1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of our deep dive into 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: the future of work with fellow organizational psychologist Charlotte Rush. 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: In part one of this series, which we released last week, 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: we explored the shifting expectations of employees and the strategies 5 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: that leaders can use to uncover what really matters to 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: their teams. So if you missed that episode, you might 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: want to listen to that one first. Today, we are 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: delving further into some of the biggest trends and insights 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: that our future of work research at Inventium revealed, like 10 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: what does it really mean to embrace hybrid by design 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: as opposed to hybrid by default? And how can you 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: combat the dreaded connection decay in remote teams? And what 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: roles do managers play in supporting their team members emotional 14 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: well being? As the lines between work and life become 15 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: increasingly blurred, setting boundary has never been more important or 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: more challenging. So Shara and I will be sharing the 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: tools and mindsets you need to lead a thriving team 18 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: in the age of hybrid work. My name is doctor 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: Amantha Imbert. I'm an organizational psychologist and founder of Behavior 20 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: change consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work a 21 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: show about how to help you get so much more 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: out of the hours in your day. So another big 23 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: trend that came out of the research was this very 24 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 1: big difference between hybrid by default versus hybrid by design. Shark, 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: can you share a little bit about what we found. 26 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 2: So what a lot of organizations have done has fallen 27 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: into hybrid work as a result of the pandemic and 28 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 2: has really myopically looked at hybrid work as just about 29 00:01:57,360 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, where we work in terms of are we 30 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: in the officers or our people at home or elsewhere. 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 2: But what I really found from the research we need 32 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: to be looking at hybrid beyond just how we work 33 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 2: to actually being something that we design proactively into our 34 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 2: entire kind of culture and organization. So it's also about 35 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: how we make decisions as an organization, how we build 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,640 Speaker 2: our culture, how we support our leaders, and all of 37 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: that's really important to ensure that we actually get a 38 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 2: positive return on investment with hybrid because we know that 39 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: it's what most employees want. There is doubt whether organizations 40 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: and leaders are seeing or perceiving that there's a positive 41 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: ROI for their organization. Hybrid by design is really thinking 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: about how do we sit down and make a lot 43 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: of intentional decisions around what hybrid looks like for us. 44 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: And it's not just about the days they're in the office. 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: What are a couple of things that organizations can do 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: to move more to this hybrid by design where you're 47 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: making really deliberate, intentional choices about how to get the 48 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: best out of your people. 49 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: Well, first of all, something that everyone has to deal 50 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 2: with is meetings, and so whether you are an employee, 51 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 2: a team leader, an executive, everyone goes to meetings and 52 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: it can be really important to think about how do 53 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: we change our meetings based on hybrid work. So Nick Bloom, 54 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 2: who is one of the most prolific researchers in the 55 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: world of hybrid, he really advocates that you think about 56 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: meetings in terms of small versus large meetings. So small 57 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: meetings with you know, two, three, four people, they can 58 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 2: be done quite effectively virtually because you can see everyone's 59 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: face on the screen, you can see their body language, 60 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 2: their gestures, and you don't have to kind of constantly 61 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 2: mute on and off, and so you can really seamlessly 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 2: have a meeting with a small group that is done hybrid. 63 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: But then if you've got like a large group, so 64 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 2: you know, eight nine, ten people that are needing to 65 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 2: have a really important discussion about something, he would actually 66 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: advocate that that would be done in person potentially. And 67 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: I remember him saying, if you think about going and 68 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: watching the rugby versus watching the rugby at home, and 69 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: think about the technology that we have now to watch 70 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 2: the rugby at home, all of the cameras and the 71 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: microphones and the commentators everywhere, it's almost as good as 72 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: if you're there. Some might say it's even better because 73 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: you can hear all the commentators, you can seal the 74 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: different angles. It is such a seamless experience. And that's 75 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: because they've really actually thought about how do we ensure 76 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 2: that the people at home are having a great experience 77 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 2: as if they were in the stadium. And I just 78 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 2: wonder have people really thought about that in terms of 79 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: how do we make sure that our employees are having 80 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: a great experience regardless of whether they're at home or 81 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: in the office. 82 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: Now, an interesting stat that I read in the Future 83 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: of Work report project that you led was that fifty 84 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: five percent of people say they feel lonely at work, 85 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: even on day is they attend lots of meetings. We 86 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 1: surprised about that statistic. 