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Speaker 1: Well, we think, particularly for people leaders, as we try

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Speaker 1: to think of our role as to find a way

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Speaker 1: to yes, so rather than you know, go into a

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Speaker 1: lot of meetings and people think it's their job to

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Speaker 1: say no. Really, my job is if someone's brought me

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Speaker 1: a proposal, is to try to work out how to

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Speaker 1: get it to yes.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics

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Speaker 2: used by the world's most successful people to get so

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Speaker 2: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba.

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Speaker 2: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium,

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Speaker 2: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work date.

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Speaker 2: My guest on today's Best Of episode is Paul Migliarini.

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Speaker 2: Paul leads the Amazon Web Services business across Australia and

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Speaker 2: New Zealand, which is a role that he's been in

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Speaker 2: for the last four years. Prior to joining a WS,

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Speaker 2: Paul held senior leadership roles in Asia and Australia with

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Speaker 2: bt Motorola, Regis and Ernst and Young and most recent

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Speaker 2: as the CEO for Regis A and Z and the

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Speaker 2: Regional Managing Director for South Asia at BT SO. I

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Speaker 2: was really keen to have Paul on the show because

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Speaker 2: I've heard so many things about Amazon's culture and just

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Speaker 2: their ways of working, which I find fascinating. And there

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Speaker 2: is nothing better than and able to get an insider's

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Speaker 2: perspective on how it all works. So if you've ever

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Speaker 2: wondered what goes on behind the scenes of one of

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Speaker 2: the world's biggest, fastest growing, and most powerful companies, I

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Speaker 2: think you'll love this chat with Paul. So on that note,

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Speaker 2: let's go to Paul to hear about how he works. Paul,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show. Great to be I want to

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Speaker 2: start with what we were just talking about before we

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Speaker 2: started recording, and this is that you've been having email

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Speaker 2: and calendar problems on your phone and now you're actually

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Speaker 2: going to change your behavior as a result of what happened.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that.

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Speaker 1: So it's totally by accident, and as I say, constraint

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Speaker 1: does breed innovation in many cases. And so I had

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Speaker 1: an issue with I with my phone, so for some

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Speaker 1: reason that I still haven't resolved, my email and the

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Speaker 1: calendar stopped working and I just haven't gotten around to

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Speaker 1: getting it fixed. And so I've been living in this

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Speaker 1: world without email and calendar. And my realization is that

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Speaker 1: I really miss my calendar, but I don't miss my email.

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Speaker 1: And it's helped me be a lot more present and

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Speaker 1: helped me manage the context switching that happens during my

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Speaker 1: work day, but equally the context switshing that needs to

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Speaker 1: happen when I go home in a much more effective way.

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Speaker 1: So you're very intentional about when you look at your

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Speaker 1: email and when you're focused on it what you do

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Speaker 1: with it. And I'm thinking it's contributing to a pretty

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Speaker 1: good increasing productivity. So when and if I get my

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Speaker 1: phone fixed, I think I will leave my email off

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Speaker 1: and put my calendar back on. But it's been a

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Speaker 1: really positive change by accident.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome. And so you're saying when you get home,

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Speaker 2: like rather than in the pre broken phone days, you

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Speaker 2: might maybe check your email a few times, like throughout

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Speaker 2: the night, because it's just so easy to do when

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Speaker 2: it's on your phone, But now it's intentional. You open

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Speaker 2: up your laptop once and check totally.

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Speaker 1: And because you know, in our world and I think

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Speaker 1: most people would work in this way, you're working across

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Speaker 1: multiple time zones, you know, within Australia and New Zealand,

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Speaker 1: but around the world, and so you've got these threads

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Speaker 1: that stay open, and you're trying to process things in

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Speaker 1: real time because customers are looking for quick results, and

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Speaker 1: so you tend to just continue to look at things

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Speaker 1: because you've got so many things that are open. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's productive because you can be really responsive, but most

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Speaker 1: of the time it's not, because you get distracted by

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Speaker 1: a whole raft of things. It could easily wait till

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Speaker 1: another time, a more formal time.

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Speaker 2: Yes, because I was going to ask, like there must

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Speaker 2: be listeners kind of going, yeah, but what if there's

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Speaker 2: an emergency that you're going to miss, what do you

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Speaker 2: say to that?

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Speaker 1: People can call or they can send an SMS or

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Speaker 1: or something like that. And so there are other means

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Speaker 1: to get in touch.

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Speaker 2: That's right, there are, aren't they? We forget about the barone. Yes,

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Speaker 2: good old fashioned calling. Yes. Well, I want to dig

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Speaker 2: into Amazon's leadership principles because I think they're really interesting

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Speaker 2: and maybe for those really most listeners are not aware

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Speaker 2: of the leadership princes. Can you just explain briefly what

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Speaker 2: they are, why they exist?

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Speaker 1: Sure, So we have fourteen of these principles that the

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Speaker 1: best way to think about it, I think is as

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Speaker 1: an operating system for the company. So there's a set

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Speaker 1: of principles that are booke ended by two the first

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Speaker 1: being customer obsession, which is that everything we do in

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Speaker 1: the company starts with a customer and works backwards, and

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Speaker 1: we try to take a really long term perspective to

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Speaker 1: that and keep customer trusts out kind of core true north.

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Speaker 1: And the other end of the book end is deliver results.

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Speaker 1: And then there's twelve other principles that sit between those two,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it started goes back to kind

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Speaker 1: of the early days of the company when we floated

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety seven, Jeff Bezos wrote a letter to

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Speaker 1: shareholders and said some important things. In that letter. He said,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're going to build a company that's really

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Speaker 1: focused on the customer, and we're going to index on

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Speaker 1: the long term and not be thrown off course by

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Speaker 1: short term sort of market forces or other things that

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Speaker 1: make it in the way of us and our customers.

