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Speaker 1: Already and this is the Daily Oh, this is the

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Speaker 1: Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Oh, now it makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Good morning and welcome to the Daily OS. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 3: the twenty third of May. I'm Zara, I'm Billy. Over

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Speaker 3: the last month we have brought you a number of

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Speaker 3: episodes about the rising rate of men's violence against women.

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Speaker 2: Here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Billy.

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Speaker 3: We have spoken about specific cases, we've spoken about new statistics,

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Speaker 3: and we've spoken about roundtables being convened to discuss this

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Speaker 3: very issue. But for today's podcast, we wanted to go

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Speaker 3: straight to the person responsible for making sure that this

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Speaker 3: rate comes down. Now that's the Minister for Women, Katie Gallahu.

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Speaker 1: In my interview with Minister Gallagher, I ask her about

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Speaker 1: why men's violence against women is getting worse, what can

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Speaker 1: be done to improve the safety of women in the country,

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Speaker 1: and also other issues affecting women, including the gender pay gap.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that interview, Zara, what is

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Speaker 1: making headlines today?

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Speaker 3: Victoria has recorded a human case of avian influenza H

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Speaker 3: five N one that's burred flu. Bird flu is an

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Speaker 3: infectious viral illness that primarily spreads among birds like chickens

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Speaker 3: and ducks. It has spread to other animals in recent years,

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Speaker 3: causing the Weld Health Organization to label it a global

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Speaker 3: animal pandemic. A young child from Victoria became infected while overseas,

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Speaker 3: but has since recovered, and Victoria Health has said no

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Speaker 3: further cases have been identified through contact tracing.

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Speaker 1: Australians are losing less money to scams, according to data

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Speaker 1: from the consumer watchdog, The A Triple C Scam Watch

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Speaker 1: reported nearly three hundred and forty six million dollars was

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Speaker 1: lost to scams in the first three months of twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four. That's nearly an eleven percent decrease on the

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Speaker 1: amount lost to scams in the prior three months. Antifraud

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Speaker 1: organization Theseustralian Financial Crime Exchange said it received forty percent

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Speaker 1: fewer scam reports for the quarter. Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones

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Speaker 1: said the finding show scam crackdowns are working, but losses

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Speaker 1: remain far too high.

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Speaker 3: Vietnam has appointed its police minister to the role of president,

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Speaker 3: though Lum steps up as leader after its predecessor resigned

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Speaker 3: over corruption allegations. The sixty six year old is considered

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Speaker 3: a key campaigner for anti corruption measures.

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Speaker 1: And Today's Good News, a new trial in the Northern

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Speaker 1: Territory will aim to reduce the number of single use

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Speaker 1: takeaway coffee cups being thrown away. The program will allow

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Speaker 1: customers to borrow a cup from participating cafes for a

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Speaker 1: small deposit fee, which they will then have refunded when

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Speaker 1: the cup is returned. The trial will end in July,

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Speaker 1: when the Northern Territory government will consider implementing it long term.

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Speaker 1: It's part of an overall move towards waste reduction in

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Speaker 1: the territory.

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Speaker 3: So, Billy, in today's Deep Dive, you are speaking to

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Speaker 3: the Minister for Women and the Minister for Finance, same person.

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Speaker 3: Minister Gallagher, why did you want to speak to her?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the last month has felt like a

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Speaker 1: watershed moment for the country. You mentioned earlier that we

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Speaker 1: have done a number of episodes on this, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's fair to say that there has been a

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Speaker 1: lot of anger about the rate of men's violence against

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Speaker 1: women in this country. We found out earlier this month

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Speaker 1: that the rate of women killed by a partner in

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Speaker 1: Australia actually increased by nearly thirty percent in twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three compared to the previous year. So that suggests that

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Speaker 1: this problem is getting worse, it's not getting better, despite

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Speaker 1: the government's efforts. There've also been a lot of rallies

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Speaker 1: and there have been petitions, and it has just been

