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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the

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Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, when we are more open with our children from

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Speaker 2: a younger age, it actually benefits them as they get

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Speaker 2: older and they make safe for healthier decisions.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad.

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Speaker 2: Hello. This is doctor Justin Colson, the author of six

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Speaker 2: books about raising happy families and the founder of happy

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Speaker 2: Families dot com dot a you. I'm here with my

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Speaker 2: wife and co host and mum to our six daughters, Kylie,

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Speaker 2: and today we're speaking with somebody who is going to

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Speaker 2: help us to better understand all of this stuff that's

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Speaker 2: going on in the media at the moment, around our

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Speaker 2: federal politicians, around Schnell Kontos and her petition, the whole

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Speaker 2: consent and assault stuff.

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Speaker 3: Her name is.

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Speaker 2: Katrina Marson and Katrina works with the implementation of relationships

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Speaker 2: and sex education more broadly in schools, within and within

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Speaker 2: communities here in Australia. A quick note, by the way,

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Speaker 2: while we're not going to be having any explicit discussion,

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Speaker 2: some people might prefer that their children don't listen to

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Speaker 2: what we have to say. And Katrina, you have another

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Speaker 2: job working as a prosecutor in Canberra.

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Speaker 4: Thank you both so much for having me on. It's

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Speaker 4: a pleasure to be here. So I am a sexual

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Speaker 4: offensive prosecutor in my daily job in the Act. So

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Speaker 4: my work is primarily as a criminal lawyer, but I

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Speaker 4: have a very significant research interest in sexual violence prevention

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Speaker 4: and particularly the use of relationships and sexuality education as

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Speaker 4: a protective factor in safeguarding sexual wellbeing. And so I've

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Speaker 4: conducted a Churchill fellowship where I went to six countries

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Speaker 4: across Europe and North America looking at the implementation of

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Speaker 4: relationships and sex ed as a means of safeguarding sexual wellbeing.

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Speaker 4: And I brought back a lot of lessons from all

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Speaker 4: of those countries into how we might be able to

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Speaker 4: implement that here in this country as a means of

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Speaker 4: looking after for our young people.

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Speaker 3: In the media recently Katrina, a young girl, Chanelle Contos

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Speaker 3: has demanded that can send education be taught in our

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Speaker 3: school system? Why is it so important for this to

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Speaker 3: happen within the schools.

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Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and I think what we've

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Speaker 4: seen out of the petition that Msscontos has launched is

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Speaker 4: that just the sheer numbers of young people who are

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Speaker 4: drawing the connection between the deficiency and their education around

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Speaker 4: this stuff and the experiences of sexual violence and harassment

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Speaker 4: that they've had. So it's important that we see this

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Speaker 4: kind of education in schools for a number of reasons,

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Speaker 4: and the main one is that through schools you can

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Speaker 4: access most children in the school environment. The other thing

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Speaker 4: is we know that relationships and sexuality education is a

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Speaker 4: specialist subject. We need to make sure it's taught by

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Speaker 4: people who are trained to do so effectively, and we

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Speaker 4: need to make sure that what is being delivered is

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Speaker 4: borne out by the research and the evidence. And so

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Speaker 4: when you're doing it through the school system, there's a

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Speaker 4: capacity to make sure that the teachers are qualified to

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Speaker 4: deliver it and that we can and we can evaluate

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Speaker 4: and measure what in fact is being delivered and have

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Speaker 4: I guess a degree of quality assurance there.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking about needing to educate our children within

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Speaker 3: the school system. But what part do families play in this, Katrina,

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Speaker 3: I mean there needs to be some collaboration. I would

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Speaker 3: have thought for us to be able to really work

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Speaker 3: through this.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So I'm going to just quickly jump in before

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Speaker 2: you answer, Katrina, It's something that I hear time and

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Speaker 2: again on our Facebook page, particularly his parents are saying,

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Speaker 2: we don't want this to well. Actually, there's two schools

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Speaker 2: of thought. There's some people who are saying, I've got

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Speaker 2: no idea what to say. I need the schools to

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Speaker 2: come in. But then there are others who are saying,

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Speaker 2: teachers are not professionals and it's my job to teach

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Speaker 2: morality and sexuality and respect. It's not up to the schools.