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Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of those principles and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of others have been codified over the years

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Speaker 1: into the four Leadership Principles, and what we try to

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Speaker 1: do is as an organization is operate in a very

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Speaker 1: decentralized way where people close to the customer can be

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Speaker 1: really clear on how to make good quality decisions at

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Speaker 1: high velocity velocity without having to refer them back to

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Speaker 1: managers or even to head office for decision making. So

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Speaker 1: it helps us move really really quickly, and it helps

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Speaker 1: us make good quality decisions around what we're trying to

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Speaker 1: do for our customers. And really it's one of the

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Speaker 1: big fundamentals on how we can move really quickly, and

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of absolute bedrock of how we run

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Speaker 1: our company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fourteen, Like that's a lot. And one of them's frugality,

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Speaker 2: which just sort of seems odds with having fourteen principles,

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Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah, So I do want to delve

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Speaker 2: into maybe frugality first and tell me about what does

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Speaker 2: that mean and how does that actually play out. Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, we're just talking about lunch before and apparently

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Speaker 2: Amazon's not giving you a free lunch what you're a

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Speaker 2: tech company.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a couple of aspects to this principle of frugality.

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Speaker 1: One of them is that we believe really fundamentally in

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Speaker 1: this idea of investing in things that we can directly

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Speaker 1: correlate with benefit to our customers. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: think that, you know, a lot of these superfluous benefits

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Speaker 1: don't right, We try to It's not as though where

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Speaker 1: we don't spend. I think, as I recall one last year,

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Speaker 1: we were one of, if not the largest spending globally

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Speaker 1: in the context of R and D, you know, over

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Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars in R and D. But we try

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Speaker 1: to make sure that investment is deliberately focused on creating

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Speaker 1: value for our customers. So that's one big aspect of it.

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Speaker 1: We try to be really disciplined about that. The other

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Speaker 1: big aspect of frugality is this notion of constraint. You know,

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Speaker 1: so when you do actively constrain resources, typically what you

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Speaker 1: find is that you come up with really interesting ways

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Speaker 1: to solve problems. So in a world where you have

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Speaker 1: unlimited resources, you probably aren't going to be a particularly

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Speaker 1: innovative company because you don't have to be. But when

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Speaker 1: you're actively constraining resources, you tend to find really creative

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Speaker 1: ways to solve problems. So that's a couple of the

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Speaker 1: fundamentals that sit behind this notion of frugality, and it's

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Speaker 1: a really important leadership principle, and often most people will

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Speaker 1: say it's one of the more difficult ones because we're

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Speaker 1: growing so quickly and investing so readily and in so

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Speaker 1: many important things, and you know, we try to think

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Speaker 1: really big, which is another one of our leadership principles,

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Speaker 1: and be very expansive as to how we think about

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Speaker 1: creating value for our customers. And you have to invest

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Speaker 1: a lot, you know, and then to actively constrain resources

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Speaker 1: at the same time is quite a difficult discipline, but

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Speaker 1: a really important one.

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Speaker 2: And so can you give me an example of where

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Speaker 2: you've had to apply that in a way. I guess

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Speaker 2: that's been challenging for you and your role.

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Speaker 1: So typically what will happen is, you know, we will

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Speaker 1: get an investment plan and often the teams will be saying, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking to you know, there's this many customers and

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Speaker 1: we believe fundamentally we can we can help them in

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Speaker 1: a really interesting ways, and therefore we need this, you know,

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Speaker 1: this level of investment, and we'll go, okay, that's interesting,

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Speaker 1: but you know, how would you do that with half

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Speaker 1: the investment? Because we're constantly thinking about this idea of

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Speaker 1: scale and in particular the notion of doing it in

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Speaker 1: a non linear way. You know, so as we're trying

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Speaker 1: to grow our business, you know, how can we be

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Speaker 1: doing it in a way that's not proportional ae where

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Speaker 1: because that's allmly not effective in the long term. So

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Speaker 1: we'll consciously say well, okay, you can have half or

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Speaker 1: you can have a quarter, and invariably what happens is

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Speaker 1: it's super interesting because the team go away and because

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Speaker 1: it's conditioned through our principles, it's not a real frustration.

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Speaker 1: People know that's why we're doing it, and it's just

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Speaker 1: as a forcing function to go away and think about

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Speaker 1: a problem in a very different way, and most people

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Speaker 1: find it to be pretty useful.

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Speaker 2: So would that then be unusual to give a project

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Speaker 2: the full funding that has been requested.

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Speaker 1: It really depends. I mean, we are investing, you know,

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Speaker 1: really really heavily, you know, lots of people, and that's

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Speaker 1: because the market opportunity is there and we see that

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Speaker 1: customers are driving a lot of value from the work

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Speaker 1: we're doing, and therefore we're investing against that. And so

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Speaker 1: there's a tension, you know, between the two. And it's

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Speaker 1: a question of how well you manage that tension. I

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Speaker 1: guess that just coming back to leadership principles for a moment,

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Speaker 1: I mean, part of the way or one of the

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Speaker 1: easier ways I think to think about it, is that

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Speaker 1: we have this kind of fundamental belief around the company

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Speaker 1: that we are a company where builders come to build.

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Speaker 1: And so this notion of being a builder, it really

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Speaker 1: is the embodiment of these fourteen leadership principles that you

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Speaker 1: really focused on invention, you really want to think big,

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Speaker 1: you have a strong level of ownership and biace for

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Speaker 1: action around how you solve customers, and so you can

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Speaker 1: roll all of those principles up into this idea of

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Speaker 1: being builders. And we think that everyone's a leader and

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Speaker 1: everyone should be a builder and really therefore represent those

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Speaker 1: principles in a really kind of effective way.

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Speaker 2: So how does that relate, like in terms of everyone's

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Speaker 2: a builder. If you're in say sales marketing or something

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Speaker 2: like that, like you're not an engineer, how do those

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Speaker 2: people conceptualize that.

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Speaker 1: I can give you a real example. So my current manager,

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Speaker 1: Ed who was my predecessor in my current role a

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Speaker 1: number of years ago, now four or five years ago,

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Speaker 1: was looking at what we're doing for our customers, and

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Speaker 1: he had a hypothesis around this notion of global customers

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Speaker 1: and how they wanted to deploy tech. And so he

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Speaker 1: had an idea basically, and he wrote it up in

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Speaker 1: a six page and he said, look, we need to

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Speaker 1: think about building a new organizational unit that's really built

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Speaker 1: specifically for the needs of these global multinationals who who

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Speaker 1: want to consume tech in different ways. They're highly distributed.

