1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: I find as well, Like, you know, it's not necessarily 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: tie myself to the mask, but even things like if 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: what is closest to me in the bed when I 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: wake up is the kindle and at the phone, I'm 5 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 1: more likely to read. But if the phone's on top 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: of the kindle, you know, I'm more likely to look 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,680 Speaker 1: at the phone. But if I can reverse that order, 8 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's a bit better. So just a little 9 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: hacks like that. And I think it's good to kind 10 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: of look at every aspect of your life and say, Okay, 11 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: where's something that I can kind of make it easy 12 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: to do the thing that I want to do. 13 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 14 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 2: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 15 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: their day. I'm your host, doctor amttha Imba. I'm an 16 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: organizational psychologist, the CEO of Inventing, and I'm obsessed with 17 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: finding ways to optimize my workday. On today's show, I 18 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: speak to Matt Mullenwig. I feel like Matt is kind 19 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 2: of like Internet Royalty because he's founding developer of WordPress, 20 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 2: which is the open source software used by over thirty 21 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: one percent of the web. He also founded Automatic, which 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: now employs around seven hundred people, and Matt's also been 23 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,639 Speaker 2: named one of Business Weeks twenty five most influential people 24 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: on the Web. Now, I've found out a lot of 25 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 2: fascinating things about how Matt works during this chat, and 26 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: something I particularly loved hearing about were some of the 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 2: really simple changes he's made to create better habits, like 28 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: how he only has certain types of apps on the 29 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: homescreen of his phone. So, without further ado over to 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: Matt to find out how he works. Matt, welcome to 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: the show. 32 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to be here now. 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: You're, of course the co founder of WordPress, and I 34 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 2: read recently that you've just ticked over the thirty percent 35 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: mark in that over thirty percent of the world's websites 36 00:01:55,040 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: built on WordPress. Is that correct? 37 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: That is correct, and we're looking forward to get the 38 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: other seventy percent. 39 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 2: Amazing, amazing. Look, I'd love to start with what a 40 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: typical morning looks like for you, and also whether there 41 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 2: is such a thing, Given that I know you travel. 42 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: So much, it took a question, so I would say 43 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: that the thing that is my favorite morning routine is 44 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: probably reading, actually, which is nice because I can do 45 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: that really anywhere I am in the world if I 46 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: can carve out. You know, some people wake up early 47 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: to work out. I like to wake up a little 48 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: bit earlier to get a better reading time in because 49 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: I find that sets my brain up in the right 50 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: space for everything I need to get done the rest 51 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: of the day. 52 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: I love that I was actually reading on your blog. 53 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: I was counting that you read I think about thirty 54 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: books last year, and I was going to ask how 55 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: you fit in that reading time. Are there there are 56 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: other times in the day that you also block out 57 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 2: for reading or is it? Does? It tend to be 58 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: more of a morning ritual at the moment. 59 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: Often when I travel is really good for that. So 60 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm actually reading a lot more this year than last year. 61 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: I'll probably end up with forty five or fifty books 62 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: this year, and it's you know, travel time, it's downtime. 63 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: I've started experimenting a bit with Audible has a sync 64 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: feature with the Kindle, so I can be reading and 65 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: then switch to audio and it's exactly where I left off, 66 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: and then when I switched back to reading, it's exactly 67 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: where the audio stopped. So you can kind of go 68 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: between audio books and written books without without really losing 69 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: any words or anything. 70 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 2: That's really cool. And when do you find like, what's 71 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: the scenario where you'd use the written book in the 72 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 2: kindle versus the audio, Like what are sort of typical 73 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 2: scenarios for both? 74 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: Written is definitely my first choice, so that could be 75 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: anytime I can sit waiting. I generally always have my 76 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: kindle on my backpack, so if I'm on sometimes a 77 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: train if it's a longer train ride or subway ride, 78 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: and the audiobooks really for those in between times, so walking, 79 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, when you're going to and from the gates 80 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: or boarding, or if I'm driving, which is not too 81 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: common if I'm traveling, but if I'm in Houston, Texas, 82 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: which is my home, I drive a lot, so those 83 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: are perfect times for for more audio content. 84 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, And when you're when you're reading on the kindle, 85 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: do you do you speed read? Do you have techniques 86 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 2: to finish books faster or just like reading like the 87 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: rest of us. 88 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: When I listen, I'm generally listening at one and a 89 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 1: half to two x speed, so but when I'm reading, 90 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I read very normally. I've tried faster 91 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: reading in the past and I often lose things, and 92 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: a lot of my reading these days is for pleasure. 