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Speaker 1: This week's episode of the Presser is with World Rugby's

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Speaker 1: Director of Women's Rugby, Sally Horris, who is chatting to

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Speaker 1: us all about the new competition, the WXV that is

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Speaker 1: currently happening in New Zealand. It's a new format for

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Speaker 1: women's rugby and they've tried to set it up so

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Speaker 1: that the players can get more opportunities to play at

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Speaker 1: the top level and the fans can have more opportunity

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Speaker 1: to watch their favorite players, which I think is an

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Speaker 1: incredible initiative. We have some great discussions around the importance

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Speaker 1: of investment in women's rugby and women's sport more broadly,

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Speaker 1: and also the importance of visibility. I absolutely loved this

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Speaker 1: chat with Sally. I hope you enjoy it. Sally, Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Female Athlete Project. You are just telling me

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Speaker 1: off air that you're feeling a little bit jet lagged.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us about what your recent travels have involved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Sure, hi, Chloe, and thanks for having me. So I've

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Speaker 3: just rived in New Zealand in Auckland yesterday the WXV

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Speaker 3: for the final week of the tournament. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: twenty four hour, twenty six hour flight, I think, and

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Speaker 3: I've spent the last five weeks in France at the

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Speaker 3: Rugby World Cup, watching some great games of rugby, but

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Speaker 3: also you know, there's a lot of decisions made around

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Speaker 3: the boardroom tables in France, and I wanted to make

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Speaker 3: sure that the women's game was properly represented there, so

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Speaker 3: I've hot footed it from Paris to Auckland.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Amazing. And before we get into WXV and the

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Speaker 1: women's side of the game, what was the experience like

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Speaker 1: at the Rugby World Cup in France? It was a

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Speaker 1: pretty tense final between South Africa and New Zealand. What

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Speaker 1: was it like being there? Oh?

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Speaker 2: It was.

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Speaker 3: It was an incredible experience. I mean I managed to

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Speaker 3: travel around the country, so just putting the final to

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Speaker 3: one side, just France as a rugby loving country, you know,

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Speaker 3: going to the south and the southwest of France to Marseille,

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Speaker 3: Bordeaux just incredible. They live, sleep, eat, breathe rugby, and

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Speaker 3: the wine and the cheese was pretty nice as well.

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Speaker 3: But now, the quality of the rugby though, when you

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Speaker 3: got to those final knockout games was out of this world.

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Speaker 3: So tense, so so tense. I'm not sure how those

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Speaker 3: lads could actually enjoy it. I said, do you think

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Speaker 3: they enjoy this? I thought, God, it was so so,

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Speaker 3: so tight. It was amazing to watch.

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Speaker 1: So you've landed over in New Zealand, and before we

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Speaker 1: get into this WXB, the new format tell us about

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Speaker 1: that Women's Rugby World Cup that was hosted in New

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Speaker 1: Zealand that really was able to shift a lot of perceptions,

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Speaker 1: particularly in New Zealand, which has always been a rugby country.

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Speaker 1: It's part of the religion over there, but more because

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Speaker 1: of the all Blacks, because of the men's side. What

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Speaker 1: was the significance of an event like that in being

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Speaker 1: able to introduce a lot of new people to rugby,

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Speaker 1: into women's rugby, but to be able to shift some

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Speaker 1: of those perceptions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you're spot on about the perception piece in New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: but I think also globally.

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Speaker 2: But you saw it really sort of.

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Speaker 3: Pinpointed in New Zealand because they are, as you say,

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Speaker 3: a rugby loving country, but it was almost like they

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Speaker 3: woke up afresh to the women's game and the.

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Speaker 2: Audience was was different. The audience.

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Speaker 3: You know, we had the die hard rugby fans, but

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Speaker 3: we also had the families and we had the kids

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Speaker 3: and we had, you know, we had the sport and

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Speaker 3: we had the entertainment. And having sort of watched rugby

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Speaker 3: myself in New Zealand over the years, I spent a

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Speaker 3: lot of time over over here. You know, there's quite

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Speaker 3: a purest attitude to the sport, which I love, by

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Speaker 3: the way, you know, I love that hardcore you know

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Speaker 3: rugby fan. But you just saw that broaden, the appeal

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Speaker 3: of the game broaden, and the quality of the rugby,

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Speaker 3: you know, the women playing, the athletes on the pitch,

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Speaker 3: the quality of that final, you know, and the sunnis

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Speaker 3: that came through over those couple of days, those couple

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Speaker 3: of weeks.

