Speaker 1: Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty
Speaker 1: verdicts against all three defendants.
Speaker 2: It was absolutely shambles, to tell you the truth, just
Speaker 2: absolutely really coming.
Speaker 1: Blood on his clothing. The day after the alleged at.
Speaker 3: Top on a show a mud bank and it fits
Speaker 3: through a river. Basically, I think most of the people
Speaker 3: are used to me are good people. I think a
Speaker 3: really important question we need to ask is how many
Speaker 3: Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent.
Speaker 1: This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the
Speaker 1: blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of
Speaker 1: our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm
Speaker 1: Amy maguire and I'm.
Speaker 3: Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner Support Service.
Speaker 3: And a warning, this series contains the names of deceased
Speaker 3: peoples and has distressing content that might upset some listeners.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Curtain. For the last few weeks, my co
Speaker 4: host Amy mguire has been traveled around Australia with the
Speaker 4: National Justice Projects new initiative called cop Watch. Cop Watch
Speaker 4: is about training and empowering Aboriginal communities to use modern
Speaker 4: technology like mobile phones to document instances of harassment by authorities.
Speaker 4: This is largely to do with interaction with the police,
Speaker 4: where often for no good reason, Aboriginal people are targeted
Speaker 4: by police in an aggressive manner, stopped, searched, manhandled, often
Speaker 4: assaulted and threatened for absolutely no good reason. With the
Speaker 4: ability to become citizen journalists, to combine basic understandings of
Speaker 4: the law and how to use social media and media techniques,
Speaker 4: Aboriginal communities can protect themselves from this kind of harassment
Speaker 4: and abuse and also highlight it to the world in
Speaker 4: an effort to stop this continuing. Over the past fortnight,
Speaker 4: Amy and the team have traveled to Redfern in Sydney,
Speaker 4: Broken Hill in Outback, New South Wales, Alice Springs in
Speaker 4: the Northern Territory, and most recently Cowgooli in Western Australia.
Speaker 4: While they were in Western Australia, it was the one
Speaker 4: year anniversary of the death of mister Elijah Dougherty, a
Speaker 4: young Aboriginal boy who was run down and killed by
Speaker 4: a non Indigenous man who was only convicted, as we've
Speaker 4: discussed on this podcast, of a driving offense. He was
Speaker 4: not convicted of manslaughter despite killing young Elijah. Also joining
Speaker 4: the team is Sean Harris. He's an advocate campaigning against
Speaker 4: black debts in custody and he has very personal reasons
Speaker 4: as to why he's doing this. His niece is missed You,
Speaker 4: who died at the hands of Western Australian law enforcement
Speaker 4: and Western Australian health officials. Amy sat down this week
Speaker 4: in Calgooli with Sean to talk about what they're doing
Speaker 4: with cop Watch, the harassment they face as they go
Speaker 4: about their work, and what Aboriginal people are trying to
Speaker 4: do to empower one another and overcome the threats, abuse,
Speaker 4: harassment and often death suffered at the hands of authorities.
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here with Sean Harris and we're both in Calgurley.
Speaker 1: We've been here traveling around the country together on a
Speaker 1: tour called coop Watch, which is an initiative of the
Speaker 1: National Justice Project and it's basically about informing Aboriginal communities
Speaker 1: of their rights when interacting with police. We've gone to Brokenhill,
Speaker 1: Alice Springs, Redfern and now we're in on the anniversary
Speaker 1: of Elijah Dowdy's death. And listeners to this podcast would
Speaker 1: know about the case of a young teenage boy who
Speaker 1: was run over by a non Indigenous man who subsequently
Speaker 1: was acquitted of manslaughter over his death and got a
Speaker 1: three year sentence for dangerous driving occasionally occasioning death. That
Speaker 1: sentence has been seen by many in the Aboriginal community
Speaker 1: in Calgurley as being far too lenient, and generally across
Speaker 1: the country, Aboriginal people have reacted with anger and seen
Speaker 1: it as.
Speaker 2: The way the.
Speaker 1: Justice system and wider Australia treats the lives of Aboriginal children.
