1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Bunjelung Cargottin woman from Gadighal Country. The Daily oz acknowledges 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: Straight Island and nations. We pay our respects to the 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present. 7 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Tuesday, 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: the fifth of September. I'm Tom Crowley. 9 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 3: I'm Nnicople filling in for Zarah. Tim. It's good to 10 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 3: have you back. It's been a couple of weeks. 11 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 2: It's lovely to be here, my first day back from 12 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: leave and I'm sitting in the chair for Sam and 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk about workplace laws. The government has 14 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 2: introduced legislation which it says will improve protections for gig workers, 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 2: casuals and victims of wage theft. 16 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 4: Closing these loopholes will change their lives. 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 2: But both the opposition and business groups have spoken out 18 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 2: against the move. 19 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 5: This is bad legislation, it's fraud legislation. 20 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: So what will this legislation do and is it likely 21 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 2: to go through. We'll let you know in the deep dive. 22 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: But first Nina to the Reserve Bank. 23 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 3: That's right. They're going to meet today in what will 24 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 3: be Philip Loow's final meeting as RBA governor. I know 25 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 3: you'll be watching closely. 26 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 2: Tom farewell. Phil. 27 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 3: The Bank's board is expected to discuss holding the cash 28 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 3: rate at four point one percent for a third consecutive meeting. 29 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 3: Philip Loow's successor and current Deputy Michelle Bullock, begins a 30 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 3: seven year term as governor on the eighteenth of September. 31 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,639 Speaker 2: Around eight hundred Australians have joined forces to bring legal 32 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: action against a top selling weed killer. The class action 33 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 2: alleges it exposure to round Up weed killer can cause 34 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: cancer due to a possibly carcinogenic ingredient called glypher sate. 35 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: The case against the manufacturer of Roundups being heard in 36 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,640 Speaker 2: the Federal Court in Melbourne in a trial expected to 37 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: last nine weeks. 38 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 3: Over thirty thousand households in Taiwan we're still without power 39 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: at the start of the week after Typhoon Haikui midland 40 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 3: fall on weekend. Thousands were evacuated from their homes across 41 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 3: the island after the typhoon hit the eastern and southern 42 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 3: parts of Taiwan, causing blackouts in around two hundred and 43 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 3: forty thousand houses. 44 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: And the good news, more endometriosis sufferers will be able 45 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: to access specialized care with the expansion of Australia's first 46 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: endometriosis and pelvic paying clinics. Two clinics in Adelaide and 47 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 2: Sydney will take the number of specialized endocare clinics in 48 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 2: Australia from twenty to twenty two. Patients will be able 49 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,519 Speaker 2: to access the clinics by booking an appointment directly. Endometriosis 50 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 2: is believed to affect one in nine people with a 51 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 2: uterus Tom. 52 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:37,720 Speaker 3: It's also Women's Health Week and I think that we 53 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 3: should definitely look at ENDO in the podcast this week. 54 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 3: I know it's something that affects, as you said, so 55 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 3: many people. If you are listening and you've had an 56 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 3: experience with ENDO or difficulty getting a diagnosis, send us 57 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 3: a dialm on Instagram because we'd love to talk to 58 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:51,399 Speaker 3: you for the podcast. 59 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 2: So, Nina, the government introduced a bill yesterday that they 60 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: call the Closing Loopholes Bill. It's all about workplace laws. 61 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: It covers quite a few different bits and pieces of 62 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 2: how things work in workplaces. There's some stuff on reforms 63 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 2: for casual employees, there's some stuff about workers in the 64 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 2: gig economy, and there's some stuff about wage theft. So 65 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: three pretty hot button issues I think for a lot 66 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:19,799 Speaker 2: of young people in the workplace. There may be some 67 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 2: people listening who are casuals, or perhaps victims of wage theft, 68 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: or maybe they work in the gig economy. Some issues 69 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 2: that I think will be of interest to many people, 70 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 2: so I'm looking forward to chatting about them. 71 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 3: I was going to say, when you hear industrial relations reform, 72 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 3: it doesn't exactly scream this will impact you in your 73 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: day to day life. But I mean most of us, 74 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 3: at some point in our lives do work. A lot 75 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: of people listening will have done their stint in a 76 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 3: casual job or are in casual work. Why don't we 77 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 3: start there with what this bill will mean for casual workers. 