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Speaker 1: And so he wrote a six pager and when build

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Speaker 1: a entirely new business today is a multi billion dollar

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Speaker 1: business from a six page document. So that's a really

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Speaker 1: good example in the world of sales of how this

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Speaker 1: works today. We have a team of people here who

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Speaker 1: are doing an incredible work around this idea of what

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Speaker 1: we call the cognitive customer experience. So we've got a

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Speaker 1: platform that effectively creates a software based contact center called

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Speaker 1: Amazon Connect. But equally, what we're seeing is that loads

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Speaker 1: of customers are looking to integrate that with AI and

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Speaker 1: a whole raft of other things that will help them

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Speaker 1: to transform the customer experience. And so we created a

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Speaker 1: small team we called it a two pizza team of

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Speaker 1: builders who are out there.

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Speaker 2: And I can explain what you mean by a two

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Speaker 2: pizza team that are not familiar with that chanel.

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Speaker 1: So it's essentially a small cross functional team that has

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Speaker 1: their requisite skills within it to operate completely autonomously. And

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Speaker 1: the idea is that what we want in terms of

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Speaker 1: scale is a team that it's kind that you could

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Speaker 1: feed with two pizzas is the basic rule of thumb.

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Speaker 1: So we think it kind of ten to twelve people roughly.

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Speaker 1: And the reason we try to keep it small is

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Speaker 1: because what happens is as teams grow is you tend

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Speaker 1: to have to create a whole series of mechanisms to

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Speaker 1: establish to manage cross functional communication. So what happens is

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Speaker 1: once you get to a certain level of scale, you're

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Speaker 1: building all of these overheads into the team and it

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Speaker 1: impairs your ability to move fast. So we call it

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Speaker 1: a two pizza team and have a principle around scaling

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Speaker 1: those teams horizontally that enables us to move fast. So

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Speaker 1: we created this two pizza team around Connect and today

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Speaker 1: we've got many, many hundreds of customers across Australia and

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Speaker 1: New Zealand using the Connect platform integrated with a whole

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Speaker 1: aft of our artificial intelligence services to think in a

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Speaker 1: very different way around improving the customer experience. And there's

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Speaker 1: many of those types of examples.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like the idea of scaling horizontally. That's an

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Speaker 2: interesting way of putting it. And I've heard Bezos say

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Speaker 2: that he would prefer two completely separate teams working on

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Speaker 2: the same thing and not knowing about each other's work,

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Speaker 2: and then just kind of finding out after the resources

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Speaker 2: have been used. Can you maybe go into that a

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Speaker 2: little bit, because I feel like that's a really challenging

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Speaker 2: concept for most organizations that are organized and really structural.

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Speaker 1: As a leadership principle, that's kind of helpful there. It's

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Speaker 1: called having a bias for action, and so we believe

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Speaker 1: that one is probably better than two, but equally too

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Speaker 1: is a whole lot better than zero. And what we

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Speaker 1: mean by that is that doing nothing is not a

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Speaker 1: good answer. So invariably, what we accept that if we

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Speaker 1: have a bias for action and we see an opportunity,

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Speaker 1: rather than stopping and waiting and aligning all of the

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Speaker 1: resources and making sure there's no waste, invariably what tends

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Speaker 1: to happen in a lot of companies is nothing right,

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Speaker 1: And we accept that in some cases, what we might

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Speaker 1: create is a situation where there may be two people

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Speaker 1: or two groups of people doing the same thing or

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Speaker 1: even more. But if we're moving forward around the customer's

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Speaker 1: agenda and we've got good rigor in what we're doing

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Speaker 1: and we're learning, then ultimately it's going to be better

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Speaker 1: than doing nothing because we'll learn and at some point

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Speaker 1: in the future we may consolidate or aligne or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but it's way better than doing nothing. So accept that

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Speaker 1: in moving fast and having a bias for action, there

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Speaker 1: may be some waste.

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Speaker 2: So how does that then sit with you as a leader,

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Speaker 2: Because again, I would imagine most senior leaders it is

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Speaker 2: important for them to retain control and understand what's going

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Speaker 2: on in every pocket of the organization and feel like

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Speaker 2: they're all like across it. But I would imagine it

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Speaker 2: couldn't be like that here based on that. What's that?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I often tell people that

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Speaker 1: you don't do a whole lot of management work at Amazon.

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Speaker 1: You do a whole lot of coaching, and the leadership

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Speaker 1: principles become really helpful there because you know, we're hoping

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Speaker 1: that people are out in front of customers making great

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Speaker 1: decisions and helping customers in a really effective way. And

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Speaker 1: the last thing I want to do is get in

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Speaker 1: the way of that. I want to give them as

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Speaker 1: much freedom to do that work as I possibly can,

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Speaker 1: because it'll enable them to move faster, and we'll learn

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Speaker 1: from that and we'll just get better and better over time.

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Speaker 1: In terms of helping our customers, what we try to

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Speaker 1: focus on, rather than outputs is a set of inputs.

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Speaker 1: So we try to feel really convicted around the inputs.

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Speaker 1: You know, in the case of the cognitive c X

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Speaker 1: work that we're doing, we look at, you know, how

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Speaker 1: many customers are experimenting with a platform. We look at

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Speaker 1: how much value they're getting from it. We look at

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Speaker 1: the skills that they might otherwise need to be able

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Speaker 1: to really affect change and get value from the platform.

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Speaker 1: So we'd measure those sorts of inputs and make sure

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Speaker 1: that we're applying our effort on the right inputs, because then,

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Speaker 1: you know, what we try to do is apply the

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Speaker 1: test that says, well, let's then measure the causality to outputs,

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Speaker 1: you know, which might be sort of a set of

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Speaker 1: business goals might be in our case, it may be

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Speaker 1: revenue or sales or the p and l or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and as long as we feel like we're convicted on

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Speaker 1: the right inputs, then it's really about ensuring that we're

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Speaker 1: supporting the teams effectively and enabling them as much freedom

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Speaker 1: as possible to move quickly in front of the customer. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Kind that's interesting, so kind of like lead versus lag measures,

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Speaker 2: I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you could call them leads. You know, we use

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Speaker 1: the term inputs quite intentionally, and we do measure a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. We're a very data driven organization and

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Speaker 1: we try to be very, very convicted and have a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of rigor on in terms of what we

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Speaker 1: measure and the inputs we measure. So that's some of

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Speaker 1: the thing we think about, and hopefully those inputs really

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Speaker 1: guide us to the things that are most important for

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Speaker 1: our customers and in the fullness of time, we think

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Speaker 1: that'll mean that will create value for us.

