: to someone who we can see is trying to understand us, 108 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: regardless of whether they have a different opinion of us, 109 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: and whether it's in the workplace or in our personal life. 110 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: If we see someone really trying to understand where we're 111 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: coming from and what our point of view means to us, 112 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: then we always feel more positively towards them. 113 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 2: Do you ever have people that are resistant to being 114 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 2: open in that initial session? 115 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: Sure, everyone has a different time frame in which they 116 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:46,239 Speaker 1: become comfortable with openness and vulnerability. But I think there's 117 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 1: also another level at which that's happening, and that's a 118 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: very much nonverbal level. It's the sound of my voice, 119 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: it's the expression on my face. All of these things 120 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: create a sense of who I am and who I 121 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: am in that space and in that moment. So people 122 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: vary in how long they take to trust someone, but 123 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: that's natural, I think. 124 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: And what are you doing, like with nonverbal cues and 125 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 2: even you know, things like the tone of your voice, 126 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: like what are you doing deliberately to ideally fast track 127 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: that report building? 128 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: What I am doing deliberately is really trying to understand 129 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: where they're coming from and what they're feeling. And I 130 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: think that once you have that as your aim, the 131 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: rest of your mirrors, that that comes across, your eye contact, 132 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: your expressions, all of those things will let someone know 133 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: that you're really interested in them. 134 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 2: I'm curious as to how you get to the bottom 135 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 2: of the problem because therapists talk about the presenting problem, 136 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: which is the problem that the client says that they're 137 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,559 Speaker 2: there to work on or solve, and often the presenting 138 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: problem is different from the real problem, Like, how do 139 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 2: you go about I guess understanding what the real reason 140 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: why they've come to see you is. 141 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: Well, it's like being a detective, very much like being 142 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: a detective. And as you said, sometimes the obvious or 143 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: superficial reason and very often the reason that people think 144 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: they're coming is in fact not the real reasons. So 145 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: someone can come to me, for example, with problems in 146 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:41,600 Speaker 1: their marriage, feeling that their husband isn't attentive enough or 147 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: their wife isn't attentive enough, and when they describe what 148 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: actually happens in their daily life and their marriage, they're 149 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: not describing a negligent or distant relationship. And so of 150 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 1: course that sets up a question in my mind, what 151 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: what is happening? Is there's something going on underneath, and 152 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: then you might find, for example, that they had a 153 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: childhood where they were, for example, encouraged to be very independent, 154 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: and their view of that childhood as an adult is 155 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: a very positive view. You know, we're all told we 156 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: should encourage our children to be independent, but in fact, 157 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 1: as you talk more with them and begin to uncover 158 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: more of the themes, that independence can in fact be 159 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: an emotional distance that the parents kept from the child. 160 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: You know, so that they may have been absorbed in 161 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: work and the children may have just been a distraction, 162 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: or they may have been absorbed in each other. There 163 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: are many, many reasons, and that emotional distance was too 164 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: painful for the child to experience. Because there's nothing more 165 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: painful for a child than to believe my mother or 166 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: father doesn't love me enough. It's much easier for the 167 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: child to believe I'm not good enough to be loved, 168 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: for example. And then when you grow up, you can 169 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: be playing out this family drama, as it were, by 170 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: projecting it onto the people who are important to you. 171 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: Perhaps you don't feel good enough to be loved, or 172 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: perhaps you have an extra need to really be coddled 173 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: by your partner as an unconscious way to make up 174 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: for missing it as a child. This is just one 175 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,839 Speaker 1: of a myriad of things that can happen. And there 176 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: are a thousand ways that childhood experiences can play out 177 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: as adults in personal relationships and in the workplace as well. 178 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: And like, is it possible for people to get to 179 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: the bottom of some of those issues without going to therapy? 