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Speaker 1: Now, as you heard on the show yesterday, the Bail

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Speaker 1: and Weapons Offenses Review was released and recommended no changes

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Speaker 1: to bail laws. There is a change in definition of

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Speaker 1: machetes and access, meaning people committing offenses with these weapons

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Speaker 1: will now be subject to bail laws passed in late March.

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Speaker 1: Those laws were passed following the stabbing death of twenty

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Speaker 1: year old bottle shop worker Declan Lavity and mean people

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Speaker 1: charged with violent offenses involving certain weapons will be subject

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Speaker 1: to a presumption against bail. But some in the community

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Speaker 1: felt the bail reform should have gone further and included

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Speaker 1: other things being used as weapons. Today, a petition signed

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Speaker 1: by fifteen thousand people is going to be presented to

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Speaker 1: the Parliament. It was created by Samara Lavity and its

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Speaker 1: supports further change, but despite community concerns, the Task Force

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Speaker 1: recommended that no further changes be made to the Bail Act.

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Speaker 1: Now joining me on the line ahead of Parliament resuming

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Speaker 1: is the Chief Minister Attasha Files.

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Speaker 2: Good morning to you, Chief Minister.

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Speaker 3: Good morning Katie, Good morning listeners.

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Speaker 1: Now, Chief Minister, why didn't you go a step further

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Speaker 1: to meet community expectations with the bail legislation.

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, we acted in March. We undertook that review

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Speaker 3: so that we could ensure that everything we've done was scrutinized,

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Speaker 3: and we've seen further changes around the actual weapons themselves,

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Speaker 3: and also the work that we're undertaking with the Nice strategy,

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Speaker 3: which should be complete in the coming weeks.

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Speaker 1: Now, it is noted in that report which was released

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Speaker 1: that data indicates there are a large number of defendants

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Speaker 1: charged with weapons offenses who are not captured by other

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Speaker 1: presumptions against bail, relatively few of whom, though, commit new

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Speaker 1: violent offenses while on bail. Now, according to the report,

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Speaker 1: this category of defendant therefore presents a low risk of

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Speaker 1: committing new violent offenses while on bail, and introducing a

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Speaker 1: presumption against bail for this group would capture a large

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Speaker 1: number of defendants who pose a low risk to community

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Speaker 1: safety and could put undue pressure on an already overcrowded

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Speaker 1: prison system. Now, Chief Minister, if these numbers are low

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Speaker 1: and the likelihood of someone reoffending is so low that

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Speaker 1: further changes are not needed, what do you think went

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Speaker 1: wrong in the situation where Declan Lavity was allegedly stabbed

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Speaker 1: to death by a person who was on bail at

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Speaker 1: the time of the attack over an earlier alleged assault.

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Speaker 3: Katie, before I respond to that specific question, I'd just

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Speaker 3: like to again acknowledge Declan's family and his friends and

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Speaker 3: the grief that they are still suffering. In terms of

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Speaker 3: knife crime, we want to stop knives being carried around

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Speaker 3: in the Northern Churchy. We want to stop knife crime

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Speaker 3: before it happens. And so what we are trying to

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Speaker 3: do is eliminate knives being carried and used in the

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Speaker 3: heat of the moment in absolutely tragic circumstances.

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Speaker 1: And look, I'll get that, we will get to that,

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Speaker 1: but my question is very clear and simple. What do

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Speaker 1: you think went wrong? And I know that you will

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Speaker 1: say that it is a matter before the courts. I'm

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Speaker 1: not expecting you to go into the detail. But clearly,

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Speaker 1: somehow someone has slipped through the gaps and a life

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Speaker 1: has been lost. So that is why the community is

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Speaker 1: calling for further change.

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Speaker 3: So Katie again point to the response that I just provided.

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Speaker 3: It is not acceptable to carry knives around in our community.

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Speaker 3: We need to make sure that that is not commonplace

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Speaker 3: and we need to remove those knives so that we

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Speaker 3: don't see tragedies within our community.

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Speaker 1: So again I'll ask, if the bail laws are correct,

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Speaker 1: how did this alleged defender slip through the gaps?