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Speaker 2: Now, you mentioned bias for action as one of the

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Speaker 2: leadership principles. There's also deep dive is another one. And

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Speaker 2: for me, kind of when I was looking through them

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Speaker 2: and thinking about them, they feel kind of at odds

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Speaker 2: and I want to know how do they actually play

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Speaker 2: together and complement each other.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's certainly a tension there, and that tensions quite deliberate.

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Speaker 1: So the way we think about that particular aspect is

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Speaker 1: that it comes down to judgment, which is embodied by

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Speaker 1: another Leedgshire principle called write a lot, and we try

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Speaker 1: to ensure that we're making a judgment call. In this case,

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Speaker 1: the judgment call is built around the type of decision,

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Speaker 1: and so we think about decisions in two forms. We

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Speaker 1: think about a decision being a two way door, that

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Speaker 1: it's inherently reversible, in which case we should index on

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Speaker 1: moving quickly even if we don't have perfect information. We

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Speaker 1: just need to kind of use into wish and judgment

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Speaker 1: and move really quickly. Equally, if we take the view

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Speaker 1: that it's what we call a one way door, so

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Speaker 1: inherently irreversible, then we expect that our leaders and by

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Speaker 1: the way, everyone inside Amazon is a leader, so when

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Speaker 1: I talk about leaders, I'm talking about everybody as opposed

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Speaker 1: to people leaders. Then we expect our leaders to exercise

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Speaker 1: good judgment and dive deep and go really deep into

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Speaker 1: the problem, get to the root of the opportunity or

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Speaker 1: the root of the challenges in a very rigorous data

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Speaker 1: driven way to ensure that we're making as good as

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Speaker 1: decision as we possibly could. And so that's how we

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Speaker 1: think about that.

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Speaker 2: Is it always obvious whether the door is one way

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Speaker 2: or two ways?

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Speaker 1: No, it's not always obvious, which is why we rely

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Speaker 1: on good judgment. You know, we're hoping that people can see, hey,

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Speaker 1: this is you know, I think in most cases it's

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Speaker 1: reasonably obvious when you look at a decision and go, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I can see how that's inherently reversible. Like

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Speaker 1: if we've got that wrong, as long as we've got

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Speaker 1: good rigor around what we're learning, then you know, we'll

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Speaker 1: pivot and iterate in an effective way. Equally, if it's

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Speaker 1: a really big decision, and you've seen some of those,

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Speaker 1: there's really big decisions you know that we've made invariably

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Speaker 1: people like Jeff Bezos and in our case Andy Jasse

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Speaker 1: you are super involved in those decisions, and everyone goes

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Speaker 1: really deep on those specific decisions. But usually it is,

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Speaker 1: but in some cases not so much.

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Speaker 2: I feel like, disagree and commit gets a lot of

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Speaker 2: pr as one of the leadership principles, And can you

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Speaker 2: explain for those that haven't come across it what it means?

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Speaker 2: And then I'm curious how you have personally gone about

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Speaker 2: applying that, because I think it's a challenging one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's one of my absolute favorites on

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Speaker 1: many levels. The root of the principle is this idea

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Speaker 1: that you know, if you have if you're a scenario

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Speaker 1: where we're in a room for context that has white

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Speaker 1: walls and there's another wall that is black, and you know,

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Speaker 1: we could have a debate as to whether the wall

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Speaker 1: is white or black. And what happens in many companies

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Speaker 1: is you tend to land on consensus and you go, okay,

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Speaker 1: let's agree that it's great, but the answer is that

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Speaker 1: wall's white and ambiguously white. And so what we should

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Speaker 1: do is we should have a really robust and rigorous

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Speaker 1: argument that gets us to the right answer, and let's

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Speaker 1: have a lot of backbone about that, you know, and

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Speaker 1: make sure that you know, if we have a strong

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Speaker 1: opinion on it, we're putting that opinion on the table

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Speaker 1: in really forthright ways and because it'll we believe it

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Speaker 1: will get us to a better quality answer. And we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be meek and mild about that, and we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be consensus based because ultimately, if we land on the

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Speaker 1: wrong answer, it's going to be mean about outcome for

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Speaker 1: our customer. And so what we try to do is

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Speaker 1: we try to build a bunch of cultural conditions that

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Speaker 1: say it's really okay to have a very rigorous debate. Now,

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Speaker 1: clearly it needs to be respectful, it needs to be

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Speaker 1: data driven, but it needs to be forthright, and we

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Speaker 1: expect people to have a load of backbone on that.

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Speaker 1: And it's good because it creates a level of permission.

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Speaker 1: And what happens is we you know, it's a big

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Speaker 1: part of how we recruit people that you know, we

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Speaker 1: have an expectation that you're going to going to really

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Speaker 1: fight your corner on a position if you think it's

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Speaker 1: important for customers, you're not going to back down for

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Speaker 1: unless you you know, you've really made your case clearly.

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Speaker 1: And then the other part of it, of course, is

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Speaker 1: to say, look, when we've made a decision, then let's

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Speaker 1: make sure we've made it, you know, and nobody is

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Speaker 1: second guessing the decision, because we'll choose to move forward.

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Speaker 1: And so I find it's really really helpful because most

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Speaker 1: of the people I work with at whatever level I

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Speaker 1: can rely upon to give me a really honest, data

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Speaker 1: driven view on a perspective, and that's really really useful.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to second guess or assume

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Speaker 1: that people won't most people, I would hope all people

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Speaker 1: inside our company will.

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Speaker 2: So how does that work in a meeting then, because

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Speaker 2: normally I'm just thinking about a typical meeting where it's

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Speaker 2: a consensus based decision as it is that you know

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Speaker 2: nine to nine percent of companies and you know when

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Speaker 2: the meeting has finished because you've reached consensus. But here, like,

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Speaker 2: how how do you know when you've reached the decision

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Speaker 2: because you don't have that natural consensus of closure.