87 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 2: I was surprised, actually, But then when I think about it, 88 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that makes sense, right, because so many 89 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: meetings are task based. Meetings are you know, in true form, 90 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: designed to help you, if you're doing them right, progress 91 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 2: your projects right, get further financewers so that you can 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 2: progress to the next milestone, and so they're often very 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: tasked focused. But so many people rely on meetings as 94 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: this default for connection, and so it seems obvious to 95 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,280 Speaker 2: me now that I'm like if people are spending a 96 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: lot of days in meetings, Like if I even reflect 97 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: on the days when I have lots of meetings, I am, 98 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: you know, talking through a lot of projects, and often 99 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: I end meetings with more things to do, and then 100 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: I get to the end of the day, I'm like, 101 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 2: I'm feeling even more overwhelmed with all of these extra 102 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 2: tasks and things that I've got to do. Most of 103 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 2: the meetings that I spend time in, and we don't 104 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 2: have heaps of meetings in a ment him, we're not 105 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: really dedicating to connection. And I think that's the crucial 106 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 2: point here, right, is most meetings are not intended to 107 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: foster connection, and so therefore this statistic from Atlastian does 108 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: make sense. 109 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: So one of the things we need to be thinking 110 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: about if we're moving from hybrid by default to hybrid 111 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: by design, is what can we do to deliberately facilitate connections. 112 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: Because it's interesting that most companies, if you take away 113 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: real estate assets and all that sort of stuff that 114 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: is driving people back into the office. In terms of 115 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: culture building, you'd say, well, we want people back in 116 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: the office because that's where people will build connections and 117 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:42,920 Speaker 1: they'll feel connected to their team and the organization and 118 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: so forth. But as you've just suggested, and as the 119 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: research also points out, that's not enough. So I'm curious, 120 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,479 Speaker 1: what do you do, Shah, Given you work like I 121 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: do in a remote first environment where we have no officers, 122 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: what do you personally do to feel connected to the team? 123 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 2: I think, first of all is recognizing that connection for 124 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 2: me is not just connection to the team. If I'm 125 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: feeling connected as a person in terms of that wheel 126 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: of life, if I've got multiple high quality connections in 127 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 2: my life. I am part of the soccer community, i 128 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 2: am part of the local dog park, community. Am I 129 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: connected in multiple facets of life? I have other roles 130 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: that I play and other sources of connection, and then 131 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: asking people in the team about that as well, and 132 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: just really making sure that people in the team have 133 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 2: multiple avenues for connection, right, because it's like a diversified strategy, right, 134 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 2: because if one of those avenues falls down, you've got 135 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: something else to pick you up. That's one thing I think. 136 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: The other thing is just I just don't think about 137 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: the office, because I can't rely on an office. I 138 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 2: just don't even think about it. But if I think 139 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 2: about what makes me feel really connected, like I just 140 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: reflect on when have I felt connected? At Inmentium, we've 141 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: got this exciting goal and we're working together as a 142 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: cohesive team. So even this future of work project, it's 143 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: touched I think every person in the team at Inventium, 144 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: and that has been a great source of connection for me, 145 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: is having a project where the team is collaborating on 146 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: that and I care about it. 147 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: So at Inventium, we have tried a number of different 148 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: initiatives to foster connection because we're just so mindful that 149 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 1: we need to be really deliberate about it because we 150 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: are remote first. One of the things that we have 151 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: done in the past is called BPG or Big Personal Goal, 152 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: and we are about to bring that back. Actually on 153 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: the first of July, I believe you are leading the charge, Shah, 154 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: talk to us about BPG. 155 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: BPG stands for Big Personal Goal and this was an 156 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 2: idea that was sourced from the team a few years 157 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: ago when we were trying to think about fostering more 158 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: connection and camaraderie across the team. And essentially it's where 159 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 2: everyone in the team you opt in and you can 160 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: set a six month personal goal and we said if 161 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 2: you achieve your goal, you'll get a little bonus from 162 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: Inventium as well. And what we did is throughout the 163 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 2: six months, we had monthly meetings where we would connect 164 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 2: and say how are you going with your goal and 165 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 2: what's happening and what are you doing to stay committed 166 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: to your goal? And that was really a nice source 167 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 2: of connection throughout the six months. It really helped people 168 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 2: to know what's important to these other people in my 169 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 2: team and so really specifically, if you're having a meeting 170 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 