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Speaker 1: I've said this many times on the podcast. I've written

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Speaker 1: about it in my books. Avoidance reinforces anxiety. When our

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Speaker 1: children are having a hard time and they avoid the

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Speaker 1: thing that's causing them difficulty, it can reinforce the anxiety

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Speaker 1: by making them feel better because they avoided it, hence

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Speaker 1: reinforcing the avoidance and making everything feel better. It's a

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Speaker 1: vicious circle when we want our children to be strong

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Speaker 1: and resilient but they're struggling. But sometimes avoidance is exactly

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Speaker 1: what you need because there's a certain threshold, and once

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Speaker 1: something causes a certain level of anxiety, we need to

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Speaker 1: go a lot more gently and find otherwise. In fact,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's completely reasonable to avoid things altogether. For example,

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of afraid of sharks. I have higher levels

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Speaker 1: of anxiety if there's a shark in the water, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to surf anymore. Avoidance reinforces the anxiety, but

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Speaker 1: that's a good thing because it's keeping me safe. Our

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Speaker 1: children sometimes feel like they are swimming with metaphorical sharks.

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Speaker 1: They want to get out of the water, but we

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Speaker 1: know that they're not sharks. They're friendly dolphins, and it's

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Speaker 1: our job to keep them swimming. Today on the Happy

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Speaker 1: Families podcast, we answer a tricky question from a mum

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Speaker 1: dealing with exactly that challenge.

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Speaker 2: Stay with us today what to do when.

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Speaker 1: Your child has anxiety and will not confront the demons

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Speaker 1: that are scaring them. Hello and welcome to the Happy

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Speaker 1: Famili's podcast, Real Parenting Solutions every day. It's Australia's most

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Speaker 1: downloaded parenting podcast. We are Justin and Kylie Colson and

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Speaker 1: if you're new to the pod, welcome. We're so glad

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Speaker 1: to have you along. We continue to see new people

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Speaker 1: coming on board and having a listen. We hope that

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Speaker 1: you'll stay. We hope that it makes your family happier.

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Speaker 1: Every Tuesday on the podcast, we answer your tricky questions

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Speaker 1: about family and relationships and wellbeing and screens and mental

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Speaker 1: health and discipline and all that stuff. If you would

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Speaker 1: like to submit a tricky question, we've got a really

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Speaker 1: simple system at Happy Families dot com dot a. You

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Speaker 1: You just scroll down to where it says podcasts, click

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Speaker 1: the record button.

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Speaker 2: And stay talking.

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Speaker 3: Like Samantha from Brisbane, my daughter said she doesn't like

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Speaker 3: being alone with her thoughts at night, so she plays

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Speaker 3: music to drown them out. How do I help her

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Speaker 3: learn how to deal with or direct her thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I really appreciate this question, Samantha from Brisbane. And

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Speaker 1: the reason for it is because avoidance is one of

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Speaker 1: those things where we feel uncomfortable and we just rather

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Speaker 1: not confront the scary dog that's barking at us. We

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Speaker 1: don't want to go up and put her hand up

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Speaker 1: there and let it sniff our hand and become familiar

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Speaker 1: with it, get closer. There is a lot of research

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Speaker 1: that shows that the best way to overcome anxiety is

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Speaker 1: to move towards rather than a way. So the anxious

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Speaker 1: response is to move away. The anxious response is to

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Speaker 1: flee or flight. But research seems to indicate that the

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Speaker 1: more we can move towards the thing that scares us,

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Speaker 1: the better having And that's the whole idea of exposure therapy,

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Speaker 1: right the person who's afraid of spiders, So then we

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Speaker 1: look at one in a book, and we have one

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Speaker 1: in ajar on the other side.

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Speaker 2: Of the room, and we move closer and closer.

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Speaker 1: The difficulty with something like this is we don't know

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Speaker 1: exactly what your daughter is worried about, firstly, and secondly,

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Speaker 1: exposure therapy is usually best conducted by somebody who has

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Speaker 1: the appropriate training. It's not great when a parent says, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're afraid of this, Well here, let's get your nice

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Speaker 1: and close to it really fast.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk.