93 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: So it's you know, novels and other things that are 94 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,159 Speaker 1: don't really lend themselves well the speed read. In fact, 95 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: sometimes you want to stretch it out because the words 96 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: are so beautiful you want to savor them. 97 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: M Yeah, I love that. I love that, And I 98 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: think I read somewhere that you've often got several books 99 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: on the go at the same time. Is that still true? 100 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that. You know, sometimes I'll just get 101 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: kind of stuck in a book, and so while switching 102 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: to something else, it can provide just a little bit 103 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: of variety. I'll usually also have like a nonfiction and 104 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: a fiction going at the same time, and now, just 105 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,799 Speaker 1: depending on my mood or what kind of modemen, different 106 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 1: books on themselves. So like some books are very like 107 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: short stories, like you know that there's going to be 108 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: like a good stopping point, and other novels like I 109 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: don't want to start unless I have a few hours 110 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: blocked out because I know I'm going to get completely 111 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: lost in it. 112 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: And getting back to the mornings. Like, how how long 113 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: would you typically spend reading? Like doing uninterrupted reading. 114 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,359 Speaker 1: I'll try to get in at least a chapter, which 115 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: is you know, again, it depends so much on the 116 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: format of the book, but call it fifteen to twenty minutes. 117 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: Fantastic, Love it, love it. And I remember hearing that 118 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: you were sort of, I guess, experimenting with meditation. I 119 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 2: believe you're an investor in Calm. I'm not sure if 120 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: that's still the case. But where's your meditation routine or 121 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: habit out at the moment? 122 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: You know, I like to get that in in the mornings, 123 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,600 Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes I just can't. So otherwise I'll 124 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: sneak it in throughout the rest of the day as 125 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: long as it's not nighttime or I haven't had a 126 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: drink beforehand. I find it can be very effective in 127 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 1: other parts of the day. Yeah, if it starts to 128 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: get later, I just doze a little. I guess it's good. 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,880 Speaker 1: I get into a very relaxed place very quickly. 130 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: Yes, don't dozing. It's very relaxing. Excellent. I wanted to 131 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 2: ask about, like how you board off distractions, because you 132 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: obviously work with technology for a living, but it can 133 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 2: also be such a source of distraction, and I'm wondering, like, 134 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: when you're trying to get deep focused work done. What 135 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,359 Speaker 2: strategies do you use for tuning out I guess the 136 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: rest of the world and particularly digital distractions. 137 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: Hmmm. It's funny because I have friends that are like, oh, 138 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: you're so productive. How do you be so productive? And 139 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: I feel like the most unproductive person. So my approach 140 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: is generally like like a Ulysses, where I tie myself 141 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: to the mast, you know, plug my ears so I 142 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: can't hear the sirens. And yeah, I find that I'm 143 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: way better at planning ahead than actually resisting temptation. So 144 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: if I can just close out the apps, or it's 145 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: not that I'm getting lots of notifications and not looking 146 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: at them. Is that I'm just hiding the notifications for 147 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: myself so that my brain doesn't even have to use 148 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: the willpower to not engage with them. 149 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: And I mean, do you have notifications constantly turned off 150 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: or do you kind of switch them on when you 151 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: are in that I guess more of a responsive MI. 152 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: I have notifications, but they generally don't buzz me, so 153 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: the phone doesn't have any visible or you know, I 154 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: guess taptic feedback whenever something comes in and then on 155 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: the computer I'll just generally close apps out, you know, 156 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: if it's not relevant, including slacks. Sometimes that's maybe my 157 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: biggest distraction because I kind of keep it on when 158 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: I'm working or having conversations. But of course then anything 159 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: can come in I find as well. Like you know, 160 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily tie myself to the mask, but even 161 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: things like if what is closest to me in the 162 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 1: bed when I wake up is the kindle and on 163 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 1: the phone, I'm more likely to read. But if the 164 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: phone's on top of the kindle, you know, I'm more 165 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: likely to look at the phone. But if I can 166 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: reverse that order, you know, it's a bit better. So 167 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: just a little hacks like that. And I think it's 168 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: good to kind of look at every aspect of your 169 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: life and say, Okay, where's something that I can kind 170 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: of make it easy to do the thing that I 171 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: want to do. 172 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: I like that. What other aspects of your life of 173 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: your life have you made those simple changes that have 174 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 2: led to better habits. 175 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: Oh, if I have sweets or or things like that 176 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: in the house, I don't have them visible, and they're 177 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,080 Speaker 1: generally like in a drawer or kind of buried away 178 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: a little bit. So I can get them if I'm 179 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: entertaining or having a party or really really want it. 180 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: But it's not just something that's like staring at me 181 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: all day saying eat me, eat me. That's you know, 182 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 1: kind of a common thread that your phone's not buzzing 183 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: saying look at me, look at me. The tasty food 184 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,719 Speaker 1: is not saying eat me, eat me. Just kind of 185 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: out of sight, out of mind. It's not one hundred 186 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: percent true, but is very helpful. 187 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. And what else do you do to focus? 188 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: So you're closing down apps that you're not using and 189 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 2: the notifications is switched off, Like, is there anything else 190 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: that you found to be effective to stay focused? 191 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,199 Speaker 1: Going offline? It's really great. You know, do this unintentionally 192 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: sometimes on airplanes, but then occasionally at home, I'll actually 193 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: just turn off the network, the Wi Fi or the 194 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: Ethernet and like literally unplugging it and then just forcing 195 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: myself to look at all the things that are there 196 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: in front of me, so start closing down more tabs 197 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: than I open, or looking at those files that have 198 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: been on my desktop for several months and saying, okay, 199 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: what's going to be the way to do that? Kind 200 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: of carving out that time, even if it's unintentional, just 201 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: taking really savoring whatever is available to you at the moment, 202 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: I find very helpful. 