2: with someone, you can ask them in terms of how 171 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: you going with your BPG, like what's going on, what 172 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 2: challenges you faencing, like how are you going with that 173 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: latest book, for example. So it really provided something specific 174 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 2: that you could know about people personally, but it also 175 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 2: created that kind of team environment where people were like 176 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: supporting each other and encouraging each other to achieve something 177 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: that mattered to them. 178 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: I loved it as an initiative, and I still think 179 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: about it now. We've tried a few other things over 180 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 1: the years. Something that I thought was a lot of 181 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: fun that I think was led by one of our teammates, Zoe. 182 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: I want to say with Nature November, tell us about 183 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Nature November. 184 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 2: Nature November was all about getting outside and spending more 185 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: time in nature, and as the name suggests, it was 186 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: over the month of November. So we had a spreadsheet 187 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: where we'd kind of set up all of these things 188 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 2: that you had to get photos of and you would 189 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: submit those photos to our team WhatsApp group and based 190 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: on the photos that you got, you got points. So, 191 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: for example, you had to get a photo of a 192 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 2: kooka bar, you had to get a photo of a 193 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: gum nut, like all of these random things that you 194 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: would find in Australian nature, and it kind of set 195 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 2: people off in terms of some getting super competitive and 196 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 2: others not really loving that. 197 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: So we loved it. I didn't we wear the competitive ones. 198 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it wasn't like teams. It was just like 199 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: do what you can do. It was so nice because 200 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: I remember one weekend during Nature November, I went to 201 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: Burly Heads up in Queensland. I was with my cousin 202 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: and we went for a hike and I just said 203 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: to her, like, we need to get all these photos 204 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: of these things and we're going to post them. And 205 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: so this was a nice little nudge as well to 206 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: get outside, go have your lunch outside and take some 207 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: photos outside. So I really loved Nation November. But what 208 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 2: did you think of it? 209 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: I remember I was so pissed off because at the 210 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: end of October I had a four day trip hiking 211 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: around the Grampians and I was back in Melbourne on 212 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: the first of November and I could not use any 213 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: of the things I'd done in the Grampians to get 214 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: towards points. So I was pissed when it started. But 215 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: then I made up for it cinitive spirit, I probably did. 216 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: I don't think I did. So now I want to 217 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: talk about intentional in person gatherings, and I know this 218 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: is something that when you spoke to leaders at Lassian, 219 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: this is a big thing for them because they have 220 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: a work Anywhere policy where essentially you can work from 221 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: anywhere in the world, I believe, but you need to 222 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: be in the office four times a year. Can you 223 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: shed light on what at Lassian do and just how 224 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 1: they think about intentional in person gatherings. 225 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: At Lasian really wanted to explore, as they embrace this 226 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 2: work anywhere approach globally, how do they make sure that 227 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 2: they've still got connected teams because they know that cohesion 228 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: is really important for high performing teams and engaged teams 229 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: as well. They were never going to go back to 230 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: forcing people to come into the office every week, so 231 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 2: instead they started experimenting with these intentional in person gatherings. So, 232 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: as you said, Amantha, they happen four times a year. 233 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: The are two or three days and essentially no work 234 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: happens during that time. It's not about checking emails or 235 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: progressing projects. It's really about connecting and making sure that 236 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: anything they're doing in that in person gathering they cannot 237 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 2: do online. So they're really putting a lot of effort 238 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 2: into thinking about if I could do that with my 239 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: team dispersed, then I don't need to bring that to 240 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: the in person gathering. I think the other thing around 241 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: it was with these in person gatherings, they have them 242 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 2: four times a year because they have the benefit of 243 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: thousands of people at at Lassian that they can run 244 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 2: these experiments on. They've found that connection. They found these 245 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: thing called connection decay. So basically, you connected your team 246 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 2: in this in person gathering and then gradually over time 247 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 2: those feelings of connection deplete, and so ultimately they want 248 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: to have these connections every three months because they know 249 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: that that's when the connection decay hits the bottom and 250 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 2: they want to top it up. 251 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: So we think a lot about how we spend time 252 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: together when we do get together as a team in person. 