1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: This is the Parenting in Perspective podcast. It's a happy 2 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: Families podcast. My name's doctor Justin Colson. Thanks so much 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: for being a part of these in depth podcast discussions. 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: This is episode three of a really engaging series that 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: we've just started where we dig deep with a wide 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: variety of guests to unpack and discover what can make 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: parenting incredible as well as finding out how families flourish. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: Today's guest Jessica Rowe, along with her husband Peter Overton. 9 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: The two of them combined well, I think we could 10 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: fairly comfortably say that their Australian News Media Royalty. Jess 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: has been honored with a Member of the Order of 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: Australia for her long broadcasting career as well as her 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: untiring work in mental health advocacy. Jess first appeared on 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: our TV screens in the mid nineteen nineties and over 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: the years has co hosted Network ten's First at five News, 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: has read news on weekend Sunrise, and I hosted Studio 17 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: ten and The Today Show. Aside from being one of 18 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: the most recognizable faces on Ossie TV, Jessica Rose also 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: a podcaster, a published author, a keynote speaker and more importantly, 20 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: mum to two beautiful young ladies. And Jess's also a 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: self confessed to crap housewife, so I began by asking 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 1: just why she sees herself this way. 23 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 2: I've got a beautiful husband. I've been married to my 24 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: darling husband, Peter for seventeen years. We've got two gorgeous daughters, 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: Allegra who is thirteen and Giselle, who's eleven. And why 26 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,679 Speaker 2: I'm a proud crap housewife is first and foremost. I 27 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: think it's so important not to take ourselves too seriously. 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: I've found laughter for me has been a wonderful way 29 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: to get through difficult times. But also I think to 30 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 2: laugh at myself and what I have embraced. The older 31 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: I get, the more comfortable I am in my skin, 32 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: but the more comfortable I am with being open about 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: my imperfection. I have struggles, like all of us do. 34 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: I am a crap housewife. I'm a terrible cook. Cooking 35 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: does not interest me. 36 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 1: Now I've got to interrupt you there, Jess, because I mean, 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not. I love the snort. I'm not 38 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: an Instagram person at all. My team looks after my 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: Instagram for me, but I do pop on there every 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: now and again, and you're one person that I have 41 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: followed for years on Instagram simply because of the relationship 42 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: that we share. In fact, let me go on a 43 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: quick tangent from this tangent. The first time that you 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: and I met, I was sitting in the green room 45 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: at Studio ten, Channel ten. We were getting ready to 46 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: go on the TV and you stepped into the room 47 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: with wide eyes. You looked at me with this huge 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: smile and said, excuse me, are you doctor Justin Coulson, 49 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: which was the funniest thing. I'm thinking to myself, what 50 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: how did this have? This is one of those twilight 51 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: Zone moments. I'm the one that's supposed to be saying, 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: aren't you Jessica Rowe, And you're looking at me going 53 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: because you've been reading some of my articles in the 54 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,079 Speaker 1: newspaper and you came in just gushing about how helpful 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: my articles were made my day, and so pretty much 56 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: from then, I've followed you on Instagram because I was like, 57 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: anybody who makes me feel that good, I've got to 58 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: be involved in some kind of a relationship with, even 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: if it's just on social media. With your bajillion other fans. 60 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: But what cracks me up about your social media feed 61 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: is almost daily you take photos of the evening meal 62 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: that you prepare. And what I love about this is, 63 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: and please forgive me for being a little bit bold 64 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: when I say this, but you're kind of you're a celebrity, right. 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: You've got celebrity status, whether you're comfortable with the term 66 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: or not. You've got a huge following, and you could 67 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: probably eat in fancy restaurants or at least get uber 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: eats every night of the week for the rest of 69 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: your life. You could never ever cook, but instead you're 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: kind of like, no, well, I'm a housewife and I 71 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: am cooking, but I'm hopeless at it. But I'm going 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:00,839 Speaker 1: to celebrate that anyway. And so you're Your Instagram feed 73 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 1: is full of baked beans on toast, and it is 74 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: baked beans. 75 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: On toast, mince many different ways every way. Spaghetti bolonnaise 76 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 2: last night, So I'm probably going to reinvent that spag 77 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: bold and mince either Shepherd's pie to night, make some 78 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 2: mashed potato, put it on the top, or do something 79 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: else with it. I'm not quite sure, because I think 80 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: mince is a highly undiracted meat. You cannot overcook it, 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 2: you can't burn it. And also kids will eat it. 82 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 2: The number of times when I would attempt to do 83 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: something different or follow a recipe or do something a 84 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: bit fancy, my daughters will go, I don't like it, 85 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,160 Speaker 2: don't want to eat it. So that is very demoralizing. 86 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: Have you tried the master chef praise like? Have you 87 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: stepped in and thought, no, tonight, we're going to do something. 