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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily This is the Daily OS. Oh,

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Speaker 1: now it makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the eleventh of April. I'm emma, I'm Zara, a transgender woman,

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Speaker 2: is suing a social media app for discrimination in the

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Speaker 2: Federal Court this week.

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Speaker 1: We should not be in a position to have to

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Speaker 1: justify them. I'm sick of explaining people. Go but why

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Speaker 1: do you need a female only space?

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Speaker 3: Because we want them.

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Speaker 2: Giggle for Girls is a now inactive Australian social media

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Speaker 2: app that was designed to be used exclusively by women.

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Speaker 2: Transgender woman Roxane Tickle launched legal action after she was

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Speaker 2: removed from the app in twenty twenty one. Tiggle claims

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Speaker 2: she was discriminated against unfairly because of her gender identity,

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Speaker 2: but the creator of the app denies any wrongdoing and

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Speaker 2: has repeatedly denied that Tickle is female.

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Speaker 1: We'll explain why this.

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Speaker 2: Case is so important in today's Deep Dives, but first, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: what's making headlines?

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Speaker 3: Nearly three weeks after the Tasmanian election, the state's Liberal

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Speaker 3: Party is just one seat away from forming a minority government.

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Speaker 3: The state's Premier, Jeremy Rockcliffe has now made a deal

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Speaker 3: with the Jackie Lamby Network after the Liberals fell four

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Speaker 3: seats short of forming government in their own right. The

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Speaker 3: three Lamby Network party members will support the Rockcliffe government

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Speaker 3: in exchange for promises including strengthening the state's Integrity Commission.

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Speaker 3: The government now needs support from one other MP to

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Speaker 3: officially formed government.

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Speaker 2: AFL player Jeremy Finlayson has been handed a three game

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Speaker 2: suspension after using what the AFL called a highly offensive

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Speaker 2: homophobic slur against an Essendon player last Friday. The AFL

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Speaker 2: said the Port Adelaide player will now need to attend

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Speaker 2: nandatory inclusivity training. It noted Finlayson immediately apologized and confessed

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Speaker 2: to using the slur, and said his punishment would have

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Speaker 2: been more severe if he hadn't shown remorse.

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Speaker 3: The US state of Arizona has revived a near total

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Speaker 3: abortion ban that was included under laws dating back to

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Speaker 3: eighteen sixty four. The reinstated laws will make all abortion illegal,

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Speaker 3: except for terminations deemed necessary to save the mother's life.

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Speaker 3: The law won't come into effect for two weeks to

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Speaker 3: allow for any remaining challenges to its decision. Twenty one

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Speaker 3: US states have now implemented abortion restrictions. That, of course,

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Speaker 3: comes after the U. S. Supreme Court overturned roev Wade

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Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news. The oldest known pottery samples in

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Speaker 2: Australia have been discovered in far North Queensland. It's the

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Speaker 2: first time archaeologists have found evidence of potterking by First

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Speaker 2: Nations communities in Australia. Archaeologists found eighty two pieces of

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Speaker 2: pottery on an island in the Great Barrier Reef off

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Speaker 2: the coast of the Cape York Peninsula. Experts say the

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Speaker 2: artifacts might have been used as part of a trade

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Speaker 2: network with other First Nations communities in the Western Pacific.

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Speaker 4: Hey there, I'm just popping in here. My name is

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Speaker 4: Sira and I'm the sales manager at TDA. I help

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Speaker 4: organize these sponsorships you hear on the podcast every day

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Speaker 4: and that helps fund the journalism you hear. If you

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Speaker 4: want to support us, the best way to do that

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Speaker 4: is by clicking follow on Apple or Spotify. It really

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Speaker 4: helps new audiences find us. Thank you for your support

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Speaker 4: and now back to the deep dive.

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Speaker 3: So a discrimination trial over a women only social media

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Speaker 3: app has begun in the Federal Court this week. M

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Speaker 3: And it's a really substantial case. It has like fairly

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Speaker 3: far reaching consequences. It's the first time a specific law

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Speaker 3: has been tested.

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Speaker 1: What's the story about. So we're talking about an app

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Speaker 1: today called Giggle for Girls.

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Speaker 2: It's now inactive, but it used to be an Australian

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Speaker 2: messaging platform.

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Speaker 1: What was it.

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Speaker 3: I'd never heard of it, so me neither.