253 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: At Inventim, we aim to do this four times a year. 254 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 1: That's our goal. And in our most recent team offsite, 255 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: we got together for two days in February range of exercises, 256 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: but I wanted to talk about two that I think 257 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 1: were really impactful and I think well received by the 258 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: team in terms of building those connections. So one of 259 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: the things that I'd asked everyone to do in the 260 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: lead up to the off site was to email me 261 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: three things that no one on the team knew about them, 262 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: which was quite a hard task because some of us 263 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: have been working together for nearly a decade. So I 264 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: got all these interesting facts, which was pretty fun to read, 265 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: and I put them all into a hat, and at 266 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: random points throughout those two days, we would draw out 267 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of those facts and people would have to 268 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: guess which person does this fact relate to? And it 269 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: was such a great way I think of finding out 270 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: these really bizarre and random things about your teammates that 271 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: then opened up really interesting conversations that I think never 272 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: would have happened. So another thing that we did is 273 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: I am a big fan of esther pro and a 274 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: little while ago she released a game called where Should 275 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: We Begin that is full of really interesting, thought provoking, 276 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: conversation starter type questions. And so what we did over 277 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: dinner on day one is that we lay out a 278 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: bunch of the cards on the table, and in small 279 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,880 Speaker 1: groups of three or four people, we began to go 280 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: through some of those cards, and again just through having 281 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: these different provocations of you know, going deeper and talking 282 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: about stuff that wouldn't necessarily come up in a standard 283 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: kind of work off site, I found it was a 284 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: really great way of deepening connections within the team. 285 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 2: And the thing with that game is everyone can pick 286 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: like two cards at once, and so if you don't 287 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 2: like one, you don't want to answer one, you can 288 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 2: answer the other one. And it's up to you in 289 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 2: terms of how much you share as well. So it 290 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,080 Speaker 2: still gives people the freedom to be like, oh no, 291 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about that, I'm going to 292 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: pick something else, and you can weed out the questions 293 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: that are like I think there's some questions they're in 294 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 2: appropriate for, like you partner. 295 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: I think they're the pink ones, the intimacy questions. I 296 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: did remove those, Shah, I did actually think about that. 297 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: Another insight that came out of the Future of Work 298 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: research is the changing role of managers and that managers 299 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: not only do they still have to manage people and 300 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: get the best performance out of their team, they're also 301 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: in a very large way acting as therapists. And I 302 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: love this quote that you put in the report from 303 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: Brian Crop, who is the chief of research at Gartner, 304 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: and he says, if you don't want your employees talking 305 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: to you about their personal situations and needs, and you're 306 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: not going to be there to support them. Odds are 307 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: that you shouldn't be a manager. Tell me more about 308 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: this insight. 309 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: I think this is so interesting because it's almost been 310 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 2: so hard to be a manager, and so often will 311 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: get elevated to being a manager because they are technically 312 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: good at their job, and so many organizations are designed 313 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 2: in a way that the only way to progress and 314 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 2: to advance your career is to go upwards and that 315 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: means becoming a manager, and so many people just don't 316 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 2: want to be a manager. And so what this really 317 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: highlights is that more and more there's greater pressure on 318 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 2: our managers to be supporting employees as whole people, and 319 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 2: that means caring about the emotional wellbeing of the people 320 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: in your team. And let's just face it, some people 321 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 2: just don't want to invest their time in caring about 322 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: the emotional wellbeing of their team. They want to focus 323 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: on their technical expertise. And so I think it just 324 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: really highlights the specialist skills that you need as a manager, 325 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,199 Speaker 2: because you honestly have to invest so much time and 326 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: energy into really just caring about the people and your 327 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 2: team and understanding the challenges that they're going through and 328 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 2: being there, being a sounding board. Employees expect this as well. 329 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 2: There is this real growth in empathic leadership and the 330 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 2: need for employees to see their leaders as someone that 331 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 2: will care for them. 332 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: We will be back soon where Sharon I discuss how 333 00:18:22,320 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: we feel as psychologists having this jewel role of being 334 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: both managers and also sometimes feeling like pseudotherapists, and we 335 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: get into how we both navigate that. If you're looking 336 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work and live, 337 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: I write a weekly newsletter where I share practical and 338 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: simple to apply tips to improve your life. You can 339 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: sign up for that at Amantha dot substack dot com. 340 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot substack dot com. So shar where both 341 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: psychologists organizational psychologists, not counseling or clinical psychologists. Just let 342 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: that be clear, and we're both managers as well. So 343 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: how do you think about this idea of you're kind 344 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: of a pseudotherapist, but actually you're a psychologist, which lends 345 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: itself to maybe knowing more about how to help people 346 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: work through and process things that can be quite emotionally distressing, 347 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: but you're a manager and that's not your role as 348 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: a manager. And also the ethics around that. So how 349 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: do you approach it? What's in your view of this 350 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 1: as a manager? 