1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,159 Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,239 Speaker 2: once answers now. Richard Ryan is a professor at the 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: Institute for Positive Psychology and Education at the Ustralian Catholic 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,960 Speaker 2: University and a research professor at the University of Rochester. 6 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 2: He's been a clinical psychologist for the well, I'm not 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: going to say how many years has been, but we'll 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 2: just say since the nineteen seventies, the author of more 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: publications than just about anybody on the planet. In fact, 10 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 2: my understanding, Professor Ryan, is that you are the most 11 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 2: cited psychology scholar on the planet right now. Is that correct? 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: The living I guess yeah, the most sarted living at 13 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: that as long as I'm alive, justin I think that's 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: probably true. 15 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 2: You're a big deal, is what I'm trying to say. 16 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: There's very few people on the planet who know what 17 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 2: you know, and in fact probably nobody, and it's just 18 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: such an honor, such an honor to be able to 19 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 2: spend some time with you. Thank you. Where does this 20 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: conversation find you right now? 21 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: I'm in Sydney. I'm in my neighbor's apartment because my 22 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: if he's doing yoga, and. 23 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: Well, you have a wonderful wife and great neighbors. That's great. 24 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 2: The reason I wanted to talk to you is because 25 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 2: the theory of motivation and well being that you have 26 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: developed since the nineteen seventies with your collaborator, Professor ed DC, 27 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 2: is called self determination theory, and it's really the very 28 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: foundation of everything that I teach. There's pretty much nothing 29 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: that I talk about that doesn't trace its way back 30 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 2: to self determination theory. And people often say, where do 31 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: these ideas come from? What's this really all about? This is, 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: I guess at the very heart of the stuff that 33 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: I teach and the stuff that I think makes the 34 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: biggest difference in families. So what I thought i'd do 35 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 2: today in this conversation is just ask you a bunch 36 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 2: of questions and get you to talk us through it 37 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: from a parenting point of view, because I mean, you're 38 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: you're the guy. You're the guy that I learned from, 39 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 2: and I would love to introduce other people to you. 40 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: I want to start by talking about something that's been 41 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 2: extremely topical in Australia in recent times, and that's the 42 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 2: issue of gendered violence. We've got we've got a tremendous 43 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: amount of noise rightly being made about men and boys 44 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: behaving extremely badly, hurting, not just hurting, destroying and even 45 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: killing women specifically. But men don't just do that to women, 46 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 2: They do it to one another, and they also do 47 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 2: it to themselves. We really have a massive problem when 48 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 2: it comes to men and violence, men and harm. Are 49 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 2: there any things that you think parents need to know 50 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 2: so that they can reduce the likelihood that their children 51 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: are going to grow up and be disrespectful, be hurtful, 52 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,679 Speaker 2: perform these denigrading acts on those around them. 53 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: First of wise, I just want to express my sadness 54 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: and my sympathies for everybody who's been a victim of 55 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: this violence. You know, here in Sydney, I think everybody's 56 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: still processing what happened at Bondai Junction and the murders 57 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 1: that happened there. And of course we've seen this not 58 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: just in Australia, but in many countries around the world. 59 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 1: There's a tremendous amount of violence against women and it's 60 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: a problem that it definitely needs addressing. When you look 61 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: at perpetrators of violence, you know, usually they have a 62 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: particular kind of background where they've experienced a lot of frustration, 63 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: a lot of rejection, a lot of themselves unhappiness in life. 64 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: This doesn't come from nowhere. What our research shows is 65 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: that aggression is usually a result of chronic kind of 66 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: frustration of basic psychological needs and so on the other 67 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: side of it, the people who don't commit violence are 68 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: people who've grown up in loving families, who felt the 69 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: support of other people, who have some place to go 70 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: when they are troubled with what's going on. So you know, 71 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: aggression is really the result of a lot of social 72 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: harms that have been done to people. For the most part. 73 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean there are cases, of course, of certain kinds 74 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: of disorders that might result in aggression that we can 75 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: talk about separately from that. But in terms of a 76 00:03:54,400 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: parenting perspective, aggressive violent people don't come typically from loving 77 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: homes where they've had a lot of support from their parents. 78 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: So you've just used a couple of terms that I 79 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 2: think are really important to describe. And I talk about 80 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: this a lot, so long time listeners will be familiar 81 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: with those terms, but I'd love to get it in 82 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: your words. You mentioned that those who come from loving 83 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: homes are raised in an environment where their basic psychological 84 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 2: needs are supported, and you've highlighted that those who do 85 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: harm are more likely to come from homes where those 86 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: basic psychological needs have not been supported. Could you describe 87 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: what you mean by basic psychological needs and also maybe 88 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: talk about the difference between needs support and need frustration. 