180 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: Like what are some of the questions that are helpful 181 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 2: for people to reflect on in their own life. 182 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's a very interesting question to answer, because what 183 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: we have found as psychologists is that putting experiences into 184 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: words makes a difference. And there's a whole field of 185 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: psychology which is to do with writing about trauma and 186 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: something about putting an experience into words is very therapeutic. 187 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: And I think that it's in part because in order 188 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: to put an experience into words, you first of all 189 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: have to name it. You've got to be able to 190 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: conceptualize it. And once you conceptualize it, you then begin 191 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: to see it as part of a narrative. Once you 192 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: begin to see it as part of a narrative, you 193 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: begin to see different meanings in it. And I think 194 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 1: that this is part of what happened in psychotherapy, and 195 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: it's also what I've been doing that's described in my 196 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: new book, The Sunday Story Club. What we do is 197 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: we create discussion questions that invite people in unusual ways 198 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: to explore aspects of life and to share that those 199 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: stories that come out, And what we've been finding is 200 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: that people are continually startled by the kinds of stories 201 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: they remember and tell. And you can know someone for 202 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: twenty years and be completely astonished that you had never 203 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: known that they had this experience before, and the same 204 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: for the people telling the story. I've certainly found that myself. 205 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: You start to see connections and themes that you hadn't 206 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 1: seen before you took it out. 207 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: So how do you locate stories that you perhaps haven't 208 00:13:57,840 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: thought about in years or decades. 209 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: Well, for example, one of the questions that we used 210 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: in our discussion salons, which you know, we have a 211 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: whole list of forty discussion questions in the book we 212 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: encourage people to run their own salons, is really a 213 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: quite simple question. The fairy godmother has managed to make 214 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: it to your birth, and she's remembered to bring her 215 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: wand she's able to give you one gift and one 216 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: gift only what is it going to be? Now, that's 217 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of a fun question. It's certainly not a question 218 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: you get asked in everyday life, but it makes you 219 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: think about your life. It makes you think about your self. 220 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: What quality of self would have helped you in your life, 221 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: the ability to be braver, the ability to trust people 222 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: more or less. It makes you think about the circumstance 223 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: in which you've challenged or not challenged yourself. All of 224 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: those things come into that question. So when you think 225 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: about it, you're thinking about your life, except you're just 226 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: doing it from an unusual vantage point. 227 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: And so, just for those that haven't come across the 228 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 2: idea of a salon, what exactly is a salon a 229 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: conversational salon? Just what does that look like? 230 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: It's basically a group of people about ten people and 231 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: the way that we have created them. We select two 232 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: discussion questions, which we send out with the invite a 233 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: few weeks beforehand, and then for about two and a 234 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 1: half hours, we go through these two discussion questions. Every 235 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: single person gets the opportunity to answer the question. Some 236 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: do it in light hearted ways, some in very deep ways. 237 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: It's fine, it's their choice and it's quite an extraordinary experience. 238 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: We learn so much from them about ourselves and each other, 239 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: and they're also a lot of fun. There's a tremendous 240 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: energy that we all leave with. 241 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: So what makes a good question that elicits that kind 242 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 2: of depth of I guess understanding yourself better. What are 243 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 2: the qualities of a good question? 244 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: Well, I can give you an example that actually was 245 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: something that happened between myself and my co author, Kerry Q. 246 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: And it was really a wonderful example of what these 247 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: questions can do. And the salon experience where you actually 248 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: have to listen, that's part of what the salon is. 249 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 1: We had met as strangers. We decided to run these 250 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: conversation salons and we ran them very well and very amicably. 