1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,960 Speaker 1: Now on Friday, the Northern Territory Government announce the crackdown 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: on youth crime, expanding the list of offenses for which 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: youth must be sent to court, including driving stolen cars, 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:16,279 Speaker 1: hit and runs, breakings, serious harm, offending and assaults on 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: frontline workers. Youth charged with those crimes will no longer 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: be eligible for youth diversion. While the announcement's been welcomed 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: by many victims of crime, Justice Reform Initiative Executive Director 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: Sotiri has told The Northern Territory News that she believes 9 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: the COLP is putting politics above evidence based policy. Now, 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: Justice Reform Initiative Executive Director Mindy so Tiri joins me 11 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: on the line. Good morning to. 12 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: You, Mindy, Good morning Katie. 13 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: Lovely to have you on the show. Now. On Friday, 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: we know the Northern Territory Government announced this crackdown on 15 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: youth crime. It expands the list of offenses for which 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: youth must be sent to court. Do you think this 17 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: is a step in the right or wrong direction. 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 2: Look, it's a step in the wrong direction. And the 19 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: reason for that is, of course we need to take 20 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 2: crime seriously and of course people who commit crime should 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 2: be held accountable for their actions, and of course communities 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 2: should feel safe, and all communities have the right to 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 2: feel safe. But what the evidence actually shows us is 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,559 Speaker 2: that the threat of harsher penalties will do absolutely nothing 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: to reduce crime. And we also know that the use 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: of imprisonment will do nothing to reduce crime. So the 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 2: evidence is very clear that threatening longer or tougher sentences, 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 2: removing the tension of the large resort, introducing more restrictive 29 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: bail laws, none of those things keep the community safe. 30 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 2: And that's because none of those measures actually address the 31 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: causes of crime. And it also is the case because 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: any contact with the justice system is a risk factor, 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: that is, it increases the likelihood of offending, it increases 34 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: the likelihood of ongoing criminal justice system involvement. So we 35 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: know we can't imprison our way to a safer community. 36 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 2: We have to look at what the evidence says actually 37 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: does make a difference. 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,240 Speaker 1: So, Mindy, when you talk about diversion, what are some 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: of the programs that youth might undertake, some of the 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 1: things that may work better. 41 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: Well, there's a whole range of different kinds of diversion, 42 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 2: So there's lots of research, for instance, about pre charge 43 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: diversion models which use alternative police and alternative first responder models, 44 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: and some of those around Australia have been found to 45 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: lessen the likelihood of ongoing justice system involvement by close 46 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,839 Speaker 2: to sixty percent. There's pre charge as sorry this diversionary 47 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: processes at the point of court which can reduce contact 48 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: with the system. So in again and some jurisdictions in 49 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: Australia where there are alternative court models that divert kids 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: and adults, you see offending rates twenty five percent lower 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: than mainstream courts. There's a whole range of different diversion 52 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: programs at different touch points in the criminal justice system trajectory, 53 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 2: all of which, when they are properly resourced and properly 54 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: run and properly implemented, make a significant difference. The problem 55 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: that we've got in the Northern Territory and in lots 56 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: of places around Australia is we are spending billions of dollars, 57 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 2: more than seven billion dollars a year locking up adults 58 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 2: and kids around Australia on imprisonment which we know doesn't work, 59 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 2: and almost nothing on the kinds of programs that actually 60 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: have an evidence base albeit at a small scale at 61 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: this stage. 62 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: Are there any successful programs operating in the Northern Territory 63 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: at the moment? 64 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. We've actually outlined a bunch of those in 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 2: one of our reports, which is on our website, which 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: has called Alternatives to Incarceration in the Northern Territory, and 67 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: we point to a number of those, especially First Nations 68 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: community led programs, that are really making a difference. But 69 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: again often that is operating at a very small scale, 70 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: so it's not available to everybody who comes into contact 71 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: with the justice system. So what the Justice Reform Initiative 72 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: is saying, we recommended a three hundred million dollar investment 73 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: in the kinds of programs that work over four years, 74 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 2: because what we really need to see is a flip 75 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: in these policy settings so that we're investing and spending 76 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: much more money on the things that actually work rather 77 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 2: than on the failed prison respond And I guess that 78 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: what we can see in the Northern Territory is this 79 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 2: very politicized approach where of course both major parties compete 80 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 2: to see who can sound the toughest on crime, but 81 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: none of that actually works. If that works, the Northern 82 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: Territory would be one of the safest places in the world, 83 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 2: and certainly in Australia, because the Northern Territory incarcerrates at 84 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: a higher rate than anywhere else in Australia and in 85 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 2: fact is one of the highest incarcerators in the world. 86 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: If it worked, it would be incredibly so and sleally 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 2: that is not the case. 88 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: So I guess, mindy, because what we've seen obviously over 89 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: the last eight years is the former government had said 90 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: that they were wanting that generational change. They had pointed 91 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: to two different programs. They had said that really that 92 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: was their goal. But we've seen a real deterioration when 93 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: it comes to crime in the Northern Territory over the 94 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: last eight to ten years. With I think, you know, 95 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: across the board, people are well intentioned, but what we've 96 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: seen is a real deterioration. And unfortunately, you know, for 97 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people that listen to this show, some 98 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 1: of the behavior undertaken by youths hasn't sort of just 99 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,840 Speaker 1: been you know, low level crime like we've seen some 100 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: really horrendous stuff. 