351 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 2: My view is that I really want to be a 352 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: caring manager. I want to be someone that genuinely cares 353 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: about people and the team, and they know that I 354 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 2: care about them, and that is my role as their manager. 355 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: I want to make sure that they are successful and 356 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 2: being caring and understanding who they are as a person 357 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 2: and what's going on for them is critical to helping 358 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: them be successful. Where I think the line is is 359 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 2: that I am not responsible for the solutions and the 360 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 2: ways in which they need to solve the problems in 361 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 2: their life. And so it's about understanding what resources to 362 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,360 Speaker 2: people in your team have available to them that they 363 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: are leveraging to help them deal with just the challenges 364 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: that everyone faces in their life. Do my people have 365 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: resources that they can leverage, whether that be a trained 366 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: professional that can help them deal with, you know, a 367 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: particularly challenging time in their life, or resources in terms 368 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: of you know, friends and family support as well. So 369 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 2: I think the line for me is I'm not giving 370 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 2: people solutions. I'm instead ensuring that they have the means 371 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: to find those solutions themselves. And really that really just 372 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 2: taps back into the whole mindset of coaching as well, 373 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: is you really want to help people find the solutions 374 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 2: themselves and make sure that people do have those. 375 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 1: Resources, something I find hard and I haven't been in 376 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 1: a management role for many years, except I've spent the 377 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: last five months back in a manager role while I've 378 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: been temporary CEO ad invent Him, And I think being 379 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: a manager has changed so much between now and when 380 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: I was last managing people, which was before the pandemic. 381 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: And people do bring a lot more of themselves to work, 382 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: and I think it's almost expected, like in one on 383 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: one conversations that you have with your direct reports, for 384 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: the world outside of work to also come into those 385 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: conversations the greater context of what that person is experiencing, 386 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: particularly when there's high levels of stress outside of work, 387 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: that's going to have a potentially big impact on work. 388 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 1: Something I found really challenging is the reason why I 389 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: decided not to be a clinical psychologist and following the 390 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: footsteps of my mum, is because I never really knew 391 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: how would I emotionally distance myself from the pain that 392 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: my clients would be experiencing. But I find now being 393 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: a manager in twenty twenty four, and with this kind 394 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: of duel role of almost being a therapist, but not 395 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: in the clinical sense that we think about it as psychologists, 396 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: I find myself really taking on board other people's stress 397 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: and I haven't been successful in my five months so 398 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 1: far of at the end of the day going how 399 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: do I just switch off from that? And I find 400 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: that I really carry it home. And I wonder how 401 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: many other managers who have found that their role has 402 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: completely changed can relate to that, because I personally find 403 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 1: it really really hard as a manager in twenty twenty four. 404 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 2: Oh God, I one hundred percent agree. And I think, 405 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 2: as I'm sitting here speaking, I one hundred percent agree 406 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,880 Speaker 2: with you that it is so challenging. And I even 407 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,959 Speaker 2: remember a conversation that you and I had when I 408 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 2: was struggling with something outside of my life as well, 409 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 2: and I feel like that's not the first time that 410 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,920 Speaker 2: I've been upset in front of you. I didn't expect 411 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: you to solve that problem for me. I just at 412 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 2: that point needed someone to just offload because I was 413 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: feeling super stressed and I was like, today is a 414 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 2: crappy day, and here is why, right, and I'm really 415 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 2: fortunate that I have that relationship with you where I 416 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: can talk about that. And you know, in terms of 417 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 2: what Amantha did for people listening, she did exactly what 418 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: she should have done, which is to say, do you 419 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 2: have access to someone to speak to? Do you have 420 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: a psychologist that you can talk about this with? And 421 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 2: I said, this is exactly the right time for me 422 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,080 Speaker 2: to do that. You know, and I do have a 423 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: psychologist and I speak to her on and off as 424 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: life's challenges come at me. And so I just that 425 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 2: was a little push that I needed and it worked 426 