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Speaker 1: Three sixty with Katie Wolf thanks to Joyce Main, Dowin

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Speaker 1: Homes and Stuart Highway Beerromer.

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Speaker 2: What a morning we've had so far, and it's just

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Speaker 2: about to get better because it is Tuesday morning, not

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Speaker 2: Wednesday like I've say from last month. And joining us

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Speaker 2: in the studio for the Big Issues brought to you

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Speaker 2: by Kolado Community Association, an Aboriginal loaned operated and community

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Speaker 2: lead organization from the top End to Tenant Creek. Damian

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Speaker 2: Hale and Dave Tolner.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, morning Wolf.

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Speaker 3: Great to be with you, Katie.

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Speaker 2: And can I just say that Dave Tolner has walked

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Speaker 2: in with a red shirt on that says Damien Hale work.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that's a good thing, Katie.

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Speaker 4: Look are you.

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Speaker 1: A statement? When I get out of here.

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Speaker 3: I want to put it out there now.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: I don't care.

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Speaker 5: I seriously don't care what everyone says about the Blake.

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Speaker 5: I think he's a good mate and I'll promote you.

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Speaker 1: And it's an election council.

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Speaker 3: It's an election year for counsel.

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Speaker 5: You know, all those knockers out there bear and I'm

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Speaker 5: wearing a Dame In Haile shirt.

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Speaker 2: I just go out and behave badly because people could

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Speaker 2: just be confused.

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Speaker 3: And that's exactly right. It sort of gives good cover, doesn't.

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Speaker 1: He looks good in red and we always knew that

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Speaker 1: he was one of ours, and he infiltrated, he was

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Speaker 1: super salesman, and he infiltrated the Liberal Party. And didn't

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Speaker 1: he do a good job for us?

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Speaker 2: Oh, dear man, it's always good fun when we're in

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Speaker 2: here covering the big issues. I do want to talk about, Well,

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Speaker 2: this report on a current affair overnight unfortunately showed Alice

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Speaker 2: Springs in all.

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Speaker 4: Of its well, non glory. It was horrific.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's horrendous scenes out of Alice moment and

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Speaker 2: to see it all in one sort of one news

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Speaker 2: report like that, I think really hit the nail on

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Speaker 2: the head of exactly what those residents of Alice Springs

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Speaker 2: have been trying to portray for quite some time now.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you both watched it, but I

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Speaker 2: think you can probably get the gist of how it

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Speaker 2: went down if you didn't see it.

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Speaker 1: There was some poor behavior in amongst that lot. And

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Speaker 1: you know, as a territory, and you know, we've been

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Speaker 1: here since nineteen seventy four my family, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I was just shocked at the level of violence and

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Speaker 1: the age of the combatants and kids out on the

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Speaker 1: streets at that hour, and the lack of respect for

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Speaker 1: law and order was quite evident that you know, the

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Speaker 1: police were under attack as well with different parts of

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Speaker 1: the parts of the report, the use of weapons, the

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Speaker 1: guy with the shovel, like he could have easily just

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Speaker 1: killed someone in that instance. And also you know shop

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Speaker 1: owners that the town looks as though it's boarded up,

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Speaker 1: as if there's a hurricane coming into the East coast

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Speaker 1: of America, where you see the pictures of all the

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Speaker 1: glass and people not replacing glass in their businesses. I

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Speaker 1: was very confronting. I found it very confronted.

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Speaker 5: Why people sort of find it confronting to me, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's it's a natural outcome of what you get from

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Speaker 5: a labor government. You know, the fact is they are

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Speaker 5: soft on crime. It's it's in their DNA. Every opportunity

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Speaker 5: they have, they're trying to find ways to release prisoners

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Speaker 5: into the community. The last coronavirus sing in Victoria talking

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Speaker 5: about trying to release all the prisoners, Michael Gunner was

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Speaker 5: very quick to release the kids from don Dale following

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Speaker 5: the recommendations from that.