Speaker 1: So it's a very sad day for Seann in particular
Speaker 1: when we're sitting here in a cal Gurley hotel room
Speaker 1: and we're doing this interview. But Sewan, I just wanted
Speaker 1: to start by asking you, I mean, you've seen so
Speaker 1: much sh in Western Australia, you're from this state. What
Speaker 1: does it feel being here, particularly today and knowing what
Speaker 1: we've heard about the way police are dealing with the
Speaker 1: community here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, have I I guess to directly be here today
Speaker 2: is we've other It's pretty hard to explain. We've come
Speaker 2: here with myself with a pretty heavy art because of
Speaker 2: how significant this day is and the last twelve months
Speaker 2: in particular for this the Calgary people out here and
Speaker 2: all the more we just came out here to try
Speaker 2: and support the best that we could, plus to show
Speaker 2: our respects and be here with the family by buying
Speaker 2: as from the family as well. You know, we were
Speaker 2: trying and stick together and try and bring unity together.
Speaker 2: I guess you can say it's there's so much that
Speaker 2: has been going on. You know, I'm still grieving from
Speaker 2: the loss of my big brother back in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: eight from a here was a passenger in a car
Speaker 2: crossery passed away from there was a a a non
Speaker 2: Indigenous driver who pretty much got let off. So where
Speaker 2: m I'm still twenty nine years without justice for my
Speaker 2: past my lost brother as well from a car incidents
Speaker 2: in similar circumstances. I guess you would say the racism
Speaker 2: in Australia and especially in particularly in Kirwall is so
Speaker 2: typical and it typifies the fight and the institutional and
Speaker 2: systemic racism. It's still deeply ingrained as well. It's not
Speaker 2: just through the broader community. So as I said before us,
Speaker 2: with a very heavy heart, they are where are actually
Speaker 2: here today? Just feel so empty and upset and heartbreaking
Speaker 2: for the family of this poor young boy. Most certainly
Speaker 2: as a priority you know, we're all so, we're all
Speaker 2: still in so much shop, the whole border community, especially
Speaker 2: the Indigenous community throughout Australia at the the sheer fast
Speaker 2: known as the West Australian judicial system.
Speaker 1: You've seen that personally, haven't you, with your niece in
Speaker 1: the way police dealt with your own family. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about what happened to your
Speaker 1: niece three years ago?
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, she was a deathing custody back in back
Speaker 2: up in heaven in the pilborgh three three years ago.
Speaker 2: Now so as part of that deeply ingrained and unchecked
Speaker 2: racism that still flourishes throughout the whole state of weststra
Speaker 2: and the country. Indeed, that that has played a significant
Speaker 2: part in the sad loss of both my niece and
Speaker 2: for young Ms Mister Dody. You know, it's sad to
Speaker 2: say that that has brought us together and this has
Speaker 2: has made us any stronger in the fight for both
Speaker 2: of our campaigns for for some sort of justice, for
Speaker 2: these four young people to at least be able to
Speaker 2: rest in peace or some sort of peace, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's up to us to try and keep up the
Speaker 2: fight because obviously they're not here to be able to
Speaker 2: stand up for themselves. So we need to be their
Speaker 2: voice and as to try and amplify their voice, and
Speaker 2: as much as we can, I guess you could.
Speaker 1: Say, how did police treat your niece?
Speaker 2: They treated my these with an extreme deprivation of liberty
Speaker 2: that robbed her or her basic human rights. She was
Speaker 2: being she was pretty much begging for her life, she
Speaker 2: was dying, and all her cries and begs for help
Speaker 2: fell on institutionally deaf iss mm. And you know, racism
Speaker 2: in Australia has, in the past and always will play
Speaker 2: a massively significant role in the deprivation and the oppression
Speaker 2: of our peoples that's continually inflicted, inflicted so freely on
Speaker 2: us on a daily basis. So it's sad to say
Speaker 2: that constant Indigenous all around Australia are pretty much in
Speaker 2: a perpetual state of grief because of the because of
Speaker 2: the system. So it's hard to be able to fight
Speaker 2: and keep up to sustain the campaign for justice in
Speaker 2: any sense when there's no chance to grieve. MM. Yet
Speaker 2: we're still having to mount and start other campaigns for
Speaker 2: justice seemingly left right and center. It's just non stop.