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Speaker 2: I had a look into it and on the app store,

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Speaker 2: this is the blurb the description for this app made

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Speaker 2: for women. Buy women connect on Giggle about the latest issues, politics, gossip,

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Speaker 2: news and more. Promote your business and or yourself, find

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Speaker 2: accommodation and roommates. Connect privately to discuss your most intimate thoughts,

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Speaker 2: all with mutual consent and without unwanted interruptions and misogynistic abuse. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So my interpretation is it was kind of a platform

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Speaker 2: to connect women to the other women and women led services,

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Speaker 2: women run businesses. I've heard of it referred to as

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Speaker 2: kind of like a dating app for female business and friendship,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So a transgender woman whose name is Roxane Tickle started

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Speaker 2: using that app a few years ago and she has

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Speaker 2: now launched legal action against Giggle, who removed her from

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Speaker 2: the app in twenty twenty one. Tickle is claiming that

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Speaker 2: she was discriminated against unfairly because of her gender identity

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Speaker 2: in Giggle's decision to take her off the platform. But

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Speaker 2: the creator of this app has said they haven't done

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Speaker 2: anything wrong. They've denied that discrimination was unlawful in this instance,

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Speaker 2: and they've repeatedly denied that Tickle is a woman. So

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Speaker 2: this case is really complicated, but it is in court

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Speaker 2: this week and that's why we're talking about it today.

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Speaker 3: Okay, before you go any further, I think it's fairly

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Speaker 3: rare to have a case Giggle and Tickle both in

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Speaker 3: the name of it, and I think it's a bit

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Speaker 3: confusing continuously using those two terms.

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Speaker 1: So Giggle is the app, Tickle is the person.

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Speaker 2: Yep. So it is really confusing and it makes light

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Speaker 2: of kind of what is actually a really serious case.

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Speaker 1: And Tickle is the person. Giggle is the app.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So explain a bit about Roxanne Tickle, who's at

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Speaker 3: the center of this case.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: So the woman at the center of this case, Roxanne Tickle,

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Speaker 2: a transgender woman living in New South Wales. Her birth

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Speaker 2: certificate has been updated to reflect her gender as female,

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Speaker 2: but Roxanne was assigned male at birth and has since transitioned.

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Speaker 2: Tickle downloaded this app Giggle in twenty twenty one, and

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Speaker 2: she set up an account. The app used AI photo

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Speaker 2: checking technology to verify whether it's users.

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Speaker 3: Were women or not, which is what just taking selfie

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Speaker 3: of yourself and then it deduces whether or not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so I'm not sure specifically because this app

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Speaker 2: is now defunct what that photo checking process looked like,

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Speaker 2: but Tickle downloaded it used that software. The app determined

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Speaker 2: that she was a woman and therefore she could create

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Speaker 2: an account, but later down the track. Later that year,

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Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one, Tigle was eventually blocked from the platform.

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Speaker 1: That prompted her to.

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Speaker 2: Launch a complaint with the Australian Human Rights Commission, and

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Speaker 2: in that complaint, Tickle alleged she was unfairly discriminated against

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Speaker 2: because of her gender identity by Giggle.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and so what's Giggle's perspective on this? We've heard

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Speaker 3: from its founder.

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Speaker 2: In an interview with The Australian, The CEO of Giggle, Salgrover,

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Speaker 2: actually said that she herself manually removed Tiggle from the

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Speaker 2: platform after seeing her onboarding selfie.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't ai, it wasn't anything like that. It

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Speaker 3: was the founder specifically removing this person. Yep.

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Speaker 2: Tiggle ended up escalating that complaint that she had made

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Speaker 2: to the Human Rights Commission to the Federal Court. That

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Speaker 2: was after the CEO of Giggle, Salgrover, had chosen not

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Speaker 2: to participate in formal talks between Tiggle and the Human.

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Speaker 1: Rights Commission, so Tiggle lodged a complaint.

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Speaker 2: There was an opportunity for the app CEO to meet

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Speaker 2: with Tickle with sort of a mediated talk. She rejected

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Speaker 2: that opportunity, So then that's why this case was escalated

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Speaker 2: to the federal court. Grover has continued to reject that

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Speaker 2: Tickle's gender is female.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and so that's the basis on which they are

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Speaker 3: refuting these claims. But it's obviously an extremely complex topic,

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Speaker 3: you know this so less it's a lot of emotions

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Speaker 3: on both sides. What does the law say though in.

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Speaker 2: A situation like this, This is where it's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 2: And as you mentioned the top, there are laws, but

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Speaker 2: new laws, and this case is actually the first time

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Speaker 2: that alleged gender identity discrimination within Australia's Sex Discrimination.