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Speaker 1: this real national conversation. And Katie Gallagher, who I interview today,

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Speaker 1: she is the government's Minister for Women. So she's the

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Speaker 1: person that Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi has put in charge

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Speaker 1: to be responsible for coming up with a strategy to

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Speaker 1: end men's violence against women and to better ensure the

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Speaker 1: safety of women in this country. A big task, yes,

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Speaker 1: a very big task, and it was a no brainer

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Speaker 1: to me to reach out to her and to put

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Speaker 1: to her our audience's questions about how the government is

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Speaker 1: dealing with this and how it can do better.

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Speaker 3: I want to get straight into the interview, but before

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Speaker 3: we do it, is there anything you think we need

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Speaker 3: to know going in any assumed knowledge at all?

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Speaker 1: Yes? I do think there is one term that you

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Speaker 1: will hear a lot that is assumed knowledge, and that

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Speaker 1: is the term the National Plan. You'll hear that we

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Speaker 1: say that a lot, and that is in reference to

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Speaker 1: the National Plan to end Violence against Women and Children.

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Speaker 1: That is the official term and it's a ten year

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Speaker 1: plan which you'll hear us discuss a lot about that

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Speaker 1: time period, and it's an agreement between the federal, state

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Speaker 1: and territory governments to end men's violence against women. So

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Speaker 1: it's this plan that the government has designed with state

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Speaker 1: and territory governments to end violence against women. And that

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Speaker 1: is the key word here that they want to end

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Speaker 1: violence against women. And it is actually the second national

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Speaker 1: plan that we have had. The last one was introduced

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Speaker 1: by Julia Gillard and that failed. So this is a

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Speaker 1: really key policy and it's the government's main policy in

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Speaker 1: this area.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think that that is an apt segue

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Speaker 3: into this conversation with the minister.

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Speaker 2: Here's that chat.

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Speaker 1: Kata Galaha, thank you so much for joining the Daily Ours.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me as the Minister of Women. What

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Speaker 1: do you believe is the number one issue facing young

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Speaker 1: women in Australia today.

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Speaker 4: Well, there's lots of issues, but I think that probably

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Speaker 4: the major one is violence, whether it be sexual violence

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Speaker 4: or family based gender violence.

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Speaker 2: That would be probably it.

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Speaker 4: Unfortunately, because it impacts on everything else. If we didn't

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Speaker 4: have a problem with violence, I think some of the

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Speaker 4: other issues, like you know, how women have to provide

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Speaker 4: a lot of the caring across the community. How we

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Speaker 4: work in lower paid and more highly feminized job.

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Speaker 2: It impacts on all of that.

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Speaker 4: Violence impacts on your job, you know, your economic well being,

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Speaker 4: your family, everything.

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Speaker 1: Your government has committed to ending men's violence against women

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Speaker 1: in the next decade. The data tells us we're going backwards.

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Speaker 4: Though why is that In terms of some of the statistics,

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Speaker 4: You know, there's always an issue of when people feel

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Speaker 4: more comfortable about reporting it and pursuing it through the courts,

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Speaker 4: that you would see an increase because a lot of

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Speaker 4: it and I'm not trying to say that this is

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Speaker 4: it's a good result having those numbers increasing, but a

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Speaker 4: lot of violence against women has been secret, but it's

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Speaker 4: still at unacceptable levels, Like there's no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: If we look though, at the number of women who

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Speaker 1: have been killed by an intimate partner, that number has

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Speaker 1: increased by nearly thirty percent in twenty twenty three. And

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Speaker 1: that's not a case of you know, more women coming forward,

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Speaker 1: that's just facts that we have data dating back thirty

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Speaker 1: years and all the figures show that it is set

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Speaker 1: to increase again this year. Why is that? What is

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Speaker 1: going so wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I agree completely.

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Speaker 4: The deaths of women in this country often at the

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Speaker 4: hands of former partners, so former intimate partners, is completely

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Speaker 4: unacceptable and it's horrifying.