Speaker 2: So a perpetual started grief where we're constantly, constantly unable
Speaker 2: to actually grieve mm so W We're constantly just hurt
Speaker 2: and shattered across the nation, across the whole board. And
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that that institutional racism, be it
Speaker 2: through the broader community or well the deeply ingrain racing
Speaker 2: through the broader community, plus the institutional and systemic racism
Speaker 2: plays a massive role in in in so many issues
Speaker 2: out there, and these are not just indigenous issues. All
Speaker 2: these issues are community issues. And the only way that
Speaker 2: the whole of Australia can move forward is by standing
Speaker 2: up at as one and voicing our probably out as
Speaker 2: a united front. And I guess you would say.
Speaker 1: I've always thought that the way your niece has treated
Speaker 1: so she was crying out for in pain for three
Speaker 1: days and was continually ignored by health authorities and police,
Speaker 1: accused of faking it, accused of being a junkie, all
Speaker 1: the while she was slowly dying from septicemia. I always
Speaker 1: thought that her pain really mirrors your pain because ever
Speaker 1: since she passed away, your family have had to deal with,
Speaker 1: you know, the authorities ignoring you. You've had to deal
Speaker 1: with wider Australia ignoring your own pain. How do you
Speaker 1: think your family have been able to cope in the
Speaker 1: wake of so much injustice and the fact that you've
Speaker 1: really had to campaign all across the country just to
Speaker 1: get Australia to even begin to care. You've had to
Speaker 1: go through such extraordinary lengths just to get Australia to
Speaker 1: understand that your niece was a human being.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, w what privilege plays a a very massive
Speaker 2: role in in this whole process. It's sad. So it's
Speaker 2: still so sad to say that the overwhelming majority of
Speaker 2: the public population and the public message out there are
Speaker 2: still wrapped in some sort of social bubble and they're
Speaker 2: in denial over the sad reality and the facts of
Speaker 2: what's really out there and what's going on on a
Speaker 2: daily basis. It's not just in one sport every day
Speaker 2: around Stoia. It's it's happens everywhere and the fact that
Speaker 2: it's a lot is still being covered up and what
Speaker 2: it was praise that that's why, that's the reason why
Speaker 2: there's no accountability through the system MM and no accountability
Speaker 2: means that there all these issues and especially death in custody.
Speaker 2: You know, it are always gonna happen. Mm. This nothing
Speaker 2: is gonna change if the perpetrators are not held a cannibal,
Speaker 2: as the system always says to the criminals, you know,
Speaker 2: if you do the crime, you've got to do the time. Well,
Speaker 2: the judicial system will never be equal if the watchers
Speaker 2: are never kept accountable as well. I'll go back to
Speaker 2: the racism because racism very obviously is a messive, an
Speaker 2: extremely big problem throughout the strain society. And the only
Speaker 2: way that we can address that in this day, I especially,
Speaker 2: is to stand up as one. So it's very hard.
Speaker 1: Just recently, you've had an encounter when we're in Alice
Speaker 1: Springs with police. Did you feel comfortable talking about how
Speaker 1: they treated you? We're only in you were only in
Speaker 1: others for two days. How did the police treat you there?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, funny thing. I was just actually going to
Speaker 2: a shop to get a bottle of coke actually, and
Speaker 2: there were almost every shop in our springs has a
Speaker 2: bottle shop. So there is a policeman almost at every
Speaker 2: shop in our springs who constantly harass and are constantly
Speaker 2: asking the indigenous people, including the elders, all the time
Speaker 2: and for id just when they have to go into
Speaker 2: a sleep market, so this is before so I actually
Speaker 2: went in. I filmed the police as we pulled up
Speaker 2: from a safe distance, say twenty odd meters away. The
Speaker 2: police apparently did not like that very much, so he
Speaker 2: followed me into a shop and kept threatening that he
Speaker 2: would could take my phone and my device for filming him,
Speaker 2: which I kept saying that he couldn't mean he had
Speaker 2: no rights to and he said, I kept saying that
Speaker 2: he will take my phone. I said no you won't.