203 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: And do you still have a playlist to help kind 204 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 2: of get into flow that you listen to? 205 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: So I have a few, kind of I guess at 206 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: this point they're like deep house focused playlists that are 207 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: just ones in title and Spotify that'll go too because 208 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: there's no words or very few words. They have kind 209 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: of a nice beat behind it. But if I really 210 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: need to get in the zone, my general thing is 211 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,319 Speaker 1: just picking a single song and having that on repeat. 212 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: And that can be really anything. So it can be 213 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: pip hop, it can be jazz, it can be really whatever, 214 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,959 Speaker 1: but just having that on repeat for a while, and 215 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: it just has to be a song I like and 216 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: then something often that I really like, and so it 217 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 1: it's pleasurable to have it there, but your mind kind 218 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: of backgrounds it after the first or second listen. So 219 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: I've just found that to be a really effective technique. 220 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: And do you have any songs that you're going to 221 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: a lot at the moment? 222 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: M you know, a recent one is this new Drake's 223 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: Son nice for what? Ah? Yeah, it's a it's just 224 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: so fun and has some kind of natural breaks in 225 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: it where like the kind of style goes between things 226 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: and it just has that kind of great four flowing 227 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: beat in the way they do the Lauren Hills sample 228 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and just lovely. 229 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 2: I want to move on to looking at how you decide, well, 230 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: how you kind of decide on your priorities? Could I would? 231 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 2: I would imagine like in what you do and with 232 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: your profile, you're probably getting approached with different opportunities left 233 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 2: right and center, and I'm curious as to how you 234 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 2: decide what do you say yes to and what do 235 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: you say no to? 236 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, it gets easier actually because the things that 237 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 1: I am quite keen to say yes on are growing 238 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: over time. You know, the company is growing. When I'm 239 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: over seven hundred and fifty people. You know, your group 240 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: of family and friends, people who you love very much. 241 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: You really want to be there for them, and you 242 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: appreciate that time more as you get older, So that 243 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: kind of naturally crowds out a lot of other things. 244 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: And in terms of the other yes is probably my 245 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: biggest weakness is saying yes to someplace that I want 246 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 1: to go. So it's an events or I know some 247 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: people who I want to see will be there, or 248 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: it's a place that I want to go because I 249 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: haven't been before, And then as it approaches sometimes I'm like, Ah, 250 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: why did I sign up for this? That's probably my 251 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: biggest weakness. We've ran into each other at an event, 252 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: didn't we? 253 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: Oh? We did it Ted that's riding Vancouver. 254 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: That's a good example of one that ahead of time, 255 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: and they very smartly sell you the tickets like a 256 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 1: year ahead of time. I know this year I actually 257 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: didn't want to go, but I had purchased a ticket 258 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 1: almost a full year before, and it's also quite pricey, 259 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 1: so I felt very obligated to go. So this year 260 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: I've been trying to avoid that by actually not purchasing 261 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: a ticket and probably will not attend next year, not 262 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: because it wasn't wonderful and I got to meet awesome 263 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: people like yourself, but just because it was a lot 264 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: of time out of it. So you know, what I 265 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 1: try to avoid is whatever I'm doing, just try to 266 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: be fully there and really, what's a good word for it. 267 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: I try to get the most out of whatever you're doing. 268 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: I do it with vim and vigor. So if I'm 269 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: at the conference, or if I'm going to go to 270 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: a conference, like I don't check my email during that, 271 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: Like I really try to be present and like get 272 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: the most out of that conference. And if doing so, 273 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 1: I find myself very bored or disengaged, maybe that's a 274 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: good reason to not go versus agreeing to things and 275 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: then you know, being on calls or emails or otherwise 276 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: distracted the whole time because that I'd rather do be 277 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: honest at home. 278 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: Would you ever just cut your losses at one of 279 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 2: these events that you've said yes to because you thought 280 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: it would be a good idea in the lead up, 281 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: and then you get there and you're finding that there's 282 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 2: no value. Would you ever just cut your losses and 283 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: go early? Or once you're there, you're committed. 284 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,280 Speaker 1: Now that I'm terrible at So I'll finish bad movies, 285 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: I'll finish bad books. I try to make the best 286 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: of it. But yeah, I'm not good at leaving it's interesting. 287 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: So that's why I have to be careful what I start. 288 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: Like I would say TV series are a good example 289 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: of this, Like, like I know that starting a TV 290 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: series is like a big commitment because you're signing up 291 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: for tens of hours of things that like are kind 292 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: of tugging at the back of your brain, being like, 293 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: what happened to so and so. So I'm very very 294 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: very discerning. I'm starting tho I'll watch. That's why I 295 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: prefer even shorter things on Netflix, like you know their 296 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: documentaries which tend to be like an hour and a half, 297 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: or or comedy specials which are usually an hour's actually 298 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: amazing when just came out of Australia you might have 299 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: heard of rag Hannah Gadsby called the net. 300 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 2: Oh it's brilliant. I saw that live actually the Comedy 301 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: Festival a couple of years ago. Yeah, wow, wow. 302 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. 