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Speaker 1: But why even since this national Plan has come into

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Speaker 1: effect it has increased further? Why?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, I mean I would think I don't know

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Speaker 4: that you could link the tooth that the plan has

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Speaker 4: failed or the plan hasn't done what it said it

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Speaker 4: would do, because the plan is about long term change

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Speaker 4: and we're seeing that the issues of whether it's a

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Speaker 4: woman dying once a week, once every four days, that's

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Speaker 4: been around for a lot longer.

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Speaker 1: Just to be clear, though, what is your answer for

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Speaker 1: why it has increased?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's really difficult to like, we have

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Speaker 4: always had men killing women in this country, you know,

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Speaker 4: So I don't it's I think that we've got a

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Speaker 4: level of public scrutiny of it, we've got reporting of it,

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Speaker 4: We've got a much better discussion about what's happening and

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Speaker 4: what led to it, so that I think has really

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Speaker 4: I don't know, it's got into people' psyching and it

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Speaker 4: requires all of us to say, Okay, what else can

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Speaker 4: be done? You know, some of the issues are clearly

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Speaker 4: with the legal system and they need to be resolved,

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Speaker 4: but we've got to look at ways that we can

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Speaker 4: help as well.

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Speaker 1: I was watching your press Club speech from March and

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Speaker 1: you said, quote women in this country don't need another

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Speaker 1: empty promise, they need action and accountability. With men's violence

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Speaker 1: against women increasing despite the government's national pan isn't that

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Speaker 1: the definition of an empty promise?

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Speaker 4: Well, I don't think it's an empty promise at all.

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Speaker 4: And I guess the remarks I was making there were

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Speaker 4: really how hard and complex this all is. The reasons

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Speaker 4: why men are violent towards women in this country are

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Speaker 4: complex and they're not going to be solved with one

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Speaker 4: policy idea. You know, this is stuff that we have

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Speaker 4: to change at primary school, its attitudes towards women, and

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Speaker 4: you know, we're really determined to try and shift the dial.

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Speaker 4: But we're not pretending it's easy or that it's going

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Speaker 4: to happen overnight.

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Speaker 1: But with the data showing that it's increasing, isn't that

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Speaker 1: an empty promise?

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Speaker 4: Well, the national plans eighteen months in we'll do reports

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Speaker 4: against it. I think there's a report due at the

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Speaker 4: half way mark to say what we're seeing and within

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Speaker 4: that time there's work to be done about making sure

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Speaker 4: we're i think looking at all of the ways that

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Speaker 4: we can really address this.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned before that it's a ten year plan and

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Speaker 1: we are only eighteen months in. But that's one of

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Speaker 1: the criticisms of a policy like this that under this

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Speaker 1: policy it takes a decade. By that time, you likely

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Speaker 1: won't be the Minister for Women. So who will be

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Speaker 1: held to account if we don't meet these targets at

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Speaker 1: the end of these ten years.

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess what it does is it sets the

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Speaker 4: framework for your key areas of focus, how you make investments,

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Speaker 4: how you work with the states and territories, what you

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Speaker 4: do with your community partners. You know, the importance of

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Speaker 4: the National Plan is setting those areas of focus. And

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Speaker 4: then what it means is if I come and go

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Speaker 4: and politicians do that, you have the national plan. That

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Speaker 4: doesn't change because the focus has to be on early intervention, prevention,

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Speaker 4: recovery and healing.

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Speaker 2: That's not going to change.

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Speaker 4: I mean if I'm Minister for Women or someone else's

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Speaker 4: maybe the level of commitment wanes about the priority of it.

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Speaker 2: But it sets the framework and that's the important thing.

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Speaker 1: But at the end of the ten years, I think

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Speaker 1: we're just in failure after failure in their space. And

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Speaker 1: you said that, you know, women need accountability. If at

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Speaker 1: the end of the ten years it fails and the

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Speaker 1: government of the day just blames the previous government, no

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Speaker 1: one takes responsibility. And if we can't hold you to account.

