1
00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:03,920
Speaker 1: How do you talk about big issues on the Internet

2
00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:09,680
Speaker 1: without getting canceled? In our modern information age, most of

3
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:14,120
Speaker 1: our heated and important debates happen online, whether it's three blogs,

4
00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,800
Speaker 1: comments sections, YouTube videos, or podcasts. While this unprecedented level

5
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: of access to almost anyone's opinions might have sounded like

6
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,120
Speaker 1: a dream to the tech heads of yesteryear, well you

7
00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: probably know it's not quite the dream we thought it

8
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:36,840
Speaker 1: might be. Sadly, all that access has a downside, whether

9
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,559
Speaker 1: it's plain old trolls or well meaning critics. You're going

10
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:43,440
Speaker 1: to have a lot of digital watchdogs once you start

11
00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:48,319
Speaker 1: publishing your ideas online. And MoMA Mia out Loud co

12
00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: hosts Mia Friedman, Holly Wainwright, and Jesse Stevens are no

13
00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,880
Speaker 1: strangers to this kind of scrutiny. So what have they

14
00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,560
Speaker 1: done to avoid being canceled in the era of the

15
00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:09,120
Speaker 1: cancel culture. My name is doctor amanthe Imbert. I'm an

16
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:13,680
Speaker 1: organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium.

17
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 1: And this is how I work, a show about how

18
00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: to help you do your best work? On Today is

19
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,200
Speaker 1: my favorite tip episode. We go back to an interview

20
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 1: from the past and I pick out my favorite tip

21
00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,640
Speaker 1: from the interview. In today's show, I speak with Mia,

22
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,919
Speaker 1: Holly and Jesse about not getting canceled.

23
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 2: Interestingly, I don't write anymore really except for Muma MEA subscribers,

24
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:45,120
Speaker 2: and I don't do any TV anymore at all because

25
00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,920
Speaker 2: of the threat of cancelation, and because you know, I

26
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,840
Speaker 2: have a responsibility as well. I'm the co owner of

27
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,720
Speaker 2: a business that employs more than one hundred women. So

28
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,480
Speaker 2: if I were to say something that was either offensive

29
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,559
Speaker 2: inadvertently or not, or if I was to get into

30
00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:06,639
Speaker 2: a cancelation situation, that could be detrimental to so many people.

31
00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,800
Speaker 2: But what I've realized is that people hate watch TV,

32
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,760
Speaker 2: they hate read, but they don't hate listen, and so

33
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 2: not always but mostly you have Also, we have a

34
00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,080
Speaker 2: degree of control because it's not live, and we have

35
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,800
Speaker 2: a producer and each other to watch our backs, and

36
00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,360
Speaker 2: we're very mindful of this every time we put something out.

37
00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 2: But ultimately people are lazy, and cancel culture usually comes

38
00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,359
Speaker 2: from someone taking something out of context. And one of

39
00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 2: the most difficult things for podcasters is that it's quite

40
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 2: hard to share a podcast. You can't share a segment

41
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,560
Speaker 2: of a podcast and that's something that is a curse

42
00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 2: and a blessing because it makes discoverability more difficult, but

43
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 2: it means that it can't be easily shared on Twitter,

44
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 2: which is where people canceled generally.

45
00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,440
Speaker 3: We also, obviously, you know, working in the industries that

46
00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 3: we've all worked in for years now, we're very aware

47
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,480
Speaker 3: of hot button issues, dangerous places to go, topics that

48
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,360
Speaker 3: we really should not we do not have a position

49
00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 3: to discuss. So and also one of the things that

50
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 3: we all feel deeply is none of us want a

51
00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,959
Speaker 3: show that people just shouting outrageous opinions at each other.

