1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Today's episode is brought to you by e Safety, Australia's 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: online safety regulator. Love shouldn't feel like control. If your 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: partner pressures you to let them track you or demands 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: constant updates, that's not care. In fact, it could be 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: tech based coercive control. Trust your instincts. To learn about 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: the warning signs of tech based coercive control, visit e 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: safety dot gov dot AU forward slash Love isn't as always. 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: This podcast has been produced independently with no editorial influence 9 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 1: from e safety. 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 2: Already and this this is the Daily This is the 11 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: Daily OS. Oh now it makes sense. Good morning and 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: welcome to the Daily OS. It's Sunday, the twenty fifth 13 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: of May. I'm belief, It's Simon's I'm Sam Kazlowski. Over 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 2: the past few years, there has been a growing conversation 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 2: about coercive control in romantic relationships. Now, if you don't 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 2: know what that is, we will get more into it today. 17 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 2: But basically, it's a pattern of behavior that manipulates, intimidates 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: or dominates another person. Just last year, New South Wales 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 2: became the first state in Australia to criminalize coercive control. 20 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: Shortly followed by Queensland. Now new research from E Safety 21 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: has looked into how this is playing out on or 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 2: even being fast tracked by technology. Essentially, they wanted to 23 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: know what attitudes and behaviors have become normalized amongst younger 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: generations who have grown up in the digital age that 25 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: actually could be a red flag for coercive control. For example, 26 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 2: how many people think it's normal and healthy to track 27 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: their partner's location. Now, just a quick heads up before 28 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: we get into it, Sam, As you would have heard 29 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: at the start of this podcast, this episode is sponsored 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 2: by e Safety, who produced the report that we will 31 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: be talking about today, saying that though this episode has 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 2: gone through our normal editorial processes that are independent of 33 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: a safety So. 34 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: Why don't we start super simple, Billy, let's start with 35 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: really getting our heads around what is coercive control. 36 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 2: So coercive control I briefly touched on it before, but 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 2: it's when a person displays a pattern of controlling and 38 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: manipulative behaviors in the context of a relationship. And I 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: think one of the important words there is pattern. 40 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: So we're not talking about like a single incident, No, 41 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: it's about a whole series of behavior. 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 2: Exactly, and think of it as like someone forcing or 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 2: pressuring you to do certain things over a period of time, 44 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: and typically that behavior is designed to isolate someone or 45 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 2: to limit their autonomy, or even to question their own sanity. 46 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,239 Speaker 2: I feel like over the past couple of years there's 47 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: been this big conversation about gas lighting, right, yeah, and 48 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,920 Speaker 2: that really ties in with coercive control. When you are 49 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: literally questioning kind of what's real and what's not and 50 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: you kind of feel like you're going crazy. 51 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: And I guess sometimes whether you're the problem. Yes, definitely, 52 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: and within coercive control, though there's so many different aspects of. 53 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: It exactly, it's a really broad term, but there are 54 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: some typical examples, So things like controlling finances, if just 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: one person in the relationship is controlling all the finances 56 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: and perhaps even blocks the other person from looking at 57 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:24,799 Speaker 2: the finances. There's things like monitoring behavior, making threats, or 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: even something like insulting someone over time, or even something 59 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: like controlling what they are wearing. It's things like that 60 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 2: that build up over time and taken all together, can 61 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: constitute coercive control. 62 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: And the really diabolical thing I think about coercive control 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: is that it's an invisible form of domestic violence in Australia. 64 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think sometimes people have to stop and think, 65 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: what is someone caring for you and what is someone 66 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 2: controlling you? And those are two very different things, and 67 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: you have to you know, I think it can be 68 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,839 Speaker 2: tricky to navigate. There isn't a playbook that you get 69 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: when you get into a relationship that's like this is 70 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: someone controlling you or this is someone caring for you. 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: But the research does show that it's becoming an increasingly 72 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,119 Speaker 1: more common part of abuse in romantic relationships. 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: Yes, and it's actually one of the most common forms 74 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: of how people experience abuse from a romantic partner. I think, 75 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 2: you know, ten twenty years ago, the conversation about intimate 76 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,560 Speaker 2: partner violence was very limited to physical harm. But we 77 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: know that that is only one part of domestic violence 78 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: and how someone can experience abuse in an intimate relationship 79 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,160 Speaker 2: is a lot more broad than that. 80 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: It's a really interesting point, that one, because I mean, 81 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: you and I have worked in this newsroom for a 82 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: long time and we've covered many stories where coercive control 83 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: plays a very important role. And one of the things 84 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: that's really stuck with me through those examples is that 85 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: coercive control can often have a close link to physical violence. 