1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the technics 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: used by leading innovators to get so much out of 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. I'm an 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: organizational psychologist, the founder of innovation consultancy Inventium, and I'm 5 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. This 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: episode is another my favorite Tip episode. The title is 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip from 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: each of the interviews I conduct. So my guest today 9 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: is Doris Brett. Doctor Doris Brett, also known as Doris Imba. 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: My mum. I have known my mom well all my life, 11 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: and my dad, who does all the sound editing for 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: this podcast, actually suggested that my mum could make a 13 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: very interesting guest. Now I'm obviously biased that I thought 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 1: that my chat with my mum was a very interesting interview, 15 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: as is the extract that we'll be putting in today's show. So, 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: by way of background, as well as being my mum, 17 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Doris Brett has practiced as a ci Nicol psychologists for 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: nearly four decades and is also a multi award winning 19 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: poet and critically acclaimed memoirst and writer. Her books range 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: through various genres including therapeutic stories for children, fiction, memoir, 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,199 Speaker 1: and poetry. She even wrote a bread baking book back 22 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: in the eighties. Her latest book is The Sunday Story Club, 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: co written with Kerry Q about conversation being the hot 24 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: new conversation topic and it really taps into the global 25 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: movement towards reclaiming face to face, meaningful conversation and personal 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: stories rather than living our lives online. So my mum 27 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: is an amazing storyteller and in this extract from the 28 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: full interview she talks about how she works with stories 29 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: and how we can use them to reframe negative experiences. 30 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 2: Basically, I think that we all consist of stories. That's 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 2: how we understand our lives. We as human beings have 32 00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: an absolute drive to create meaning, and without meaning, we 33 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 2: have no way of understanding our lives, what we should do, 34 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 2: the context, how we should be responding. So we create 35 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 2: stories about every single experience, even though we're not conscious 36 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: of the stories. And neuroscientists have in fact referred to 37 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: the brain as story making machine. So the frame of 38 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: the story is what gives the story the meaning. If 39 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 2: you have an experience, for example, of not succeeding at 40 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: a task at work. There are different ways in which 41 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: you can create a story around that. But as you said, 42 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: one of the ways is I've failed, and that can 43 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: also mean to you I'm a loser. And the other 44 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: way of creating the frame is I didn't succeed at this, 45 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 2: but I learned a lot from it. I'm a learner. 46 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: And that framework gives you an entirely different way of 47 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: seeing both yourself and the task and the future, because 48 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: that's what the frame of a story does. It's an 49 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: orienting device, and it orients towards particular aspects of both 50 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: the experience and what it means for us in the future, 51 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: because we're always thinking about what our present experiences mean 52 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 2: for us in the future. 53 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so that's helpful, you know. When thinking about failure, 54 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: I guess something else that a lot of people struggle 55 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 3: with is procrastination, which I'd love you to talk about. 56 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: I guess what is the story that's going on there 57 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: for people potentially, and how can we framing that help, 58 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 3: you know when it comes to getting over procrastination being 59 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: more productive? For example? 60 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think the frame that we put around a 61 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 2: story basically is what we are directing our attention to 62 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: in the story. So it's a bit like being in 63 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 2: a dark room with a torch with a narrow beam. 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 2: We only see what we aim the torchat. So with procrastination, 65 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: let's say we've got a task that we have to 66 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: get done, and let's say it's a boring or repetitive task, 67 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 2: and we've been putting it off for that reason. What 68 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: we're doing in that case is focusing our torch on 69 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: the boring and repetitive part of doing the task. Another 70 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 2: frame that we can put around that story is focusing 71 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: on how we're going to feel when we've completed that 72 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: completed the task, which is virtuous and free. And if 73 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 2: we put that framework around the story, the way we 74 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: feel about the task changes. I'll get this done and 75 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: I'm going to feel great afterwards instead of oh no, 76 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 2: I don't want to get onto this. 77 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 3: That's helpful. And I think, like, I've heard you tell 78 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 3: lots of stories. I grew up as a child with 79 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: you telling me a lot of stories, very memorable stories, 80 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 3: And like, I'm curious, how do you construct a good story? 81 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 3: Because I know that you've studied storytelling in quite some depth. 82 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: I have studied storytelling in some depth, but that's mostly 83 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: because I just grew up loving mythology, and you know, 84 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: it was just my joy to read mythology from all 85 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: around the world. And there is a lot of wisdom 86 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: that is contained in those stories, and there's a reason 87 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: that they have lasted over centuries because they do contain wisdom. 88 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: And just Campbell, who is famous for exploring and writing 89 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: about comparative mythology and religion, is a wonderful person to 90 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 2: read if you want to get a sense of what 91 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: these stories, the folk tales and the mythology can give 92 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: to you. And one of his books is Caught the 93 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: Hero with a Thousand Faces, and what he did for 94 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: that book was he looked at the stories about heroes 95 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: over many cultures, through the ages, and he concluded that 96 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 2: there was an archetypal hero's journey. And it's a very 97 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: very interesting concept because in modern times we think of heroes, 98 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 2: we think of we call athletes heroes, and we think 99 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 2: of heroes as people who are talented or brave and 100 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 2: they do something and they just succeed. Whereas the classic 101 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 2: heroes journey that is repeated in country after country through 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 2: myth after myth and story after story, is that the 103 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: hero always experiences doubts and concerns about this quest, and 104 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: very typically the hero not only experiences doubts and fears, 105 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 2: but fails certainly at the first go before ultimately succeeding, 106 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: and that failure is an integral part of the journey 107 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 2: because the hero needs to gain the learning about himself 108 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: that comes from failing, and also needs to learn how 109 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 2: to continue with the quest with no certainty of success, 110 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: which is something that we would all benefit from hugely, 111 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: because I don't know of anyone where success is guaranteed 112 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: in any venture. 113 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Hello, there me again. I hope you liked the extract 114 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: from my chat with my mum, and for me, I 115 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: particularly liked what she said about reframing procrastination, which I 116 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: definitely suffer from at times, and I'm sure many listeners 117 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:16,680 Speaker 1: do as well. 118 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: So I hope that there. 119 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: Was something there in today's show that you can apply 120 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: to your own life if you're a bit of a procrastinator. 121 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: So that is it for today. If you like this excerpt, 122 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: you might want to listen to my full chat with 123 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 1: my Mum, which I linked to in the show notes. 124 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 3: And if you're enjoying. 125 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: How I work, why not recommend it to someone else 126 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: that you think would enjoy the show and get some 127 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: value from it. So if you have already done that, 128 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: thank you, and if you're going to do that today, 129 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: a big thank you as well. So that's it for 130 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: today and I'll see you next time.