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: really well in anyone listening, like, you don't need to 427 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: find the answers, You just need to be caring and 428 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,360 Speaker 2: provide that space and make sure that people know that 429 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 2: there are resources available to them. 430 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: So sharp. One of the things that we use at 431 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: invent Him to make it easier for managers to play 432 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: that duel role and know how to get the best 433 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: out of people is we have a tool called the 434 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: one Page Operating Manual, or we call it the OPOM. 435 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: Can you share a bit about what the OPOM is. 436 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 2: The OPOM is kind of like your written manual in 437 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: terms of, like if you get a new piece of technology, 438 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: you get that little slip in the package that tells 439 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: you how to work the technology the hardware. Right, So 440 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: a manuel basically tells you how to get the best 441 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 2: out of that thing that you've bought. And we as 442 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: humans are a lot more complex than technology or ikea furniture, 443 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 2: and yet most of us don't come with a manual. 444 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,359 Speaker 2: And so a one page operating manual is a chance 445 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 2: for everyone once they joins the Inventim team to write 446 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: down a little bit about themselves in terms of how 447 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: they work and how to get the best out of them. 448 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: So, what are their. 449 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: Strengths, how do they like you to communicate with them, 450 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: what's the unique value they add to the team, what 451 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: are their pet peeves? Like all sorts of things in 452 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: terms of how they work. And I find this is 453 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 2: also a good opportunity for you if you're thinking about 454 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: setting boundaries in your team, you could use something like 455 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: the one page operating Manual to help you to establish 456 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 2: some boundaries with your team members. And this is also 457 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 2: a way in which you can feed in some of 458 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: those boundaries. Because one of the questions that we ask 459 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: is around how do you like to receive feedback and 460 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: I actually had a situation last week where I realized 461 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 2: that I totally broke one of my own boundaries and 462 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: I felt I didn't know what was wrong. If I'm 463 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: doing like a big workshopper, high pressure presentation for a client, 464 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 2: like those kind of like intense things, I don't want 465 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 2: feedback immediately. I love feedback, but I want it the 466 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: day after, once I have decompressed. We ran a webinar 467 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 2: and I don't think it went as well as I 468 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: wanted it to. It was still fine, but I definitely 469 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 2: had some reflections afterwards of where I could improve, which 470 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 2: is good, right, we always want to improve. So one 471 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: of our team members they asked me, where would you 472 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 2: like some feedback? Like where can I share the feedback? 473 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 2: And I said I just responded immediately because I don't know. 474 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: I wasn't even thinking, and I was like, oh, yeah, 475 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 2: just send me the feedback whatever, email it to me. 476 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: And so they did, and it was like this long 477 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: email with actually really good feedback and strategies, but it 478 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 2: was very intense, and that night I could not stop 479 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 2: thinking about the feedback and I didn't know what was 480 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 2: going on. I remember going to bed and still thinking 481 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 2: about it and I was like, what this has really 482 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 2: thrown me. It wasn't until the next day that I realized, Charlotte, 483 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: you broke your own boundary and that is on me. 484 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 2: If you set a boundary, you need to honor that boundary. 485 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 2: And so I really reflected afterwards. I was like, it 486 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 2: was just a nice reminder, actually, of this is an 487 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 2: important boundary for me. Next time someone asks me, I 488 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 2: mean to say, send me your feedback tomorrow once I've 489 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: had a chance to decompress. And it's just a nice 490 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 2: reminder to keep that one page operating manuals like a living, 491 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,919 Speaker 2: breathing document. Ultimately, it's also your responsibility as well to 492 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: manage your boundaries. 493 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: Yourself navigating through this world where we bring our whole 494 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: selves to work. What we are told is the role 495 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: of setting boundaries. Really important for managers to set boundaries, 496 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: but important for everyone to set boundaries so that they 497 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: can really look after themselves and not be at a 498 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: point where they are feeling intensely stressed or burnt out. 499 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm curious, Shah, for you, how do you think about 500 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: boundary setting for work and non work things. 501 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: You need to have time to invest in other avenues 502 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 2: of your life, and that's the important so that you 503 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 2: can come back to work the next day and be 504 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 2: actually present and have the energy and the resources to 505 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 2: dedicate to work. And so for me, when I'm feeling stressed, 506 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: I find myself working longer hours, and that's when I 507 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 2: really need to stay on top of my boundaries in 508 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 2: terms of how do I manage my workday. And so 509 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: for me, what that looks like is I rely on 510 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: my dog, which is a very good accountability buddy, because 511 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,120 Speaker 2: I take her out in the morning and I take 512 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: her out at the end of the day as well. 513 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: And what I've realized is that I need that transition 514 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: at the end of the day to move me out 515 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 2: of the workday and to transition into to evening Charlotte, 516 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 2: who can switch off and stop thinking about work. So 517 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 2: for me, it's really setting those boundaries around making sure 518 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: I'm switching off so that I can protect my well being. 