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Speaker 3: Inquiry.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 5: It's in there Royal Commission whatever. But I mean, it

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Speaker 5: was a funny one failed you know, it was a

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Speaker 5: failed outcome. It really was. It was a hatchet job

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Speaker 5: by the ABC at the start. No one was really

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Speaker 5: interested in the facts and the number one recommendation was

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Speaker 5: released these kids out in the community, and you sit

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Speaker 5: there and you go, well, what about the community. Does

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Speaker 5: anyone care that these people are being released back to

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Speaker 5: where they came from not having completed a sentence. These

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Speaker 5: are some of the worst criminals we had, but you know,

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Speaker 5: everybody seem to think, oh, it's okay, just let them out.

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Speaker 2: Like the biggest thing I've got to say for me

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Speaker 2: after watching it last night, because we've been talking about

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Speaker 2: this for months, like honestly, it's probably been over a year.

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Speaker 2: We've been catching up with people in Alice Springs and

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Speaker 2: hearing their concerns. There's been some real tragedy as well

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Speaker 2: out of Alice Springs, you know, as we've spoken about previously.

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Speaker 2: But the biggest thing for me from this point was

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Speaker 2: how do we actually start making some changes or start doing.

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Speaker 4: Something to fix it, and I know the Chief Minister

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Speaker 4: was on the.

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Speaker 2: Show yesterday and he said that we've got twenty nine

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Speaker 2: police officers, I believe new recruits who are going to

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Speaker 2: be going straight down to Alice to be stationed there.

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Speaker 2: There's going to be eleven Aboriginal Police community officers who'll

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Speaker 2: be there, and in other communities surrounding there's also going

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Speaker 2: to be eleven auxiliaries. So we're talking about sort of

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Speaker 2: fifty additional resources going.

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Speaker 3: To as Codie.

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Speaker 4: We all know that's right.

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Speaker 3: We all know who the criminals are.

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Speaker 5: There's the same people time and time and time again,

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Speaker 5: and the system under Labor just let them. Let them go,

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Speaker 5: you know, they walk out of court snubbing their nase

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Speaker 5: at law and authority, you know, at the end of

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Speaker 5: the day, and then you sit there and you say

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Speaker 5: what you're antwer more police. We'll come out of luck

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Speaker 5: and some people up who actually commit some crimes.

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Speaker 1: Well, the courts actually don't come under the Labor Party

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Speaker 1: for starters.

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Speaker 3: And the Labor Party sets the rules.

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Speaker 1: To the court. Dave would like to play a blame

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Speaker 1: game on Labor on this, but there's also blame across

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Speaker 1: all levels of government and all parties. If you look

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Speaker 1: at who the federal government's been for over a decade,

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Speaker 1: we've had the intervention, We've had areas of concern constantly

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Speaker 1: raised by elders of Aboriginal communities around the intervention and

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Speaker 1: the loss of their own direct action and the loss

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Speaker 1: of their own self determining what happens in their communities.

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Speaker 1: And we're seeing family breakdown. And they actually looked at

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Speaker 1: they interviewed one of the elders there last night, I know,

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Speaker 1: the guy, Michael Little. I think it was we've had

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Speaker 1: a Michael, a very respected person in Alice Springs, a

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Speaker 1: long term you know, a long term resident of Alice

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Speaker 1: Springs and born there. And he made the point around

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Speaker 1: parental responsibility, around the fact that the family breakdown is occurring,

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Speaker 1: and substance abuse and a life of other things. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's too simplistic just to go and blame

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Speaker 1: one political simplistic.

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Speaker 3: It's simplicity.

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Speaker 2: I think we're actually though, what we've done is we've

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Speaker 2: reached a point now where I think that everybody sort

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Speaker 2: of has to, you know, to agree that's what's happening

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Speaker 2: at the moment. No matter how we got there, we're broken,

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Speaker 2: right now you know the way that it is now,

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Speaker 2: no matter how we got there and what steps have

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Speaker 2: been taken till this point, there's got to be a

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Speaker 2: rethink on the way that we're doing things. I actually

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Speaker 2: don't have the answers. I'm you know, like it's above

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Speaker 2: my pay bracket. But what I can see is that

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Speaker 2: you've got a community that's entirely broken, like it was

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Speaker 2: bloody sad to watch.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: You look at Alice Springs and I think that is

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Speaker 2: a town that I absolutely love.