89 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: Sure you know, in self termination theory, we argue that 90 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: across humanity, we all have some basic psychological needs in 91 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: the same way we have some basic physical needs, and 92 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: those needs include a need for a relatedness to feel 93 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: like we're connected and we belong in our social groups 94 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: that were loved and cared for, and that we're able 95 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: to care for others. So that's really the basic need 96 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: for relatedness. A need for confidence, which is a sense 97 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: in which you can feel mastery over the things that 98 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: are important in your life and not feel overly evaluated, criticized, 99 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 1: put down, or otherwise treated as a failure. So the 100 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 1: need for competence is really that sense of mastery that 101 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 1: everybody needs. And the need for autonomy, which is pretty 102 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: central to our theorizing, is the need to feel volational 103 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: in what you're doing, willing to do what you're doing. 104 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: And people who have autonomy are able to pursue things 105 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: that interest them and feel intrinsic motivation for many of 106 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: the activities they're engaged in. But also even when they're 107 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: not intrinsically motivated or enjoying activities, that they value what 108 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 1: they're doing, so they've internalized a set of values that 109 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 1: they really truly embrace and can pursue them. And the 110 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: opposite of autonomy is heateronomy, feeling controlled, pushed around, pressured, 111 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: otherwise not having volition over what you're doing. So when 112 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: people can experience autonomy, competence and relatedness, they feel whole 113 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,359 Speaker 1: and well and then they have the energy to be 114 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: constructive in life. But when they feel like they're autonomy 115 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: is thwarted, when they feel overly controlled, overly micromanaged, when 116 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: they feel rejected so that they like relatedness, or when 117 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: they feel really put down and overly evaluated in their 118 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 1: competence as crushed. And these are the things that really 119 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: hurt mental health. 120 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 2: If I parents, and I'm hearing this conversation, and I 121 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: don't want to make sure that my son grows up 122 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: to have a real sense that the support is at home. 123 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: What are the things that I'm doing wrong? What are 124 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: the things that you see most that parents are with 125 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,360 Speaker 2: the very gest of intentions actually overstepping and undermining rather 126 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: than supporting those basic psychological needs. 127 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: I'm not taking pinpoint a particular thing. What I would 128 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: say is, you know, you want to have a listening 129 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: ear for your children. You want to know what's going 130 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: on in their lives. You want to be in a 131 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: way that's not a valuative and judgmental, but really open 132 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: to trying to understand their experiences and then be able 133 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: to talk those through. You know, one of the things 134 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: I would want my child to be able to do 135 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: is to come home and talk to me about the 136 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: pressure they feel under from peers or the fears that 137 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: they have about, you know, being rejected by others. Not 138 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: so that I can solve that problem for them, but 139 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: they can feel like somebody understands what's going on for them. 140 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: So I think the first and most important thing, especially 141 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: in the kind of ages we're talking about, is a 142 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: listening ear is a sympathetic, empathic parent who's not trying 143 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: to control behavior as much as understand it and help 144 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: guide their kids in the right directions. And when I 145 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: say guidance, I mean that means, you know, providing some rationale, 146 00:07:37,720 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: providing some understanding and modeling the right values. You know. Again, 147 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: I think if you've seen young males who are victimizing women, 148 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, I want to look to the home and 149 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: see what are they seen as modeling, What are they 150 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: exposed to themselves, what kind of treatment goes on in 151 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: the interpersonal relationships that have been right in front of 152 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 1: them their whole lives? Again, I think these things come. 153 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: From Richard Ryan is a professor at the Institute for 154 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 3: Positive Psychology and Education at the Australian Catholic University and 155 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 3: a research professor at the University of Rochester. 156 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 2: Have you listened to Kyle and Jackie Ohe on the radio? 157 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: Colin Jackie o are Australia's number one radio duo. Their 158 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: content between six I am I already a friend. Between 159 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: six and seven o'clock in the morning, seven and eight 160 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, they regularly have conversations that are 161 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: deeply sexualized. They'll talk about and forgive me for being 162 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: so crass, but they'll talk literally about every kind of 163 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: sexual behavior you can. Last week, our executive producer for 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: this podcast sent me some of their content and they 165 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 2: were talking about completely explicit interactions with strangers on dance 166 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 2: floors in nightclubs, really sexualized, really objectified kind of conversations. 