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Speaker 1: You're listening to Mix one oh four point nine. Now,

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Speaker 1: as we know, the estimates process is underway in the

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Speaker 1: Northern Territory at the moment, and it's the opportunity for

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Speaker 1: the Opposition and the Independence to question the government over

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Speaker 1: spending and departmental operations.

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Speaker 2: I had a good listen yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Afternoon when I got off air, and I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: what it got fairly heated at different times. Now joining

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Speaker 1: me on the line to talk more about this and

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Speaker 1: plenty more is the Opposition leader Leofanocchiaro.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, Good morning Katie, and to your listeners, Lea.

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Speaker 1: You had a whole day to question the Chief Minister yesterday.

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Speaker 1: What did you choose to focus on?

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Speaker 3: So yesterday I grilled the Chief Minister from eight thirty

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Speaker 3: in the morning till six o'clock last night, and I

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Speaker 3: have to say it was a pretty lackluster performance on

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Speaker 3: his part. We have cause honed write in on the budget,

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Speaker 3: the state of our financial disarray, what the government's plans

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Speaker 3: were around the so called debt ceiling, which does absolutely

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Speaker 3: nothing and delivers no consequence. If a government is to

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Speaker 3: blow that fifteen billion dollar cab. If you can absolutely

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Speaker 3: believe that we focused around transparency. Of course, a very

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Speaker 3: topical issue is the fact that the Gunner government have

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Speaker 3: banned the Anti Independent from press conferences and of course

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Speaker 3: the public service don't respond to the Anti Independent either.

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Speaker 3: We had the Auditor General, the Ombudsman, the IKAC, you

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Speaker 3: name it. So it was a very busy day.

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Speaker 1: Well I listened to that part actually just before six

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Speaker 1: o'clock yesterday with great interest when you're asking questions about

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Speaker 1: the Anti Independent, and found it quite bizarre that no

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Speaker 1: questions at all were being answered.

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Speaker 2: You know. To me, I do think that every media.

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Speaker 1: Outlet reserves the right to be able to approach the

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Speaker 1: government and indeed departments and try their best to get

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Speaker 1: questions answered.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right. The government of the day doesn't get

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Speaker 3: to pick and choose what media it talks to. I

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Speaker 3: mean that in itself sends alarm bells about the level

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Speaker 3: of scrutiny clearly that the government don't like that's applied

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Speaker 3: by the Anti Independent. So the fact that the Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister just you know, dodged and ducked my questions, I

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Speaker 3: really wanted to ask Jodi Ryan, the CEO of the

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Speaker 3: Department of Chief Mins around whether or not the Public

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Speaker 3: Service had been directed not to comment to the Anti Independent,

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Speaker 3: but the Chief Minister would not let me get to

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Speaker 3: her and ask those questions. We found out that it

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Speaker 3: costs Territories about twelve million dollars to run the Media

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Speaker 3: and Protocol Team in the Department of Chief Minister, and

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Speaker 3: I said, well, what are their KPIs then if they're

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Speaker 3: not responding to the media, what job are they performing

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Speaker 3: for that twelve million dollars? So pretty extraordinary stuff from

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Speaker 3: the Chief Minister. He was very uncomfortable yesterday and clearly

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Speaker 3: had a lot to hide.

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Speaker 1: Well, look, there's another issue I do want to talk

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Speaker 1: about in a moment that comes to the media, and

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Speaker 1: it relates to the Ikak but of course it's not

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Speaker 1: to Naval Gays.

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Speaker 2: As a media outlet ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So I will go to some of the other issues

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Speaker 1: that are indeed very important to a lot of Territorians,

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Speaker 1: and one of those is the budget. Was there more

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Speaker 1: information provided about when the dat is going to be

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Speaker 1: paid down?