52
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,840
Speaker 3: That's not what we're there for. So we work hard

53
00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,520
Speaker 3: to make sure that we're representing different viewpoints and that

54
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,920
Speaker 3: we disagree with each other, but respectful disagreement is our obsession,

55
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 3: and I think you're also setting a certain tone when

56
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 3: you do that. So as much as we have each

57
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 3: other's back in terms of as I think Mia said

58
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 3: earlier or Jesse said earlier, if you maybe something slipped

59
00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 3: out of your mouth that could be misconstrued, we're all

60
00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,040
Speaker 3: very good at catching that, as is our producer. And

61
00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,040
Speaker 3: the show goes through two sets of ears before it

62
00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 3: goes out. But we also we're not interested in just

63
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,480
Speaker 3: stirring up culture wars. That's not the.

64
00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:08,240
Speaker 2: Oppisode that I'll avoid that if we can.

65
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,040
Speaker 4: I think that the fear for me has become and

66
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:17,160
Speaker 4: we had this discussion relatively recently. How do you still

67
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:22,480
Speaker 4: take how do you still take positions on things and

68
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:27,520
Speaker 4: reflect what women are talking about while not getting yourself canceled.

69
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,839
Speaker 4: If you are too worried about what people think, do

70
00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 4: not get into podcasting, because you can say the most

71
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,920
Speaker 4: innocuous things sometimes and be absolutely really rile people up,

72
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,160
Speaker 4: and you've just got to cop that. And often I'll

73
00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 4: say something and a producer will say, you know that

74
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,400
Speaker 4: might upset a few people, or that there's a group

75
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:51,919
Speaker 4: of people who are not going to be happy you

76
00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,200
Speaker 4: said that, and I'll have a think and go, it's

77
00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 4: worth saying. And I think that's a really hard thing

78
00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 4: to do, because I've seen a lot of podcasts where

79
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,080
Speaker 4: people share opinions and perspectives go in the direction of

80
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,120
Speaker 4: you've actually spent forty minutes not saying anything because you're

81
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,200
Speaker 4: so terrified of what the response will be. So that's

82
00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,600
Speaker 4: still important to have those debates. And I think often

83
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 4: in the planning meeting will go. I'll say this, but

84
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,120
Speaker 4: I think we also have to present X opinion in

85
00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,640
Speaker 4: order for this to be a well rounded, informative conversation,

86
00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 4: and we'll carefully produce that. But yeah, I'm aware of that.

87
00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,520
Speaker 4: But there are some issues that I go, I feel

88
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 4: passionately about this. I believe in it. If I get

89
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 4: one hundred hate emails, it will have been worth it.

90
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 3: But I think that that's the key is is it

91
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,039
Speaker 3: worth it and it's not worth it just so that

92
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 3: you feel like you said something clever, you know what

93
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,120
Speaker 3: I mean? And Jesse is very is smart enough as

94
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 3: we all are, to kind of being able to self

95
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 3: curate those issues to a point where you're like, this is,

96
00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 3: as you say, a conversation worth having. This is just

97
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:00,480
Speaker 3: poke a bear.

98
00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 1: If you liked this little extract, you might want to

99
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: check out my full interview with Maya, Holly and Jesse,

100
00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 1: which you can find in the link in the show notes,

101
00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 1: because my goodness, it was such a treat speaking to

102
00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,240
Speaker 1: them given they host my favorite podcast, Mamma Mia Out

103
00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,120
Speaker 1: Loud and going behind the scenes into how it gets

104
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 1: made with something I found fascinating. If you're looking for

105
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 1: more tips to improve the way that you work. I

106
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,040
Speaker 1: write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things

107
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 1: that I've discovered that helped me work better, ranging from

108
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,520
Speaker 1: software and gadgets that I'm loving through to interesting research findings.

109
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,560
Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Howiwork dot co.

110
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,719
Speaker 1: That's how I Work dot co. How I Work is

111
00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 1: produced by Inventium with production support from Dead Set Studios

112
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: and thank you to Matt Nimba who does the audio

113
00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,159
Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sound so much

114
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.