251 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: We had different tasks that we're doing. I was creating 252 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: the questions and Kerry was doing the MCing and we 253 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: did that well. We were able to critique each other 254 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: with no problem at all. Said, to carry these salons 255 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: are so extraordinary, we have to spread the word, and 256 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: let's write a book. So we decided to write a book. Now, 257 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 1: when we were writing the book, we were doing different 258 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 1: chapters each but we were both doing the same task, 259 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: and we were taking stories from the sale line, we 260 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,439 Speaker 1: were interviewing the storytellers with their permission, obviously, and we 261 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: were each writing separate chapters. Now a little way in 262 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: I realized that we were writing them in very, very 263 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 1: different styles. I'm a literary writer and Kerry as a journalist. 264 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: So my stories were framed as short stories with emotional 265 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: insight front and center. Kerry's were framed as a journalist 266 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: would write facts, facts, facts, And I said to carry, 267 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: I think we have to frame them all as short stories. 268 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: Kerry cut me off, and I kept trying to explain that. 269 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: Kerry just kept cutting me off. She was clearly angry. 270 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: I became frustrated and then angry too, and very worried 271 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: about what was going to happen to the book, because 272 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: it was just clear to me that we could not 273 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: have a book with such different styles. And I tried, 274 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: over a period of about two and a half months 275 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: to broach the topic again, and I was cut off 276 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: every time, and I was at my wits end because 277 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: we had to find a way to work together and 278 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: to listen to each other, and of course listening to 279 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 1: each other was the key. So what I did was 280 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: for the next salon, I created a question which began 281 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: with a couple of literary quotes about criticism, and then 282 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: the question was what has criticism meant to you in 283 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: your life? Now in the salon, we have to listen 284 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: to each other. That's part of the salon philosophy. And 285 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: so when it was my turn to answer the question, 286 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: I talked about the fact that I had had a 287 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 1: lot of editors with my books, and the first thing 288 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: was that I really appreciated the fact that someone had 289 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: taken the time in trouble to read all of my 290 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: words and think about them. And some of the editorial 291 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: comments were very valuable to me, and some I felt 292 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: just didn't hit the mark. But in having to respond 293 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: to those ones, I had to write and think about 294 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: why they didn't hit the mark, and that was helpful 295 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,719 Speaker 1: to me too. So for me, criticism was a win 296 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: win all round. Kerry, on the other hand, as a journalist, 297 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: said she'd had about one hundred editors and she basically 298 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: hated editors. She felt they destroyed her work and that 299 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: when she had some kind of response to an editor, 300 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: her immediate response was a defensiveness. Now we talked about 301 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: that in the salon, And then a few days later 302 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: Kerrie rang me up and she said, you know, I 303 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: think we need to write those stories as short stories. 304 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 1: And I said, Kerrie, that's what I've been trying to 305 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: tell you all along. And it was the fact that 306 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: we were able to hear each other in the salon 307 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: that allowed us to recognize what was going on for 308 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: each other. And I think that was just a wonderful 309 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: demonstration of what the salon does. 310 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: And so, how do you construct a good question that's 311 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 2: going to elicit that kind of insight, like what's your 312 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 2: process for doing that? 313 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing that we want to do is 314 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: avoid a question that's got a yes or no or 315 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:54,360 Speaker 1: a simple answer. And for example, a very common question 316 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: that someone might ask is what are you reading right now? 317 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: We would not ask what are you reading right now? 318 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 1: We would ask why do you read? And that's a 319 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: question that is a much more internal question, and from 320 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: that you can get all kinds of answers, which range 321 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: from I was lonely as a child and socially awkward 322 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: and books were my companion, or as in fact, one 323 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: of the stories in the Sunday Story Club book, this 324 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: particular woman as a child was not given any guidance 325 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: for how to live life. You know, there was no 326 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: parental wisdom coming down, and she got her role models 327 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: and wisdom from Enerd Blaton's famous five and secret seven. 