88 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 2: You just know life is too short for me. I 89 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 2: appreciate that for some people they find that relaxing, but 90 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: for me, I would put my fork in my eye 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 2: attempt some complicated meal. But you know what what brings 92 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,559 Speaker 2: me joy, though, is my daughters love my spag bowl. 93 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 2: And a number of years ago my youngest daughter said 94 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: to me, Mommy, this is so good. You should be 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: on Mastership. And that was enough for me to get 96 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 2: that endorsement from my girls. And that is why I 97 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 2: suppose I do post my everyday life on Instagram, what 98 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 2: I cook for my family, my messy house, my baskets 99 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: of laundry, because it's a way of sort of saying 100 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: we're all in this together. I mean, I know that's 101 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: a terrible cliche. But it's sort of I want to 102 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: be honest about my life and what our real life 103 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 2: looks like. And what I get from my Instagram is 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: I've met this wonderful community of fellow crap housewives. We 105 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: give each other, you know, recipes, we give each other 106 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: kind of virtual pats on the back and say good 107 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: on you, and all those sorts of things which we 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 2: now I think need more than ever as opposed to 109 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 2: feeling like, oh, my goodness, I'm not good enough. Because 110 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: you know, social media can be good, but it also 111 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: can be negative in the sense that often people will 112 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: look at other people's Facebook, Instagram, whatever and sort of 113 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 2: feel inadequate and think, oh no, my life doesn't look 114 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: like that. What's wrong with me? So let's take the 115 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 2: pressure off one another. 116 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: I just there's so many things that I want to 117 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: pick up on there, and I'm not going to my 118 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: brain can't possibly pull them all together. But a couple 119 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 1: of things that I quickly want to highlight. First of all, 120 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: your daughters love your spaghetti bolonnaise and think that it's 121 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: good enough to be a master chef like that, in 122 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 1: and of itself, sends I think a really profoundly important 123 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: message to mums or even dads who are listening to 124 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: this conversation like it's okay to be okay. And it's 125 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: not that it's a celebration of mediocrity, because you've got 126 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: extraordinary strengths and have had extraordinary successes in a range 127 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: of places. But my sense is you're looking at what 128 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: your strengths are and saying, well, I'm going to play 129 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 1: to my strengths and I'm just going to manage the 130 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: other stuff, and I'm going to be okay with just 131 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: managing the other stuff and not expecting perfection in every 132 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: single domain. That's what I'm hearing, and. 133 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: You're so right justin it was something that took a 134 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 2: lot of time for me to get to a place 135 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 2: where I could realize that I am enough that I 136 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 2: don't have to be perfect at everything in my life. 137 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 2: Parenting is not a competition. Life isn't a competition, and 138 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: I have come to realize that, yes, there are some 139 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 2: things that I'm very good at, and I will play 140 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: to my strengths, but at the same time, I will 141 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: embrace my imperfection and embrace my vulnerability and realize that 142 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: that is okay. Part of that is with humor laughing 143 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 2: at myself, but also embracing the fact that I am 144 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: a proud craft housewife. But that's okay, because no, I'm 145 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: not good at that, But there's plenty of other things 146 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: that I am good at and I can put my 147 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: energy into. 148 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: Now. I want to pick up on something else that you've 149 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: talked about, because you've alluded a couple of times already 150 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: to some of the challenges that you've had in your 151 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: life and the way they've refined and directed your thinking 152 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: to where it is now, this need to laugh at 153 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: life and be relaxed about things. You've got this profile, 154 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: the fame, if you will, because of the extraordinary work 155 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: that you've done over the years in journalism, and you've 156 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: been very, very public as a personality. But just because 157 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: everyone knows who you are, and just because you've got 158 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: the TV life, it doesn't mean the life's easy. And 159 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: over the years, you've written and spoken a lot about 160 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: some of the major challenges that life has thrown your way. 161 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: I recall that you said when you went through IVF 162 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: you felt like you were a failure as a as 163 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,599 Speaker 1: a mum and a failure as a woman. 164 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: And absolutely I felt in that way, and I think 165 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: what I is important to get across too, is that yes, 166 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 2: I'm in the public eye, but each and every one 167 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: of us has a story, and just because I'm in 168 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: the public eye doesn't make my story either more profound 169 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 2: or important or meaningful. It's just I suppose it gives 170 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: me a chance to talk about it, because I'm a 171 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 2: huge believer in there has to be something more meaningful 172 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: that comes out of having a profile. Both of my 173 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: parents taught me in different ways about the importance of 174 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: giving back. So for me, I feel very passionately about 175 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 2: sharing parts of my story because it isn't just necessarily 176 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: something that's happened to me. It's something that impacts on 177 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 2: so many of us. So speaking about IVS is something 178 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: that I do talk about because Darling Allegra, who's now thirteen, 179 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 2: we had her through IVS. And I was someone who 180 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: when I in my early life, I was someone who 181 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: I was a perfectionist. I was ambitious with my career. 