78 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 3: And I will say, Tom, we actually did kind of 79 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 3: hint at this a little while ago on the podcast, 80 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: So if you want to dive deeper into that, I 81 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: will put it in the show notes that in the meantime, 82 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 3: why don't you just give us a refresher on what 83 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: this bill will mean. Yeah. 84 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: Sure, So casual workers we're talking there about, you know, 85 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: workers who generally will get a slightly higher level maybe 86 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: of hourly pay, but they don't have the same sort 87 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: of permanence and security of a full time or a 88 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: part time employee. So for example, as we said at 89 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: the top, I've just come back from two weeks of 90 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: annually leave. That's something generally that casual workers don't get. 91 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: Now that arrangement works for some employers and for some employees, 92 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 2: if you know, casual sort of flexibility about when you 93 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 2: work is something that works for you, perhaps because you're studying. 94 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 2: That may be a positive. But one thing that the 95 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: government has identified and that it's seeking to change in 96 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 2: this bill is the prevalence of people who are employed 97 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 2: as casuals but effectively are permanent employees. They work just 98 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: like a full time or a part time employee. So 99 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: the regularity, a regularity of ours, yeah, and the style 100 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: of work, and they would like to be treated like one, 101 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 2: but at the moment, there's no legal right that they 102 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: have to be employed on a permanent basis. That something 103 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 2: that this bill is seeking to change. So it would 104 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: identify casuals who for all intents and purposes are basically 105 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: permanent employees, and give them the right to seek that permanence, 106 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 2: to get the leave, to get all the other sort 107 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 2: of entitlements for example, you know, notice of firing, all 108 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: the sorts of things that come from being a permanent employee. 109 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: And again we went into more detail about that in 110 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: the episode we did a little while ago. But that 111 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 3: won't be compulsory for everybody. You'll be able to opt 112 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 3: in if it's of benefit to. 113 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: You, right, that's right, And the government says it'll be 114 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: a relatively small proportion of people who will want to 115 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,479 Speaker 2: do this. Again, the sort of people who want that 116 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 2: job security, would rather be treated as full time employees, 117 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: would be given the option to seek that out. 118 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: So one of the other things that this bill seeks 119 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 3: to address is wage theft. This is something we've heard 120 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 3: about in the news much too regularly for comfort, I 121 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 3: would say, in the last year or so. What will 122 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: this bill seek to do in that space? 123 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you're right, it is something I don't know 124 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: if you remember, way back in I think it was 125 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, the seven eleven stories that kind of kicked 126 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: off a whole series of conversations about wage theft. There 127 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 2: are a lot of stories, in particular restaurants where staff 128 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 2: were being underpaid. 129 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 3: Some of our biggest supermarkets, universities. 130 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and that's really brought prominence to this issue 131 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: of wage theft. Now, the term wage theft is itself 132 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: a bit of a controversial one. Generally speaking, it's taken 133 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 2: to apply to any form of not paying employees what 134 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 2: they are legally entitled to. So that may be their wage, 135 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: it may be their super it may be their leave 136 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 2: entitlements if they're permanent employees and they have leave and 137 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: they're not getting paid that leave. There are a number 138 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,480 Speaker 2: of different forms that it can take, and it's pretty widespread. 139 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: Those news reports that we talked about, they're not isolated stories. 140 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: We don't know exactly how much of it goes on 141 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: in Australia, in part the nature of it. We don't 142 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 2: know often when wage theft is occurring, but various estimates 143 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: put it sort of a several billion dollars a year 144 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: worth of underpaid wages. That's a pretty significant size of 145 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 2: the problem and something that this bill is seeking to address. 