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Speaker 4: You know, I lived there for a number of years.

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Speaker 4: I loved living.

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Speaker 2: There, and there's always been issues, but not to that degree.

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Speaker 2: You know, even last night there was two blokes that

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Speaker 2: were apparently set upon by between ten and fifteen youths,

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Speaker 2: had rocks thrown.

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Speaker 4: At them, six thrown at them.

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Speaker 2: It's something that's happening on the daily for the people

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Speaker 2: of Alice, and I just don't know how we change

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Speaker 2: our mindsets to actually stop sort of thinking that the

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Speaker 2: way we're approaching this.

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Speaker 4: At the moment is okay. And like I say, I

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Speaker 4: don't have the answers, but we've got to change the way.

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Speaker 5: Part of the answer is about punishing criminals. You know

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Speaker 5: it's not going soft on criminals. You know, we work

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Speaker 5: out and we find excuse, are for excuse, are for

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Speaker 5: excuse about why the poor little blider do these things?

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Speaker 5: You know, reasons not to put them in jail, reason

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Speaker 5: not to punish them. And they're like, the reality is,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's only a handful of people that are

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Speaker 5: causing all this mayhem. We actually have to nip it

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Speaker 5: in the bud. There's got to be parental responsibility. I

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Speaker 5: agree with you, but nobody wants to make the parents responsible. Oh,

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Speaker 5: because you know they're marginalized already. Well, you think somewhere

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Speaker 5: along the line, we've just got to sit up and say, listen,

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Speaker 5: this is out of control. It's time for some tough love.

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Speaker 5: We've got to start putting people in jail. You know

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Speaker 5: that when I say this is emblematic and it's in

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Speaker 5: their DNA. Look at the previous labor government. You know

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Speaker 5: they spent one point eight billion dollars building a luxury

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Speaker 5: prison for prisoners, and they spend one hundred million dollars

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Speaker 5: on a hospital. Now you say, where's your priorities? You know,

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Speaker 5: these people should have been stuck in the desert digging holes.

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Speaker 5: One day, filling them in the next, Painting rocks white

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Speaker 5: one day, painting them yellow the next. You know, how

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Speaker 5: about a little bit of tough love for these people?

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Speaker 1: The capacity in people, Dave, what do put somebody out

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Speaker 1: in the desert and say dig a hole and fill

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Speaker 1: it in? What we want to have done? Jails block.

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Speaker 1: If you build a jail and you don't address the

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Speaker 1: social issues.

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Speaker 3: And the social enormous amount of debt, you will fill

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Speaker 3: the jail.

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Speaker 5: We've got enormous amount of off the case where you

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Speaker 5: can just put people and get them to work.

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Speaker 2: Honestly, I reckon, we've got to meet somewhere in the middle. Hey,

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Speaker 2: like we've we've got to actually get to the point

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Speaker 2: at the moment where you know, we know that we've

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Speaker 2: got some young people who are hardened criminals who are

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Speaker 2: doing the wrong thing. If you've got people who are

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Speaker 2: breaking into homes on numerous occasions, or you know, involved

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Speaker 2: and engaged in bad, bad behavior on numerous occasions, you've

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Speaker 2: got to go, Okay, we actually need to keep those

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Speaker 2: people off the streets.

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Speaker 5: We make good, but I should recommend that they will

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Speaker 5: be released from jail. These are some of the worst

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Speaker 5: criminals we've seen in society, and the recommendation from the

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Speaker 5: Royal Commission was to put them back into the community.

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Speaker 3: Well, I do think, sorry, if you.

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Speaker 2: Just think we've got to chuck everybody in jail, there's

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Speaker 2: no doubt that we don't need you know, we don't

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Speaker 2: need to do that, but we we do need to

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Speaker 2: intervene with some of these kids who are seven eight

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Speaker 2: years old.

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Speaker 4: On Yeah, but this is where I'm like, this is

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Speaker 4: where we're at at the moment, right.