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, what this review has shown us is that

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Speaker 3: we've got a robust act, that we've got very wide reaching,

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Speaker 3: comprehensive bail laws. We have also identified areas where we

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Speaker 3: need to make changes. And as I said, we're also

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Speaker 3: working on that knife strategy and we've seen some really

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Speaker 3: good results from the wanding that has been introduced in

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Speaker 3: Queensland in both stopping people going out with knives but

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Speaker 3: removing hundreds of knives from the community. So that's what

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Speaker 3: we're aiming to achieve through this comprehensive work.

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Speaker 1: Look, I will get to the ins and outs of

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Speaker 1: that knife strategy in a moment, but what I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to ask right now is how can Territorians be sure

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Speaker 1: that there aren't others who are slipping through the cracks

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Speaker 1: and putting the lives of innocent territorians at risk.

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Speaker 3: So that is the task force and that review which

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Speaker 3: was undertaken by Anti Police, Department of Attorney General and Justice,

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Speaker 3: Correctional Services, the DPP and Territory Families and they were

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Speaker 3: looking closely at the data and the evidence relating to

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Speaker 3: weapon offenses in the Northern Territory, and that's where they

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Speaker 3: looked at the changes that we made in March on

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Speaker 3: Urgency and also recommended these further changes.

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Speaker 1: So as it stands with the acceptance of the report

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Speaker 1: into bail and the recommendation that no further changes are

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Speaker 1: required into the Bail Act or the Criminal Code, can

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Speaker 1: you guarantee that we're not going to see another Territorian's

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Speaker 1: life lost at the hands of an offender on bail.

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Speaker 3: So that is what I'm working to achieve, Katie, through

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Speaker 3: all of this work, because it is an absolute tragedy

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Speaker 3: when a young person, any person loses their life. But

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Speaker 3: when we see these heated moments that happen from time

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Speaker 3: to time, but then when you suddenly have a knife involved,

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Speaker 3: it can so quickly end in absolute tragedy.

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Speaker 1: Well, and we've seen it, and that's where the community

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Speaker 1: really is screaming out wanting further change. So the review

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Speaker 1: recommended further changes to the Weapons Control Act two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one, including adding an axe into the definition of

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Speaker 1: a control weapon and clarifying the definition of a knife

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Speaker 1: to include a machete. Now violent offenses involving these weapons

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Speaker 1: will now trigger a presumption against bail. Why were those

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Speaker 1: types of weapons not already included?

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, in terms of the acts, it is as

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Speaker 3: you've just said, changing it from an offensive weapon to

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Speaker 3: a controlled weapon. In terms of the machete, the definition

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Speaker 3: has been strengthened and this was on the request of police.

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Speaker 3: It felt it was already in the legislation, but they

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Speaker 3: wanted it strengthened to make it absolutely clear, and so

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Speaker 3: that's where we've acted and listened to police on that change.

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Speaker 1: But so again, if you offended with those types of

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Speaker 1: weapons prior, you could get bail.

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Speaker 3: So this is coming into that presentation.

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Speaker 2: Yes or no, like you could get bail.

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Speaker 3: Well on the machete, Katie, the presumption it was believed

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Speaker 3: that it was against but they wanted to be absolute

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Speaker 3: clarity and that was a request from police, And so

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Speaker 3: that's where we've listened to police in this review on

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Speaker 3: making sure that that is very clear. The definition of

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Speaker 3: a knife includes a machete.

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Speaker 1: Can you understand how people listening this morning will be

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Speaker 1: thinking that is absolutely absurd that it wasn't already included.

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Speaker 3: So Katie, we have legislation. It's developed over many years.

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Speaker 3: Things are reviewed and this is what we undertook a

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Speaker 3: comprehensive review, looking at every element of it. We made

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Speaker 3: urgent changes in March. This review highlighted that those changes

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Speaker 3: were the right thing to do. And as I said,

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Speaker 3: inn of the definition of a machete, it was believed

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Speaker 3: to be within that definition, but we are strengthening it

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Speaker 3: for absolute clarity, to make sure that it is a

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Speaker 3: controlled weapon. And there's that presumption against but.