101 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, and again I would never want to minimize 102 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 2: that the reality of what it is like, especially for 103 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 2: victims of crime, and we do need to take it 104 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: very seriously, and I think that there have been some 105 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: really valiant attempts on all sides of politics to try 106 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: and to try and create safer communities. We have not 107 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: seen the targeted resourcing that is required. We also know 108 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: that the federal government has a role to play in this. 109 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: We know that the federal government needs to actually come 110 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: to the table when it comes to addressing those drivers 111 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 2: of why it is that people go to prison, because 112 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 2: it's not just about crime. It's around housing, it's around 113 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: alcohol and other drug use. We know that the vast 114 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 2: majority of children who end up in the prison system 115 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: actually have some form of disability, so it's about addressing 116 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: the disabilities. Again, none of this should be seen as 117 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: being soft on crime. This is just about being very 118 00:06:37,800 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 2: clear eyed about what is actually required if we want 119 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: to build safer communities, we can't keep relying on the 120 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: thing that has not worked, which is locking people up 121 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: and threatening harsher penalties. It's a form of insanity to 122 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: keep doing the same thing again and again and expecting 123 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 2: a different kind of consequence. We know it doesn't work. 124 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 2: There's a real opppportunity to the Northern Territory at this 125 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: moment in time to look at what the evidence actually. 126 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: Says Mindy, an anonymous parent getting in contact with us 127 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: this morning, saying, Katie, we had a thirteen year old 128 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: family member caught in a break and entry and was 129 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: put on youth diversion. It was nothing, Absolutely nothing happened, 130 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: not a thing. Youth diversion has been an epic failure, 131 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: says that message. I mean, why, like, this isn't the 132 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: first time I've heard this from families that really have 133 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: a will to try and get their kids on the 134 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: right track, and they're actually saying, well, they're not able to. 135 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: And quite often I've been told that the only time 136 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: that there is sort of programs available is once they 137 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: are incarcerated. 138 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and look I've heard that around Australia as well. 139 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: So the problem is that we need to resource and 140 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: we need to properly run youth diversion programs. So it's 141 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: tragic when they don't rate in the way they should. 142 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: But it certainly is not a valid option to look 143 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 2: at prison as if that's going to be the place 144 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: which is going to rehabilitate. We know that in Australia 145 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: eighty five percent of kids that walk out the prison 146 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: gates today are going to return within twelve months. That's 147 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: of sentenced kids. It's even higher of kids that are 148 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: sort of cycling through on remand we know that doesn't work. 149 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 2: We need to really look at what does work in 150 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: the community. And like I said, there are lots of 151 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: examples of things in Australia that really make a difference, 152 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 2: but they are funded often on the smell of loily rags. 153 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 2: So we need to really get our policy settings set 154 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: up in such a way that rather than say that 155 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: early intervention and prevention programs that we know can reduce 156 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 2: crime at a population level by up to fifty percent, 157 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 2: but that are not being funded. We need to really 158 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: get all of our leaders on all sides of politics 159 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 2: to get behind what the evidence says. We know that 160 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: the threat of harsher penalties isn't going to work. We 161 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: know that prison isn't going to work. We know that 162 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: the way that people commit crime is not usually done 163 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: in a very rational way. So kids aren't weighing up 164 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: the consequences. They're not thinking, Oh, of the CLP's changed 165 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: the legislation and the regulation, so I'm not going to 166 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: steal a car. That is not how crime is committed. 167 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 2: We need to look at what's happening developmentally for kids. 168 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 2: We need to look at what's happening in terms of 169 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: their brains, executive functioning. We need to and again this 170 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 2: is not to be soft on crime. This is just 171 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 2: to look at what actually the evidence says is going 172 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: to work. 173 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 1: Mindy, there's a lot of people messaging this morning. We 174 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: do have a lot of people that are victims of 175 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: crime that listen to this show. As I said earlier, 176 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: some of them are victims of pretty horrific incidents of 177 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: crime as well. I mean, what do you say to 178 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: those people listening this morning that are going, oh, come on, 179 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: this softly, softly approach is not going to work. 180 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, I absolutely get the frustration, and I have 181 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 2: to say, in my role, I speak to a lot 182 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: of victims of crime about the work that we're doing. 183 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I hear regularly from 184 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: victims is that they do not want what has happened 185 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 2: to them to happen to anybody else. And that is 186 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: a scene that is consistent you know, through many of 187 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: the victims that I speak to, many of the victims 188 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,559 Speaker 2: groups I've had contact with. We need to take crime seriously. 189 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,400 Speaker 2: But we also need to look at the fact that 190 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: eighty five percent of people that go to prison go 191 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: on to reoffend. Something isn't working. We need to look 192 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 2: at what is working in the community, and that is 193 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:35,599 Speaker 2: about taking crime seriously. 194 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: Mindy. I really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you 195 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: for giving us a different perspective. 196 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for your time, Ken, Thank you appreciate it.