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Speaker 2: So we've got, you know, we've got this approach where

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Speaker 2: we're saying, Okay, we've got to do it. We've got

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Speaker 2: to intervene when they're babies and we've got to make

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Speaker 2: sure that we're helping families. So we've got that on

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Speaker 2: one side. On the other side, we'll go and chuck

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Speaker 2: them all in jail. I you know, for me, I

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Speaker 2: think that there's you know that we've like I said,

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Speaker 2: we've got to meet somewhere in the middle where those

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Speaker 2: that are really doing the wrong thing do need to

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Speaker 2: be punished. And then if you've got six year old,

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Speaker 2: seven year olds who are on track to become hardened criminals,

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Speaker 2: we've got to try and stop them from.

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Speaker 4: Going on that path. However, what we're doing at the

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Speaker 4: moment is not working.

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Speaker 1: Well, you don't put if you jails are not a

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Speaker 1: Swiss finishing school, all right. They don't going to jail

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Speaker 1: and mix with other like minded people and come out

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Speaker 1: as choir boys. So the model is not working with

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Speaker 1: the model of locking people up. Let me finish, Dave,

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Speaker 1: the model of locking people up on four or five

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Speaker 1: or six times, they go in as a rock thrower,

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Speaker 1: they come out as a break and enter, they go

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Speaker 1: back in as a serious assault, and then and it

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Speaker 1: continues to escalate. You need to have a well, that's

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Speaker 1: what you're advocating, Dave, to advocating up children, I'm not

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Speaker 1: advocating with advocating locking up children. Will be interesting to

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Speaker 1: see what the Commissioner comes back with tonight in regards

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Speaker 1: to the response his response to this, But I know

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Speaker 1: that it wasn't all about don Dale and all about

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Speaker 1: locking up kids. There was a whole raft of different

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Speaker 1: recommendations around family support, early intervention, all that sort of stuff,

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Speaker 1: education for kids, better outcomes at school. If these kids

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Speaker 1: are not going to school all right, obviously there's something

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Speaker 1: wrong at home or there's something wrong at what the

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Speaker 1: schools are selling because they ain't buying into it, and

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Speaker 1: that's where we need.

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Speaker 3: To get people interrupt.

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Speaker 5: Like you know, we had a program up here called

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Speaker 5: Sentence to a Job, right where people would go into

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Speaker 5: jail and those ones that were sort of about to

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Speaker 5: come out, we'd place them in a job in the community,

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Speaker 5: somewhere in a private enterprise, and they would work there

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Speaker 5: until their sentence finished. And more often than not, those

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Speaker 5: people that came out of prison were offered employment where

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Speaker 5: they were working, right, And that was a wonderful program.

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Speaker 5: The ABC sort of used that to say, Oh, come on,

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Speaker 5: mister l Frink, can we come up there and do

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Speaker 5: a program on Sentence to a Job? As, of course

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Speaker 5: we now know they had no intention of doing a

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Speaker 5: program on sentence to a Job. They had no intention

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Speaker 5: of saying how wonderful the program was working, how it

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Speaker 5: was getting people into meaningful lives after being in prison.

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Speaker 5: What they did was a beat up on the children

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Speaker 5: in don Dale, and the result of that was that

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Speaker 5: we left a whole lot of them out. There was

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Speaker 5: no focus at all on Sentence to a Job, no

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Speaker 5: focus at all on how we're getting people rehabilitated into

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Speaker 5: the community. Whatso of it Now that program has been seized.

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Speaker 5: Isaiah was an expensive failure and all of a sudden

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Speaker 5: now we see the results in our community of what's

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Speaker 5: happening with all of these soft love type approaches to criminals,

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Speaker 5: and Codie is right, we don't have to go to

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Speaker 5: the ultimate extreme of Sheriff Joe in Arizona, where you

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Speaker 5: address them all up in pink overalls and chalm g

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Speaker 5: rated movies and put them in tents in the desert.

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Speaker 5: I mean, some of us would like to see us

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Speaker 5: go there on that part. Well, some of us would

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Speaker 5: like to, but there's got to be a middle ground.

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Speaker 5: There's got to be the most some sort of responsibility on.

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Speaker 1: The most approach. In the red Damien Hale shirt I've

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Speaker 1: ever heard three sixty with Katie Wolf on Mixed one

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Speaker 1: oh four point nine Thanks to Joyce Main Darwin.