303 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: It's interesting what you say about how you like, once 304 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: you start, it's it's hard to stop. How how do 305 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: you apply that to work? Because I imagine so much 306 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: of what you do for automatic and WordPress is starting 307 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: something and you know, kind of being in that experimentation mode, 308 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: but then inevitably some experiments fail. So so how do 309 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: I guess do you because I imagine you must be 310 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 2: much better at it with work in terms of starting 311 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: something and then abandoning it versus TV series. 312 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: Hmmm, I'll say it's actually a weakness that automatic as well, 313 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: and probably many of my colleagues would agree with you. 314 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: It's something that I have an eye on now is 315 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: that the good news is for projects, especially software, it's 316 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: typically measured in weeks or months, not just like an 317 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: hour or two or there's something repetitive. So one thing 318 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 1: that I've actually been working on a lot this year 319 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: is allowing myself and other people to say, you know, 320 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: opt out of a meeting. For example, not just going 321 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: to a meeting because it's it's what we do every 322 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: week or every other week or every month, but saying hey, 323 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: is you know, do you feel like you got a 324 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: lot out of this, and if so, please come back. 325 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: If not, it's okay to opt out. And just making 326 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,159 Speaker 1: meetings optional is interesting. And you know, if you do 327 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: a good job about having an agenda beforehand, people can 328 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,800 Speaker 1: read it and choose to opt in. Or of course 329 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: you can reach out to someone and say, hey, I 330 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 1: think it's important for you to be part of this conversation. 331 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: But by making it a bit more optional, it's a 332 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: good balance between people not feeling excluded but also not 333 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, wasting time for yourself for others, and then 334 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,639 Speaker 1: for projects, just trying to be more explicit at the 335 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: start with how long we expected to take. You know, 336 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: I can think of an example, you know, we're in 337 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: the middle of one right now, and one that just 338 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up, or something that started and we 339 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: thought it was kind of a four or five month thing, 340 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: and actually the worst case ended up going closer to 341 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: eighteen months. And so at many points along that path 342 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: we should have had I think this is called the 343 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: sun cost fallacy, like we should have said, oh, if 344 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: we had known it would have taken eighteen months at 345 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: the beginning, we wouldn't have done it. So we should 346 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: stop it now, even though that's painful and people want 347 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: to finish it or it always seems right around the corner. 348 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: But for other things we're being a lot more supplicit now, like, Okay, 349 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: we started this because we thought it was a three 350 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: month project. If it were a six month project, would 351 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: we still do it? And then saying yes or no 352 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: before you start, And then and then if it sweats 353 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: stretches to six months, you can say, Okay, that's still 354 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: within the parameters or what we said it was worth it. 355 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: But when it starts to go beyond that, that's when 356 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: you say, oh, not worth it, and then also that 357 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: being clear to everyone involved so that they know that 358 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: the deadline really starts to become much more of a 359 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: deadline once it goes beyond that place that you wouldn't 360 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: can do it from scratch. 361 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like that approach, And I was curious as 362 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: to what you said about meetings as well, and people 363 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: being able to opt out of meetings, and it certainly 364 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 2: puts the onus on the meeting organizer to make it 365 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: a really good meeting. Have you had many people opt 366 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 2: out of meetings after I guess giving that permission? 367 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: Oh for sure, and I opped out of a ton, 368 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: So I think that it's it's something that it's not 369 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: necessarily you want to have a culture where it's an 370 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: okay thing to do and doesn't have like other hidden meetings. 371 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: So obviously, if like it's some sort of like passive aggressive, 372 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: I don't like your project or something that would not 373 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: be productive. But if it's really just hey, I'm happy 374 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: to be part of this. I'll read the notes. You know, 375 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: you can stay engaged with that needing to take that 376 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: real time sort of real time interaction, you know, when 377 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: you have a meeting. You need to think of the 378 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: time I multiplied by the number of people there. So 379 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: if you have eight people in a meeting, that's kind 380 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 1: of a full workday worth of work. It's eight hours, 381 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: even if it's just an hour long meeting. 382 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I want to come back to something 383 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: that you mentioned before about how when you are at 384 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: an event, you'll be present, you'll switch off email, And 385 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what is your approach to managing 386 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: your inbox? And I get that you've obviously got Slack 387 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: as well, and I imagine that's mostly for internal comms, 388 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,200 Speaker 2: But what's your approach to managing your inbox? 389 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: Hmm. I don't know if I'm a great example here 390 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,880 Speaker 1: because my workflow and systems are very kind of bespoken 391 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: unique I am. You know, I have two assistants, so 392 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 1: for help with scheduling things or things like that, or 393 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: sometimes just raising things that I might have missed. They're 394 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: able to jump in an email system which actually goes 395 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,479 Speaker 1: through if you can believe it, a WordPress plugin, So 396 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:09,359 Speaker 1: when you email me, it gets piped through through WordPress. 