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Speaker 1: As a Minister for women, who do we hold to

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Speaker 1: account Yeah? Look, and I can sense the frustration. In

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Speaker 1: terms of accountability. It's not waiting to the end of

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Speaker 1: ten years.

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Speaker 4: We will be accountable under that plan, through the action

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Speaker 4: plans and through our reports. So we are being accountable

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Speaker 4: all through those ways, like we're not setting it at

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Speaker 4: eighteen months ago and then saying see you in ten years' time.

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Speaker 4: But we also have to be honest and say government

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Speaker 4: cannot solve this issue, like it is not a matter

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Speaker 4: of you know, I guess areas where governments can solve,

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Speaker 4: like we can increase bulk billing, or we can make

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Speaker 4: medicines cheaper, things like that, where we do have the

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Speaker 4: leavers available to control those outcomes. We don't control the

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Speaker 4: level of violence against women in this country. Our role

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Speaker 4: is to say it shouldn't happen. It's to make sure

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Speaker 4: the legal system is there to support it and also

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Speaker 4: to support women and children who are experiencing it get

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Speaker 4: out of it. So they are the things, but we

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Speaker 4: are absolutely accountable for it.

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Speaker 1: At the last election, Lber promised to deliver five hundred

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Speaker 1: new domestic violence workers. How many has it delivered to date?

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Speaker 2: Look, I don't have the latest figure on that. I

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Speaker 2: know by the end of June.

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Speaker 4: Amanda Rishworth, who has responsibility for this in the government,

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Speaker 4: has undertaking from the states and territories where we would

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Speaker 4: have more than half of those positions filled.

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Speaker 1: But Amanda Rishworth said though about two months ago that

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Speaker 1: it was at seventeen.

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Speaker 4: Is that right, Yes, So if I take a step back,

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Speaker 4: we're providing the funding for that, but the funding goes

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Speaker 4: through the states and territories and they do the employment.

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Speaker 4: So l Ever knew that when it made this promise. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: and we thought it would be a much more straightforward

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Speaker 4: process than it's been. So so it was some example

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Speaker 4: of an empty promise. No, not at all, because we've

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Speaker 4: delivered on our commitment, which is to fund it. The

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Speaker 4: funding is there, the payments have been made, but.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't make a difference if the workers aren't there.

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Speaker 2: Well again, I mean I wish things were black and

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Speaker 2: white as well. They're not.

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Speaker 4: You can't just snap your fingers and get the workers

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Speaker 4: in place. But they've given us commitments that you know,

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Speaker 4: more than half of them will be employed by the

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Speaker 4: end of June.

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Speaker 2: So we're staying on Amanda.

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Speaker 4: I know from working with her, she's calling them all

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Speaker 4: the time, asking them how they're going, so they understand

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Speaker 4: it's a real priority for us.

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Speaker 1: Let's move to the gender pay gap. It is currently

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Speaker 1: twelve percent, which is the lowest on record. Tell us

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Speaker 1: so what the government is doing to reduce it further.

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Speaker 2: So a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: I mean, one of the best things we can do

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Speaker 4: is try and get the wages for women up. So

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Speaker 4: we're playing a role there, particularly in those highly feminized

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Speaker 4: industries like age care. We're ninety percent of the workforce

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Speaker 4: for women, so they've had a big pay increase. So

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Speaker 4: part of it's making sure wages are improving, and part

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Speaker 4: of it's about I think flushing out what's happening in

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Speaker 4: particularly in the private sector about pay.