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Speaker 2: You are listening to Mix oneow four point nine, three sixty.

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Speaker 2: It is the Big Issues, proudly brought to you by

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Speaker 2: Kolado Community Association, an Aboriginal owned, operated and community lead

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Speaker 2: organization from the top End to Tenant Creek and joining

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Speaker 2: me in the studio, Dave Tolna and Damian Hale, although

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Speaker 2: Dave's wearing Damien shirt, so you don't know who.

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Speaker 4: So you were here this morning.

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Speaker 5: Well, as I said, somebody's got to support the guy.

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Speaker 5: It is an election. Are crime would sort of preclude

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Speaker 5: anyone from labor supporting him now, so.

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Speaker 3: He's actually recognized there is a problem, all right.

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Speaker 2: I don't know where to go next because we know

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Speaker 2: that at the moment there seems to be or there's

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Speaker 2: a bit of arjibarji about whether there's a delay to

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Speaker 2: the astrosenica vaccine arriving in the Northern Territory. The Health

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Speaker 2: Minister confirmed with us this morning there's no delay, but

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Speaker 2: there's plenty of people actually questioning whether we should roll

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Speaker 2: out this astrosenica vaccine in the Northern Territory after well

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Speaker 2: the European Union's four largest nations suspended the use of

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Speaker 2: astrosenica after reports in some of those European countries of

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Speaker 2: serious side effects in recipients.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know, do you like? The Health

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Speaker 4: Minister said to us this morning, she'd be happy enough.

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Speaker 3: To have it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there's been some of my twenty five

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Speaker 1: million doses in Europe and there's a handful, very low

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Speaker 1: percentage of people have experienced clotting. And where the tests

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Speaker 1: came back that sort of sent a few alarm bells

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Speaker 1: was because you know, the platelets in your blood are

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Speaker 1: the things that stop you from bleeding out. So if

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Speaker 1: you cut yourself, platelets go to the area can jeal

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Speaker 1: and stop you from bleeding out. So people were presenting

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Speaker 1: with clots but still at very low levels of platelets.

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Speaker 1: So that's where the sort of the suspicion came a

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Speaker 1: hold on a second, what's going on here? Why have

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Speaker 1: they got low platelet counts and they're getting clotting. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't sort of add up. So from what I've listened

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Speaker 1: to today early in the morning, when I was listening

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Speaker 1: to certain people talk about it. In Northern European countries,

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Speaker 1: for instance, they've got very good electronic records health records,

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Speaker 1: so they're checking now against their records of normal type

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Speaker 1: trends around people getting blood plots compared to people that

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Speaker 1: have come at the violence vaccine. So they also had

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Speaker 1: the other thing they looked at was the actual batches

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Speaker 1: of vaccine, that is, there is there a relationship between

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Speaker 1: the batch that went out and the people that are

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Speaker 1: suffering from plining. But let's be honest, it's a very

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Speaker 1: very low percentage. And like everything since the pandemic started,

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Speaker 1: most of us, probably Dave excluded, have listened to what

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Speaker 1: the health experts have saying. And doctor Swan, Norman Swan,

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Speaker 1: I've thoroughly enjoyed. He's not been wrong once and he

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Speaker 1: has spoken about social distancing. He spoke about washing your hands,

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Speaker 1: he spoke about all the ways that you can push back.

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Speaker 1: He didn't support Sweden's approach like others. He didn't support

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Speaker 1: Sweden unlike others in this room, and Sweden who went

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Speaker 1: with herd immunization didn't work very well. But anyway, but

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Speaker 1: Norman Swan this morning was very clear and concise. Australians

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Speaker 1: do not need to panic. We will have We've got

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Speaker 1: the very best medical experts in Australia and I don't

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Speaker 1: think we need politicians going out and trying to rampale

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Speaker 1: it any sort of Folks.

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Speaker 5: I'm just curious you've done a bit of research on this.

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Speaker 5: I'm curious whether the Northern Europeans might have a problem

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Speaker 5: with the blood clotting, given the fact that their blood's

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Speaker 5: a lot thicker. You know, no, no, no, well, you know,

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Speaker 5: stuff up. No, no Damian would know this. You know,

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Speaker 5: coming from a tropical climate, we've got very thin blood.