397 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: Actually that then does like a database look up on 398 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: the sender. It has records of all my sent mail. 399 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: So if I interact with this person recently, and then 400 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: based on that and other characteristics or kind of regular 401 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: expressions I write, the email might get filtered into several 402 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: different boxes. Obviously an inbox, which is, you know, kind 403 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: of the easy one, but then there could be an 404 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: unknown box, low priority, high priority shopping, you know, all 405 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 1: these receipts and things. So having a lot of that 406 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,399 Speaker 1: filtering done automatically means that I spend very little time 407 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: kind of categorizing things or filtering things, but it's still 408 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: pretty neatly organized. I'm not an inbox zero person, although 409 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: the thought of it is very appealing to me. Right now, 410 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 1: I have, let's see, one hundred and twenty things in 411 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: the inbox, and so that's a combination of maybe some 412 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: subscriptions or things I follow that I really want to read, 413 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: and then people who I really want to reply to 414 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: or that are are kind of important and I check. 415 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: To be honest, I'm not great at an email in 416 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: that I probably only work on it every couple of days. 417 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: I might do like little bits of maintenance throughout the 418 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: course of a day, but like really digging in and 419 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: sending replies. Is it best kind of once or twice 420 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:31,680 Speaker 1: a week. 421 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: Wow, does that take discipline or is that easy to 422 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: sort of not be in it too much? 423 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: I find an email incredibly easy to ignore too often 424 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: to the detriment of myself and others. 425 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 2: Excellent, And what are your favorite apps or tools or 426 00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 2: technology for getting more done being more productive. I'm loving 427 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: the sound of how your email is organized. That sounds amazing. 428 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 1: Well, I know, I think it's worthwhile, especially if you 429 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: have the ability to code or invest in someone who 430 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: does actually invest in like workflow and other things like that. 431 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: So there's a number of areas where I feel like 432 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 1: my life is significantly easier because there's just things that 433 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: are being automated or coded. I guess my go too 434 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: is we mentioned calm already, and that's kind of a 435 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: great meta investment. And the kindle Audible and overcast For 436 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: consuming audio content, either books or podcasts my other go toos. 437 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: I use both wonderlist and to do list. Wonderless for 438 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: collaborative list and to do this for my personal I 439 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: use simple note Aton, which is actually an automatic product 440 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: for keeping notes throughout the days. And if I to 441 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: do something very collaborative, like let's say, a person who 442 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: I work with quite a bit. Will often have a 443 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: shared Google document that will have open if we're ever 444 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: having a meeting, and then also so can function almost 445 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: more like a whiteboard or shared notes. We'll use it 446 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: his agenda for our next meeting, and then we can 447 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: just kind of put open items there. So if they're 448 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: reading a me for something around waiting for them on something, 449 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: we'll make sure to mark that down with a date 450 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: so that it can be tracked. Internally, we use a 451 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: ton of WordPress, so that's really how we communicate as 452 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: more WordPress than anything else. And you know, just trying 453 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: to have like the homescreen on my phone doesn't have 454 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: anything that's distracting. It's only like good habits. 455 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 2: Like what's some examples of. 456 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: Those, So like instead of Facebook, I'll have Kindle or 457 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: you know, audio apps, run keeper. My kind of bottom 458 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: bar is lift Google mapps to do list and calendar, 459 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: so all things that are are very very kind of productive. 460 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: I removed the Google app from there, which I like 461 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: using for searching for things, because when you launch a 462 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: Google app, it also shows you interesting news stories. So 463 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: I just want to kind of change my muscle memory 464 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: and move it around. I find that, you know, if 465 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: I find myself using something too often or getting to 466 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: it just moving, it can sometimes break that pattern. So 467 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: you know my thumb, I'll actually accidentally click on the 468 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: thing I replace it with. Just because you get in 469 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: these patterns, and by knowing how the patterns work, I 470 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: think it makes it at least more possible to break them. 471 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: I won't say it makes it easier, but it makes 472 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:41,919 Speaker 1: it at least that you can recognize yourself sometimes in it. Hmmm. 473 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: I like that. I've definitely experimented with what goes in 474 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: that bottom vire as well. I heard that you in 475 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 2: terms of keyboard, you don't use a quirity keyboard, which 476 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: is the traditional keyboard layup, but you use a Devorac 477 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 2: And if I pronounced that correctly keyboard, And I'm wondering, 478 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,919 Speaker 2: can you explain what that is and and why you 479 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 2: made that move and also just how how you made 480 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 2: the switch? How how do you learn a new keyboard system? 