86 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: I think the way to think about it is that 87 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: not all coercive control leads to physical harm, although again 88 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: even without that, even without the physical harm, it is 89 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 2: still absolutely a form of domestic violence on its own, 90 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 2: on its own, yeah, definitely, But most physical violence does 91 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: start with coercive control. 92 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: Okay, that's important. 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,919 Speaker 2: Yes, And there's a mountain of evidence that shows that. 94 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: And so the reason we're having this chat about it 95 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: today is because of this new research, and the new 96 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: research focuses on tech based coercive control. We're talked through, 97 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, an understanding of coercive control broadly. Let's zone 98 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: in now on tech and the role that tech can play. 99 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: How does that materialize? 100 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is the idea of using technology again 101 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: to control, manipulate, and isolate someone. Now, one of the 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: key focuses of this from this report for me safety 103 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: was focused on location tracking. Na, Sam, I'm sure you're 104 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: probably familiar. I've find my friends. 105 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: It's a big part of everybody's iPhone if they're on 106 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: that phone user. I know there's another equivalent for Android 107 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: as well, and you know it's essentially this whole new 108 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: power that all phone carriers have to track people who 109 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: are in their network, and there's obviously an opt in 110 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: element to that process, but it's really built into a 111 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,600 Speaker 1: lot of the social apps as well. I mean, Snapchat 112 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: is an interesting one to talk about. 113 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: I was going to say, I think what's so interesting 114 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: about this discussion is how normalized it has become. I 115 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 2: remember when Snapchat first came out with I think it's 116 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: called snap Friends or SnapMap SnapMap. When that first came out, 117 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: I was at university and I just remember being shocked 118 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 2: that this was a thing, and it felt like potentially 119 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: a dangerous thing that so many people could suddenly track 120 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 2: your location. And since then, I think it's no longer 121 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: a shocking thing, like we have all become so normalized 122 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: to the idea that people in your circle could have 123 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: your location. 124 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: And I do think it's important to mention that, I mean, 125 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: from the perspective of the tech companies that are enabling 126 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: these services, there are a lot of genuine uses for 127 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: tracking technology. I mean there's stories about people being rescued 128 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: if they're in the middle of a hike somewhere in 129 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: regional Australia and that actually assists them. It's when the 130 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: technology is misused by the users that's really concerning. 131 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: Definitely, And I think it's something that you know a 132 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 2: lot of parents, for example, would use for their kids. 133 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: But again, I think it comes back to if you 134 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: grow up in an age where you know the people 135 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: close to you do have you on location, and then 136 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: you enter a relationship and that person says that they 137 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: would like to have you on location, it becomes a 138 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: really tricky thing. And I think it's important for you 139 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 2: to understand what your own personal boundaries are. Yeah, because 140 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 2: again it's hard to even figure out what your personal 141 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: boundaries are when it is so normal. 142 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: As and how old you are, I mean, how old 143 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: you are listening to this podcast and trying to understand 144 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: this conversation and whether I guess you could say whether 145 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 1: you're a map and location native and that's all you've 146 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: ever known, or this is a new piece of technology 147 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: that you're getting a head around. But I want to 148 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: be super clear on something before we go any further. 149 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: Is having a partner on a tracker classified as coercive control. 150 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: No, it's definitely not that black and white. I think 151 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: the point is, though it crosses a line when someone 152 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 2: has an expectation, that's the key word. If there is 153 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: an expectation for your partner to have you on tracker, 154 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 2: that's when it kind of is a red flag for 155 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: coercive control, right, And I think E Safety's key message 156 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 2: here is that a respectful partner shouldn't or wouldn't expect 157 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: to see your location twenty four to seven. Definitely. Maybe 158 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 2: if you know you're going out for a night and 159 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 2: you send your location for an hour, but I think, well. 160 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: That's you volunteering your location. 161 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's are you willingly and freely giving 162 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: someone your location or do you feel pressure to do that? 163 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: And do you think there's also an element as well 164 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: about how the partner is using your location? 