Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by e Safety, Australia's
Speaker 1: online safety regulator. Love shouldn't feel like control. If your
Speaker 1: partner pressures you to let them track you or demands
Speaker 1: constant updates, that's not care. In fact, it could be
Speaker 1: tech based coercive control. Trust your instincts. To learn about
Speaker 1: the warning signs of tech based coercive control, visit e
Speaker 1: safety dot gov dot AU forward slash Love isn't as always.
Speaker 1: This podcast has been produced independently with no editorial influence
Speaker 1: from e safety.
Speaker 2: Already and this this is the Daily This is the
Speaker 2: Daily OS. Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and
Speaker 2: welcome to the Daily OS. It's Sunday, the twenty fifth
Speaker 2: of May. I'm belief, It's Simon's I'm Sam Kazlowski. Over
Speaker 2: the past few years, there has been a growing conversation
Speaker 2: about coercive control in romantic relationships. Now, if you don't
Speaker 2: know what that is, we will get more into it today.
Speaker 2: But basically, it's a pattern of behavior that manipulates, intimidates
Speaker 2: or dominates another person. Just last year, New South Wales
Speaker 2: became the first state in Australia to criminalize coercive control.
Speaker 2: Shortly followed by Queensland. Now new research from E Safety
Speaker 2: has looked into how this is playing out on or
Speaker 2: even being fast tracked by technology. Essentially, they wanted to
Speaker 2: know what attitudes and behaviors have become normalized amongst younger
Speaker 2: generations who have grown up in the digital age that
Speaker 2: actually could be a red flag for coercive control. For example,
Speaker 2: how many people think it's normal and healthy to track
Speaker 2: their partner's location. Now, just a quick heads up before
Speaker 2: we get into it, Sam, As you would have heard
Speaker 2: at the start of this podcast, this episode is sponsored
Speaker 2: by e Safety, who produced the report that we will
Speaker 2: be talking about today, saying that though this episode has
Speaker 2: gone through our normal editorial processes that are independent of
Speaker 2: a safety So.
Speaker 1: Why don't we start super simple, Billy, let's start with
Speaker 1: really getting our heads around what is coercive control.
Speaker 2: So coercive control I briefly touched on it before, but
Speaker 2: it's when a person displays a pattern of controlling and
Speaker 2: manipulative behaviors in the context of a relationship. And I
Speaker 2: think one of the important words there is pattern.
Speaker 1: So we're not talking about like a single incident, No,
Speaker 1: it's about a whole series of behavior.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and think of it as like someone forcing or
Speaker 2: pressuring you to do certain things over a period of time,
Speaker 2: and typically that behavior is designed to isolate someone or
Speaker 2: to limit their autonomy, or even to question their own sanity.
Speaker 2: I feel like over the past couple of years there's
Speaker 2: been this big conversation about gas lighting, right, yeah, and
Speaker 2: that really ties in with coercive control. When you are
Speaker 2: literally questioning kind of what's real and what's not and
Speaker 2: you kind of feel like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1: And I guess sometimes whether you're the problem. Yes, definitely,
Speaker 1: and within coercive control, though there's so many different aspects of.
Speaker 2: It exactly, it's a really broad term, but there are
Speaker 2: some typical examples, So things like controlling finances, if just
Speaker 2: one person in the relationship is controlling all the finances
Speaker 2: and perhaps even blocks the other person from looking at
Speaker 2: the finances. There's things like monitoring behavior, making threats, or
Speaker 2: even something like insulting someone over time, or even something
Speaker 2: like controlling what they are wearing. It's things like that
Speaker 2: that build up over time and taken all together, can
Speaker 2: constitute coercive control.
Speaker 1: And the really diabolical thing I think about coercive control
Speaker 1: is that it's an invisible form of domestic violence in Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think sometimes people have to stop and think,
Speaker 2: what is someone caring for you and what is someone
Speaker 2: controlling you? And those are two very different things, and
Speaker 2: you have to you know, I think it can be
Speaker 2: tricky to navigate. There isn't a playbook that you get
Speaker 2: when you get into a relationship that's like this is
Speaker 2: someone controlling you or this is someone caring for you.
Speaker 1: But the research does show that it's becoming an increasingly
Speaker 1: more common part of abuse in romantic relationships.
Speaker 2: Yes, and it's actually one of the most common forms
Speaker 2: of how people experience abuse from a romantic partner. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, ten twenty years ago, the conversation about intimate
Speaker 2: partner violence was very limited to physical harm. But we
Speaker 2: know that that is only one part of domestic violence
Speaker 2: and how someone can experience abuse in an intimate relationship
Speaker 2: is a lot more broad than that.