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about the highly feminized industries because,

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Speaker 1: as I say, one issue is the lower pay for

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Speaker 1: employees in women dominated industries, and I've heard you say

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Speaker 1: that one solution is to get more men working in

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Speaker 1: those industries. How do you plan to encourage men to

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Speaker 1: work in lower paid industries.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's why we're trying to increase the pay, because

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Speaker 4: it is very sensitive to pay rates when you can

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Speaker 4: get a lot better pay in a lot of other work,

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Speaker 4: like you know, if you're an early childhood educator. I

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Speaker 4: spoke to somebody who left to go and work at

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Speaker 4: Bunnings because they get more there. So part of it's

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Speaker 4: about lifting the pay, professionalizing it. I think it's also

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Speaker 4: about the conditions of employment. So more and more we

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Speaker 4: need to put the focus on men being able to

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Speaker 4: take leave and to care for children and things like that.

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Speaker 4: But we also need to get it's not just men

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Speaker 4: into women's jobs, it's women into men's jobs as well.

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Speaker 4: So construction, mining, all of those jobs are ninety percent

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Speaker 4: men and ten percent women. They're very well paid, but

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Speaker 4: they don't often have the conditions that women feel that

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Speaker 4: they can go and work in. So it's a mix

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Speaker 4: of all of those things.

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Speaker 1: I want to look at homelessness. Women who are fifty

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Speaker 1: five and older are one of the fastest growing groups

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Speaker 1: of homeless people in the country. What is the government

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Speaker 1: doing to fix this?

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Speaker 4: Well, that's i guess out there at the center of

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Speaker 4: our housing agenda. So that's why our housing programs have

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Speaker 4: a subset of focus on.

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Speaker 2: Women and women with children.

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Speaker 4: We pay common Wealth rent assistance for people on low

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Speaker 4: incomes as part of the income supports and fifty one

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Speaker 4: percent of those that receive common wealth or in assistance

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Speaker 4: are single. Women often have children, but sometimes they're not.

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Speaker 4: They're single women and it can be women over the

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Speaker 4: age of fifty five. So we know that there's a

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Speaker 4: big need there that deals with the.

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Speaker 1: Symptoms of the issue, But what are you doing to

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Speaker 1: address the causes of the problem.

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Speaker 4: So a lot of the cause of that problem comes

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Speaker 4: with marital breakdown and lack of economic security. So women

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Speaker 4: might have had long periods out of the workforce, caring

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Speaker 4: for children, raising families, and then you know, maybe there's

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Speaker 4: a marriage breakdown and women don't have enough super then

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Speaker 4: don't have as much assets as their partner, and they

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Speaker 4: find themselves in this really vulnerable situation. So a couple

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Speaker 4: of things, they're really trying to lift the wages of women.

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Speaker 4: That's happening super making sure and the generations that will

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Speaker 4: come behind sort of women of my generation will, if

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Speaker 4: they've been working, have superannuation to rely on the age

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Speaker 4: pension is there otherwise making sure little things like we're

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Speaker 4: doing super on PPL because we recognize that as women

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Speaker 4: come in and out of the workforce that those periods

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Speaker 4: of time, you know, they call it the motherhood penalty,

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Speaker 4: where you're in and out and you suffer either from

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Speaker 4: you know, lack of promotion. Can't work full time, so

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Speaker 4: you work part time, and when you're out of the

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Speaker 4: work paid workforce and you're basically working full time with

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Speaker 4: your children, you don't get SUPER.

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Speaker 2: So we're changing all that and that was in the

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Speaker 2: budget now.

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Speaker 1: Treasurer Jim Chalmers recently said it would be better if

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Speaker 1: birth rates were higher, and he said that he did

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Speaker 1: understand why families were having less babies. But I'm interested

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Speaker 1: in your perspective as the Minister for Women and the

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Speaker 1: Minister for Finance. Is Australia's declining birth rate a concern

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Speaker 1: for you?

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Speaker 4: I think when you look at economic forecasts, if we

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Speaker 4: talk about it in kind of the economic language, having

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Speaker 4: a birth rate that doesn't meet the replacement rate is

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Speaker 4: an issue. Certainly, you know, you'll have less people looking

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Speaker 4: after older generations and that puts a real pressure on things.