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Speaker 2: It seems like this is a really polarizing kind of topics.

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Speaker 2: So to piggyback on Kylee's question about what role to

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Speaker 2: parents play, how do we actually get this balance right

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Speaker 2: where the state's stepping in and the parents are saying

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Speaker 2: yes or no to that.

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Speaker 4: It's a really good question, and there are actually a

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Speaker 4: number of aspects to the answer.

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Speaker 5: But to start off with Kylie, You're exactly right.

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Speaker 4: This is a matter that needs collaboration between the school

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Speaker 4: and the home. As I've said before, you can't silo

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Speaker 4: responsibility to either.

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Speaker 5: The school or the home. It needs to be both.

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Speaker 4: And that was really consistent in what I saw overseas

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Speaker 4: everywhere I went where they had successful relationships and sexuality

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Speaker 4: education programs. They were very committed to bringing in the

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Speaker 4: home and parents along with that conversation they were having

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Speaker 4: with the young people in the schools. And so, for example,

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Speaker 4: I would see programs where they would for every lesson

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Speaker 4: they gave to the students, there would be a complimentary

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Speaker 4: lesson or not session, I should say, for the parents beforehand,

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Speaker 4: so that parents would know what was going to be

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Speaker 4: discussed with their young people and what that conversation would

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Speaker 4: look like. And that's not just so that they can

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Speaker 4: have that input, which is of course important, but also

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Speaker 4: just as you've indicated, justin for those parents who need

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Speaker 4: assistance or want assistance in how to talk to their

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Speaker 4: young people about this, how to improve their own literacy

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Speaker 4: around these topics, how do know what questions to expect

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Speaker 4: at what ages, and how to respond to them. So

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Speaker 4: it's about building up skills across entire communities, not just

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Speaker 4: for the young people and their parents, but everyone about

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Speaker 4: how we talk about these matters. But coming back to

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Speaker 4: your question about whether these questions or these issues of

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Speaker 4: morality and sexuality belong in the home or whether they

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Speaker 4: belong as something that the state looks after, it's about

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Speaker 4: striking the balance between the two. And what's important about

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Speaker 4: comprehensive relationships and sexuality education is that it is predominantly

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Speaker 4: about access to information, information that can be used to

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Speaker 4: protect sexual wellbeing as young people go into that stage

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Speaker 4: of their lives later. And what we know is that

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Speaker 4: the earlier you talk to young people about this in

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Speaker 4: an age appropriate way, the later they are likely to

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Speaker 4: have their first sexual experiences, and the less likely they

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Speaker 4: are to have negative sexual experiences.

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Speaker 5: So that's really important to bear in mind when we're

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Speaker 5: talking about the need to have this conversation with young

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Speaker 5: people and to protect them with it.

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Speaker 2: So this is fascinating and it's something that I've always

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Speaker 2: been intrigued by in the research, this idea that when

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Speaker 2: we are more open with our children from a younger age,

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Speaker 2: it actually benefits them as they get older and they

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Speaker 2: make safer, healthier decisions. In just a sec we're going

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Speaker 2: to quiz Katrina about morality and some of the big

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Speaker 2: ticket items, some of these challenges that parents face as

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Speaker 2: they try to navigate these conversations with their children around

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Speaker 2: consent and sex education. That's coming up next on the

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Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast.

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Speaker 3: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 3: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 2: Details at happy families dot com dot au.

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Speaker 3: It's the Happy Families Podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're

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Speaker 3: talking with Katrina Marsden about sex education and consent in

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Speaker 3: our schools.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, Katrina, I've received and I regularly receive comments

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Speaker 2: from parents who really have big issues with what is

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Speaker 2: taught in schools when it comes to sex education. And

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Speaker 2: there's a couple of things that come up fairly consistently.

