1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about the tactics 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: used by the world's most successful people to get so 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: much out of their day. I'm your host, doctor Amantha Imba. 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist, the founder of behavioral science consultancy Inventium, 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: and I'm obsessed with finding ways to optimize my work day. 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: This episode is another my favorite Tip episode. The title 7 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: is probably pretty self explanatory. It's about my favorite tip 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: from each of the interviews I conduct. So on today's show, 9 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: my guest is Oliver Berkman. Oliver is a Guardian writer 10 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: based in New York. He writes the weekly psychology based 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: column this column Will Change Your Life, which I reckon 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: is the best name for a column that I've ever heard. 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: He's also the author of the antidote Happiness for people 14 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: who can't stand positive thinking. 15 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: So in this. 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: Extract of my chat with Oliver, we talk about his 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: strategies for overcoming procrastination and deliberately getting in float, which 18 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: I thought were fascinating. So let's hear about how Oliver 19 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: does that. 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 3: This is just a thing that I sort of discovered 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 3: as a result in my sort of earliest. 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: Involvement with meditation. 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 3: Back when not literally everybody was doing it, though not 24 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 3: that long ago. I think it's just a very interesting 25 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 3: point about motivation and procrastination that we there is actually 26 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 3: a distinction that we usually fail to draw, that when 27 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 3: we say we can't work, we really mean that we 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 3: can't make ourselves feel like working. And it's an important 29 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 3: distinction because it is possible a lot of the time 30 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: to just let go of the need to feel like working, 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 3: and then it's possible to sort of just work alongside 32 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 3: that feeling. I think this really needs even since I 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 3: wrote about it in my last book, I feel like 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 3: I want to add at a nuance, which is that 35 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 3: it's possible to hear what I'm saying and take it 36 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: as a reason to sort of bear down on yourself 37 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 3: and be very sort of aggressive towards yourself and tell 38 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 3: yourself that, you know, I'm feeling down or unmotivated, but 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 3: I'm just going to you know, I've got a scream 40 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 3: at my internal voice to shut up so that I 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: can so that I can plow on. And I really 42 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 3: don't want it to have that. 43 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: Implication. 44 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 3: The idea is not that you can always force yourself 45 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 3: to work, no matter your emotional state, I think that's 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 3: just not true. Often, I, you know, back in the day, 47 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 3: found myself in the situation of not wanting to do 48 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 3: something that I knew actually I sort of in a 49 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 3: higher sense did want to do because it was important 50 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: to me, and then sort of looking for ways to 51 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: get motivated to do it, to sort of change my 52 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 3: mindset and feel excited about it, or you know. And 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 3: the obviously, the world of self help is full of 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 3: a million dubious techniques for ginning yourself up in that way. 55 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 3: And yet what I realized was that it actually is 56 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 3: it's not clearing the path to doing more work. It's 57 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 3: actually putting another obstacle in the way of doing work, 58 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 3: because it is reinforcing that belief that you need to 59 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 3: get your feelings in order before you can work. And 60 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,399 Speaker 3: the crazy thing is that you know, your emotions are 61 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: not something that you can easily control at all. Your 62 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,679 Speaker 3: actual behavior is something that a lot of people a 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 3: lot of the time find they can control. You can 64 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 3: open the laptop and navigate to the file and type a. 65 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:36,839 Speaker 2: Sentence or two. 66 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: And so if you're telling yourself that you've got to 67 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 3: get your emotions sorted out before you can do that 68 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: you're actually just sort of setting the bar. 69 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: A lot higher. So that's what I mean by that. 70 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: I mean, and it really is that idea of like, 71 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: it's not like I've got to make this feeling of 72 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: reluctance go away. I also haven't got to transform this 73 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 3: feeling of reluctance into excitement and anticipation. It can just 74 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 3: literally be okay, yes both, And you know, I feel 75 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 3: like I don't want to this work. That's totally legitimate 76 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 3: and fair, and I can be friendly towards that emotion. 