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting point, that one, because I mean,
Speaker 1: you and I have worked in this newsroom for a
Speaker 1: long time and we've covered many stories where coercive control
Speaker 1: plays a very important role. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that's really stuck with me through those examples is that
Speaker 1: coercive control can often have a close link to physical violence.
Speaker 2: I think the way to think about it is that
Speaker 2: not all coercive control leads to physical harm, although again
Speaker 2: even without that, even without the physical harm, it is
Speaker 2: still absolutely a form of domestic violence on its own,
Speaker 2: on its own, yeah, definitely, But most physical violence does
Speaker 2: start with coercive control.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's important.
Speaker 2: Yes, And there's a mountain of evidence that shows that.
Speaker 1: And so the reason we're having this chat about it
Speaker 1: today is because of this new research, and the new
Speaker 1: research focuses on tech based coercive control. We're talked through,
Speaker 1: you know, an understanding of coercive control broadly. Let's zone
Speaker 1: in now on tech and the role that tech can play.
Speaker 1: How does that materialize?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is the idea of using technology again
Speaker 2: to control, manipulate, and isolate someone. Now, one of the
Speaker 2: key focuses of this from this report for me safety
Speaker 2: was focused on location tracking. Na, Sam, I'm sure you're
Speaker 2: probably familiar. I've find my friends.
Speaker 1: It's a big part of everybody's iPhone if they're on
Speaker 1: that phone user. I know there's another equivalent for Android
Speaker 1: as well, and you know it's essentially this whole new
Speaker 1: power that all phone carriers have to track people who
Speaker 1: are in their network, and there's obviously an opt in
Speaker 1: element to that process, but it's really built into a
Speaker 1: lot of the social apps as well. I mean, Snapchat
Speaker 1: is an interesting one to talk about.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, I think what's so interesting
Speaker 2: about this discussion is how normalized it has become. I
Speaker 2: remember when Snapchat first came out with I think it's
Speaker 2: called snap Friends or SnapMap SnapMap. When that first came out,
Speaker 2: I was at university and I just remember being shocked
Speaker 2: that this was a thing, and it felt like potentially
Speaker 2: a dangerous thing that so many people could suddenly track
Speaker 2: your location. And since then, I think it's no longer
Speaker 2: a shocking thing, like we have all become so normalized
Speaker 2: to the idea that people in your circle could have
Speaker 2: your location.
Speaker 1: And I do think it's important to mention that, I mean,
Speaker 1: from the perspective of the tech companies that are enabling
Speaker 1: these services, there are a lot of genuine uses for
Speaker 1: tracking technology. I mean there's stories about people being rescued
Speaker 1: if they're in the middle of a hike somewhere in
Speaker 1: regional Australia and that actually assists them. It's when the
Speaker 1: technology is misused by the users that's really concerning.
Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think it's something that you know a
Speaker 2: lot of parents, for example, would use for their kids.
Speaker 2: But again, I think it comes back to if you
Speaker 2: grow up in an age where you know the people
Speaker 2: close to you do have you on location, and then
Speaker 2: you enter a relationship and that person says that they
Speaker 2: would like to have you on location, it becomes a
Speaker 2: really tricky thing. And I think it's important for you
Speaker 2: to understand what your own personal boundaries are. Yeah, because
Speaker 2: again it's hard to even figure out what your personal
Speaker 2: boundaries are when it is so normal.
Speaker 1: As and how old you are, I mean, how old
Speaker 1: you are listening to this podcast and trying to understand
Speaker 1: this conversation and whether I guess you could say whether
Speaker 1: you're a map and location native and that's all you've
Speaker 1: ever known, or this is a new piece of technology
Speaker 1: that you're getting a head around. But I want to
Speaker 1: be super clear on something before we go any further.
Speaker 1: Is having a partner on a tracker classified as coercive control.
Speaker 2: No, it's definitely not that black and white. I think
Speaker 2: the point is, though it crosses a line when someone
Speaker 2: has an expectation, that's the key word. If there is
Speaker 2: an expectation for your partner to have you on tracker,
Speaker 2: that's when it kind of is a red flag for
Speaker 2: coercive control, right, And I think E Safety's key message
Speaker 2: here is that a respectful partner shouldn't or wouldn't expect
Speaker 2: to see your location twenty four to seven. Definitely. Maybe
Speaker 2: if you know you're going out for a night and
Speaker 2: you send your location for an hour, but I think, well.
Speaker 1: That's you volunteering your location.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's are you willingly and freely giving
Speaker 2: someone your location or do you feel pressure to do that?