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Speaker 2: It was phenomenal. For me.

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Speaker 3: It was one of the very, very best games of

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Speaker 3: rugby I had ever seen that final, male or female,

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Speaker 3: no matter what. And I think that was that was

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Speaker 3: the case for a lot of people. So you saw

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Speaker 3: this broadening of appeal and an understanding that the women

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Speaker 3: really can play at the top level. And the personalities

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Speaker 3: of the players came through hugely. So those were you know,

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Speaker 3: those were my main takeaways and those personalities, and you know,

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Speaker 3: Ruby Dewey was the story of the tournament, wasn't she

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Speaker 3: In terms of her larger than life personality that has

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Speaker 3: stayed with the game, you know. So she's just come

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Speaker 3: back in from the USA where she's been playing in

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Speaker 3: the PR Seven's landed at the airport, lots of buzz,

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Speaker 3: lots of paparazzi, and now she's here to play wux Wee.

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Speaker 3: So you can see that momentum, that storytelling building in

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Speaker 3: the women's game, which I think is really important for

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Speaker 3: it to grow.

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Speaker 1: What's the translation then, from an event like that in

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Speaker 1: terms of the strategy at world rugby level to that

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Speaker 1: momentum and continue to give the players opportunity to play,

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Speaker 1: but also the fans exposure to be able to watch

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Speaker 1: their favorite players.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now again, you're absolutely right, it's about for us. It's

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Speaker 3: about providing these amazing women with more opportunity to play

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Speaker 3: the right level of competition with the right frequency. Because

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Speaker 3: you get a World Cup, it's a standout moment for

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Speaker 3: the game and all that's great about it, but it

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Speaker 3: only comes around every four years, and women's rugby is

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Speaker 3: at a relatively women's fifteens rugby a relatively early stage

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Speaker 3: of its development, So trying to get the right matchups

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Speaker 3: for these teams and WXV has got eighteen teams playing

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Speaker 3: it from all over the world. They're just not getting

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Speaker 3: that right level of matchup regularly enough. So it was

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Speaker 3: a big call by World Rugby to invest over ten

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Speaker 3: million sterling in this competition for the next couple of years,

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Speaker 3: for this year and next year twenty twenty four, as

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Speaker 3: we build into the expanded World Cup in twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: five in England, so there will take sixteen teams to

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Speaker 3: that World Cup and this competition is that qualification pathway

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Speaker 3: through to that World Cup. But we're also funding and

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Speaker 3: supporting all these eighteen unions with their warm ups, with

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Speaker 3: their travel, you know, with the budgets and the investment

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Speaker 3: around it, with their staff structures, with their coaching support.

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Speaker 3: So we're really trying to do our best to wrap

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Speaker 3: our arms around the great work they're doing already to

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Speaker 3: lift the game as much as we can over these

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Speaker 3: two years running into twenty five.

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Speaker 1: What do you carry on from that leading into from

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Speaker 1: the success of twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two World

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Speaker 1: Cup heading into twenty twenty five, and what a lot

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Speaker 1: of our audience in me and beers in particular, most

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Speaker 1: excited about the twenty twenty nine Women's Rugby World Cup

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Speaker 1: in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Now's it's all part of a of a ten year

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Speaker 3: plan for the sport, if you like, because it's important

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Speaker 3: that we build this, that we create the right platform

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Speaker 3: and the right foundations. So twenty one twenty two will

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Speaker 3: build twenty five through WXB. But we now have the

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Speaker 3: first global calendar for the women's game that we just

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Speaker 3: approved when we were in Paris. So that's a big

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Speaker 3: deal and it may sound a bit academic, but what

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Speaker 3: it does it allows us to build the pathway, as

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Speaker 3: you say, to twenty twenty nine. So you know, if

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Speaker 3: you're thinking, if you're a massive rugby sort of nut,

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Speaker 3: you're thinking then about where you place the pack four

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Speaker 3: the Pacific four series and how we build that. So

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Speaker 3: it's a real cornerstone for the game. You're thinking about

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Speaker 3: the pathway to professionalism for the athletes, for the players

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Speaker 3: so that they're getting well supported.