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Speaker 3: No, we have the government questions around when they thought

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Speaker 3: we might be heading back towards the surplus. The Chief

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Speaker 3: Minister just repeated his lines over and over again, trying

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Speaker 3: to claim that this debt ceiling was some sort of

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Speaker 3: magical hard ceiling that couldn't possibly be breached, and I

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Speaker 3: put it back on him. I said, well, if you

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Speaker 3: can create a legislation that for a borrowing a cap

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Speaker 3: on borrowing that can't be breached, why don't you make

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Speaker 3: legislation for tougher crime laws that they can't be breached.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's absolutely fascical that they're saying that this

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Speaker 3: cap on spending is actually going to be enforceable. It's

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Speaker 3: not all the government have to do if they want

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Speaker 3: to change it is one waltz back into Parliament and

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Speaker 3: make a higher cap, or two explain why they've hit

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Speaker 3: the cap. So, you know, just a lot of garbage

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Speaker 3: coming out of the government yesterday on spending and no responsibility,

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Speaker 3: and I think that was what really struck a chord

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Speaker 3: with me. We want to again had the Chief Minister

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Speaker 3: blaming the previous COLP government, blaming the Productivity Commission, blaming GST.

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Speaker 3: He blamed anything and everything he could for our extraordinary

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Speaker 3: levels of debt except for his own government's mismanagement of

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Speaker 3: the books. And you know he kept talking about business

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Speaker 3: as usual. Well, business as usual is under his government,

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Speaker 3: not anybody else.

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Speaker 1: Now, I know that you did ask quite a bit

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Speaker 1: about if anyone had tinkered with the COVID nineteen financial statement.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that somebody.

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Speaker 3: Has well because he ordered so prior to last election.

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Speaker 3: If we cast our minds back, the government refused to

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Speaker 3: deliver a budget, and we believe they refused to deliver

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Speaker 3: a budget because they didn't want territories to know prior

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Speaker 3: to the election the true state of the books. Of course,

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Speaker 3: what we had instead was the government hand down this

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Speaker 3: COVID nineteen financial statement, which the Order to General, who

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Speaker 3: is the independent authority who investigates the government's spending, found

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Speaker 3: that some of the details in that report were misleading,

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Speaker 3: and it actually pushed the government to a position where

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Speaker 3: they had to then publish a revised report, you know,

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Speaker 3: within a week or so of the election last August.

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Speaker 3: Where of the view that Treasury would have largely prepared

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Speaker 3: that document, but we've got no doubt that it would

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Speaker 3: have gone up to the Chief Minister's office. They might

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Speaker 3: have made it sound more appetizing than it originally was,

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Speaker 3: and then it got published to the public. Now, we

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Speaker 3: tried to ask questions around that to get to the

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Speaker 3: bottom of that, and again the government, the Chief miniss

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Speaker 3: had just completely dodged questions around it. He wasn't interested.

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Speaker 3: He basically just the lines were just thick and fast

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Speaker 3: yesterday he was just going aground and not really engaging

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Speaker 3: with the process and good faith.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I've been keeping an eye

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Speaker 1: on over the last couple of days, and we certainly

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Speaker 1: spoke about yesterday, is the territory's anti corruption watchdog well

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Speaker 1: Well is being investigated over allegations that it awarded a

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Speaker 1: lucrative contract to a senior director's boyfriend. We caught up

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Speaker 1: with Matt Cunningham, the journalist behind that story, yesterday and

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Speaker 1: he explained that the IKAK Inspector Bruce McClintock sc is

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Speaker 1: investigating the decision to award the contracts to conduct several

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Speaker 1: high level investigations to GAT Risk Management, a consultancy business

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Speaker 1: owned by former South Australian Police officer David McGinlay, who

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Speaker 1: is the company's sole employee.

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Speaker 2: Lea, are you concerned by this situation?

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Speaker 3: Well, we certainly asked the IKAC Commissioner questions all about

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Speaker 3: it yesterday. He did explain the process of managing that

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Speaker 3: conflict of interest and also explain that the IQAQ is

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Speaker 3: exempt from following normal government procurement processes, but that they

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Speaker 3: do have their own, you know, sort of a different

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Speaker 3: process that they do for due diligence. It was very

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Speaker 3: interesting to speak with the k Commissioner about it. Of course,

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Speaker 3: this is under investigation by the Inspector, and the Inspector

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Speaker 3: is the person who investigates the IKAK, the office of

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Speaker 3: the IKAK, all the staff, So that matter is underway

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Speaker 3: and no doubt that mister Cunningham will be keeping a

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Speaker 3: very close eye on this story as it evolved, and.