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Speaker 1: About whether or not listening to music and avoiding what

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Speaker 1: could be going through your mind is effective or not.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing that I want to emphasize is

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Speaker 1: that listening to music and distracting yourself distraction is an

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Speaker 1: effective short term choice. Like sometimes when I'm really upset

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Speaker 1: with one of my children, or when I'm having a

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Speaker 1: bad day, I'll sit down and I'll watch some cycling

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Speaker 1: or some surfing on YouTube, or I'll play a game

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Speaker 1: on my iPad because.

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Speaker 2: The distraction is relief.

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Speaker 1: It feels like I get to just recalibrate my brain

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Speaker 1: and my physiology, my system.

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Speaker 4: But a distraction is something that you would do from

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Speaker 4: time to time correct as opposed just something that's happening

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Speaker 4: on a daily basis, because we're avoiding what's actually really

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Speaker 4: going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why I say it's an effective short

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Speaker 1: term choice. But the drawbacks are it should never be

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Speaker 1: a long term choice, and having music on it at nighttime

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Speaker 1: potentially impacts lost sleep ability to be peaceful means more

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Speaker 1: tiredness tomorrow, which could be associated with even greater anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and it does make avoidance the primary coping strategy. So

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Speaker 1: I would suggest that there's other stuff we can do here,

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Speaker 1: one thing that you I'm just I'm stumbling around here

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Speaker 1: because I'm going to sound a little bit woo woo.

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Speaker 4: No, I think it's not that you're going to sound

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Speaker 4: woo woo. I think it's that you have to acknowledge

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Speaker 4: that I was right. That's what I think the problem is.

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Speaker 1: All right, So essential oils, I'm just going to say it.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to say the word. No, I don't

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Speaker 1: sell them. No, we're not trying to flog anything here,

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Speaker 1: because anything with network marketing kind of get some people's

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Speaker 1: hair standing on end. But we have found essential oils

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Speaker 1: to be incredibly effective, and I've shifted on it completely.

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Speaker 2: Don't terror anyone. Oh gosh, there is actually research.

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Speaker 1: You don't hear about it much, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: because of the connotation and the woo woness. But once

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Speaker 1: upon a time nobody talked about mind from us meditation

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Speaker 1: either because it was too woo wu. And now it's

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Speaker 1: a central pillar of well being. Research, and I think.

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Speaker 2: I really do believe.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I just picked up a book recently by

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Speaker 1: Ethan Cross from.

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Speaker 4: A unifor of Ethan says it, then it must be

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Speaker 4: true the University.

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Speaker 1: Of Michigan, and he runs the emotional control Emotion Control

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Speaker 1: Lab at Michigan University, and even he's talking about how

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Speaker 1: using fragrances can be anxiety reducing.

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Speaker 2: So the research evidence is there. Now.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, we need to talk about some other ones. Let's

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Speaker 1: do that after the break. We're gonna get a little

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Speaker 1: bit loser.

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Speaker 4: I was going to say my thing.

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Speaker 1: Oh sorry, anyway, that's me just getting it out there

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Speaker 1: and sat that it could be helpful.

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Speaker 4: Well, I have a few extras and these were really

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Speaker 4: beneficial to me as a teenager. Right, So, I think

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Speaker 4: one of the most important things to do when our

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Speaker 4: kids are struggling is to actually take time in that

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Speaker 4: quiet space to sit with them. And if they're not

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Speaker 4: open or willing to chat about what's actually going on,

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Speaker 4: they might not even know what's going on. One of

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Speaker 4: the best things I think we can do is point

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Speaker 4: them to gratitude and just having a few moments each

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Speaker 4: night where we can sit together and talk about the

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Speaker 4: things that we're grateful for. It changes the mental construct

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Speaker 4: that our children then fall asleep to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'm just going to put one gentle caveat

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Speaker 1: in there, and that is that if you have a

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Speaker 1: child who is highly elevated emotionally, that's not the time

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Speaker 1: to say if you just think of some things you're

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Speaker 1: grateful for, you'll feel better.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, that's not what I was suggesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got to be in a different context altogether.

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Speaker 1: We're just talking about what's good in our old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So, whether you're religious or not, you have a prayer

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Speaker 4: with each other, or or it's just about quiet time.

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Speaker 4: It's just about connection. What are you grateful for today?

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Speaker 4: And if they're struggling, you could share the things that

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Speaker 4: you're grateful for the other thing that I think is

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Speaker 4: really important. She doesn't want to sit with her feelings, right.