Speaker 1: And do you think there's also an element as well
Speaker 1: about how the partner is using your location?
Speaker 2: Yes? Do you mean, like if they're constantly checking it
Speaker 2: or if it's only when you know you might be
Speaker 2: in need that they are then looking at it? Or
Speaker 2: is it a twenty four seven.
Speaker 1: Pattern of behavior? Are there text messages associated with the
Speaker 1: location and all that kind of stuff?
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing that is
Speaker 2: interesting is once you give your location indefinitely, it's quite
Speaker 2: hard to take that back. Yeah, interest that leads to
Speaker 2: quite a difficult conversation. I actually have a story about this.
Speaker 2: So I have used Find my Friends, and you know,
Speaker 2: someone from like ten years ago, a friend we shared
Speaker 2: our location indefinitely, I think, like on a night out
Speaker 2: or something. Yeah, And I'm not super close with that
Speaker 2: person anymore, definitely civil, no falling out. But now ten
Speaker 2: years later, I still have that person's location and whenever
Speaker 2: I see it, I'm like, I really should stop that.
Speaker 2: But if you stop it, I'm pretty sure sense of notification.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: And so because I haven't spoken to her in like
Speaker 2: two or three years, I'm like, I don't really want
Speaker 2: her to get a notification saying we've stopped sharing our location.
Speaker 2: And I think that's another interesting thing to talk about,
Speaker 2: is that once you share it, it can be hard
Speaker 2: or it can be awkward to take that back.
Speaker 1: And if that's how you're feeling about a friend that
Speaker 1: you have, you know, a very civil, really very civil,
Speaker 1: but distant relationship from, and you're feeling that awkwardness or
Speaker 1: perhaps some fear around cutting the cord of that location relationship,
Speaker 1: you can imagine that somebody in an intimate romantic relationship,
Speaker 1: even if it's a short one, that pressure really mounts Up.
Speaker 2: I have had that moment with a partner.
Speaker 1: How did you navigate it?
Speaker 2: I think as soon as you break up, you just
Speaker 2: have to immediately stop sharing the location. And I mean
Speaker 2: for me, at least, it was a very normal conversation
Speaker 2: to be like, obviously we wouldn't have each other on tracker.
Speaker 2: But I think since that has happened, it has made
Speaker 2: me think like, oh, that's a really hard thing to end,
Speaker 2: and once you give it over, it requires a conversation that,
Speaker 2: no doubt is uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: I think one observation that is just sticking with me
Speaker 1: is just how prevalent is with really young members of society.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking kind of sixteen to twenty year olds
Speaker 1: who perhaps have phones for the very first time. I mean,
Speaker 1: my brother is twenty one, so he's just out of
Speaker 1: that age group. All of his friends, like, you know,
Speaker 1: his snap map and his find my friend's maps are crowded.
Speaker 1: They're crowded with hundreds and hundreds of people.
Speaker 2: That is crazy.
Speaker 1: It's crazy, and it's you know, we're saying it's crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm thirty, your twenty six seven.
Speaker 2: Wait, do you actually think that your younger brother has
Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of people on find my Friends in stat.
Speaker 1: Map absolutely and makes decisions about where to go out
Speaker 1: on a night out based on where people are. And
Speaker 1: it's a whole nother language, and it's a whole nother
Speaker 1: way of understanding. And I want to be really careful here,
Speaker 1: not to just be grumpy old people and past judgment.
Speaker 1: This is an important part of their digital ecosystem. I
Speaker 1: can't believe I'm sounding old, dirty, but it's a really
Speaker 1: important conversation to be having. The rush is to jump
Speaker 1: to judgment. That's not what no, we want to do here.
Speaker 1: We want to have conversations about this and make sure
Speaker 1: that if somebody needs help that they can lean on
Speaker 1: people who might be older than them to have conversations,
Speaker 1: and the people who are older than them actually receive
Speaker 1: it openly.
Speaker 2: And I think this conversation is kind of about does
Speaker 2: society need an almost course correction, like have we gone
Speaker 2: too far one way? You know, if you're saying your
Speaker 2: younger brother has hundreds of people, do we need a
Speaker 2: course correction of being like, hold on a second, this
Speaker 2: has become way too normalize. We need to take a
Speaker 2: step back and be like is this right?
Speaker 1: And whether that's even possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Interesting, But I'm conscious that you and I have talked
Speaker 1: a lot here about anecdotes and personal experiences. What does
Speaker 1: the report actually say about this?