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Speaker 5: You know, somebody cuts themselves a little scratched, they just bleed.

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Speaker 4: I actually don't know that's true.

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Speaker 3: It is true, and.

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Speaker 5: It's why when you it's why when you go south

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Speaker 5: to a cold to a cold climate, you feel a

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Speaker 5: lot more, you feel a lot colder than the locals,

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Speaker 5: because your blood is a lot thinner.

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Speaker 4: You reckon, stop to googles, disagree.

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Speaker 3: Who the hell's doctor gurgle? He must be a.

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Speaker 1: Muff he doesn't listen to doctor Swan.

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Speaker 5: I'm just curious as to whether they might be plotting

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Speaker 5: problems in Northern Europe because they have thicker blood, which

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Speaker 5: they do because it's cold to climate.

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Speaker 3: You know, in the tropics, we have seen a blood

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Speaker 3: platelet counts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I actually wonder whether it is also something to

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Speaker 2: do with, you know, high blood pressure and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Whether it's whether people do conditions.

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Speaker 1: The point I was making about Northern European countries, and

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Speaker 1: I leave Sweden out of it because I'm not an

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Speaker 1: expert on Sweden.

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Speaker 3: Where it is like, I'm.

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Speaker 1: Just saying that the point I was making is that

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Speaker 1: the health records are very comprehensive. So they're looking at

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Speaker 1: the trends of people that have had the vaccine, whether

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Speaker 1: or not they've got a history of clotting anyway, or

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's something that's come because of the vaccine.

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Speaker 1: So I just don't think. I saw Matt Caravan out

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Speaker 1: this caravan this morning, non Caravan, I'll call him Matt Caravan.

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Speaker 1: And so I've seen him out this morning very early,

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Speaker 1: getting his getting the little fifteen minutes of fame. Let's

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Speaker 1: pull it all up, let's you know, typical.

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Speaker 4: He's a fifteen minutes cracking me.

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Speaker 1: But that's that's what Caravan does. He's always the first one.

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Speaker 3: And I think about labor people.

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Speaker 5: They don't tolerate much logic, do they logic?

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Speaker 3: Logic? Time much logic and logic.

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Speaker 4: We've run out of time this morning. It's been wonderful

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Speaker 4: to have you both in the studio.

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Speaker 3: I've home you could talk about the AFL issue, really.

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Speaker 1: To talk about it, because that's something.

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Speaker 3: That Haley's got a bit of knowledge on.

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Speaker 1: What about what about the took for us?

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Speaker 3: Do we run out of time?

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Speaker 4: It's always wonderful to catch up with both of you.

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Speaker 2: I did think it was incredibly important that we spoke

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Speaker 2: about the current affair from last night. I appreciate both

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Speaker 2: of you coming studio today. We'll catch you again next year.

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Speaker 5: Don one more thing, Just just a big shout out

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Speaker 5: there for anyone you know. He's gone off highly over

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Speaker 5: the years. Just remember I'm here in a red shirt

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Speaker 5: supporting the day.

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Speaker 3: I'm here for him.

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Speaker 1: It's just cost Ronnie.

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Speaker 2: My producer, has just confirmed that blood blood is thinner

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Speaker 2: in high altitude, not warm climates.

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Speaker 3: Apparently so getting so.

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Speaker 1: He's up on his soap box up and his ivory

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Speaker 1: up in his ivory.

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Speaker 5: But anyone who doesn't know Ronnie is the faceless person

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Speaker 5: and never says anything.

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Speaker 1: From the One thing good about whether it's stick or

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Speaker 1: thin blood. One thing about Tom is he's got thick skin.

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Speaker 1: We love that he looks good. He looks good in

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Speaker 1: the dam in hail shirt.

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Speaker 4: You just have to turn your microphones down. Ami and

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Speaker 4: Alan Dave Tolna.

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Speaker 2: Lovely to have you both in the studio this morning.

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Speaker 2: The Big Issues, of course, brought to you by Kolano

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Speaker 2: Community Association