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Speaker 2: On this journey. And then the flip side.

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Speaker 3: To that for me, or the complementary side, is what

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Speaker 3: we do with our fans and how we build this

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Speaker 3: visibility in the game through all these competitions. You know,

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Speaker 3: we've we've launched a streaming platform at will Rugby called

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Speaker 3: Rugby Pass So WXV has been seen in over one

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Speaker 3: hundred and thirty countries all over the world. So this

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Speaker 3: build right through to twenty nine. If we can get

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Speaker 3: the visibility out there and the reach and this pathway

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Speaker 3: to professionalism for the athletes, we should be raising the

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Speaker 3: standards year on year and by the time we get

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Speaker 3: to twenty nine, I mean, it's incredible. I'm thinking beyond

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Speaker 3: twenty nine as well, right through to America in twenty

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Speaker 3: thirty three. But I think in women's sport, and I

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Speaker 3: know a lot of your conversations you know cross cross sport,

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Speaker 3: not one of the things that holds women's sport back

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Speaker 3: is they don't have that clarity of narrative and pathway.

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Speaker 3: I've worked in football before in soccer, and it was

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Speaker 3: a real issue for us with FIFA and UEFA and

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Speaker 3: federations around the world. You couldn't secure the right level

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Speaker 3: of investment often because you couldn't plan that far enough

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Speaker 3: in advance. And football has made great strides over the

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Speaker 3: last decade. But for us in rugby, we're trying to

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Speaker 3: get ahead of that. If we can get that real

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Speaker 3: clarity of where we're going and then we can action

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Speaker 3: plan behind it, we can get the right investment behind.

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Speaker 2: It, which is super important for Australia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, and we're really big on discussing investment in

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Speaker 1: women's sport. And obviously that visibility piece that you touched

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Speaker 1: on for us the FIFA Women's World Cup on home

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Speaker 1: soil earlier this year was just mind blowing. But I

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Speaker 1: think was an incredible representation of the commercial viability of

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Speaker 1: women's sport. How do you see that translating into women's rugby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was fortunate I was in Sydney. I came

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Speaker 3: over for the World Cup. I'd work previously with FIFA

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Speaker 3: and other soccer bodies, so I was invited to come

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Speaker 3: along and be part of their symposium. So I saw

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Speaker 3: it firsthand, and you just see how an event like

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Speaker 3: that can just ignite and they when you engage with

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Speaker 3: the audience in the right way. And it is I

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Speaker 3: think this combination of sport and entertainment that works. But

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Speaker 3: the planning that's involved in that doesn't just happen by accident.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I was.

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Speaker 3: Talking with the international bodies and the government, you know,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and soccer Australia about the work they

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Speaker 3: did before the event, the build into it, you know,

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Speaker 3: and the building of the personalities and the profiles, and

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Speaker 3: then the actual event itself and then the legacy afterwards.

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Speaker 3: And you saw the two hundred million that came through

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Speaker 3: the government and we met and we talked about that

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Speaker 3: as well when we were in town, So you can

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Speaker 3: see that with the right approach, and it does require

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Speaker 3: that level of attention to detail. I think it's really

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Speaker 3: it's going to be really intentional. I think great things

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Speaker 3: can come around as a result of these massive showcase events,

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Speaker 3: but it doesn't just happen by accident. And I suppose

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Speaker 3: that that's what I'm driving out with things like the

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Speaker 3: global calendar work and the partnership that we have with

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Speaker 3: Rugby Australia and the work will do with estate governments

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Speaker 3: as well when we're in town, and the work we're

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Speaker 3: doing in England at the moment. Because if you get

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Speaker 3: that right and you can build the visibility going into

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Speaker 3: the tournament, then the rugby will speak for itself, you know,

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Speaker 3: when we're there. The rugby will do the job for us,

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Speaker 3: but we have to put in place all of that,

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Speaker 3: all of that work around the event itself, so that

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Speaker 3: the I suppose when you when you come out at

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Speaker 3: the other end of the the other side of the event,

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Speaker 3: you want the girls to play, You want you want

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Speaker 3: the girls to know where they can go, where they

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Speaker 3: can play, how they can access the sport. And I

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Speaker 3: speak here as a mother of four kids and three daughters.