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Speaker 4: The problem we have is when they're inside, they're trapped

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Speaker 4: and they just go around. A friend talk to me

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Speaker 4: about the monkey brain literally just going around in this

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Speaker 4: kind of just whirlwind of thought and we can't actually

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Speaker 4: put words around it. And so she taught me to

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Speaker 4: just do what we call a thought download. Literally there's

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Speaker 4: no filter to it.

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Speaker 2: It's just just just.

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Speaker 4: Journal and white. And as a child, I used to

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Speaker 4: do this all the time. Didn't realize it was a thing,

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Speaker 4: but I literally I read my journals now and think,

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Speaker 4: poor person who has to read this in one hundred

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Speaker 4: years time, because it was literally.

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Speaker 2: Poor little Kylie.

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Speaker 4: If there wasn't anything scary, it was just I wrote

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Speaker 4: everything and I couldn't actually go to sleep until I'd

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Speaker 4: done it. But I think that that was a really

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Speaker 4: important part of my progression as a teenager.

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Speaker 2: All right, so quick summary.

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Speaker 1: We've got music can be effective, we've got the woo

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Speaker 1: woo essential oils, we've got gratitude, and we've got a

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Speaker 1: journal emotional dump of sorts. I just want to quickly

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Speaker 1: highlight that whole getting it out thing. The default mode

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Speaker 1: network is part of your brain. Oh several components of

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Speaker 1: your brain that switch on when all the screens and

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Speaker 1: everything else switches off. And it's really important for kids

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Speaker 1: to figure out who they are that their default mode

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Speaker 1: network is active. Unfortunately, too many kids today have suppressed

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Speaker 1: default mode networks because their brains are always fixed on

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Speaker 1: screens and they never get to do the inner work

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Speaker 1: and the deep thinking that's necessary to figure out who

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Speaker 1: you are and what your life is about and find

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Speaker 1: meaning and purpose and so on. That was a lot

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Speaker 1: to say this. Sometimes kids have an overactive and maladaptive

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Speaker 1: default mode network, and it sounds like Samantha's daughter is

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Speaker 1: in that boat. So where we really that's where the

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Speaker 1: rumination comes in. The default mode network kicks in and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't know how to apply the brakes to unhealthy

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Speaker 1: and maladaptive thoughts, and so all of these strategies are

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Speaker 1: designed to do that. I've got three more quite psychologically

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Speaker 1: oriented ones right after the break. Okay, Kylie, we've got

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Speaker 1: a list of regulation tools. It's quite solid, quite solid,

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Speaker 1: quite solid.

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Speaker 4: I was gonna say, is that another word? I haven't

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Speaker 4: heard that way?

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Speaker 2: No, it's quite solid. Let me say that again. Oh

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Speaker 2: my good. We've got a salad list. We've got a

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Speaker 2: list of.

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Speaker 1: Now, I just want to emphasize we're not trying to

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Speaker 1: eliminate difficult thoughts. What we're trying to do is have

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Speaker 1: a healthy relationship with them. So three more ideas that

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Speaker 1: will be helpful here.

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Speaker 2: The first is.

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Speaker 1: To normalize and validate the experience. So when your daughter

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Speaker 1: is experiencing these really big negative, horrible thoughts. We don't

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Speaker 1: have to fix it. We just want to say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: sometimes being alone with racing thoughts is pretty uncomfortable, isn't it,

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Speaker 1: And that will move us through and help to.

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Speaker 2: Regulate those skills better.

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Speaker 1: Anxiety often peaks at night because we're in the dark

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Speaker 1: and distractions.

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Speaker 2: Aren't there anymore.

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Speaker 1: So I think by normalizing it by literally saying to

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Speaker 1: your daughter, this is normal, a lot of people struggle

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Speaker 1: with nighttime thoughts. We're not trying to eliminate the discomfort.