519 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: I recently spoke to Laura may Martin again on How 520 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: I Work, who's Google's executive productivity advisor, and one of 521 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: the things that she says a lot of people at 522 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: Google are starting to do is putting their boundaries in 523 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: their email, like in this signature, particularly around communication boundaries, 524 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: and the advice actually gave me is say what you 525 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: do as opposed to what you don't do. So, for example, 526 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: I only check emails between Monday to Friday, nine to five, 527 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: for example, And I like that because a positive frame 528 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: around this is what I do do and this is 529 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: what works for me. And it's something that I've been 530 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: thinking quite a bit around what are my boundaries, which 531 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: is not a question that I ask myself a lot, 532 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: because I do believe in work life integration and I 533 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: think when you're the founder of a business, I'm often 534 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: thinking about work. But that's fun for me, it's enjoyment. 535 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: But I did go through a few months this year 536 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: where I was working pretty intense hours, more intense, longer 537 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: hours than I have worked in years, and I had 538 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: several members of the team say, you're working too many hours. 539 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: You're not being a good role model. And I took 540 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: on board the feedback, although I will say it also 541 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: really frustrated me because at invent He we value autonomy 542 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: and choice and people were kind of going, no, you 543 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: can't choose that. You have to choose shorter hours and 544 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: lead by example. And then I got COVID and I 545 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: was out for a week and then it took a 546 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: full three weeks to really recover. And now that I'm 547 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: back on board, I've changed how I work and I'm 548 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: trying to keep clearer boundaries, particularly with my weekends, and 549 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: it is making a difference to my well being. Look 550 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: back on those few months where I was working really 551 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: intensely and I wonder was I really okay. I thought 552 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: I was okay at the time, and I was full 553 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: of energy, and I remember grumbling to another psychologist friend 554 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: of mine, going, everyone's telling me to work last hours, 555 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: but I feel fine. But now I kind of look 556 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: back and I'm working in a different way and I 557 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: am actually feeling a lot better. 558 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 2: So yeah, boundaries, I think it comes back to, like, also, 559 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 2: what are your goals? Because I'm the same as you 560 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 2: where I will happily work on like a weekend if 561 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 2: I have a spark of inspiration or you know, there's 562 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: something that I'm working on that's really giving me energy 563 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 2: and I want to work on it right and that's 564 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: having a positive impact on me. But when the context 565 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: changed and I was feeling more stressed, I said to myself, actually, 566 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: that's not serving me anymore, and my kind of goal shifted. 567 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 2: At that point. You cast a shadow as a leader. 568 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: And so if the question is if being a leader 569 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: to me is important, if that's a goal that I'm 570 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 2: working on, then I do need to think about this. 571 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: And so it's always like is this serving you? Is 572 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: this behavior serving you? 573 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: Or not? Now, for people that want to dig into 574 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: more insights that we uncovered in the Future of Work project, 575 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to put a link to the full white 576 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 1: paper in the show notes. It is such a great read. 577 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: And Shah, thank you so much for joining me. 578 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 2: Thank you. 579 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode. I would love to ask 580 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: a favor. Click follow on the podcast app that you're 581 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: listening to this on, and if you're feeling really generous, 582 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: leave a review for the show. Following this podcast and 583 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: leaving reviews helps How I Work find new listeners and 584 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: your support is one of the things that makes this 585 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: podcast possible. Thank you for sharing part of your day 586 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: with me by listening to How I Work. If you're 587 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: keen for more tips on how to work better, connect 588 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: with me via LinkedIn or Instagram. I'm very easy to find. 589 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: Just search for Amantha Imba. How I work was recorded 590 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: on the traditional land of the Warrenery people, part of 591 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: the cool And Nation. I am so grateful for being 592 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 1: able to work and live on this beautiful land, and 593 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: I want to pay my respects to Elder's past, present 594 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: and emerging. How I Work is produced by me Amantha Imba. 595 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: The episode producer was Rowena Murray. And thank you to 596 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: Martin Imba who does the audio mix for every episode 597 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: and makes everything sound better than it would have otherwise.