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Speaker 2: I think we all will be.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that the government need to make that

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Speaker 1: k Inspector report, that report by Bruce McClintock.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that it needs to be made public?

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Speaker 3: Well, it should be, so I asked a lot of

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Speaker 3: questions of the Chief Minister about that yesterday. The Inspector

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Speaker 3: does publish an annual report, so if that matter is

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Speaker 3: concluded by around August this year, I believe that report

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Speaker 3: should be available this year for everyone to see.

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Speaker 1: Now I do understand as well that throughout that questioning yesterday,

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Speaker 1: the outgoing Independent Commissioner Ken Fleming has well the nt

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Speaker 1: users reporting, lashed out at a whistleblower after allegations of

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Speaker 1: a conflict of interest emerged from his office. Now, as

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Speaker 1: part of what was said, he said that he was

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Speaker 1: capable of using his powers as a commissioner to force

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Speaker 1: the Sky News reporter behind that story to divulge his contact.

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Speaker 1: Now we all know obviously yesterday on the show was

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Speaker 1: Matt Cunningham. He is the reporter behind that that report.

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that that is appropriate?

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Speaker 3: Well, look, the IKAK has got very very wide, broad

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Speaker 3: reaching powers in some instances, powers that are stronger than

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Speaker 3: even our police. So you know, I understand that the

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Speaker 3: i K Commissioner may very well have that power. And

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Speaker 3: whether or not he chooses to use it, I suppose

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Speaker 3: will will be a matter for him. But it's important

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Speaker 3: that people do understand the breadth of the powers that

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Speaker 3: an IKQ does have to investigate all sorts of matters

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Speaker 3: of you know, from mal administration right through to corruption.

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Speaker 1: But I mean from a journalist's perspective, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you look at this story, it is something that should

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Speaker 1: be reports. I mean, the general public have a right

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Speaker 1: to know that this investigation is underway. I would think

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Speaker 1: that's certainly my views behind it. So then if a

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Speaker 1: reporter was forced to reveal their source, you know, the

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Speaker 1: reality is it would become increasingly difficult to be able

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Speaker 1: to report stories such as this.

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Speaker 3: Oh, you know, without question, Katie. I mean, and I've

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Speaker 3: got absolutely no doubt about that. And journalists, of course,

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Speaker 3: have got a very strict code in which you operate in.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you rely on people to give you information

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Speaker 3: and you rely on whistleblowers to take that you know,

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Speaker 3: to take that comfort, have that confidence in you to

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Speaker 3: be able to get information that they be appropriate coming

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Speaker 3: to light. But you know, what happens with this will

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Speaker 3: remains be seen. Will the IK use his power? I

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Speaker 3: don't know, but I think there's no question that the

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Speaker 3: IK certainly does have that power. And you know, if

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Speaker 3: Territorians don't think that that power is appropriate, then that's

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Speaker 3: really a matter for the Parliament.

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Speaker 1: I'll ask you the same question that I asked the

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Speaker 1: Health Minister yesterday, and it does follow on from that

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Speaker 1: report and also follows on from another serious incident involving

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Speaker 1: the I cake a few weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: Do you have confidence in the ikak?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Look, the I cake is a very important office.

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Speaker 3: It has bipartisan support. Mister Fleming or Commissioner Fleming has

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Speaker 3: had to, you know, create that office from nothing. It's

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Speaker 3: highly complex legislation. It's never been done in the territory before.

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Speaker 3: Of course. Mister Fleming his last day is the fifth

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Speaker 3: of July, and we've got the new commissioner coming in

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Speaker 3: literally the day after on the sixth of July, and

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Speaker 3: no doubt he will. The new commissioner will you know,

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Speaker 3: take a look at how everything's been going and add

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Speaker 3: his own lens on things. But you know, it's an

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Speaker 3: important process, and it's an evolving process, and you know,

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Speaker 3: ultimately I called on in Parliament a couple of weeks

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Speaker 3: ago that there should really be a review of the

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Speaker 3: ICAC ACT. I think it's been op rating for long

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Speaker 3: enough now that we need to work out what's working

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Speaker 3: and what's not working and where things can be improved

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Speaker 3: going forward. And I certainly hope that's something the new

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Speaker 3: Commissioner will be looking at.