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Speaker 3: You know, for me, it's just as much about, you know,

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Speaker 3: the impact then the sport has on their self confidence,

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Speaker 3: on their health, on their education, on their employability, one

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Speaker 3: where they move on in their lives. So that's the

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Speaker 3: sort of impact that major events can have if you're

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Speaker 3: really smart and thoughtful about the way that you you know,

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Speaker 3: you use them and you work with them. So, I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's a subject close to my heart. I love rugby,

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Speaker 3: I love sport, but it's just as much about the

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Speaker 3: impact that we can create for young people everywhere. And

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Speaker 3: the World Cup in Australia was phenomenal for that. So

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Speaker 3: we just need to put the right team. We've got

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Speaker 3: some brilliant people, but we need to be really thoughtful

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Speaker 3: about the way we approach that in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, you touched on the fact that you're planning

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Speaker 1: all the way ahead to twenty thirty three. I think

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Speaker 1: you said, what's your best case scenario, what's kind of

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Speaker 1: the dream for what women's rugby could look like by

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Speaker 1: twenty thirty three.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's a big question.

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Speaker 3: Well, if we could take rugby to being a mainstream

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Speaker 3: sport in America, I mean, just think about the global

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Speaker 3: access ability of the game that we would have delivered.

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Speaker 3: I mean that's a tall ask by twenty thirty three.

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Speaker 3: Twenty thirty three is the moment when you gain you

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Speaker 3: could ignite that opportunity in the States. But if we're

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Speaker 3: talking about the States for a moment, you've also got

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Speaker 3: La Olympics in twenty twenty eight. I mean, I know

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Speaker 3: you've played the game. You've played the game in the

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Speaker 3: seventh format. So for me, my responsibility is to grow

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Speaker 3: the sevens game and the fifteen's game. It's not just

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Speaker 3: to build one part of the game. And that gives

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Speaker 3: choice to you know, to athletes as well. So ideally

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty eight does a great job, twenty nine in

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Speaker 3: Australia builds the profile further, and then we ignite a

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Speaker 3: mass audience in the States. Because World Rugby's role is

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Speaker 3: to make this game as relevant and accessible globally, and

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Speaker 3: it would be great to have new countries involved, so

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Speaker 3: it's not the traditional countries that have always played men's rugby.

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Speaker 3: You want an open pathway and an open game. So

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Speaker 3: that's that's what I would love. And going back to

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Speaker 3: your fan question earlier, if you look at investment women's

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Speaker 3: sport investment and sports entertainment investment, the US market is

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Speaker 3: the largest in the world, so it's not all about

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Speaker 3: the USA, but the pivot that we would you know,

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Speaker 3: and the strength that we would get through taking our

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Speaker 3: sport into that North American market and into Canada as well.

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Speaker 3: It could unlock a whole additional level of not just participation,

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Speaker 3: but investment in the sport.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really really exciting. Sally, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for your time today. I as obviously a rugby player

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Speaker 1: and fan myself, I've really loved hearing your insights and

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Speaker 1: I think more broadly, as you touched on these key

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Speaker 1: themes that are woven throughout women's sport as a whole,

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Speaker 1: around visibility and investment.

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Speaker 2: It's just so incredibly.

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Speaker 1: Important and I love I love the WXV. I loved

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Speaker 1: seeing my Wallaros friends get that we know over friends

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Speaker 1: as well. It was absolutely incredible, so thank you so.

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Speaker 2: Much for your time.

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Speaker 3: No, it's an absolute pleasure, but yeah, it's been great

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Speaker 3: talking to your Chloe.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, thank you so much, Thanks so much for listening.

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Speaker 1: If you got something out of this episode, I would

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Speaker 1: absolutely love it if you could send it on to

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