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Speaker 1: So rocks, bottles, makeshift weapons, they're not going to be included.

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Speaker 3: So Katie that this is a difficult space. There is

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Speaker 3: a range of items that are in everyday life that

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Speaker 3: can become a weapon, and so it's important police can

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Speaker 3: act if someone is using that as a weapon. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time we don't want to be cumbersome

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Speaker 3: in terms of.

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Speaker 1: But if someone uses one of those things as a weapon,

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Speaker 1: if they use a makeshift weapon or a rock or

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Speaker 1: a bottle to assault somebody else, is their potential that

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Speaker 1: they can get out on bail.

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Speaker 3: So police will make the decision based on the evidence

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Speaker 3: before them with that particular case.

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Speaker 2: But the presumption is for.

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Speaker 3: So Katie, in terms of everyday items that can be

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Speaker 3: used as a weapon. You know, people can use a

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Speaker 3: metal water bottle, they can use a phone, and so

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Speaker 3: police will make those decisions.

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Speaker 1: But what we want, so the presumption, what I'm really

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Speaker 1: trying to get to the bottom of for territory ends

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Speaker 1: to understand, is that if a makeshift you know, weapon

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Speaker 1: is used, or if a rock or a bottle is

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Speaker 1: used to assault somebody else, the presumption is not going

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Speaker 1: to be against bail.

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Speaker 3: So Katie, police will guided by the legislation and also

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Speaker 3: the courts will decide if someone gets bailed based on

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Speaker 3: a range of circumstances.

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Speaker 2: But let's be really blunt here.

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Speaker 1: The government are the ones you guys, You are the

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Speaker 1: decision makers. You are the ones that the community expects

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Speaker 1: to make difficult decisions for all of the Northern Territory

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Speaker 1: for the betterment of the territory. And I understand that

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Speaker 1: there's lots of different reasons that can come into play here.

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Speaker 1: I you know, domestic violent situations where a victim may

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Speaker 1: defend themselves with something that could be a makeshift weapon.

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Speaker 2: We don't want.

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Speaker 1: People like that getting caught up here and having that

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Speaker 1: presumption against bail when they are potentially a victim. But

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Speaker 1: when you are talking about somebody committing a violent offense

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Speaker 1: with a makeshift weapon, the expectation from the community is

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Speaker 1: that they're not going to be.

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Speaker 2: Allowed out on bail.

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Speaker 1: But from what I am hearing, that presumption is not

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Speaker 1: against bail and the recommendation of the review is for

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Speaker 1: there to be no changes.

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, the review looked at the bail provisions and

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Speaker 3: looked quite broadly at them. The review has told us

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Speaker 3: two things that we need to give police powers to

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Speaker 3: stop and search to help combat nice crime, and to

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Speaker 3: widen the scope of what is deemed as a controlled weapon,

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Speaker 3: and that is where you've seen the changes recommended. It

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Speaker 3: did look at the instances that you're talking about and

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Speaker 3: feels the legislation is appropriate, that it is robust to

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Speaker 3: keep territory in safe, but at the same time be

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Speaker 3: practical and allow police out on the beat to make decisions.

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Speaker 1: And are you confident that that's in line with the

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Speaker 1: community's expectations, Katie, In.

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Speaker 3: Terms of community expectation, absolutely, our courts, our police make

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Speaker 3: sure they are part of our community. They understand the

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Speaker 3: community's expectation. But what this review did was looked at

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Speaker 3: what we had in place for bail and weapons, and

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Speaker 3: it has made recommendations. It also reviewed the recommendations we

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Speaker 3: made on urgency and what we are doing also is

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Speaker 3: tackling knife crime. It's not acceptable to go out to

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Speaker 3: think I want to put a knife in my pocket

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Speaker 3: and go out. This is the issue that we're seeing

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Speaker 3: with tragic circumstances in our community.