165 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: Yes? Do you mean, like if they're constantly checking it 166 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 2: or if it's only when you know you might be 167 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 2: in need that they are then looking at it? Or 168 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: is it a twenty four seven. 169 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: Pattern of behavior? Are there text messages associated with the 170 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: location and all that kind of stuff? 171 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. And I think the other thing that is 172 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 2: interesting is once you give your location indefinitely, it's quite 173 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: hard to take that back. Yeah, interest that leads to 174 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,839 Speaker 2: quite a difficult conversation. I actually have a story about this. 175 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 2: So I have used Find my Friends, and you know, 176 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: someone from like ten years ago, a friend we shared 177 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 2: our location indefinitely, I think, like on a night out 178 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 2: or something. Yeah, And I'm not super close with that 179 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 2: person anymore, definitely civil, no falling out. But now ten 180 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 2: years later, I still have that person's location and whenever 181 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: I see it, I'm like, I really should stop that. 182 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: But if you stop it, I'm pretty sure sense of notification. 183 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 184 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: Interesting. 185 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: And so because I haven't spoken to her in like 186 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 2: two or three years, I'm like, I don't really want 187 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: her to get a notification saying we've stopped sharing our location. 188 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 2: And I think that's another interesting thing to talk about, 189 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 2: is that once you share it, it can be hard 190 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 2: or it can be awkward to take that back. 191 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: And if that's how you're feeling about a friend that 192 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: you have, you know, a very civil, really very civil, 193 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: but distant relationship from, and you're feeling that awkwardness or 194 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: perhaps some fear around cutting the cord of that location relationship, 195 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,319 Speaker 1: you can imagine that somebody in an intimate romantic relationship, 196 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: even if it's a short one, that pressure really mounts Up. 197 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 2: I have had that moment with a partner. 198 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: How did you navigate it? 199 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: I think as soon as you break up, you just 200 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 2: have to immediately stop sharing the location. And I mean 201 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 2: for me, at least, it was a very normal conversation 202 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: to be like, obviously we wouldn't have each other on tracker. 203 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 2: But I think since that has happened, it has made 204 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: me think like, oh, that's a really hard thing to end, 205 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: and once you give it over, it requires a conversation that, 206 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 2: no doubt is uncomfortable. 207 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: I think one observation that is just sticking with me 208 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: is just how prevalent is with really young members of society. 209 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: And I'm talking kind of sixteen to twenty year olds 210 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,319 Speaker 1: who perhaps have phones for the very first time. I mean, 211 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: my brother is twenty one, so he's just out of 212 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: that age group. All of his friends, like, you know, 213 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: his snap map and his find my friend's maps are crowded. 214 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: They're crowded with hundreds and hundreds of people. 215 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: That is crazy. 216 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: It's crazy, and it's you know, we're saying it's crazy. 217 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm thirty, your twenty six seven. 218 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: Wait, do you actually think that your younger brother has 219 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 2: hundreds and hundreds of people on find my Friends in stat. 220 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: Map absolutely and makes decisions about where to go out 221 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: on a night out based on where people are. And 222 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: it's a whole nother language, and it's a whole nother 223 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: way of understanding. And I want to be really careful here, 224 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: not to just be grumpy old people and past judgment. 225 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: This is an important part of their digital ecosystem. I 226 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,719 Speaker 1: can't believe I'm sounding old, dirty, but it's a really 227 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: important conversation to be having. The rush is to jump 228 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: to judgment. That's not what no, we want to do here. 229 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: We want to have conversations about this and make sure 230 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: that if somebody needs help that they can lean on 231 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 1: people who might be older than them to have conversations, 232 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: and the people who are older than them actually receive 233 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 1: it openly. 234 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: And I think this conversation is kind of about does 235 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: society need an almost course correction, like have we gone 236 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 2: too far one way? You know, if you're saying your 237 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: younger brother has hundreds of people, do we need a 238 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: course correction of being like, hold on a second, this 239 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 2: has become way too normalize. We need to take a 240 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: step back and be like is this right? 241 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: And whether that's even possible. 242 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 243 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: Interesting, But I'm conscious that you and I have talked 244 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: a lot here about anecdotes and personal experiences. What does 245 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: the report actually say about this? 246 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 2: So Ease Safety surveyed more than two thousand Australian adults 247 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:01,840 Speaker 2: and then they found, just like we've been talking about, 248 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: that younger people are more likely to have the expectation 249 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,200 Speaker 2: that they should be able to track their partner. So 250 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 2: amongst participants aged eighteen to twenty four, nearly one in 251 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: five participants agreed that expecting to track a partner whenever 252 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: they want is reasonable. 