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Speaker 1: Would you have anticipated that there would be more come

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Speaker 1: out of the eye caack at this point.

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Speaker 3: Ah, Look, it's very hard to tell. I mean you

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Speaker 3: could either take this as there's there's not that much

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Speaker 3: corruption in the territory as people perhaps would have thought,

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Speaker 3: which is a really good thing. Perhaps, you know, one

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Speaker 3: important role of the EYECACK is actually the educational component.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of you know, members of the

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Speaker 3: public probably think it'd be great to have more heads rolling,

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Speaker 3: but that's not necessarily of the function of the EYECACK.

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Speaker 3: It's there to really provide, you know, you want to

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Speaker 3: stop those things from happening in the first place, which

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Speaker 3: is much you know, which is a very important function.

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Speaker 3: So it could be because that has all been very

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Speaker 3: effective as well. So ultimately we want we want to

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Speaker 3: give people the right information and the right tools to

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Speaker 3: make the right decisions so that that maladministration, misappropriation, misconduct

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Speaker 3: and corruption and doesn't happen in the.

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Speaker 1: First Well, and I do note that I believe the

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Speaker 1: KA Commissioner Ken Fleming did say yesterday in the estimates

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Speaker 1: that there is still going to be a few reports

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Speaker 1: to come out before he finishes up.

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Speaker 3: Yes, he did, he did confirm that, and so I

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Speaker 3: guess there'll be more to come and we'll have to

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Speaker 3: wait and see what that involves.

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Speaker 1: Now, Lea, just finally we know that today I understand

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Speaker 1: the health minister is in the hot seat.

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Speaker 2: What are you planning on grilling her about?

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Speaker 3: I think territories are very interested in today because, of course,

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Speaker 3: yesterday I tried to ask the Chief Minister a number

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Speaker 3: of COVID questions and he was pretty quick to point

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Speaker 3: a lot of those to the Health Minister. Today, of course,

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Speaker 3: we've had the takeover of Howard Springs with the kicking

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Speaker 3: out of OZMA and the NT taking that over. We've

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Speaker 3: had changes to ppe out there. We've had the scrapping

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Speaker 3: of the rapid antigen testing and the you know, the

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Speaker 3: nurses coming out and all of those types of issues.

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Speaker 3: We've had changes to how we run our orders during hotspots,

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Speaker 3: Lots of change happening in that COVID management space, and

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Speaker 3: so not to mention issues with mental health ramping at

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Speaker 3: our hospitals. So I think today is going to be

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Speaker 3: a very very big day. And Bill, Yeah, the Member

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Speaker 3: for Namagerira, a shadow Minister for Health, will certainly be

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Speaker 3: putting the Health ministers through a paste.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what, it's an interesting week. Estimates

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Speaker 1: is always a very interesting time. And like I said,

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Speaker 1: right from the get go, the opportunity for the independence

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Speaker 1: and also the opposition to be able to get to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of some of those concerns that many territorians

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Speaker 1: have got and to ask plenty of questions. No doubt

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Speaker 1: the week that wills will be interesting on Friday with

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Speaker 1: you all in the studio.

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Speaker 3: I think it will, Katie, that's for sure. And you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a long two weeks, but it's a really important time.

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Speaker 3: And of course the opposition is out there hearing from

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Speaker 3: territories about what's important to them and we then put

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Speaker 3: those questions to government, whether they like it or not. Katie.

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Speaker 3: So it's been a woeful day for them yesterday and

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Speaker 3: I imagine there's more of that to come for the

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Speaker 3: gunn of government.

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Speaker 1: Leafanocchi Aio. It's interesting listening and watching for a political.

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Speaker 2: Nerd like me. I always appreciate your time. Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Thank We rely on people like Katy to tune in.

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Speaker 2: Thank good on you, Leah, thank you.

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Speaker 1: That is the opposition leader there, Lea Fanocchiaro. Now, if

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Speaker 1: you do want to call through this morning, eight nine

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Speaker 1: four one one O four nine is the number.

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Speaker 2: You can also send us a text if you'd like.