146 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: In part, so, there is already a system for wages 147 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: that are underpaid sort of accidentally to be identified. Businesses 148 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: are encouraged to come forward and say we made a 149 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 2: mistake and to correct that and to repay and we'll 150 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 2: move on. What this bill would do is take some 151 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 2: of those more serious and specifically deliberate instances of underpayment 152 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: and make that a crime, which it currently isn't. And 153 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: so that's what this bill will do. They'll be tougher 154 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 2: fines first of all for really serious cases of deliberate underpayment, 155 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: but there will also be the potential for a criminal 156 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 2: offense and up to ten years in jail for employers 157 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 2: who deliberately steal from their workers. 158 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 4: It is and should be a criminal offense for the 159 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 4: worker to be taking money from the till, but it 160 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 4: is not a criminal defense in most of Australia for 161 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 4: the employer to be taking money from the wages. 162 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 3: One of the other things that this bill seeks to 163 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: address is the treatment of gig workers. Workers in the 164 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: gig economy, things like uber eats. 165 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: And will Deliver ever the one that I thought of, 166 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: but that doesn't exist anymore, does it. Yeah, So this 167 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: one is similar in some ways to what the bill's 168 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: doing for casual workers. Again, it's about identifying a group 169 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: of workers who don't get the same entitlements as full 170 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 2: time or part time employees and trying to go some 171 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 2: way to changing that situation. So gig workers in general 172 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: are not officially considered employees at all. So if you 173 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 2: work for something like a delivery company, typically a lot 174 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: of delivery companies will employ their drivers as independent contractors, 175 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: where you're actually treated almost like you're an individual small business, 176 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: a sole trader who has this relationship with the delivery 177 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: company that you work for. You're not an employee, which 178 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: means you don't get leave, you don't get notice of termination, 179 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: but you also don't get any regular hours at all. 180 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 2: It's a completely different arrangement currently to an employee employer relationship. 181 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: And once again the purpose of this bill is to 182 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 2: identify gig workers whose actual patterns of work resemble that 183 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: of an employee and to allow them to then have 184 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 2: minimum paying conditions just like any other employee does. So 185 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: in the Australian employment system, we have the Fair Work Commission, 186 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 2: our sort of independent workplace UMPIRE. If you like the 187 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: Fair Work Commission, it sets minimum wages, it sets minimum 188 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 2: conditions for employees in all sorts of work. Typically at 189 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 2: the moment it doesn't cover a lot of these gig workers. 190 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 2: But the purpose here would be to carve out at 191 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: least some gig workers and to allow the Fair Work 192 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 2: Commission to set those minimum paying conditions it does for 193 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: other workers. 194 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 4: If you are an employee, you have a whole series 195 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: of rights. If you're not an employee, all of those rocks, 196 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 4: all of them fall off a cliff. What we want 197 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 4: to do is turn that cliff into a ramp. 198 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 2: And so there again is employment Minister Tony Burke, I 199 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: guess just s emphasizing it's not necessarily about making gig 200 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: workers identical in the way that they're treated to a 201 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: full time or a part time employee, but making the 202 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: difference between the employment conditions of a gig worker and 203 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 2: everybody else slightly less severe, a bit more like a 204 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: ramp than a cliff. 205 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 3: This legislation was only introduced yesterday, but it's already faced 206 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: a huge amount of criticism from the business community in 207 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 3: the political sphere. What are the criticisms being made about 208 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 3: these reforms? 209 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: Well, the criticisms essentially amount to this is an additional 210 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: cost and a burden on businesses and that's a pretty 211 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 2: common disagreement in this sort of area. It's there to say, 212 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 2: any discussion about what the rules should be that govern 213 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: employees and employers, you're going to run into disagreement between 214 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: employees and employers in a sense because you know, what's 215 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 2: good for one can be not so good for the other. 