328 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 2: And so what else aside from you know, a question 329 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 2: that doesn't elicit a yes or no or a simple 330 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: kind of answer. What are the other things that you're 331 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: thinking about when you're constructing a great question. 332 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: Well, we're really looking at just coming at things from 333 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: an angle, and they're the kind of questions, almost all 334 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: of them are the kind of questions that are interesting 335 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: across all age groups. One question, for example, that was 336 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: taken home to the dinner table and an eight year 337 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: old answered it was you've been given the opportunity to 338 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: travel back in time and learn one thing from one person, 339 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: or travel anywhere in the present and learn one thing 340 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: from one person. Who is that person going to be? 341 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: And what do you want to learn? And again, all 342 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: of the questions are designed to sidestep the usual ways 343 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 1: we think of ourselves, manager, mother, teacher, all of those things, 344 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: but to really ask us to in a sense, voyage 345 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 1: through our life and our life narratives and respond to 346 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 1: it with with the stories that just come naturally when 347 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: you think about it. 348 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: I want to come back to your work as a 349 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: psychologist and around the stories that come up for your clients, 350 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 2: and perhaps I know that reframing things, reframing how clients 351 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 2: think about things is a key part of your work, 352 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: and in the circles that I work in in innovation, 353 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 2: a lot of people talk about failure being a necessary 354 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 2: ingredient for innovation, but still leaders struggle with that concept. 355 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: And I know that failure is something that would come 356 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 2: up in a lot of your discussions with your clients, 357 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: and I'm curious how do you go about reframing something 358 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: like failure. 359 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: Basically, I think that we all consist of stories. That's 360 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: how we understand our lives. We as human beings have 361 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: an absolute drive to create meaning, and without meaning, we 362 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: have no way of understanding our lives, what we should do, 363 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: the context, how we should be responding. So we create 364 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: stories about every single experience, even though we're not conscious 365 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: of the stories. And neuroscientists have in fact referred to 366 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: the brain as story making machine. So the frame of 367 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: the story is what gives the story the meaning. If 368 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: you have an experience, for example, of not succeeding at 369 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: a task at work. There are different ways in which 370 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: you can create a story around that. But as you said, 371 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: one of the ways is I've failed, and that can 372 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: also mean to you I'm a loser. And the other 373 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: way of creating the frame is I didn't succeed at this, 374 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: but I learned a lot from it. I'm a learner. 375 00:24:54,760 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: And that framework gives you an entirely different way of 376 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: seeing both yourself and the task and the future, because 377 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: that's what the frame of a story does. It's an 378 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: orienting device, and it orients towards particular aspects of both 379 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: the experience and what it means for us in the future, 380 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: because we're always thinking about what our present experiences mean 381 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: for us in the future. 382 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 2: Okay, so that's helpful, you know. When thinking about failure. 383 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,400 Speaker 2: I guess something else that a lot of people struggle 384 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 2: with is procrastination, which I'd love you to talk about. 385 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 2: I guess what is the story that's going on there 386 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: for people potentially, and how can we framing that help, 387 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: you know when it comes to getting over procrastination being 388 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 2: more productive? 389 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: For example, Well, I think the frame that we put 390 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: around a story basically is what we are directing our 391 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: attention to in the story. So it's a bit like 392 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: being in a dark room with a torch with a 393 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: narrow beam. We only see what we aim the torchat. 394 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: So with procrastination, let's say we've got a task that 395 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: we have to get done, and let's say it's a 396 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: boring or repetitive task, and we've been putting it off 397 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: for that reason. What we're doing in that case is 398 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: focusing our torch on the boring and repetitive part of 399 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 1: doing the task. Another frame that we can put around 400 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: that story is focusing on how we're going to feel 401 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 1: when we've completed that completed the task, which is virtuous 402 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: and free. And if we put that framework around the story, 403 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: the way we feel about the task changes. I'll get 404 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: this done and I'm going to feel great afterwards instead 405 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,360 Speaker 1: of oh no, I don't want to get onto this. 406 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 2: That's helpful. And I think, like, I've heard you tell 407 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: lots of stories. I grew up as a child with 408 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: you telling me a lot of stories, very memorable stories, 409 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: And like, I'm curious, how do you construct a good story? 