481 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: Oh, it's much like learning the type. So all the 482 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 1: however you learn the type, or I find many people 483 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: actually haven't learned the type properly. You can there's tons 484 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: of stuff for free online. I think you know back 485 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: in the day there were apps like Mayvis Beacon Teachers 486 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: typing if you remember that one, Yeah, but you can 487 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: basically including for Devorak learning. You just google and there's 488 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of free kind of like online stuff where 489 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: you practice letters. So you do like Dvorak, maybe you 490 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: do an aaaaa ee. You kind of train yourself to learn, 491 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: and it's actually not hard to know multiple ones. Just 492 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: like many people you'll play multiple instruments that might be 493 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: slightly different, like the clarinet and the saxophone. Like some 494 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: of it is, of course the ambusher and the other 495 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: parts of it, but a big part of it's the 496 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: fingering and where you go. And after I would say, 497 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: not even that many hours of dedicated work, you know, 498 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: call it fifteen to twenty five of like deliberate practice, 499 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: you can be easily at a useful typing speed, you know, 500 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 1: call it forty or fifty words per minute, which is 501 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: what I call like thinking speed. You know, often we're 502 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: not limited by our typing speed, but really like our 503 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 1: ability to know what to say or what to code. 504 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 1: And then of course with practice, I can type properly 505 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 1: up to maybe in the one twenties words permitt but 506 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: I almost never do because again I don't think that 507 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,360 Speaker 1: quickly generally, and the theory behind the wrack is it's 508 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,959 Speaker 1: just a more modern keyboard layout. Quarity was created in 509 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,959 Speaker 1: part to make it so that when you type letters 510 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: that are very frequently occur together, like T and H 511 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: for example, which is the most common letter pair in 512 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,239 Speaker 1: the English language, if those remember the arms that used 513 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: to come out, If those arms are right next to 514 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 1: each other, they could get stuck on each other and 515 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: jam your typewriter. So quirdy is optimized a lot more 516 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: for having those common pairs further away from each other, 517 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: or in arms that would not run into each other. 518 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: This is actually useful for thumb typing, so I don't 519 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,239 Speaker 1: think quirty is bad for mobile, and I actually use 520 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: it for there. But then on desktop, you of course 521 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,360 Speaker 1: want to have your your different fingers or different strengths. 522 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: If you're in the home road, it's more efficient than 523 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 1: if it's in a place where you move your finger 524 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: to and you can do things like for example, T 525 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: and H in the in the divorak keyboard is your 526 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: right hand middle finger, and then the finger right next 527 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: to your thumb. Is that a ring finger? No, I 528 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: guess it's the index finger, so you could just I mean, 529 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: if you just do that right now, like push down 530 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: your middle finger and then your index finger. It's a 531 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: very natural movement. And doing one of those right after 532 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: each other is almost like you might tap on a 533 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: desk if you were just fidgeting. So having those most 534 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: common vows and consonants on the home rule and then 535 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: the most common pair is next to each other is very, 536 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: very useful. And that's the design of of work I 537 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: switched to when I was much much younger, because when 538 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: I was a teenager, I thought, well, I'm probably going 539 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 1: to type the rest of my life, so even if 540 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: I can become ten percent more efficient, that'll be a 541 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: worthwhile investment. And I have many colleagues who've switched in 542 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: a more modern era, and my only advice there is 543 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 1: to kind of go cold turkey, So really force yourself 544 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: to use the new layout as much as possible, and 545 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: then put in, if you can, a bit of time 546 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: every day to actually deliberately practice. And there's a diminicion 547 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: marginal return, So thirty minutes to an hour day is 548 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: probably really good. For where hours a day it would 549 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: be a waste of your time, you know, But if 550 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: you can put in a bit of practice and then 551 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: kind of force yourself to use it the rest of 552 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,719 Speaker 1: the day where you're just kind of, you know, painfully slow, 553 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: but picking it up. You'll be there certainly in less 554 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: than a month. Hmm. 555 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: That's cool, that's encouraging. I'm quite inspired to keep that 556 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 2: in Cahart. 557 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: If you're going to give it a go. By the way, 558 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: there's one that's slightly more efficient. So there's a keyboard 559 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: layout called Colmac. 560 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: Ah Yes, I've heard of that. 561 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: Yes, actually has a lot of overlap with Devorak. But 562 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: Devorak was invented kind of prior to World War Two 563 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: and using some great technology at the time. But then 564 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,960 Speaker 1: you know they didn't have computers and such, and so Colemack. 565 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,959 Speaker 1: So Devorak is I'm going to make these numbers up. 566 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: But let's say, way more efficient than the Quirity, like 567 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: much much, much better. Colemac's maybe five percent more efficient 568 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,520 Speaker 1: than Devorak. So even using their their sort of ancient 569 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,480 Speaker 1: methods of research and efficiency, they got pretty darn close 570 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: to the ideal. So but if you were starting today, 571 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: I would say go straight to Colmac. And these layouts 572 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: are built into every modern computer system. 573 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was gonna ask, and have you ever thought 574 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 2: about making the change to COLMAC. 575 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: Have definitely seriously considered it. Because I'm so fast on 576 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,080 Speaker 1: DEVORAK and there's not that big a difference, I question 577 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: whether it's worth it. So I haven't done it yet, 578 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: but if I had, I do still think about it 579 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 1: sometimes and I might still do it, so we'll see. 580 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: And for creative work, I think I heard that you 581 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: use an analogue notebook, so you move away from the 582 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,600 Speaker 2: keyboard completely. Is that correct. 