Speaker 2: I said no you can't, so he kept I ended
Speaker 2: up having to tell him that I actually flew into
Speaker 2: our springs as a part a team with cot Watch
Speaker 2: team and her purpose was to teach our people was
Speaker 2: about our rots and filming the police. So that was
Speaker 2: a bit of a bit of a wake up called
Speaker 2: bit of surprise for the police to actually hear that
Speaker 2: I was part of a cop watch team. He was
Speaker 2: who just lew in Dalla Springs to try and help
Speaker 2: teach and educate our people on our rights, you know,
Speaker 2: And he actually harassed me and followed me around in
Speaker 2: the shop for a while. Hence we had a bit
Speaker 2: of a confrontation at the front afterwards, after I left
Speaker 2: the supermarket with my bottle of coke at that.
Speaker 1: So you're criminalized just forgetting a bottle of coke, pretty.
Speaker 2: Much, Yeah, that's pretty pretty much so. And he even
Speaker 2: called for back up. I was actually with someone like
Speaker 2: a female, other indigenous female, and and the policeman called
Speaker 2: for backup and actually told the backup to arrest us,
Speaker 2: which obviously didn't happen. The policeman he actually turned up
Speaker 2: for backup, and they didn't want to part of it,
Speaker 2: and they even actually said to my female friend that
Speaker 2: they were we were allowed to fill in the place.
Speaker 2: M But that being said, now, my female friend has
Speaker 2: already been paid a visit by the police since we
Speaker 2: have left, and has been threatened and actually charged with
Speaker 2: or petty really minister trumped up charges you know, because
Speaker 2: of her. And she actually has been or has been
Speaker 2: seriously threatened to be put on the band drinkers register
Speaker 2: as well, which has totally nothing to do with the
Speaker 2: incident that happened. You know, We've got a video proof
Speaker 2: of this police officer as well. So I am actually
Speaker 2: wanted to make a complaint about this, but as soon
Speaker 2: as time they permit, you know, we but yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: not being said that that just typifies the the the
Speaker 2: institutional racism that still flourishes in our springs.
Speaker 1: Do you think it would have happened to a white
Speaker 1: person going in to buy a coke?
Speaker 2: Yeah? No, definitely not. From all everything I've been hearing
Speaker 2: about our springs with the intervention, you know that the
Speaker 2: white people don't ever ever get harassed nice for ID
Speaker 2: at any liquor store or any liquor outlet. It's just
Speaker 2: constantly black people, and only black people. There's maybe half
Speaker 2: percent a white person will actually get ups for ID,
Speaker 2: and there's some glorifying that a half percent.
Speaker 1: I must say, do you trust police after everything that
Speaker 1: you've gone through, but also what happened to your niece
Speaker 1: and what we've seen here in Cargoley.
Speaker 2: It's sad to say I really do not trust place.
Speaker 2: There is no absolutely no place in community relationship. It's
Speaker 2: at at all in the gross majority the the of
Speaker 2: of austrain population, indigenous population. There's no efforts, especially in Karagali,
Speaker 2: there is totally no efforts, a real effort on the
Speaker 2: part of the system to try and to make police
Speaker 2: and citizens relationships simply because I don't wanna mm the
Speaker 2: the level of racism here is is it's it's outstanding.
Speaker 2: It it's so sad to say, I I wanna say,
Speaker 2: it's so unbelievable, it's I'm from Wa Sa. Sadly it's
Speaker 2: it's not unbelievable at all. The unbelievable thing about it
Speaker 2: is that it's still happening. It's still happening so fairly
Speaker 2: and uncounted. Where is the accountability? You know that they
Speaker 2: just keep continuing to try and provoke the people into
Speaker 2: being aggressiveness and it's and it's not our it's not
Speaker 2: our race in general. We're a happy people. Where are
Speaker 2: coined people and we have been for us hundreds thousand years,
Speaker 2: so to p to be able to to have to
Speaker 2: be continually pressed and such rotten and sickening racism being
Speaker 2: slung at us on a on a daily basis, you know,
Speaker 2: and us we're continually expected to just take no notes. Mm.