410 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: Because I know that you've studied storytelling in quite some depth. 411 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: I have studied storytelling in some depth. But that's mostly 412 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: because I just grew up loving mythology, and you know, 413 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: it was just my joy to read mythology from all 414 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: around the world. And there is a lot of wisdom 415 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: that is contained in those stories, and there's a reason 416 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: that they have lasted over centuries because they do contain wisdom. 417 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: And Joseph Campbell, who is famous for exploring and writing 418 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: about comparative mythology and religion, is a wonderful person to 419 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 1: read if you want to get a sense of what 420 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,920 Speaker 1: these stories, the folk tales, and the mythology can give 421 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: to you. And one of his books is Caught the 422 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: Hero with a Thousand Faces, and what he did for 423 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: that book was he looked at the stories about heroes 424 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: over many cultures through the ages, and he concluded that 425 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 1: there was an archetypal hero's journey. And it's a very 426 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: very interesting concept because in modern times we think of heroes, 427 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: we think of we call athletes heroes, and we think 428 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: of heroes as people who are talented or brave and 429 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: they do something and they just succeed. Whereas the classic 430 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: heroes journey that is repeated in country after country through 431 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: myth after myth and story after story is that the 432 00:28:51,760 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: hero always experiences doubts and concerns about this quest, and 433 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: very typically the hero not only experiences doubts and fears, 434 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: but fails, certainly at the first go before ultimately succeeding, 435 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: and that failure is an integral part of the journey 436 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: because the hero needs to gain the learning about himself 437 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: that comes from failing, and also needs to learn how 438 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: to continue with the quest with no certainty of success, 439 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: which is something that we would all benefit from hugely, 440 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: because I don't know of anyone where success is guaranteed 441 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 1: in any venture. 442 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 2: I think it's a great book for people to read 443 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 2: Hero with a Thousand Faces, and I'll put a link 444 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: to that in the show notes. I heard recently that 445 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: Joseph Campbell actually worked with George Lucas on creating the 446 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: first Star Wars movie, which I find kind of interesting, 447 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 2: which is obviously classic hero's journey. Something that you've given 448 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: me some very good advice on over the years in 449 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: my work is around spotting personality disorders and working with 450 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 2: people with personality disorders and psychopaths and so forth in 451 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 2: the workplace, and you know, having been in the workforce, 452 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: for two decades now. I've certainly had my fair share, 453 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 2: and I've even hired some, and I want to know 454 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: And I imagine that listeners of the show have also 455 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 2: encountered this, but perhaps they haven't recognized what they're dealing 456 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: with because they're not a trained clinical psychologist who's designed 457 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 2: to identify things. So I guess, like, how do you 458 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 2: identify personality disorders? And I think probably narcissism is the 459 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: most common one that is out there, and probably psychopaths 460 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: or sociopaths as well, Like how do you identify these 461 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: people in the workplace to start with? And then I 462 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 2: guess my follow on question from there is what do 463 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 2: you do once you've identified them? 464 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,959 Speaker 1: I think that it's not necessarily easy to identify people 465 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: immediately unless they're really florid. I mean, some narcissists, for example, 466 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: can't stop talking about themselves. But equally many can be 467 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 1: very charming, and it's very easy to be charmed. We're 468 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: all susceptible to being charmed, I think. So I think 469 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 1: that one has to look at the way they present 470 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: themselves in the workplace, assuming you've hired them, and see 471 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: whether the way they present themselves actually correlates with what 472 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: they do. That's obviously one of the big things, because 473 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: a lot of people are very good at talking the 474 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: talk and in fact do something