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Speaker 1: So I will ask you again, as it stands, with

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Speaker 1: the acceptance of that report into bail and the recommendations

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Speaker 1: that no further changes are required to the Bail Act

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Speaker 1: or the Criminal Code, can you guarantee that we're not

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Speaker 1: going to see another Territorian's life lost at the hands

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Speaker 1: of an offender on bail, Katie.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to see any Territorian's life lost, and

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Speaker 3: that's why we're working so hard in this knife crime space.

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Speaker 3: Since when did it become okay to put a steak

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Speaker 3: knife in your pocket before you head out on Mitchell

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Speaker 3: Street for the evening. That's the nice going to say.

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Speaker 1: I get what you're saying, but it's not only knives

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Speaker 1: that are being used. And I know that there will

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Speaker 1: be people screaming at their radios this morning saying Wolfie

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Speaker 1: It's not just knives that people are using. We're seeing

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Speaker 1: cars driven through shops. You know, you're seeing all sorts

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Speaker 1: of everyday things being used as weapons. And I've read

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Speaker 1: the report, like I understand it. I can see this

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Speaker 1: from both sides. But what I think Territorians want to

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Speaker 1: be sure of is that they're going to be safe

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Speaker 1: and that somebody that they expect would not be on

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Speaker 1: bail isn't ending up on bail and then committing another offense.

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Speaker 3: And that's what we're working to do, Katie, every day,

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Speaker 3: is to make the territory a safer place.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's talk about these changes when it comes

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Speaker 1: to knives and the government introducing the new legislation which

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Speaker 1: will allow police to want people in public places, Chief Minister,

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Speaker 1: how exactly.

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Speaker 2: Is this going to work?

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Speaker 1: Is it going to be anywhere that they can wand

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Speaker 1: someone who they think may be armed with a knife.

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Speaker 3: This is based on trials that have been undertaken in Queensland,

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Speaker 3: and Queensland's recently extended their laws in this space. So

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Speaker 3: it'll be at transport hubs, transport itself, their public buses

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Speaker 3: for example, high risk areas, and there's also provision for

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Speaker 3: police to enact. If they reasonably need to utilize that tool,

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Speaker 3: they can. It's very simple, it's non invasive. Someone. It

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Speaker 3: is a small metal detector wand And when you're entering

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Speaker 3: an area such as Mitchell Street, for example, there'll be

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Speaker 3: a police operation and they'll be wanding everyone that enters

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Speaker 3: that area.

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Speaker 1: And so do police officers need to get approval from

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Speaker 1: a commander before they sort of set something like that up,

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Speaker 1: because you know sometimes if there is notice that you're

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Speaker 1: going to set something like that up, surely someone had

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Speaker 1: just chucked their knife away.

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Speaker 3: No, so not in those areas under and this is

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Speaker 3: the legislation that will debate today. So those transport public

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Speaker 3: transport for example, transport hubs and the high risk areas, No,

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Speaker 3: they will not. They will go in there and at

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Speaker 3: any time they can wand people. And they have seen

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Speaker 3: in Queensland people one not taking the weapons out in public,

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Speaker 3: but two hundreds of knives and weapons have been taken

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Speaker 3: off individuals which stops them from being there at the

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Speaker 3: moment that something gets heated. And as I said, when

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Speaker 3: something gets heated, if there's suddenly a knife involved, it

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Speaker 3: so quickly can end in a tragic circumstance.

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Speaker 2: Look, I hope that it makes a change.

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Speaker 1: I do hope that it means that we see crackdown

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Speaker 1: on knife crime, But how will this provide more protections

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Speaker 1: for staff at bottle shops for example?

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Speaker 3: So those high risk areas, Katie, have also been based

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Speaker 3: around the areas of high risk with alcohol, so identifying

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Speaker 3: areas where we do see behavior that is not acceptable,

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Speaker 3: and that's where that has come from.

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Speaker 1: Now, one of the other recommendations around it's actually around

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Speaker 1: education for judges and prosecutors.

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Speaker 2: Why is that required.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't that come down to judges having to work within

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Speaker 1: the legislation that is provided by government.

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, this is an issue that has emerged quite rapidly.