583 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: I find it really satisfying to cross things off on 584 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: a paper. And also if I am in a meeting, 585 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: even if it's a video call, which is many of 586 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: my one on one meetings, I think for both sides, 587 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: typing can feel very distracting. Certainly if you're in person 588 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: someone's like typing things down, it just feels like they're 589 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: not present. But writing doesn't have that same effect. So 590 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 1: that's why I take a lot of notes. It's because 591 00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,959 Speaker 1: it helps me remember. Occasionally I type them up out 592 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: afterwards or might translate them into a computer to do. 593 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, just for in the moment, it's great to 594 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 1: have paper. Mm. 595 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: I like that. 596 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: I like that, like a Ted. For example. They even 597 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: discourage having your phone out, so I would keep a 598 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: notebook in my pocket the whole time. So if I 599 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: neither write anything down or take a quick note, I 600 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: could mmm. 601 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: And so that's interesting. So you'll you'll type up some 602 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 2: of the notes but not others. Like after Ted, for example, 603 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: what did you do with the notes that you took 604 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 2: from Ted? 605 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: Hm, I'm trying to think. I probably do a quick 606 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 1: glance over them. Sometimes I write them down just to 607 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: remember them, not to actually look back at them. But 608 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: the act of writing helps me kind of distill a 609 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: little bit, and then other times I'll really go back 610 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: and turn it into some to do. So Like for example, 611 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: if let's say you and I were having a one 612 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: on one meeting and you were a direct report of mine, 613 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: so we worked very closely together. I would take written notes, 614 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: and then I would actually post the meeting as one 615 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: of my As you probably tell, I like meetings to 616 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: be will time will spend, So I usually like to 617 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: have a bit of time beforehand to prepare and then 618 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,239 Speaker 1: budget a bit of time afterwards to process everything that 619 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: came out of the meeting and do any follow ups 620 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 1: or at least track whether's follow up should be. Sometimes 621 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: I'll even use a voice memo for that. So there 622 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: was a time a few weeks ago I was really 623 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: kind of back to back in New York and going 624 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: between things very quickly, so I was literally almost running 625 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: between meetings. Not quite, but they were very important meetings, 626 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: so I really want to make sure I captured all 627 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: my thoughts from them. So just as I was walking 628 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: down the street, I did probably like a five or 629 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: eight minute voice memo that was much like things I 630 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: would write down, but we're just you know, kind of 631 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,960 Speaker 1: thoughts and things from the meetings, and actually, you know, 632 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 1: once it's on your iPhone voice memo, I was able 633 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: to send that to my assistant and she was able 634 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: to type it up, so then that made it easier 635 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: for me to turn it into written follow ups and 636 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: notes for my college. They wanted to share the notes 637 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: from the meetings with m. 638 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 2: I like that, Yes, very cool. Yeah, I use voice 639 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 2: memos quite a bit myself. I wonder I want to 640 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 2: finish with a few kind of quick questions to understand 641 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 2: what are you consuming right now? Because I can think 642 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: it can be so so hard for the average person 643 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: to know, like what are the best and most inspiring 644 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 2: and most interesting sources of information. Given it's it's just 645 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: all a little bit overload. So to start with, what, 646 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 2: what are like a couple of podcasts that you're currently 647 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: loving and consuming. 648 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to do a plug on the first one. 649 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: There's a podcast called Bundyville that long reads, which is 650 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: an automatic product. Did it with the with MPR and 651 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 1: it's a really fun narrative. Also the Yeah, I love 652 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: Farnham Streets. And there's a podcast called The Knowledge Project 653 00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: that's from the same site. It's probably one of my 654 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: top sites and podcasts in the world. A really thoughtful 655 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: guy named Shane Parris, actually Canadian, but just one of 656 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: the smartest people you've ever met, and really really dives 657 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 1: into you know, Charlie Munger, Warren Buffett and other people 658 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: who've been successful really over decades versus you know, many 659 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: of the folks if you pick up like a magazine, 660 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: they're talking about who's successful that year. There's not a 661 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 1: longevity to it, and so I get far more interested 662 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: with kind of what's happened over decades, and so you 663 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: find yourself drawn to folks like Ben Franklin, Charlie Munger, 664 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: you know that, or firms that have succeeded over a 665 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,320 Speaker 1: long time, even like the Koch Brothers, that they're like, okay, 666 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: there's something working here that goes beyond you know, even 667 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: one or two business cycles. I love on Being with 668 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: Christa Tippett probably one of my top ones. On Margins 669 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 1: with Craig Maud. I listened a lot to Tim Ferriss, 670 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: of course, he's a good friend. And you know, new 671 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,280 Speaker 1: one that I just started that I'm very much enjoying 672 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: is there's a doctor named Peter Attia, and I think 673 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: his podcast is called Drive, the Peter Atia Drive, and 674 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: he is a doctor obviously an MD, but also you know, 675 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,399 Speaker 1: really studies wellness and longevity, and so I would call 676 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: him very much on the maybe bleeding edges and a 677 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,800 Speaker 1: good word to use with medical terms, but like the 678 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: kind of the very up to the minute on all 679 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: of the latest papers and science and everything like that. 680 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 1: And so he engages with folks like maybe Aroonda Patrick, 681 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 1: who are literally driving the science for what helps you 682 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: be your your healthiest and so that I just find 683 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: really really fascinating. 684 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to check that one out. That sounds really interesting. 