very different. The other 475 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:24,479 Speaker 1: thing too, that again, as a therapist, one of the 476 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: things that you have to be very aware of is 477 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,239 Speaker 1: not just your client's reactions and internal experience. You've got 478 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 1: to be very aware of your own internal experience, and 479 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: you have to be able to distinguish whether the way 480 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: that you are reacting now to something that your client 481 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: is telling you is that to do with something in 482 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: your history, is that triggering something anew and are you 483 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 1: projecting something onto your client, or is your reaction something 484 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: to do with what is happening in the client's seat. 485 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,800 Speaker 1: And I think that happens in the workplace too. I 486 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: think we all know people who make us feel anxious 487 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: for no reason that we can particularly put into words. 488 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:20,479 Speaker 1: We all know people who can very subtly belittless in 489 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: ways that you know, you can't really say, well, she 490 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: was incredibly rude to me, or he was so nasty 491 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: to me. It's done subtly, but you feel it. And 492 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: I think these kinds of responses if you're regularly feeling 493 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: something about a person in the workplace, for example, and 494 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: you don't think it's coming from your own history and 495 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: your own internal experience that you carry within you, then 496 00:33:55,440 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: you have to think is it something that is coming 497 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: from them? And I think that that's a big part 498 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: of recognizing what's happening between people. I think you always 499 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: need to look at whether it's something that you're projecting, 500 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: and if you feel that it's not, then it must 501 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: be something going on over there. 502 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: So if it's not you, it's them, Like, what do 503 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 2: you do if you don't have a mum, a psychologist 504 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: who can help you through it. 505 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: Look, I think the first thing is having a sense 506 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: that it is coming from them, because when you're not 507 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: clear about that, you're often feeling am I insane? Or 508 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 1: are they insane? And it's very confusing. I think that 509 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: once you're clear it's coming from them, the what do 510 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: you do? Is a very complex answer, and there are 511 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: lots of books around on how to deal with difficult 512 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: personalities in the workplace, But it's not a kind of 513 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,919 Speaker 1: one size fits all a thing. 514 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,319 Speaker 2: So where where would you start? Let's just say, I mean, 515 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 2: it obviously depends on what is the disorder that you're 516 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 2: being faced with the let's take narcissism, because I think 517 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: statistically that's probably the one that people are most likely 518 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 2: to encounter, whether it's narcissistic personality disorder or someone that 519 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 2: is just kind of skewed that way on the continuum, Like, 520 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 2: what should people do other than you know, get on 521 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 2: Google and you know, look at the identifying traits of 522 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 2: a narcissist, you know, as I have definitely googled before. 523 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,359 Speaker 2: Like where do you go from there? 524 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot depends on your relationship. Are 525 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 1: you their boss? Are they your boss? Do you have 526 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: to work with them on an equal footing? Do you 527 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 1: have to work on the same project? You know, all 528 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: of these kinds of things. But essentially, I think if 529 00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: you start with the idea that everyone, everyone wants to 530 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 1: be understand good and appreciated, and can you co opt 531 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 1: them rather than fight against them, it would always be 532 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: my first way of thinking. With a psychopaths, for example. 533 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: The other question involved in that is can you trust them? 534 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,479 Speaker 1: Because you might think that you're able to co opt 535 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,319 Speaker 1: them to work with you, and they may in fact 536 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: be working against you. So it's a very very complicated answer. 537 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: It will in sense that there are multiple answers. 538 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: I guess In short, I know for me what has 539 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 2: worked is removing myself or themselves from the immediate environment 540 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 2: i e. The workplaces has been the ideal outcome. 