253 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 3: Interesting. 254 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: So that's one in five young people believing they should 255 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: be able to track their partner, But that was less 256 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: common for participants of all ages, which just speaks to 257 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: you know, younger people have grown up in this digital age. 258 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: And is it mostly this tracking element of technology that 259 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: dominates the discussion. 260 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: There's definitely other ways. E Safety also looked into how 261 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: many people expect to have your partner's passwords and codes. 262 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 2: So it found that nearly one in four Australian surveys 263 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: said it is reasonable to have that expectation. 264 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: And with the rise and rise and rise of streaming services, 265 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: phone passwords at passwords online shopping, that's becoming a greater 266 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: part of relationship conversations. That's a really interesting point. But 267 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: if we zoom out, why are we here, why do 268 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: you think this has all been so normalized? 269 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: Well, I think apart from what we've spoken about about 270 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 2: young people growing up in the digital age, I think 271 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 2: there's also a point that some people believe that by 272 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: sharing passwords or by having someone on tracker, that they 273 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 2: are able to build trust with that person. 274 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: Right, you're an open book exactly. 275 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 2: But I think the thing to think about is is 276 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 2: that actually building trust or is not having those things, 277 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: not having someone's location twenty four to seven, not having 278 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: their password, actually building trust because you don't need access 279 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 2: to those things to know that your partner is not 280 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 2: doing anything wrong. Because that's kind of the reason why 281 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: so many people do believe that they should have it, 282 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: because they think there is potentially a possibility that your 283 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: partner is doing something wrong. But by having access to 284 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: those things, you're able to make sure that they're not. 285 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: But is that actually control and not trust? 286 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: It can all be so hard to navigate, Billy, and 287 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about something that's very personal, and this is 288 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: not a regular news story, and so it's not a 289 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: regular episode because there is such a personal aspect to this, 290 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: that's right. 291 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: I think it is so personal, and that's why we 292 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: kind of need to ask ourselves certain questions, So things 293 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 2: like am I creating my own personal boundaries without anyone 294 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 2: influencing what that is? And you know, just like so 295 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: many aspects of intimate relationship, that's up to you what 296 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 2: your boundaries are. I think another question though, is do 297 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 2: I see and respect the boundaries of my partner? You know, 298 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: like if my partner tells me what their boundaries are, 299 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: do I then accept that, have a conversation about it, 300 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 2: but then not pressure them to try to change those boundaries. 301 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to kind of take in, and 302 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm sure that people listening are thinking about how this 303 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: conversation fits in with a relationship that they might be 304 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: in or that might know about with somebody that they 305 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: know and love, and it's a really important conversation to have. 306 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, I think that you've done 307 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: a wonderful job in trying to just help us understand 308 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: that this is not simple, this is not black and white, 309 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: but the worst thing that we can be doing is 310 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: not having this conversation definitely, so thank you for that. 311 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: Thank you, and we'll be back again tomorrow with another 312 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: episode of The Daily Os. Until then, have a wonderful Sunday. 313 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 314 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: Bunjelung Kalkotin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily Os acknowledges 315 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 3: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 316 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 317 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 3: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 318 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 3: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 319 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: Nearly one in five young adults think it's okay to 320 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: track their partner whenever they want. But that's not love, 321 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: that's a red flag. New research, which from e Safety 322 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: shows that many controlling behaviors in relationships, like constant tracking, 323 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: demanding passwords, or expecting instant replies to NonStop texts a 324 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: scene is normal or even caring, but these can be 325 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 1: signs of tech based coercive control, a pattern of manipulation 326 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 1: that can escalate into serious harm. Respectful relationships are built 327 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: on trust and consent, not control. Talk about your digital 328 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 1: boundaries and if something doesn't feel right, trust your instincts 329 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: or speak to someone who knows you and what's important 330 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: to you. To learn about the warning signs of tech 331 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: based coercive control, visit e safety dot dot au slash 332 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: love isn't. If you've experienced abuse or violence from a partner, 333 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: call one eight hundred respect for free confidential advice.