Speaker 2: That is part of the psychological warfare where the system
Speaker 2: is still trying to break us all down mentally and physically,
Speaker 2: you know, just trying to break our spirits. And it's
Speaker 2: just another sly way of them pushing their wide Australia
Speaker 2: policy and a part of Australia, they're finding more covert
Speaker 2: ways to inflict that kind of side on our people
Speaker 2: and ethnic cleansing, and they're extending the their racial, racially
Speaker 2: biased laws not just against the Indigenous people, but to
Speaker 2: the broader community now as well, which is why the
Speaker 2: broader community is starting to, I guess, get more frustrated
Speaker 2: with the system because they're finally starting to be subjected
Speaker 2: to the laws that we've always been subjected to. The
Speaker 2: police are just expanding thetter actual laws to the whole
Speaker 2: broader community because they're getting away with it with us
Speaker 2: black people. So now they're just yeah, they're just moving on.
Speaker 1: And I still feel the broader community they still view
Speaker 1: police as protectives. They don't believe Aboriginal people even did
Speaker 1: you think, what do you think we need? Oh well,
Speaker 1: I don't think the owners should be on Aboriginal people anyway.
Speaker 1: But how can Australians actually understand that this is a
Speaker 1: real threat. I mean, we saw the video footage of
Speaker 1: your niece's last hours was actually released to the public,
Speaker 1: and yet we're still having to fight to actually get
Speaker 1: people to believe us against the police. It's like white
Speaker 1: Astralia's closer to the police than they'll ever be too
Speaker 1: understanding Aboriginal people because so many Australians don't have direct
Speaker 1: contact with Aboriginal people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it well was. It's still very sad to hear
Speaker 2: that a lot these days. A lot of white people
Speaker 2: who are a lot of white city folk, they see
Speaker 2: an original and they asks an Aboriginal for Indigenous if
Speaker 2: the original, you know, they have not even seen one
Speaker 2: yet and they're thirty forty fifty years old. That is
Speaker 2: so that really is unbeluetable. That's and yet these people
Speaker 2: have to hide to have opinions on Indigenous and they're
Speaker 2: they're always never wrong, and they're always factually right when
Speaker 2: they're when in natural fact, they're not. Just the white
Speaker 2: privilege and the institutional arrogance as well. It's not just
Speaker 2: the racism that's dead being rained through the whole community.
Speaker 2: It's just the arrogance and the the do you European
Speaker 2: hierarchies and classes? You know, we didn't have classes and hierarchies,
Speaker 2: and until they came and invaded and started murdering and
Speaker 2: messaging us. And that's the Western world system. It's not
Speaker 2: our system. We work as community and we always have
Speaker 2: since forever.
Speaker 1: So and just finally, like when you talk about the
Speaker 1: fact that you know we're all fighting similar struggles and
Speaker 1: we have links all across the country. This podcast is
Speaker 1: really detailing a really bad injustice that happened in my
Speaker 1: hometown of Rock campdon in nine ninety one, and the
Speaker 1: man who was wrongfully convicted over the murder of an
Speaker 1: Aboriginal woman who there's never justice over her death. He's
Speaker 1: still inside. Do you have any messages of support for him?
Speaker 1: Considering you know those messages of unity, how do you
Speaker 1: recommend we keep going and we continue fighting.
Speaker 2: Yeah? Also hard on this case is obviously say it's
Speaker 2: distressing as well to know of them, to try and
Speaker 2: keep track of as much as possible. You know, this
Speaker 2: also typifies the system. All I can say is that
Speaker 2: there is support there, and there is help we are trying.
Speaker 2: We're all spread safein. Is the thing as well, or
Speaker 2: all the people who are trying to do this and
Speaker 2: that for the community and trying to enforce change, we're
Speaker 2: all spread safein. It makes it hard to actually being together.
Speaker 2: And as well as this country being so massive and
Speaker 2: all our people being so oppressed, it makes it harder
Speaker 2: to actually cross country to help and support all of
Speaker 2: our peoples across the country, you know, But yeah, I
Speaker 2: guess trying not to give up. We all have to
Speaker 2: keep fighting it and say very hard it seriously does.
Speaker 2: It's so hard to even get up out of it
Speaker 2: and think, how are we gonna s start this day after?
Speaker 2: You know, when every day is almost as bad as
Speaker 2: in the next. I guess it's just in our blood's
Speaker 2: a that's just who we are to try and help
Speaker 2: who we can mm and even if we have nothing,
Speaker 2: that's just what we do, how we look after each
Speaker 2: other as a communion, and that's the way we've worked
Speaker 2: since for us since just as our elders, elders and accesss.