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Speaker 3: We want to stop it. We don't want to see

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Speaker 3: people having this behavior where they're taking knives out, and

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Speaker 3: so that's why the task Force has also concluded that

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Speaker 3: it's recommended that there is an education approach for all

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Speaker 3: involved in this space to understand the serious consequences that

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Speaker 3: knives can happen very quickly.

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Speaker 1: So it's just in relation to that knife crime that

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Speaker 1: there is that recommendation around judges and prosecutors receiving further education.

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Speaker 3: So Katie. We more broadly, and we'll be launching our

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Speaker 3: knife crime strategy in the coming weeks. We're working on

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Speaker 3: that as efficiently as we can because we want to

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Speaker 3: have a whole of community response. Coming back to the

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Speaker 3: point that I was making before, it's not acceptable to

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Speaker 3: be taking knives out, fishing knives, steak knives. We don't

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Speaker 3: want people carrying knives. And we've seen this change where

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Speaker 3: people somehow think I'll protect myself by carrying a knife,

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Speaker 3: and we've rapidly deteriorated. We want to remove that element

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Speaker 3: from every part of our society.

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Speaker 1: Educating the judges on prosecutors, I mean, surely they would

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Speaker 1: agree with that. You know that you don't want people

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Speaker 1: walking around with their knives, So why exactly do we

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Speaker 1: need to be educating them?

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Speaker 3: So we want to make sure that everyone in our

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Speaker 3: community understands how serious even the most simple knife, how

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Speaker 3: tragic the consequence can be.

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Speaker 2: So quickly chaffinis.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to have to power through in addition

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Speaker 1: to the changes that your government announced yesterday, well, the

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Speaker 1: criminal age of responsibility it's going to be raised on

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Speaker 1: August one. What programs are actually in place to support this?

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Speaker 3: So Katie, we're talking about a very low number of individuals. Presently,

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Speaker 3: there's no people of that age being held in detention.

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Speaker 3: But Territory Families has stood up within the agency the

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Speaker 3: program that if someone would previously have been sentenced to

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Speaker 3: a detention center, Territory Families will now run that program.

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Speaker 3: That's in addition to the range of diversion and sentence

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Speaker 3: programs we have for young people across the territory.

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Speaker 2: Could that be like an out of care home?

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Speaker 3: So, Katie, as I said, there's no one presently, they're

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Speaker 3: very very low numbers, but Territory Families will make sure

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Speaker 3: that that young person has a concert quent for their behavior.

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Speaker 3: But at the same time, we have that intervention and

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Speaker 3: we don't set them up on a constant cycle in

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Speaker 3: and out of our justice system for potentially their life.

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Speaker 1: Are those kids going to be forced to do those

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Speaker 1: programs though, or are they optional?

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Speaker 3: They'll be forced, Katie. So if a young person is

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Speaker 3: held in detention, they won't have a choice of where

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Speaker 3: they go. It just will not be in a correctional facility.

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Speaker 3: And we're talking about ten and eleven year olds, only

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Speaker 3: very low numbers. As I said, there's presently no children

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Speaker 3: of that age being held in detention in the territory.

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Speaker 1: All right, Chief Minister, We're going to have to wrap up.

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Speaker 1: But today in Parliament, a petition which has been signed

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Speaker 1: by fifteen thousand people, more than fifteen thousand people, is

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Speaker 1: going to be presented to Parliament. It's created by Samara Lavity.

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Speaker 1: The petition is calling on you and your government to

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Speaker 1: do more when it comes to crime. Today we focused

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Speaker 1: on Baio legislation following the tragic deaths of Declan, but

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Speaker 1: he's not the only person whose life has been lost

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Speaker 1: this year through violent and tragic circumstances. Many feel that

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Speaker 1: the announcement that you made yesterday is not in line

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Speaker 1: with the expectations of the community to keep people safe.

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Speaker 2: Why aren't you listening to their voices, Katie.

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Speaker 3: Each and every day we listen to the voices of

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Speaker 3: Territorians and we act to make sure our community is

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Speaker 3: as safe as possible.

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Speaker 1: Chief finisterra I'm going to have to leave it there.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate your time as always.

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Speaker 3: Take care.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.