216 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: That's a very common part of industrial relations, workplace relations 217 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 2: in general. 218 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 3: And it's pretty conventional the way that politics fall on 219 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 3: either side of that debate, right, It follows a pattern. 220 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, and both both parties will proudly say this 221 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: labor you know, talks about its history in the union movement, 222 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 2: you know, on the side of employees, and the Liberal 223 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 2: Party talks about it's standing up for businesses. It will 224 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: often talk about small businesses in particular. So it's not 225 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: surprising that that's what we've seen here. And business groups 226 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: like the Business Council of Australia and others have identified 227 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: a couple of things. One that this might take away 228 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 2: from flexibility for businesses. So obviously, if you look at 229 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: a casual employee relationship or a gig economy type relationship 230 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 2: from the employer's perspective, that gives the employer additional flexibility 231 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: in the way that they structure their workforce and structure 232 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: their costs, and they say that these changes would affect that. 233 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 2: And then when it comes to wage theft, their concern 234 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 2: there is that it might be too confusing, the rules 235 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 2: might be difficult to comply with, that this might put 236 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: too much of a burden. Business groups were particularly concerned 237 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: about the possibility of punishing unintentional wage theft, and the 238 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:31,280 Speaker 2: government hasn't really done that with this bill, so that's 239 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 2: muted one of the criticisms. But in general it's a 240 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 2: package the business groups have been concerned about, and by 241 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: extension the coalition Opposition leader Peter Dutton has said that 242 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: it's an economy wrecking plan, that it would create more uncertainty. 243 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: He described it as in particular a nail in the 244 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 2: coffin for small businesses. In particularly because small businesses don't 245 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: necessarily have an HR department, you know, they might find 246 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 2: it harder to comply with any rules, and the government, 247 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 2: in recognition of that, has some carve outs in this 248 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 2: bill for businesses that have fifteen or fewer employees. What 249 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,439 Speaker 2: does that mean essentially just that they have either sort 250 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 2: of slightly easier rules to comply with, or they get 251 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 2: extra assistance to make sure that they can comply in 252 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 2: an attempt to minimize the burden on them. But it's 253 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 2: fair to say that hasn't been enough to plicate business 254 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 2: group opposition. 255 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 5: Well, I think what it clearly demonstrates is it's bad 256 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 5: for business. I mean, if it's bad for small business, 257 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 5: it's bad for medium sized business. If it's bad for 258 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 5: medium sized business, it's bad for bigger businesses. So I mean, 259 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 5: where do you draw the line. 260 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: So that's the CEO of the Australian Chamber of Commerce 261 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: and Industry, Andrew mckeller. They're still certainly not impressed with 262 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 2: the general direction of what the government's proposing. 263 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 3: But he's not in Parliament. It's not for him to decide. 264 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 3: So what's going to happen now, Tom? 265 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so it's ultimately up to the politicians to decide, 266 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,280 Speaker 2: and as usual with this stuff, it comes down to the. 267 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 3: Senate because the House of wraps, the government has the 268 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: numbers they need to get it through. 269 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,079 Speaker 2: Took the words right out of my mouth. They need it, 270 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: So yeah, it's all about getting the numbers in the Senate, 271 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: where the Government doesn't have full control, and when it 272 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: doesn't have the support of the coalition, the rule is 273 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: Greens plus two. That's what the government needs in the Senate. Now, 274 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: nobody's locked in as such yet because the bill only 275 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: came out yesterday. They need a little bit more time, 276 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 2: but Employment Minister Tony Burke says he's had discussions with 277 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: the Greens and other members of the cross Bench. He's 278 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: confident there'll be enough goodwill to get. 279 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 3: The bill passed. Thanks for listening to The Daily Os 280 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: this morning. If you have any suggestions, feedback questions on 281 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: this episode and you're listening in Spotify, there's a little 282 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: question box under the episode description. We'd love to hear 283 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 3: from you. Sam and Zara will be back tomorrow. Have 284 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: a great day.