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Speaker 1: We're trying to build tolerance for it. In the same

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Speaker 1: way that when I'm doing my breathing exercises, because I

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Speaker 1: like to hold my breath for a long periods of

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Speaker 1: time with free diving, I want to build up my

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Speaker 1: tolerance for CO two in my blood. We don't you know,

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Speaker 1: when you hold your breath and you want to breathe,

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Speaker 1: it's not because you need oxygen. It's because you need

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Speaker 1: to get rid of the CO two. And so by

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Speaker 1: holding my breath for a longer periods of time, I'm

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Speaker 1: just building up that CO two tolerance. It's the same

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Speaker 1: at nighttime in bed. We want to build up our

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Speaker 1: tolerance for the discomfort. Around some of our thoughts, recognize

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Speaker 1: that it's normal and recognize.

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Speaker 2: That good thoughts arrive as well.

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Speaker 1: Second one that I've got is that we want to

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Speaker 1: build a what would I call it a gradual tolerance toolkit.

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Speaker 1: So instead of taking away the music entirely, I'd be

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Speaker 1: working collaboratively to come up with other options. Maybe it's

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Speaker 1: starting with music that gradually becomes quieter and more calming,

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Speaker 1: and then experiment with other.

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Speaker 4: Maybe you could add meditation to it. So yes, there's

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Speaker 4: a form of music in the background, but it's not

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Speaker 4: the main thing. Starting to train her thoughts to think differently,

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Speaker 4: or nature sounds.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I always joke about how my mum used

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Speaker 1: to make us listen to Tonio kind of CDs that

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Speaker 1: she brought from the post office when I loved that.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember those with that kids with all the

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Speaker 1: rivers and the birds chirping and the waves crashing on

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Speaker 1: the ocean. Mum used to be into deepat Choprah and

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Speaker 1: Stuart Wilde and Anthony Robbins, all those people. And I

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Speaker 1: just think involving her in creating these solutions rather than

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Speaker 1: imposing them one other things would help you feel calm.

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Speaker 1: What would you like to try that kind of discussion,

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Speaker 1: not in the moment, but out of the moment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, having a bath with Ebsence salts and using magnesium

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Speaker 4: to kind of help calm touch. I don't think we

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Speaker 4: put enough emphasis on the empert touch and how important

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Speaker 4: that is to helping co regulate.

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Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep.

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Speaker 1: And as much as I want to say this could

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Speaker 1: be very serious and professional help might be useful, I'd

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Speaker 1: be spending a little bit of time on all of

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Speaker 1: these solutions. First, There's one more that I'm going to

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Speaker 1: quickly throw in, and that is that we as parents

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Speaker 1: need to address the underlying thoughts, not just the symptoms.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure that Samantha's doing this. I just think

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Speaker 1: a lot of these nighttime struggles stem from unprocessed worries

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Speaker 1: and anxieties and fears that have occurred during the day.

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Speaker 1: So we want to create lots of opportunities where she's

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Speaker 1: able to process what's on her mind with us. We're

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Speaker 1: not trying to solve everything. We're just saying, hey, tell

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Speaker 1: me what's going on. I'm here for you. I just

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Speaker 1: want to I want to hear. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: leave you alone with your thoughts. Sometimes the racing thoughts

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Speaker 1: are less about the specific content and more about just

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Speaker 1: feeling overwhelmed and unsupported. I don't think that that's case

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Speaker 1: in Samantha's situation, but it's worth highlighting. Having those chats

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Speaker 1: in the car or going for a walk, spending time

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Speaker 1: in nature and doing the things that we've talked about

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Speaker 1: in that very comprehensive list I think will move the

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Speaker 1: needles substance. And if it doesn't, of course, the advice

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Speaker 1: is to go and get help, have a chat with

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Speaker 1: the GP, have a chat with the psychologist, a school counselor,

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Speaker 1: and see if there's something that you can do about it.

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Speaker 1: We really really hope, Samartha, that's been helpful, and for

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Speaker 1: any parent who's dealing with anxious kids, hopefully there's some

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Speaker 1: ideas there that are going to make a difference for you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for the question. If you have

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Speaker 1: a tricky question for us, jump online Happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot you just scroll down to where it says podcasts,

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Speaker 1: click the record.

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Speaker 2: Button and start talking.

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Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from you, or you can set

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Speaker 1: us a voice note to podcasts at happy families dot

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Speaker 1: com dot You The Happy Families Podcasts is produced by

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Speaker 1: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Mimhammonds provides research, admen and

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Speaker 1: other support, and if you would like more information and

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Speaker 1: resources to support your family better, visitors at happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com, dot you