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Speaker 1: Well, we try to make sure that we make a

438
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:44,159
Speaker 1: clear decision, and most meetings are kind of unusual in

439
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,679
Speaker 1: the sense that we do really believe in being very

440
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,199
Speaker 1: data driven and rigorous in our decision making, and we

441
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 1: have a mechanism for that. Most meetings, by the way,

442
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,160
Speaker 1: internally we don't use PowerPoint. Most meetings are governed by

443
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:00,960
Speaker 1: a sixty well and as long as six page narrative.

444
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: But it's a written form narrative. And the reason we

445
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: use a narrative is because it does that job right.

446
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,560
Speaker 1: You're not relying on interpretation you're not using high level,

447
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 1: superficial data and know nice pictures. You're actually having to

448
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 1: write a long form narrative and you have to substantiate

449
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 1: the statements you make in that narrative with clear data,

450
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 1: and when they're well written. What we find is it's

451
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,879
Speaker 1: really useful because at the start of a meeting, we

452
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,720
Speaker 1: stop and we read it and usually take fifteen to

453
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 1: twenty minutes in silence to read it, and it gets

454
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 1: everyone onto the same page in a really effective way,

455
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:33,399
Speaker 1: really quickly. And what I tend to find and we

456
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 1: have basically a set of principles around how these meetings

457
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,920
Speaker 1: should run, which is that people that the senior most

458
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,639
Speaker 1: person in the room should speak last so as not

459
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,479
Speaker 1: to introduce any any bias inadvertently, and then we have

460
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 1: a robust debate and then the opinions of the senior

461
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,320
Speaker 1: person you're kind of informed by everyone else's opinion, and

462
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:54,480
Speaker 1: then typically we get a fairly clear decision as a

463
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 1: consequence of that. So I find that that mechanism, in particular,

464
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 1: that narrative is really helpful to getting clear decisions, you know,

465
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 1: and that have backbone disagree and commit principle is clearly

466
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: at work. But what happens is with the document is

467
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 1: you do tend to get a lot of rich data

468
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 1: that kind of removes a lot of the interpretation and

469
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,760
Speaker 1: subjectivity that you often see with PowerPoint in other organizations.

470
00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to come back to the six page narrative,

471
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 2: but on the disagreeing commit for you, how how do

472
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 2: you manage that just internally because I imagine there must have

473
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 2: been many decisions that you disagreed on but had to

474
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: commit to. Like how how internally has that worked? Yeah?

475
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 1: Totally fine. I mean I love it, you know, you

476
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,040
Speaker 1: know because I feel and certainly it's the case with

477
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,959
Speaker 1: the people I work directly with, is that you know,

478
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: you really, you really are expected to have a strong,

479
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: strong opinion. And actually it's it counts against you if

480
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: you have an opinion and you don't share it. So

481
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you my opinion, but you know,

482
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: the expectation is you do it in a very objective,

483
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,800
Speaker 1: data driven way, and so here's the basis of my opinion,

484
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 1: and you'll have a good quality argument and it's not subjective,

485
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: it's objective, and you tend to get the argument or

486
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: conversation built around the right things, and you get to

487
00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 1: a much clearer decision. And you know, it's happened many

488
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,000
Speaker 1: times that decisions have gone against me, and I feel

489
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: totally fine about that because it's not as though you're

490
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: having voiced an opinion and you usually what you find

491
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: is that it's a good, considered decision that gets made,

492
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 1: even if it's one that you probably don't agree with,

493
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 1: And so I find it to be really effective.

494
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 2: How do you pick up for that in recruitment? Because

495
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,959
Speaker 2: I feel like so many cultures, my own workplace culture

496
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 2: and Inventium included, like we've got very nice, agreeable people,

497
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: and I love this principle of Amazon's and you know,

498
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: it reminds me of radical candor, and like there are

499
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,959
Speaker 2: sort of lots of versions you know of that, I guess, So,

500
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,199
Speaker 2: how do you pick up for that in recruitment to

501
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 2: find someone that's actually going to thrive in a disagreeing

502
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: commit environment.

503
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we test for it. And the way we test

504
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 1: for it is that we have another leadership principle called

505
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: hire and develop the best, And the thinking behind that

506
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 1: leadership principle is that we want every person who comes

507
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: into the organization to be a creative. In the context

508
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: of our company, culture that they're bringing something that's additive,

509
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: and the test we use is that they're better than

510
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 1: fifty percent of people already in that role. So we

511
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: try to apply an empirical test to that, and then

512
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: we have a mechanism that we call the loop. And

513
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: in the loop, it's quite a a structured process where

514
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: a candidate who usually has already met a competency bar

515
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: goes into a process and specifically, what we're trying to

516
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 1: test for is whether the person is raise the bar

517
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: in the context of our culture. And each of the

518
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: interviewers in the loop is assigned to one or two

519
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: leadership principles, and we'll ask a series of questions related

520
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,320
Speaker 1: to gathering data as to whether that person raises the

521
00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 1: bar or not against the leadership principles, and then we

522
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 1: have a debrief at the end and we compare data points,

523
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: and one of those leadership principles will always be have backbone,

524
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: disagree and commit, and we'll have a conversation about it.

525
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: If we don't feel like the person raises the bar,

526
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 1: we'll talk about why and whether we feel like it

527
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 1: can be mitigated, because nobody is going to be perfect

528
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: against forteen leadership principles. It's usually the case, but the

529
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: question is can they be mitigated and do we feel

530
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 1: like the strengths outwigh some of the perhaps risks that

531
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: we see, and then what happens, which one of the

532
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: things I really like is we have typically in recruitment processes,

533
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: you have a lot of biases that are built into

534
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,720
Speaker 1: recruitment processes. You have a bias from the hiring manager

535
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: who's invariably got it incentive to hire you because at

536
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 1: that particular point in time he or she may not

537
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 1: have someone in the role and therefore is suffering as

538
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: a consequence of doing two jobs. You know, there's a

539
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: whole bunch of biases there. So we have what's called

540
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,199
Speaker 1: a bar raiser, and the bar raiser is typically what

541
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,880
Speaker 1: we think of as a role model, amazon in someone

542
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: who's really kind of embodies of leadership principles in a

543
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: really strong way, and they're certified and they have no

544
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: stake whatsoever in the outcome of that decision other than

545
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: to ensure that this person raises the bar against our

546
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: leadership principles. And in the debrief, that person has a

547
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: veto and it often gets exercised, and so we try

548
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 1: to make sure that if you accept the premise that

549
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: you know, our culture and our people are going to

550
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 1: drive in the fullness of time, our ability to be

551
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: successful for customers and therefore successful ourselves, then the point

552
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: of hiring is a massively important point in time in

553
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: the context of our long term success. So we spent

554
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: a lot of time and effort on that.