77 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: Oh and at the same time I'm going to be 78 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: doing this work. 79 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: I think it's super helpful advice. Again, very simple, but 80 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: quite a different way of looking at things. And I 81 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: guess it's like it's a good segue into thinking about 82 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: how you overcome writer's block. Obviously, your work is as 83 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: a writer, You write books, you write a column that 84 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: you have to file every week. What are the strategies 85 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: that you've found most effective aside from that one in 86 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 1: terms of overcoming that horrible feeling of staring at a 87 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: blank word document. 88 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: I mean, this has been an issue for me because 89 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 3: I'm definitely like a I'm definitely. 90 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: Like a sort of recovering perfectionist. 91 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 3: And I'm always a pain to say, Like there's a 92 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 3: really annoying thing about perfect and that people kind of 93 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: use it as a to be self critical, but secretly 94 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:05,720 Speaker 3: to big themselves up. 95 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: You know. 96 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: It's like the thing you're supposed to say at job 97 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 3: interviews when they say your greatest flaws. I'm just I'm 98 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: just too I'm just too conscientious about my perfect output. 99 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 3: I really don't mean it like that, Like I mean, 100 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 3: it screws you up, and it did for a long time, 101 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 3: screw me up. The kind of affections I'm talking about, 102 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 3: there's there's nothing to be proud of. I don't think 103 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 3: people should be ashamed if that's their screw up either. 104 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 3: But but it's not like. 105 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: It's not something that you're secretly, like really happy that 106 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: you have. It is a sort of relentless. 107 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: You know, it just makes it impossible to enjoy doing 108 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: any of the work. And and it's it's just not 109 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,039 Speaker 3: a way to produce stuff. It's not a way to produce. 110 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: The best stuff. It's just it's just it's just hopeless. 111 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: So I mean, this is why I have, you know, 112 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 3: historically struggled with writer's block because Obviously, what's going on 113 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: there for me and I think a lot of people 114 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 3: is you're worried that what you write it's not going 115 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:04,359 Speaker 3: to be good enough, because basically, if you just literally 116 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 3: needed to fill a page with. 117 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 2: Words, like of course. 118 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 3: You could, you know, it's just it's like Jack Nicholson 119 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: in the Shining or whatever, so you can just type, 120 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 3: and so you know. The advice to sort of just 121 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 3: write and try and let your inner editor go to 122 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: sleep for a while, I think is helpful for a 123 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 3: lot of people, but it's usually not quite enough because 124 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 3: of these kind of perfectionist tendencies. 125 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: You actually want what you write. 126 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 3: To be good, and you can sort of try to 127 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: do that non judgmental thing. But if you were completely 128 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 3: non judgmental, you tell yourself, you know, then it wouldn't 129 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 3: be any good at all, And what's the point. I 130 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 3: definitely find that a few pieces of not particularly original advice, 131 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: but certain ones that seem useful to me. 132 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: I do find that a. 133 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 3: Quantitative focus over a qualitative one here. Maybe it's a 134 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,559 Speaker 3: certain number of words a day, maybe it's a certain 135 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 3: amount of time. Just the idea that that you're your 136 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 3: quota for the day will have been fulfilled if you 137 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 3: if you meet one of these quantitative goals, that sort 138 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: of helps shift the focus away from you know, I've 139 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 3: got to write the greatest thing ever something that this 140 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 3: is kind of I have heard now various sort of 141 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 3: celebrated writers doing this, so I don't feel quite so 142 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: sheepish about saying it. 143 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: Something that I have always found very useful is to. 144 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: Is to write a rough draft, print it out, and 145 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 3: then type it back in to. 146 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: The computer. 147 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: Oh can you tell me about like handwrite a draft? 148 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 2: Do you mean? No? No, I do it all but 149 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:51,679 Speaker 2: on the computer. 150 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: Right, So you'd write it on the computer, then you 151 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: print it out and then you retype it. 152 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, as apparently here you guys. 153 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 3: For me, what that means is that, well, one way 154 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: of putting it, I suppose, is that you can sort 155 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 3: of be in a flow state on a good day 156 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 3: during the editing as well, because what's happening when I'm 157 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 3: typing it in again is that I'm making all sorts 158 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: of changes, but I'm making them almost unconsciously, in the 159 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 3: same way that on a good writing day, you're sort 160 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 3: of almost unconscious of the words flowing out, and you're 161 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 3: not doing that very conscious kind of edit. 162 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: You know, obviously a book has to have that phase. 