Speaker 2: Did you know, we can't change that out the drop
Speaker 2: of a hat, because that's who we are. It's it's
Speaker 2: built in. Say yeah, the help and support is there.
Speaker 2: It's just that a lot of time, it's so frustrating
Speaker 2: that we don't see that help and support as much,
Speaker 2: but it is there. Yeah, so please don't give up.
Speaker 2: We like I'm saying, we're all spread safin, but we
Speaker 2: all help each other out when we can, and we
Speaker 2: are only getting stronger. Boy, as a whole community, as
Speaker 2: a national front in the whole community sense australog Yes,
Speaker 2: thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Our thanks to Sean for all the work he's been
Speaker 4: doing over the last few years, the work he continues
Speaker 4: to do, and for taking the time to sit down
Speaker 4: to speak with Amy and Curtain. Think about what you've
Speaker 4: just heard in that interview with Sean. Here is a
Speaker 4: human rights campaigner, an advocate trying to prevent black deaths
Speaker 4: in custody, whose own brother was tragically taken, whose own
Speaker 4: niece died at the hands of Western Australian police and
Speaker 4: the Western Australian health system. Nobody has been accountable for
Speaker 4: those deaths, and Sean is not trying to help just
Speaker 4: his family but all Aboriginal people around the country. But
Speaker 4: imagine the stress at places on people and on communities
Speaker 4: that their family members are murdered by the state and
Speaker 4: yet they're the ones that have to travel the country
Speaker 4: trying to get justice. Imagine the psychological toll this takes.
Speaker 4: This is why it's vital that projects like ours Curtain,
Speaker 4: where we're highlighting what is being done to Aboriginal people.
Speaker 4: The injustices right around the country are not only supported,
Speaker 4: but that the individuals like sean on the ground who
Speaker 4: are doing the hard work are supported too. What you
Speaker 4: heard in this podcast today was the fact that a
Speaker 4: young man who's going about his work, who's trying to
Speaker 4: teach people about human rights, is still targeted by law enforcement,
Speaker 4: harassed and threatened even though he is doing absolutely nothing wrong.
Speaker 4: Why is it a crime to buy a bottle of
Speaker 4: coke in this country and it's only that for Aboriginal
Speaker 4: and Torres Strait Islander people. Sadly, the burden on changing
Speaker 4: this cannot be left solely to the Aboriginal community. This
Speaker 4: will continue to happen. The deaths nearly four hundred in
Speaker 4: just the last twenty five years in custody, and the
Speaker 4: constant harassment of Aboriginal people on a daily basis in
Speaker 4: every town and city in this country will continue until
Speaker 4: non Indigenous people decide to join the fight. Aboriginal people
Speaker 4: and their communities need to be supported, empowered, and given
Speaker 4: the resources to fight back, to stand up for their rights,
Speaker 4: and to be able to live the peaceful, safe existence
Speaker 4: that they deserve and always had done until these law
Speaker 4: enforcement officials were forced upon them. It's unacceptable in twenty
Speaker 4: seventeen that a black professional man can't go into a
Speaker 4: shop and buy a coke without being threatened and harassed
Speaker 4: and verbaled by a police officer. Whether that changes is
Speaker 4: not down to Sean. Shawn's done nothing wrong. He's sacrificing
Speaker 4: his own time, money and resources, his own mental and
Speaker 4: physical strength to help the wider community. So it's about
Speaker 4: time Nonindigenous people stand up, whether it's Kevin Henry in Queensland,
Speaker 4: Miss dw and Young Elijah in Wa, mister Briscoe in
Speaker 4: the Northern Territory, an Aboriginal Entirestraate island, of people all
Speaker 4: over this country on a daily basis dying, being beaten,
Speaker 4: harassed and killed by police and the state. This will
Speaker 4: not end until you take action and you provide the
Speaker 4: support that First Nations people vitally need. We'll be back
Speaker 4: next week for another episode of Curtin with more information
Speaker 4: about Kevin Henry's case, the latest details, and more information
Speaker 4: about what's happening around the country. Until then, I urge
Speaker 4: you to follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and join the
Speaker 4: effort by helping us with our Patreon account. All that
Speaker 4: information is available across social media and on our website
Speaker 4: www dot Curtin, the podcast dot com