555
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's awesome. With the questions that you're asking around

556
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: the leadership principles, are they more like behavioral questions where

557
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 2: you're like, tell me about a time where you've disagreed

558
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: and committe like, is.

559
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: That we're just looking for an evidence base around how

560
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: the persons operated through their career that you know that

561
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: we think aligned strongly to the things we think are

562
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: really important.

563
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: Do you remember your recruitment process?

564
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:42,720
Speaker 1: I do. I do.

565
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,159
Speaker 2: What are some of the things that stood out to

566
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,480
Speaker 2: you or that you that were most memorable in terms

567
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: of how they worked out whether you were right for

568
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: the role?

569
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 1: I don't know, because you don't get visibility to your

570
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: own process. Yeah, no, you don't see the output. Obviously

571
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: it must have been, okay, must have been. But look,

572
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: one of the things I find and I get this

573
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: feedback consistently from people is that culture is a kind

574
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: of interesting thing because it's not as though it's good

575
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: or bad. There's no judgment. I think typically people are good,

576
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: you know, fit well in a culture, or they don't right,

577
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: and you may be an outstanding performer but not right

578
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 1: for the culture, in which case you're probably not going

579
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: to be successful or happy in an organization like this.

580
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,879
Speaker 1: It's so strongly attuned to these fourteen leadership principles. So

581
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: what I found is that even though it's a very

582
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: time intensive process, it's a really good screen both ways

583
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: because you know, often what I've had is people coming

584
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 1: into the process going, look, I've got a really clear

585
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: sense of your culture now, because you know it's so

586
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: evident through the process, and you know, I just don't

587
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: think it's the right culture for me. And that's awesome,

588
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: you know when you get that sort of an output,

589
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: because it's given people a chance to get a real

590
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 1: sense of how the culture works and whether they're going

591
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: to be happy and thrive and operate well in that environment.

592
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: So it's really useful in that sense.

593
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. Interesting. I want to come back to the six

594
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 2: page and narrative because I had heard that power points

595
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 2: are banned. Was that hard by the way to I

596
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: imagine in your pre Amazon or pre WUS life you

597
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 2: would have credited lots of PowerPoint. What was that like

598
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 2: getting that up?

599
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: In actual fact, I used to be a management consultant,

600
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 1: so I lived in PowerPoint for a long time, and

601
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: so I thought I would struggle with it. Actually, but

602
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: it became a big It took a long time. And

603
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: because it's not it's not a natural thing. A lot

604
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: of people don't spend time writing long form documents in

605
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: any company, and so actually it's a learned skill and

606
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: it just takes a bit of practice. And we you know,

607
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: so we use long form narrative for most things. So

608
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: for instance, when we when we do an interview, we'll

609
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: write our notes up as long form narrative. We don't

610
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: use bullet points. We just write them up as long

611
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: form narrative. And so you just become very practiced at it.

612
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: And so what I find is now it's just it's

613
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 1: it's so useful. I just couldn't imagine operating without them now. Actually,

614
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: because because of the level of rigor and depth you

615
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: get to and when you're writing one, what I find

616
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 1: is I probably write maybe six or seven of them

617
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: a year, long form, six pages, and when you're writing them,

618
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: it gives you exceptional clarity because you really have to.

619
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: It forces you to be quite rigorous and to think

620
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: things through deeply, So both in terms of consuming it

621
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: in terms of getting people onto the same page and

622
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: writing them, it's a really really useful mechanism. And so

623
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: I thought it'd be a lot harder than it was,

624
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: to be frank, and it wasn't at all.

625
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: Like I imagine when you say narrative, I imagine something reading like

626
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: a short story. Is that the right interpretation?

627
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, six page long form narrative, full sentences, no.

628
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: Dot points, no dot points, beginning, middle, and end, with

629
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 2: data woven in.

630
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: Black and white. You know. Yeah, wow, you can have

631
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: lots of appendencies, by the way, and so some people do.

632
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: I never do. But you see these documents that are

633
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: so well but you don't have to read them, and

634
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: that's the rule. And so again it's a forcing function.

635
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: So people have them, but you're not expected to read them.

636
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: So you need to write the document with a view

637
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: that the apendicies may not be read.

638
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: How long does it take to write one of it?

639
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: Kind of depends. It depends. So like I sit down

640
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: and write, you know, a kind of a document that

641
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: summarizes our aims at business once a year, and I

642
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: take a lot of time on that because you know,

643
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: I really go deep in every part of the business

644
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 1: and thin deeply about it. So maybe that's you know,

645
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: fifty or sixty hours of my time to write that. Equally,

646
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: I've written docs that I can do, you know, in

647
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: an afternoon in three or four hours, that aren't perhaps

648
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: as deep or kind of analytical as the broader docks.

649
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: It just kind of depends. You just get very good

650
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: at writing them. Some of them are quick to write,

651
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: Others take a lot longer that.

652
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 2: You taught how to write, because I feel like the

653
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 2: ability to write, and particularly the ability to write pros

654
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 2: is a lost skill. Does Amazon give you training?

655
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 1: We do have narrative writing courses and so it's totally optional.

656
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: So if people want coaching on it, you can get

657
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: you can get coaching. And then there's what you do

658
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: find to your point is there's a bunch of people

659
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,720
Speaker 1: who are just really good at it, and they invariably

660
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: become coaches to everyone else as well. I'm not one

661
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: of those people.

662
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: So how did you get better at it? I assume

663
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: that you've improved at it during your time here.

664
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: It's just practicing conditioning. You just get you consume a

665
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: lot of them, you know, you write a lot of them.

666
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: You just get good of it. I think moderately competent,

667
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: I would describe probably not good.