163 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 3: Of editing as well, when you're very consciously just sort 164 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 3: of inspecting every word. But I find that it's this 165 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 3: kind of wonderful compromise because you when you're typing it 166 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 3: in again, you don't have to start from a blank page, 167 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: so you're not worried about like dredging it out of 168 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 3: your soul in some sort of terribly melodramatic and stressful fashion. 169 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 3: But equally you are kind of in that I don't 170 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: know how to describe it. Really, you're in that kind 171 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: of flowy place of fresh writing instead of the inner 172 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 3: editor criticizing every sentence. And the result is that it's usually, 173 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: I think, quite a lot better what you type in again. 174 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 3: And knowing that you're going to do that as well, 175 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,320 Speaker 3: for some weird reason, also makes it easier for me 176 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,719 Speaker 3: to write the first draft, because it's a sort of 177 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: a way of dramatizing to myself. I suppose that nobody's 178 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: going to be reading this, and I mean that's always 179 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: true of one's first draft, but it's hard to sort 180 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: of remember in some deep level, whereas when I'm thinking, like, okay, 181 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 3: you're going to print this out, type it back in, 182 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 3: and like literally tear up the pages that you of 183 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: the first draft. There's something about that that is quite 184 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 3: conducive to dropping the self censorship. I have one other 185 00:09:58,360 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 3: thought about writer's block, if you want to hear it, 186 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 3: but but anyway. 187 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, definitely. 188 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: That was just a very nice point that I think 189 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: I comes from a writer called Paul the Silver who 190 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 3: wrote a book called How to Write a Lot, which 191 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 3: is great and is aimed at academics, but I don't 192 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 3: think it's restricted to academics and its usefulness. His whole 193 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: theme through the whole of that book is just like 194 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 3: how do you write a lot? You write, You make 195 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 3: a schedule, you pick a couple of days hours every 196 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 3: day when you're going to write, and you write to 197 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: those hours. I mean, that's all. That's a good strategy. 198 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 3: But what I really love about the book is this 199 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 3: kind of relentless, kind of bringing down to earth of 200 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 3: the writing process. I guess now he's writing for social 201 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 3: scientists who are writing journal articles, so he can say 202 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 3: things like, you know, look, you're not a poet, you're 203 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 3: not a novelist. Get over yourself. You're just putting some 204 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: words down to explain what you want to say. But 205 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 3: actually I think that's probably quite you sort of I 206 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 3: suppose a novelist, or for or for people like me 207 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 3: who are neither of those two things, you know, not 208 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 3: not novelists. But I hope that I am writing something 209 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 3: kind of in a stylish fashion. But it's just great 210 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 3: to remember that, Like I find anyway to sort of 211 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 3: be like, you're not all that, You're just trying to 212 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 3: get some words on the page. 213 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: You know they'll be there'll be a phase later. 214 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 3: On if you want to kind of like, you know, 215 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 3: get all fancy with your with your sentences. There's something 216 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: about bringing the whole project back down to earth and 217 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: reminding yourself that plumbers do not get plumbers block, and 218 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 3: accountants do not get accountants block, and get over yourself. 219 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 3: The other point that he makes, just to finish off, 220 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: is like it's very strange writer's block. It's the only 221 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 3: it's a very strange example of them. It's actually just 222 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: a description of a situation, right that you're not writing anything, 223 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: but it's but it's sort of rarefied into a diagnosis 224 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,439 Speaker 3: of a of a of a cause of that problem. 225 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 3: It's like, I don't think you really have writer's block, 226 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 3: he would say, I think you know. 227 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: It's just like you haven't written anything, and I don't. 228 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 3: For some mysterious reason, I find something liberating about that. 229 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: That is it for today's show. If you enjoyed it 230 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: and know someone else that would enjoy it, why not 231 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: share this episode with them? And thank you to everyone 232 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: that has been spreading the word about how I work. 233 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: It's one of the ways that the podcast has grown 234 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: since its inception a couple of years ago. Sorry, that 235 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: is it for today's show, and I will see you 236 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: next time.