167 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: They are the number one breakfast duo in the country 168 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,959 Speaker 2: with more than a million daily listeners. I wonder if 169 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,959 Speaker 2: you can talk to me about what kind of impact 170 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: that sort of content or explicit content online, or the 171 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 2: degraded and increasingly coarse content that appears even in movies 172 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 2: that are oriented towards children and young people. Even if 173 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: kids come from a family or a home where their 174 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: basic psychological needs are generally well supported, how does that 175 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 2: impact their beliefs and their subsequent behaviors. But to what 176 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 2: degree can we blame media, the super pier, the Internet, Netflix, 177 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: the podcasts that they're explicit social media. Can we be 178 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 2: pointing the finger in that direction or does it really 179 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: just come back to values taught at home and the 180 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 2: internalization of those values full stop? End of story. 181 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: Well, you know, you bring up a lot of issues 182 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: kind of simultaneous there. But the first I would agree 183 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: with is that our children today are exposed to a 184 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of sexuality and explicitness that probably a lot of 185 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: us didn't have to experience. 186 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 2: When we were young. 187 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: We couldn't get access to the same kind of content 188 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: and it was prevented. And I do think that that 189 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: has harmful effects on children's development. They're saying things before 190 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: they have the cognitive, emotional, even physical capacities to really 191 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 1: understand what's going on there. So I do think that 192 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: that's harmful. And this makes it all the more important 193 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: that parents are in a place where they can talk 194 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: to their children about the issues that they're exposed to 195 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: and help give them a kind of guiding light through 196 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: the morass of information that comes their way. You know, first, 197 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 1: I think, you know, for my own children, for any parent, 198 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: I think we want to kind of minimize the exposure 199 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: to these things. And then that means sending some limits 200 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: around the use of media and what they get exposed to, 201 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: and doing that with the kind of compassion rationale for understanding. 202 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: Kids have curiosity, they want to go certain places, but 203 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: they're not ready for it yet, and that's some place 204 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 1: where I think parent limit setting comes into play. At 205 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: the same time that's exposure is going to happen because 206 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: of the pervasiveness that you speak of right there, which 207 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: is it's hard to get away from it. It's everywhere, 208 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: and that's something I think, you know, requires some parental 209 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: conversation and some you know, guidance with respect to and 210 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: particularly objectification of women. And this is something both for 211 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: girls and boys. You know, the being objectified, the playing 212 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: into the objectification for girls, the treatment and ideation around 213 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: girls and women for boys. These are things. These are 214 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: topics that I think are worth parents paying attention to 215 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 1: when they see it, addressing it, when they see the 216 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: exposure to it, like when you're watching a show together 217 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: and you see it. That's that's a good opportunity for conversation, 218 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: I think, and for discussion. 219 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:00,839 Speaker 2: I was having a couple of just the other day 220 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: with the young woman I think she's then maybe grade ten, fifteen, 221 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 2: sixteen years of age, and she was on TikTok, and 222 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: I asked her how she dealt with the coarseness and 223 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: the just all the language and all the explicit content 224 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: that comes through, Like I mean, so many of these 225 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 2: social media sites are just a sewer, and she said, 226 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: it's not that bad compared to what happens in the playground. 227 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 2: It seems that the environment we talk about basic psychological 228 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: needs and specifically that relatedness need feeling like you can 229 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: connect with others feeling like you belong on your matter 230 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 2: and yet a school playground the it doesn't feel like 231 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: it's a very safe place for a lot of people, 232 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 2: and it feels like there's a lot of push on 233 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: the part of others, mainly boys, to do more and 234 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 2: more extreme things to demonstrate their belonging, to demonstrate their 235 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: part of the crew to be in. I wonder if 236 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 2: you have any general reactions to this idea. I mean, 237 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 2: the more I think about it, the more I think 238 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 2: parenting is just we live in a postmodern world where 239 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: morality is not supposed to be a thing, but parenting 240 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: is fundamentally a moral endeavor, isn't it. 241 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: Well, I think teaching children morality is a part of parenting, 242 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: and I think it's essential that it begins, you know, 243 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: from the beginning, and it becomes even more complex as 244 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: kids get into adolescence and they're trying to shape in 245 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: a built identity. So I think parents have a strong 246 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: role in that. And you know, what you're talking about 247 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,319 Speaker 1: is for that young girl is having resilience with respect 248 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 1: to the things that come at her. And again, resilience 249 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 1: comes not from having a dis adversity before you, but 250 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: from having support so that you have some place to go, 251 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: someplace to discuss, some place to seem to receive empathy 252 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: for these things also, you know, because what you want 253 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 1: is for her, for others to be able to stand 254 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: up and say, I don't tolerate that kind of treatment. 