668
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I'm fascinated by that. I feel like

669
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 2: there'd be you know, people listening to this going, ah,

670
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 2: do away with powerpoints. But then I feel like with

671
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: the amount of time and rigor that's going into a

672
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: six page narrative, and I assume that they don't have

673
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: to be six pages, but that's just the limit that's right.

674
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: And I assume that they are like font sized guidelines,

675
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: so you're not just going eight point five.

676
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: Totally ten point font minimum. There's there's hard rules around

677
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: margin sizes and line spacing the whole lot. Because you know,

678
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: you can imagine every trick in the book has been

679
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: tried absolutely. You know that this notion of a forcing

680
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: function is an interesting one. That the idea that it's

681
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: a fixed six pages is really useful as well, because

682
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: you know, I know that Andy writes a six pager

683
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: on AWS each year for Jeff and I sit there

684
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: and going, you know, goalie, how would you know fit

685
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: an entire business into six pages? And you know when

686
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: I struggle to do the AMZ business and Edwin, who

687
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: runs out APEC business, does the same. And it's a

688
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: super forcing function because it does force you to synthesize

689
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 1: your messaging into a coherent six page narrative. You can't

690
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: just waffle on forever, and you've got to get to

691
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 1: the important points and you've got to you've got to

692
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: make it constructive and really focused, and so that becomes

693
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: useful as well.

694
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: I imagine that must be a beautiful time saving device

695
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: because I feel like like that much thought does not

696
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 2: go into PowerPoint decks and there's often a lot of

697
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: unnecessary totally waffle Where is this? It's all, It's all there.

698
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: And I want to pick back up on what you

699
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: said about how within the meeting is when people will

700
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: actually read the narrative. Is that right? So the of

701
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 2: time blocked out for reading.

702
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: Normally, what happens is you take you read in silence

703
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: for the first fifteen to twenty minutes of the meeting,

704
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: and everyone reads in silence, and again as a bunch

705
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: of protocols around that and what are they? We just

706
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: complete silence because people are focused on it and concentrating

707
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: on their docks, so you know, just being respectful those

708
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: is important. So it's quite funny, like it's really feels

709
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 1: very unnatural when you first join that. Everyone sits down

710
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: and you know, hi, how are you? And let's read

711
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: a dock and you sit there in silence for twenty

712
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 1: minutes and read a dock. I find it so super

713
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: useful because you do get this situation where often what happens,

714
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: particularly with PowerPoint, is you've get people that are just

715
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: wonderful communicators and can communicate really well and present really well.

716
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: Often that can cover a lot of sins. And the

717
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 1: reverse is also true. You get people that are poor

718
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: communicators who can't get a point across well, but actually

719
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: what they're saying is really important, and that's kind of

720
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 1: I think that's potentially very risky in a lot of companies.

721
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: What you want to do is get the right message

722
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: and because you've got time to construct it well and

723
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: a narrative, typically what happens, and it's not always the case.

724
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: You know, invariably, if you've get a poorly written narrative.

725
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: You know, you don't get a great caller outcome, but

726
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: when it's well written, getting everyone to the same page

727
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 1: with the same data set at the end of that

728
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: twenty minutes is really powerful. Because the other thing that

729
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: happens with PowerPoint is you'll have someone who has seen

730
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: an hour and they'll spend forty five minutes of the

731
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: hour presenting a pack and you've got a bunch of

732
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: questions for each of each of the pages, so you

733
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: can stop and ask questions, and often you don't get

734
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: to a really clean endpoint because you're debating different things

735
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: and it leads a lot to interpretation. So often find

736
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: that you just don't get as cleaner an outcome, which

737
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: means it actually takes a lot longer because you're reving

738
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: through things a lot more. That doesn't seem to happen

739
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 1: as much.

740
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do like the fact that it really takes

741
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: out a lot of the biases that you know, if

742
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: you've got the gift of the gab, you can sell

743
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 2: moost things through a PowerPoint deck and the reverse is true.

744
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: But also I like the fact that the ratios of

745
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 2: consuming information versus talking about the information is really different

746
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: here because You're not just like in passive mode listening

747
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: to a PowerPoint presentation. You're actively reading and processing something

748
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 2: that must make for a very different quality of discussions.

749
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: I think, so, yeah, invariably it does.

750
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 2: I want to ask about the PRFAQ, which, from what

751
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: I understand, is Amazon's version of a minimum viable product.

752
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: Well, probably not. I'd say it's a precursor to a

753
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: minimum as we would call a lovable product as opposed

754
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: a viable product. So invariably it goes back to our

755
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: leadership principle, right, which is that everything we do starts

756
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 1: with the customer and works backwards. And so one of

757
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: the mechanisms we use to underpin that is the PRFAQ.

758
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: So what does that look like?

759
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: So essentially what happens is that we have a process.

760
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: We call it a working backwards process clearly, and the

761
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 1: idea is that it's working backwards from the customer. There's

762
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: a set of questions. Your listeners won't be able to

763
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: see these questions, but I'm just funking security on my

764
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,360
Speaker 1: security tag, and there's five questions. If you want to

765
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: look at those and.

766
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 2: Can I read these out?

767
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: I can?

768
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: So the working backwards questions, who is the customer? What

769
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,240
Speaker 2: is the customer problem or opportunity? Is the most important

770
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: customer benefit? Clear, how do you know what customers need

771
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 2: or want? What does the customer experience look like? That's cool?

772
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 2: And this is like a little laminated card that you've

773
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 2: got attached to your Curity neckcloud.

774
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: And the reason it's called the working backwards process is

775
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: because everything we do starts with a customer and works backwards. Now,

776
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: the first step is to say, all right, well, how

777
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: do I know that this is useful for the customer?

778
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: And so our way of doing that is to write

779
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: a press release. And what we do is we write

780
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: a press release at some point in the future about

781
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 1: this particular service or product or initiative. And the reason

782
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 1: we do that is and we tend to have fictitious

783
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: quotes from potential customers and other people, and we're trying

784
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 1: to apply a test that says, how do we know

785
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: that this particular thing that we're proposing to do is

786
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: really going to have impact for our customer? Because you

787
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 1: can build a whole lot of things and then find

788
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: you've gotten to the end of a process and go, well,

789
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: you know that really just didn't add a whole lot

790
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: of values. So the pifique is our tool to do that.