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Speaker 1: Act has been heard in the Federal Court. So we

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Speaker 1: have a sex.

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Speaker 2: Discrimination Act in Australia that's been around for a long time,

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Speaker 2: but this specific caveat or clause around gender identity discrimination

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Speaker 2: is newer.

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Speaker 1: So changes in twenty.

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Speaker 2: Thirteen to that act, it's specifically unlawful to discriminate based

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Speaker 2: on sexual orientation, gender identity, or intersex status. Grover, who

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Speaker 2: again is the founder of Giggle, rejects the discrimination claim

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Speaker 2: and her lawyers are arguing that Tickle is a man

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Speaker 2: and was therefore lawfully discriminated against when Giggle deleted the account.

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Speaker 2: Giggle an all female, only female app, its founder deciding

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Speaker 2: that there was a user on the app who was

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Speaker 2: not female and then removing that account. That sort of

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Speaker 2: forms the basis of that legal defense.

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Speaker 3: Okay, And I'm curious how a legal defense like this

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Speaker 3: is being paid for when we've said it's an inactive app,

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Speaker 3: but now it's getting all of this publicity, it's before

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Speaker 3: the courts. How is it being funded?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So this is an interesting one and I think

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Speaker 2: speaks to the broader conversational interests that we see when

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Speaker 2: a case of this nature is in the media. The

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Speaker 2: app is an active anymore, as you said, But Grover's

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Speaker 2: legal team have actually crowdfunded more than five hundred thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars to pay.

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Speaker 1: For giggles legal defense.

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Speaker 2: That's an extraordinary amount of money, five hundred thousand dollars,

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Speaker 2: and that tells us that there's obviously a lot of

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Speaker 2: people in the community who are interested in supporting this defense.

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Speaker 2: Former Liberal Party candidate Katherine Deves is actually among the

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Speaker 2: lawyers representing the platform Giggle in court. Deeves if you

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Speaker 2: forgot or in case you need a refresher. Deves is

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Speaker 2: the person who ran in former PM Tony Abbott's Sydney

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Speaker 2: seat of Waringa in the lead up to the twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty two election. She made a lot of headlines at

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Speaker 2: the time, was accused of transphobic comments, she had a

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Speaker 2: lot to say about transgender women in sport. She did

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Speaker 2: not win that seat, but she became kind of a

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Speaker 2: controversial figure around them. So that person, Catherine Deeves is

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Speaker 2: representing or is among the lawyers representing Giggle now in court.

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Speaker 3: And we've seen a lot of photos of you know,

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Speaker 3: Deeves walking alongside Grover as they enter court. It's not

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Speaker 3: a live stream, so we can't actually watch what is

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Speaker 3: happening in court, but we know that it's unfolding this week.

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Speaker 3: What happens next This, as we've said, will have like

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Speaker 3: a fairly significant outcome for Australians.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the Federal Court case is due to run

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Speaker 2: until the end of this week. As you mentioned, not

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Speaker 2: live streamed. We're not in the room, so we have

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Speaker 2: to kind of wait and see what happens, what the

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Speaker 2: court reports say in the meantime. But ultimately, the court

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Speaker 2: is working to determine if Tickle was unfairly discriminated against

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Speaker 2: based on her gender identity, and part of this is

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Speaker 2: going to involve the court either accepting or not accepting

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Speaker 2: her gender identity as a woman. So that is a

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Speaker 2: pretty big question mark, or the central question mark at

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Speaker 2: the heart of this case, and it's a decision that

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Speaker 2: could really set a precedent for future gender discrimination cases.

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Speaker 1: You know, one way or the other, it.

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Speaker 2: Could extend to the inclusion of transgender people in things

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Speaker 2: like community, sport and public spaces.

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Speaker 1: This is not a conversation that's going away.

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Speaker 2: No, we will stay on top of these findings and

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Speaker 2: we'll have to wait and see what they mean for

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Speaker 2: future cases of a similar nature.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, and thanks so much for joining us on

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Speaker 3: today's episode of The Daily Os. If you learned something

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Speaker 3: from today's episode, please send it to a friend. It

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Speaker 3: is the way that the Daily Ods grows and grows,

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Speaker 3: and we so appreciate your support. We'll be back again tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: but until then, have a great day.

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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Madden and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Cargoton woman from Gadigol Country.

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Speaker 4: The Daily Os acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 4: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 4: all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island and nations.

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Speaker 1: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 1: both past and present,