255 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: I don't I don't want to be treated that way. 256 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: Make it uncool for the boys who do that. That's 257 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: that's a resilient response. But that takes some courage, and 258 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: that takes, you know, kind of character building that that 259 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: parents do help shape. 260 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: That was something that as soon as you said it, 261 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 2: I thought, how do we get our kids to that point? 262 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: I mean, it feels as though it's overwhelming that almost 263 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 2: all the boys are buying into this. 264 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: They're overwhelming, and I just I do want to I 265 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: want to correct you there at least a little bit. 266 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: Most boys are not super aggressive. 267 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, that's what I was going to say. 268 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 2: It feels it feels like it because there's so much 269 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: noise being made by this group overwhelmingly. We know that 270 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 2: many of them are consuming explicit content, but outside of that, 271 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 2: it just feels like it feels like it's a tsunami 272 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: of unhealthy masculinity. Rolling at all of our kids, including 273 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: the healthy ones, and how many healthy ones are out there, 274 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: It's hard to know because it's so hard to get 275 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: them to stand up and be courageous enough to say, hey, 276 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: that's not okay. We don't tolerate that here, because they 277 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: must be terrified that they're going to get absolutely rolled 278 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: by this wave of unhe healthy primarily boys that are 279 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: doing this to everybody around them. 280 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of modeling of toxic masculinity. 281 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: It's true. There's also modeling of mature and giving and 282 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: loving masculinity as well. We just want to make sure 283 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: that the preponderance that we're showing as men this ladder direction. 284 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: But you know, I think we hear about every negative event. 285 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: You know, we're exposed to news media that wants clicks, 286 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: that wants us to pay attention, and of course, the 287 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: more noxious the story, the more outrageous the behavior, the 288 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: more likely it's going to be on the news or 289 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: in the documentaries or in the morning show at breakfast, 290 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: because those people are trying to command attention, and these 291 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: things are attention grabbers. But that doesn't mean it's the 292 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: normative way in which people act. You know, I think 293 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: if you look at most interactions on the playground, they're 294 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: not all noxious, They're not all this kind of a sexual, 295 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: abusive stuff that we're talking about. Those things do happen, 296 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't be naive about that, but we can 297 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: characterize that that's the kind of normative behavior going on 298 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: with kids that you know, kids are not pounding each 299 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: other every day. Kids are not beating each other up 300 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: every day. Most kids are pretty social. They want to 301 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: be cooperative, they want to be kind to others. I 302 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: think that's the norm. But what we see in the 303 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: media is every kind of malevolence that the media can 304 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: dig up, find and put in our faces. 305 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the sort of thing that makes you think, 306 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 2: maybe maybe I should just turn the media off and 307 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: concentrate on what's happening in my living room. 308 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: I do, yeah, because I think most of us, if 309 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: we look more immediately, our kids tend to be good kids, 310 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: and we want to protect them as much as we can, 311 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: and we see these horrible things happening in the media. 312 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: It is terrifying to a parent saying, oh, look what 313 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: my kids exposed to every day. 314 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: Professor Richard Ryan is a professor at the Institute for 315 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: Positive Psychology and Education at the Australian Catholic University and 316 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: a research professor at the University of Rochester. I've got 317 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: so many of your books on my shelves and they're 318 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:04,199 Speaker 2: all the really big ones. They're the ones that are 319 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 2: like eight hundred pages or more. 320 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: I don't really apologize, and. 321 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: I've read most of them as well, and yet to 322 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 2: sit here and talk with you has just been such 323 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 2: a delight, and I really hope that the things that 324 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: we've talked about have have made a difference for your 325 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: parents who have been listening. Thank you for being so 326 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: so generous with your time and sharing what you've shared. 327 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: Happy we were chatting. 328 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: Thanks. The Happy Family podcast is produced by Justin Rawan 329 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 2: from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For 330 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: more information about making your family happier, please visit us 331 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: at Happy Families dot com dot au.