791
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: And so what happens is you start drafting these press

792
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: releases and it really helps you to think about them

793
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 1: in with the customer in mind, because you're saying, it's

794
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,000
Speaker 1: total point of reference is whether this will create value,

795
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: will be useful, or be valuable. And the quotes help

796
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: you because you're actually saying, well, how will this person

797
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: consume this and what would their reaction be to this

798
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 1: particular thing. So that's the press release. Now the FAQ

799
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because what you then do is

800
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: you think up a whole series of frequently asked questions,

801
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: and typically they're grouped into sort of outward facing questions.

802
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,359
Speaker 1: You know, it might be how would we think about

803
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: pricing this? You know, all of the things you could

804
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 1: otherwise think of, and you know, internal questions like maybe

805
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: an investment type conversation, those sorts of things. And what

806
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,479
Speaker 1: we try to do is apply a test that says, look,

807
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: how do we think We try to come up with

808
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: the hardest possible question. So again we're trying to use

809
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 1: a forcing function that says, look, let's have considered as

810
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: much about this problem as we possibly can through these FAQs,

811
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: and again it's just a forcing function to do that

812
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,480
Speaker 1: planning and assuming. And what tends to happen is these

813
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: power of FAQs tend to iterate a lot and if

814
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: you get to a good answer, then you go into

815
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: your sort of MLP type phase where you're starting to

816
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: build a prototype and getting this thing built. But everything

817
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: starts there. There's nothing significant that we do that doesn't

818
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: have a paer FAQ. And often what happens is you'll

819
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: get to a certain point in the life cycle of

820
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: this thing. Because I'm using the word thing because it

821
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: could be a product or a service, it could also

822
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: be a project, it could be a whole after things,

823
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: and your reference back to the PERCQ going well, you

824
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: know what do we envisage this would look like? And

825
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: you know how do we track back against that? So

826
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: it's quite a useful mechanism.

827
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. What percentage of ideas get past the PRFIQ stage?

828
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 1: I would say a lot. And the reason I would

829
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 1: say a lot is because we don't have a defined

830
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 1: process for ideation and investment. There's no investment committee, there's

831
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 1: no clear path. And that's pretty intentional because you know,

832
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 1: you don't know where an idea is going to come from,

833
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: and so you don't necessarily want to preordain you know,

834
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: how to get an idea. So we have this management

835
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: I guess philosophy, this idea of the organizational Yes, have

836
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: you heard about that context?

837
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 2: I don't think I have nice.

838
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,799
Speaker 1: So what we think, particularly for people leaders, as we

839
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: try to think of our role as to find a

840
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: way to yes. So rather than you go into a

841
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: lot of meetings and people think it's their job to

842
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: say no, really, my job is if someone's brought me

843
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: a proposal, is to try to work out how to

844
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: get it to yes. And so in many cases, what

845
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: happens with a per FAQ is it iterates, which is, look, oh,

846
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you should think about A, or you

847
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:26,080
Speaker 1: think about B, and look, why don't you go to

848
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: have a conversation with person over there? And you know,

849
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure this is quite ready, but like I think,

850
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: if you think about A, B and C, you know

851
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 1: we can get it there. So often what happens is

852
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 1: the per of FAQ becomes a tool to help with

853
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: the process of iteration. So the reason I say most

854
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: is because if you've got a fundamentally good idea that

855
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: holds water in the context of creating value for customer.

856
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,399
Speaker 1: Then most of what we're trying to do is work

857
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: out how to get it executed. Now, in some cases

858
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 1: that could be really quick and really easily easy, and

859
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: the process enables that. In other cases, though, it'll take

860
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: a lot of iteration to get to a point where

861
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: we go, Okay, good, let's move, you know, And so

862
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: most of the time you're really working towards yes as

863
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: opposed to a killing idea and saying no.

864
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,839
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, working towards yeah, getting to a yes.

865
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 2: That's so different to how most people operate because no

866
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 2: makes you sound smart generally because you you know, it's funny.

867
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: It's easy to say no. It's a lot harder to

868
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: say yes.

869
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Absolutely, I love that. My final question for you,

870
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: Paul is how can people find out more about you

871
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 2: and Amazon Web Services and by what you're doing? Like,

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00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 2: where where can people go to find out more?

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00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: Thank you? Well, look, I really appreciate this opportunity because

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00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: you know, fundamentally, the thing that enables us to be

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00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: successful for customers in the fullness of time is being

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00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: able to attract great quality of people who have awesome

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00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: careers here, so you know, it's fun to be able

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00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: to talk about our culture and hopefully you know, people

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00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: see it as being interesting and you know context around

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00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: where they can do great work. And you know, we've

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00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: got lots of lots and lots of roles open in

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00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: Australia and New Zealand today, so always looking for great people.

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00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: You can go on to our website. You know, I'd

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00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: love it if you're based in Sydney or Auckland. We

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00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: have made your customer events each year. Our summer he's

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00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: in April, about thirty thousand people are expected at the

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00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: International Convention Center in Sydney, and we'll have a similar

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00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: one in Auckland i think in the June July time frame,

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00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 1: and we have a whole lot of events. You know,

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00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: if you're a developer, we have big developer days through

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00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: the year, so i'd encourage you to come to any

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00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: one of our events as well. And you know we

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00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: often have meetups and our partners have meetups, so there's

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00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: many different ways you can you can come and meet

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00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 1: our team and get us sense of the work that

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00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: we're doing and hopefully the work that you might do.

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00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: If you chose to come and work with us.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome. And we'll link to the career's page in

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00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: the show notes and also just the events page as well,

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00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: so I people want to find out more, we'll put

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00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: those in the show notes. Paul, it has been an

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00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: absolute delight and just fascinating hearing how Amazon works. So

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Thank you really appreciate it.

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00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 2: Hey, there, that is for today's show. If you like

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00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: this episode, why not share it with someone else that

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00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: you think could benefit from it. I just thought there

908
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: were so many great tips that Paul shared that so

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00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: many organizations and leaders could benefit from knowing and maybe

910
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 2: trialing out at their organization. So that is it for

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Speaker 2: today's show and I will see you next time.