Speaker 2: So Ease Safety surveyed more than two thousand Australian adults
Speaker 2: and then they found, just like we've been talking about,
Speaker 2: that younger people are more likely to have the expectation
Speaker 2: that they should be able to track their partner. So
Speaker 2: amongst participants aged eighteen to twenty four, nearly one in
Speaker 2: five participants agreed that expecting to track a partner whenever
Speaker 2: they want is reasonable.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: So that's one in five young people believing they should
Speaker 2: be able to track their partner, But that was less
Speaker 2: common for participants of all ages, which just speaks to
Speaker 2: you know, younger people have grown up in this digital age.
Speaker 1: And is it mostly this tracking element of technology that
Speaker 1: dominates the discussion.
Speaker 2: There's definitely other ways. E Safety also looked into how
Speaker 2: many people expect to have your partner's passwords and codes.
Speaker 2: So it found that nearly one in four Australian surveys
Speaker 2: said it is reasonable to have that expectation.
Speaker 1: And with the rise and rise and rise of streaming services,
Speaker 1: phone passwords at passwords online shopping, that's becoming a greater
Speaker 1: part of relationship conversations. That's a really interesting point. But
Speaker 1: if we zoom out, why are we here, why do
Speaker 1: you think this has all been so normalized?
Speaker 2: Well, I think apart from what we've spoken about about
Speaker 2: young people growing up in the digital age, I think
Speaker 2: there's also a point that some people believe that by
Speaker 2: sharing passwords or by having someone on tracker, that they
Speaker 2: are able to build trust with that person.
Speaker 1: Right, you're an open book exactly.
Speaker 2: But I think the thing to think about is is
Speaker 2: that actually building trust or is not having those things,
Speaker 2: not having someone's location twenty four to seven, not having
Speaker 2: their password, actually building trust because you don't need access
Speaker 2: to those things to know that your partner is not
Speaker 2: doing anything wrong. Because that's kind of the reason why
Speaker 2: so many people do believe that they should have it,
Speaker 2: because they think there is potentially a possibility that your
Speaker 2: partner is doing something wrong. But by having access to
Speaker 2: those things, you're able to make sure that they're not.
Speaker 2: But is that actually control and not trust?
Speaker 1: It can all be so hard to navigate, Billy, and
Speaker 1: we're talking about something that's very personal, and this is
Speaker 1: not a regular news story, and so it's not a
Speaker 1: regular episode because there is such a personal aspect to this,
Speaker 1: that's right.
Speaker 2: I think it is so personal, and that's why we
Speaker 2: kind of need to ask ourselves certain questions, So things
Speaker 2: like am I creating my own personal boundaries without anyone
Speaker 2: influencing what that is? And you know, just like so
Speaker 2: many aspects of intimate relationship, that's up to you what
Speaker 2: your boundaries are. I think another question though, is do
Speaker 2: I see and respect the boundaries of my partner? You know,
Speaker 2: like if my partner tells me what their boundaries are,
Speaker 2: do I then accept that, have a conversation about it,
Speaker 2: but then not pressure them to try to change those boundaries.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to kind of take in, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure that people listening are thinking about how this
Speaker 1: conversation fits in with a relationship that they might be
Speaker 1: in or that might know about with somebody that they
Speaker 1: know and love, and it's a really important conversation to have.
Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, I think that you've done
Speaker 1: a wonderful job in trying to just help us understand
Speaker 1: that this is not simple, this is not black and white,
Speaker 1: but the worst thing that we can be doing is
Speaker 1: not having this conversation definitely, so thank you for that.
Speaker 1: Thank you, and we'll be back again tomorrow with another
Speaker 1: episode of The Daily Os. Until then, have a wonderful Sunday.
Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda
Speaker 3: Bunjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily Os acknowledges
Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the
Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres
Speaker 3: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the
Speaker 3: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.
Speaker 1: Nearly one in five young adults think it's okay to
Speaker 1: track their partner whenever they want. But that's not love,
Speaker 1: that's a red flag. New research, which from e Safety
Speaker 1: shows that many controlling behaviors in relationships, like constant tracking,
Speaker 1: demanding passwords, or expecting instant replies to NonStop texts a
Speaker 1: scene is normal or even caring, but these can be
Speaker 1: signs of tech based coercive control, a pattern of manipulation
Speaker 1: that can escalate into serious harm. Respectful relationships are built
Speaker 1: on trust and consent, not control. Talk about your digital
Speaker 1: boundaries and if something doesn't feel right, trust your instincts
Speaker 1: or speak to someone who knows you and what's important
Speaker 1: to you. To learn about the warning signs of tech
Speaker 1: based coercive control, visit e safety dot dot au slash
Speaker 1: love isn't. If you've experienced abuse or violence from a partner,
Speaker 1: call one eight hundred respect for free confidential advice.