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Speaker 4: But I also recognize that women's reproductive choices are their own,

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Speaker 4: and there's a range of reasons why women choose to

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Speaker 4: have children or choose not to have children. I guess

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Speaker 4: the job for government is to make sure that those

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Speaker 4: choices are real. So if you don't want to have children,

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Speaker 4: that that's okay. If you want to have children, that

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Speaker 4: you're supported to do that, and that the government systems

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Speaker 4: help you make life a bit easier when you're going

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Speaker 4: through that.

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Speaker 1: So if it is an issue, what is the government

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Speaker 1: doing to make having a baby more attractive?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think if you look at the reasons that

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Speaker 4: a lot of women and it's certainly got a lot

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Speaker 4: of conversation going. But the conversation that I heard through

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Speaker 4: that and just talking with women that I have contact with, was,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's too costly financially, it's too hard to

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Speaker 4: afford to buy a house, I'm worried about climate change,

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Speaker 4: the world's going crazy.

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Speaker 2: Why would I do that?

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Speaker 4: So, you know, I think for government, what are the

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Speaker 4: things that we can help with where we can try

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Speaker 4: and help with housing, making sure we've got more supply.

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Speaker 4: We can do things like PPL on souper so people

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Speaker 4: don't feel that they're going to be financially disadvantaged. We

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Speaker 4: can make sure that women are getting the opportunities that

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Speaker 4: they deserve, that they can be economically independent of their partner.

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Speaker 4: Those are the types of things that we can control.

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Speaker 4: And maybe if you're making life a bit easier on

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Speaker 4: that front, you start thinking, well, yeah, I can have

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Speaker 4: another child if I want one.

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Speaker 2: But to me, it's all about choice.

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Speaker 4: We know that women make different choices, families make different choices,

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Speaker 4: but it's the fact that they are able to make

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Speaker 4: a choice.

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Speaker 1: I think that we need to focus on just lastly,

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Speaker 1: what do you hope that your legacy as the Minister

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Speaker 1: for Women is.

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Speaker 4: I don't really think about legacies that often, like I'm

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Speaker 4: partly because I'm too busy, and also I think it's

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Speaker 4: a bit indulgent, like to think, you know, what will

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Speaker 4: I bring to this? I feel like I am you know,

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Speaker 4: I'm in this privileged position. I've got a full kind

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Speaker 4: of job list of to do things that I want

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Speaker 4: to get done. But that to do list has been

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Speaker 4: campaigned for from women all around the country for many,

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Speaker 4: many years, and I'm just in the privileged position to

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Speaker 4: try and start knocking them off one by one. And

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Speaker 4: we've done quite a bit in our first two years.

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Speaker 4: We've got more to do, but you know, I really

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Speaker 4: hope that women of your generation, at the end of

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Speaker 4: the day, I guess what motivates me. Women of your generation,

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Speaker 4: My daughters and their daughters will find life a bit

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Speaker 4: easier and a bit better, and a bit more equal

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Speaker 4: and a bit more fairer than women of my generation found.

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Speaker 1: Katie Gallaha, thank you so much for joining the Daily OS.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Billy, thanks so much for listening to today's podcast. I

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Speaker 3: know I learned a lot from hearing Billy and Katie

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Speaker 3: Gallaher chat about the future of this country and how

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Speaker 3: we can better protect women against men's violence. If you

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Speaker 3: learned something from today's episode, hip follow on Spotifi our Apple.

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Speaker 3: It really really helps us grow and it signals to

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Speaker 3: the platforms that you are enjoying our content. Have a

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Speaker 3: great day, and we'll be back again tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 2: Bungelung Calkatin woman from Gadigol country.

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Speaker 4: The Daily oz acknowledges that this podcast is recorded on

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Speaker 4: the lands of the Gadighl people and pays respect to

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Speaker 4: all Aboriginal and Torres s right island and nations.

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Speaker 2: We pay our respects to the first peoples of these countries,

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Speaker 2: both past and present.