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Speaker 2: Number One, there are usually quite conservative parents who will say,

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Speaker 2: I don't want my children being taught all of the

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Speaker 2: gender diversity stuff. They're uncomfortable with some of those aspects

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Speaker 2: that could be taught in this curriculum. Another thing that

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Speaker 2: comes up remarkably regularly is this idea that the mechanics

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Speaker 2: of sex is taught, but not the reality of what

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Speaker 2: it is to leave an intimate life with someone. That is,

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Speaker 2: the emotional intimacy stuff is divorced from the physical intimacy.

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Speaker 2: A third thing that I've been hearing recently since Chanell

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Speaker 2: Kontos's petition has been what's the point in doing sex

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Speaker 2: education and consent? Anyway, Consent is a low bar and

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Speaker 2: the kids as goes in one ear and out the other.

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Speaker 2: As you've traveled the world and as you've dealt with

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Speaker 2: all of these big issues and watched what other countries

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Speaker 2: are doing, what has stood out to you in response

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Speaker 2: to these not necessarily specifically these issues, but these kinds

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Speaker 2: of issues more generally.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I think what is consistent between those those concerns

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Speaker 4: that you've just listed is that what makes good quality

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Speaker 4: relationships and sexuality education is when it is holistic and comprehensive.

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Speaker 4: So you can't just isolate a discussion about consent away

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Speaker 4: from a discussion about respectful relationships and bodies and puberty

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Speaker 4: and personal boundaries and families.

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Speaker 5: It needs to be embedded in a.

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Speaker 4: B a more holistic education program that is really important,

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Speaker 4: and that was consistent in every country that I went to.

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Speaker 4: What's important to remember about this kind of education is

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Speaker 4: that it is certainly in the international spirit. It's been

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Speaker 4: described as a life course intervention that increases the health

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Speaker 4: and well being of young people, and that's because it

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Speaker 4: can help them expand their knowledge of sexual and reproductive health.

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Speaker 4: And rights, but help them develop communication, decision making, risk

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Speaker 4: reduction skills, they can adopt positive and responsible attitudes towards sexuality.

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Speaker 4: These are the important things that we hope to deliver

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Speaker 4: in any good comprehensive Relationships and Sexuality education module.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like it's exactly the opposite of I

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Speaker 2: had a couple of people on my Facebook page recently

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Speaker 2: with one of these topics, say we just need to

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Speaker 2: go back to teaching abstinence until you're married. But it

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Speaker 2: sounds like you're you're indicating that the research evidence you've

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Speaker 2: found would be quite contradictory to that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it suggests that the opposite, and it's important to

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Speaker 4: emphasize the age appropriateness of it. Of course, we're talking

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Speaker 4: about anything that when we're talking to young people about this,

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Speaker 4: that would be done in an age appropriate fashion. But

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Speaker 4: one thing that I would like to highlight is what

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Speaker 4: was consistent overseas is that this was treated as a

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Speaker 4: specialist subject matter. So they had experts who would design

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Speaker 4: these programs, people who understand pedagogy and behavioral change, and

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Speaker 4: using these education methods to, as I say, ensure that

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Speaker 4: we have later first sexual experiences and when those sexual

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Speaker 4: experiences happen, that they are less likely.

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Speaker 5: To be negative.

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Speaker 4: Those were the people who were designing these curriculums and

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Speaker 4: helping them to be delivered or the teachers to be

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Speaker 4: trained to deliver them. Well, it's not just that someone

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Speaker 4: overseas said to me, Bob from geography can just teach

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Speaker 4: because he's.

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Speaker 5: Got a spare period period. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So that's certainly something that I think is really important

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Speaker 4: to remember in this conversation, and it's about acting on

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Speaker 4: the evidence about what we know this education is capable of.