685 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: Any newsletters that you that you actually look forward to receiving. 686 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 2: You mentioned you might have a few waiting for you 687 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: in your inbox to be read. What are your favorites. 688 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 1: It's actually a big overlap with the things I just said. 689 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: So Peter Atiya has one, farnarm Street has a Newsleader. 690 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: Yes, I get that one. That's great. 691 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: And there's one other that's kind of new for me 692 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: that I'm joining. A cred Mott has one like it's funny. 693 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 1: It's almost all the same. If I like them enough 694 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 1: to listen to their podcast, I probably am willing to 695 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: get an email from them. One of the others that's 696 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: kind of relatively new, and someone who I'm a huge 697 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,320 Speaker 1: fan of is Kevin Kelly. He is has a website 698 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,439 Speaker 1: kk dot org. Super against someone who's done interesting things 699 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,280 Speaker 1: over decades, including like being one of the co founders 700 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: of Wired magazine, and you know, walking hundreds of miles 701 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: through Asia in like the sixties and seventies, and I 702 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 1: just like, way before anyone else was on things studying 703 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 1: virtual reality in the seventies and eighties. So he has 704 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: one called a Recommendo, which is he and two of 705 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: the folks who are also very interesting go through and 706 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: recommend just a few things each week. That might be 707 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: a book, it might be a thing, it might be 708 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: a movie or a Netflix thing. So I found that 709 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 1: to be really high signal to noise. 710 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 2: H I recently subscribed to that one, and I must 711 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:12,320 Speaker 2: say I'm loving that. 712 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: And finally I'll say one more. 713 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, absolutely. 714 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: It's called the Long Now Foundation, which is actually one 715 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: of the places where I've gone to know Kevin Kelly 716 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: through and they do a series of talks. It's a 717 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: foundation literally dedicated to long term thinking, and so yeah, 718 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: you can imagine their talks being really great and the 719 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: things they publish on their website being also excellent. 720 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: Oh that's cool. That's cool. And finally, it sounds like 721 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 2: you're going to hit about forty five books this Year's 722 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: what's a good one that you've read recently? 723 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: You know, I'll try to recommend some ones that aren't 724 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: like the ones that everyone knows, like I just finished Sapiens, 725 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: but like everyone knows Sapiens. Right. A really great sort 726 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: of collection of nonfiction essays which is called called Howdwighten 727 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: autobiographical novel by a relatively new Korean American author named 728 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:11,439 Speaker 1: Alexander Chi is really fantastic. In terms of a business book, 729 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: I read one called Black Box Thinking by Matthew c. 730 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: Ed I really enjoyed that kind of combined a lot 731 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: of you know, with a lot of business books, they 732 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 1: are duplicative or could be a good article. He did 733 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 1: a great job of bringing together lots of great research 734 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: and other books and putting it into one nice package. 735 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 1: I like reading older stuff, so I recently read The 736 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: Conquest of Happiness by Bertrand Russell and Fiction Knowness Fiction 737 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 1: Knowness I don't know how to pronounce its Spanish originally 738 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:49,319 Speaker 1: in Spanish by Jorge Luis Sporhies. That were both really 739 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: really good. And then if anyone loves sci fi, probably 740 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 1: the most amazing collection of short stories in sci fi 741 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: read is called The Paper Menagerie by this art art. 742 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: He's an artist but author named ken Lou l i U, 743 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: who's probably more famous for being the translator of the 744 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: Three Body Problem from Amandarin to English. So he has 745 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: his own, you know, fiction that he's written that it's 746 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: kind of a mix of sci fi, speculative fiction, and 747 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:22,360 Speaker 1: kind of just history. Actually, that was one of the 748 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: most stop provoking things I've read in many, many years. 749 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 2: Fantastic, loving all those recommendations. Look, it's been sorry, brilliant 750 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 2: talking to you, Matt. If people want to find more 751 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: about you or about WordPress or automatic, where is the 752 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 2: best place to do that? 753 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: Sure? If you would like to be distracted by me 754 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: on Twitter and Instagram, I'm at photomat p H O 755 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: T O m A T T and Twitter is probably 756 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: the one I use a bit more there. I post 757 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: very early the Instagram and use Instagram very rarely. And 758 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: of course my WordPress blogs are great places to find me. 759 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: So I have two Matt dot blog and and then 760 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: m A RTT which is a special extension so just 761 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,960 Speaker 1: open no dot com know anything like that is my 762 00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: main site where I share things I'm reading, articles, quotes, 763 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: and the occasional longer thoughts. 764 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 2: Fantastic, fantastic, Well, thank you so much, Matt. Thank you 765 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 2: for being on the show. I've just loved chat. 766 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Bybye. 767 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 2: Hey there that's it for today's episode. If you're looking 768 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 2: for more tips to improve the way you work, I 769 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,479 Speaker 2: write a short monthly newsletter that contains three cool things 770 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: that I've discovered that helped me work better, which range 771 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,840 Speaker 2: from interesting research findings through the gadgets that I'm loving. 772 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 2: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co. 773 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,919 Speaker 2: That's how I Work dot co. And you're probably sick 774 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,799 Speaker 2: of podcast telling you to give them a review in 775 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 2: iTunes if you like the episode, so I promise I 776 00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 2: won't ask you to do that, but you know, if 777 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 2: the mood stricks you, then go for it. And if 778 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 2: you like this episode and you want more, just hit 779 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,919 Speaker 2: the subscribe button. See you next time.