541 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: I think that's a solution. But not everyone has access 542 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: to that solution. You know, they may be forced to 543 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: work with them, and they may be forced to depend 544 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:56,439 Speaker 1: on them. 545 00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 2: But I guess the bottom line is, if you are 546 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 2: in that situation and you can't get out, do seek 547 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 2: the help of a professional. I think it's probolut I 548 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 2: think so, yeah, And I guess, like my second last 549 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:12,239 Speaker 2: question is for those that have been listening and you know, 550 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:14,239 Speaker 2: perhaps maybe you have been toying with the idea of 551 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: seeing a therapist or a psychologist for stuff that they're 552 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 2: struggling with, Like, how do you find a good therapist, 553 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: because I think both you and I know that a 554 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: lot of them are not very helpful. 555 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: Oh, I think that's a really good question, and it's 556 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:34,359 Speaker 1: quite true. I always feel that a personal recommendation is 557 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: the best if you know someone who is going to 558 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 1: a therapist, And I mean, many more people than you 559 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: think are seeing therapists and they say, my therapist is terrific. Well, 560 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 1: that's always a good clue. Obviously, if that person is 561 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: a close friend, then there may be boundary issues in 562 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: going to that therapist, but you may be able to 563 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: get a recommendation that therapist. GPS often know who's good 564 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 1: because gps send people to therapists and then they keep 565 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: seeing them for their GP appointments, so they'll get feedback. 566 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: So that's often a way to go. 567 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 2: That's good. I feel like the word of mouth recommendation 568 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: is a funny one, and I was reminded of I'm 569 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: just reading Lorie Gottaleb's book about a therapist being in therapy, 570 00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 2: and she talks about how that's a tricky question to 571 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: ask because often you don't want to share with people 572 00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 2: that you're going to see a therapist, But that question 573 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: who do you recommend kind of necessitates that unless I 574 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:46,000 Speaker 2: guess you say you're asking for a friend. But I 575 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: like the idea of asking a GP, given they're probably 576 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,919 Speaker 2: getting a lot of feedback from a lot of their 577 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 2: patients that they're saying, so that's fantastic. Finally, you have 578 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,840 Speaker 2: a book out. You've written many books. How can people 579 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 2: locate your current book that has just hit bookshelves. 580 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: Well, it's called The Sunday Story Club. It's by Pam 581 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: Millan and it should be out there in the bookshelves 582 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: at the moment, or if it's not, you can ask 583 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: for it. There's also an audio version of it. And 584 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: what we're doing in that book is really talking about 585 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: the stories we carry inside us, and we have some 586 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: of the stories from the salon, we have the discussion 587 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: questions that have prompted those stories, and we've also got 588 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: at the back of the book the second half of 589 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: the book, a step by step guide to how to 590 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: run your own salon. And one of the things that 591 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,960 Speaker 1: we were really delighted by we were talking at a 592 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: conference in Sydney and people were coming up to us 593 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 1: in the book signing queue, and they all wanted to 594 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: run a salon. Many of them wanted to run it 595 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,279 Speaker 1: for their friends, but some of them wanted to run 596 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: it for all kinds of groups. There was one person 597 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 1: who wanted to run it for her business associates, another 598 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 1: person wanted to run it for the elderly and for teenagers, 599 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: young mothers. So it was just wonderful to see the 600 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 1: idea greeted with such enthusiasm. 601 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 2: That's excellent, and even though I'm a potentially biased subject 602 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,320 Speaker 2: given I'm your daughter, I absolutely love The Sunday Story Club. 603 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,919 Speaker 2: I just thought it was just wonderful. It made me laugh, 604 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 2: made me cry several times, and I just I couldn't 605 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,320 Speaker 2: recommend it highly enough And certainly one of my projects 606 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 2: for the second half of this year is to start 607 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 2: a salon group myself. So on that note, thank you 608 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 2: so much for being on the show. I've thoroughly enjoyed 609 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:48,320 Speaker 2: a conversation as. 610 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: Her vibes been lovely. 611 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:54,280 Speaker 2: That is it for today's show. I hope you enjoyed 612 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 2: my chat with my mum, Doro s Brett, and I 613 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 2: hope you also enjoy The Sunday Story Club if you 614 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 2: choose to go out and grab yourself a copy, which 615 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 2: I highly recommend because it has been one of my 616 00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: favorite books that I've read this year. And if you 617 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 2: enjoy it today's show, why not share it with someone 618 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 2: else or leave a review in Apple Podcasts or wherever 619 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,840 Speaker 2: you listen to this show from. So that is it 620 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 2: for today and I will see you next time.