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Speaker 3: This is just a fascinating conversation, Katrina. When I think

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Speaker 3: about the experiences that we've had as parents with our

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Speaker 3: six girls, they've been to a number of schools over

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Speaker 3: you know, a lifetime of schooling. For us, we've been

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Speaker 3: to only one school where sex education included parents in

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Speaker 3: the process, and it was such a powerful evening to

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Speaker 3: attend and to be able to, you know, sit side

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Speaker 3: by side with your child and hear the same words

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Speaker 3: and terminology used, and you know, use that as a

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Speaker 3: I guess, a jumping use that as a springboard, a springboard,

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Speaker 3: thank you, use that as a springboard to you know,

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Speaker 3: start and initiate conversations within the home, and so this

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Speaker 3: seems to be an area where we're really just you know,

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Speaker 3: missing the mark with families and children. You know, we

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Speaker 3: want to empower everybody through this process. So if I'm

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Speaker 3: a parent and I don't want my children to being

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Speaker 3: a participant or even an author of a partisant such

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Speaker 3: as Chanel Contos is one, or having to deal with

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Speaker 3: the appalling actions of predominantly males, but let's not you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of pick on them too much that we're seeing

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Speaker 3: in the Parliament at the moment. What can I do

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Speaker 3: as a parent? How can I arm my children, safeguard

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Speaker 3: them and help them to develop age appropriately and start

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Speaker 3: to experience, you know, positive relationships with their peers.

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Speaker 4: Sure, and again I go back to that point that

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Speaker 4: I made earlier about going to the sort of expert

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Speaker 4: designed material that is out there. There are people who

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Speaker 4: know how to do this well and how to do

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Speaker 4: it effectively. And so I can point you, for example,

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Speaker 4: to the Rutgers the Rutgers Institute in the Netherlands. They

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Speaker 4: are the ones responsible for designing their award winning program

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Speaker 4: spring Fever. So if you search spring Fever Rutgers, that's

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Speaker 4: r U t g eers in Google, it will take

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Speaker 4: you there. Sure, Sure, and then Big Talk Education in

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Speaker 4: the UK is another example. And then if you're wanting

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Speaker 4: to talk about consent, I can point you to the

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Speaker 4: Rape and Sexual Assault Research and Advocacy organization that I'm

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Speaker 4: part of, ROSARA dot org. They have a consent toolkit

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Speaker 4: which includes sort of how you might discuss the issue

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Speaker 4: of consent with young people specifically.

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Speaker 5: But again, I'd say that that conversation.

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Speaker 4: Needs to be part of a more broader, holistic discussion

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Speaker 4: about respectful relationships and sexuality.

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Speaker 5: And that's something.

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Speaker 4: That, as I say, if you search out, for example,

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Speaker 4: sexual health and family planning organizations often have good materials

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Speaker 4: on their websites. There are people out there who have

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Speaker 4: invested a lot of research and expertise in this, and

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Speaker 4: they do have some really good products out there for parents.

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Speaker 2: Well, Katrina, I like what you've done, and I'm frustrated

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Speaker 2: by what you've done, because what you've essentially said is

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to tell you what to do, but

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Speaker 2: here are some really great resources from people who are

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Speaker 2: excellent at it. And that's probably It's one of those

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Speaker 2: fastest slow but slow as fast things. And I think

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Speaker 2: that it's probably the right way to go. So it's

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Speaker 2: been a delight to talk with you. Thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for your expertise and the things you've shared.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: That's Katrina Marson. She works in the implementation of relationship

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Speaker 2: and sex education in schools and within communities, and also

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Speaker 2: works as a lawyer in the act. What a fascinating discussion.

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Speaker 2: If you have enjoyed the podcast, we always love it

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Speaker 2: when you leave ratings and reviews to help others to

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Speaker 2: discover the podcast. Five star ratings and reviews at Apple

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Speaker 2: Podcasts do that. The Happy Families podcast is produced by

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Speaker 2: Justin Ruland from Bridge Media. Our executive producer is Craig Bruce.

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Speaker 2: If you'd like more information about how to make your

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Speaker 2: family happier, you can check out the show notes. That's

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Speaker 2: where we'll link to everything Katrina's talk about, or visit

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Speaker 2: happyfamilies dot com dot a um HM