182 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 2: I had ideas about how my life would turn out, 183 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: and if I worked really hard and did all the 184 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 2: right things, I'd tick all the right boxes and everything 185 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: would fall into place. Part of that then included when 186 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: I met my darling husband we got married. Part of 187 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 2: that then was, of course, I'm going to be a mum, 188 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: and that's something that will come easily, that will be natural, 189 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: that won't be won't be a challenge. I had no 190 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 2: idea that I would have problems becoming pregnant. And when 191 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 2: I did realize that that it wasn't going to come 192 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 2: easily to us, I did feel like a failure because 193 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: there's almost that I don't know why, but there's sometimes 194 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: that innate part of us as women that you think, 195 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: if I can't be a mother, there's something missing, there's 196 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: something wrong with me. Part of being a woman for me, 197 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: very much is about yes, I can be a mom 198 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: and I will be a mother. And when I was 199 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 2: confronted with that question mark over, you know what, maybe 200 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: maybe this won't happen for me, I did feel like 201 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 2: a failure because I thought, well, who am I now? 202 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 2: I had to find myself through my early life, my 203 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: sort of career. Then I was now a wife, and 204 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 2: then I was thinking, now I'm going to be a mom, 205 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: and I thought, well, if I can't be a mom, 206 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: what does that mean for me as a woman? And 207 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: I think that was a very difficult confronting time for me, 208 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: and then for anyone who goes through IVS, that is 209 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: such a rollercoaster of a time, and anyone who goes 210 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: through it, I think deserves a Bravery medal because nothing 211 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: prepares you for this terrible but also wonderful journey of 212 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 2: am I going to be pregnant? Or is this going 213 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: to work? But nothing is guaranteed and nothing prepares you 214 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: for that. And how I used to try and manage 215 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: my expectation and that can be so crushing, But how 216 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:22,920 Speaker 2: I tried to manage that was I always would be hopeful, 217 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: and I think hope in our lives, regardless of what 218 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: it might be that we're going through, hope is so 219 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: important and I would cling onto hope. And I think 220 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: for all of us when we are going through challenges, 221 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: you need to cling onto something. And we were very 222 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: lucky because we were able to have a baby at 223 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: the end of our IVF cycles, and I appreciate that 224 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 2: for many other couples who go through it, that isn't 225 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 2: going to happen. And that is such a heartbreaking, painful 226 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 2: tearor thing to go through, and especially when you feel 227 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: like it's just you going through IVF nothing prepares you 228 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: for the sort of force of emotion that can take 229 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 2: over you. And I think it's made me very mindful 230 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 2: of other families, other couples, and the importance of being sensitive, 231 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: because often people would sort of say what they thought 232 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: was a nice or amusing thing to Peter and I about, Oh, 233 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: come on, you two, when are you going to hurry 234 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 2: up and have a family, you know, get on with it, 235 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: all of those sorts of things exactly, and not realizing 236 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 2: that we're in fact going through IVF at the time, 237 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 2: and we were desperate to have a family. So I 238 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 2: think it's really important to be sensitive in our conversations 239 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: with those around us, or those close to us, or 240 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: even just in casual conversation with people that we might 241 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: know so well. We never know what other people are 242 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: going through and the sorts of struggles that they are 243 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 2: trying to deal with. And that's why for me, I've 244 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: always been and as I get old and more open 245 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 2: about what I've been through, because I know when I 246 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: hear other people's stories, it's helped me enormously feel less alone, 247 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: because when you do go through something like IVF, you 248 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: feel like you're the only one and no one else understands, 249 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: and no one else has been there, and in fact, 250 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: there are plenty of people who do understand or are struggling, 251 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: And I think perhaps if there are people listening who 252 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: are going through this or considering it, just go gently 253 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 2: on yourself and if you can hold on to that 254 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 2: hope and don't give up. 255 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: I want to pick up on what you said about hope. 256 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: It was a recurring theme as much as you were 257 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: talking about how you felt like a failure, and it 258 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: was such a trying and invasive I think with out 259 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: you're saying it explicitly. Underlying everything that you're saying is 260 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: there's the physiological invasiveness of the IVF process, which is 261 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: I guess it's almost traumatizing just physically to go through 262 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: what you have to, but then the psychological invasiveness, this 263 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: constant it's that wave up and down and up and 264 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: down again and again. Is it going to work this time? 265 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: Is it going to work this time? What happens if 266 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't work this time? We're going through all of 267 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: this and what if? And this idea of hope that 268 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: you've tapped into is something that I was really captured 269 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: by a number of years ago when I was back 270 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: at university and I was lecturing and doing the whole 271 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: academic thing. Hope is different to optimism because hope isn't 272 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: just saying I think good things are going to happen. 273 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: I hope good things are going to happen. I believe 274 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: in a positive future. Hope has three components that all 275 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: need to be present so that we can be hope 276 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: full instead of hopeless. And I heard those three components 277 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: in your story. The first is that you've got to 278 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: have a goal. People without goals or direction or vision 279 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: or something that they're working towards, something they're striving for, 280 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: are not hopeful. They're hopeless. If there's no point getting 281 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: up and try to do whatever, then you're not going 282 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: to be hopeful. You're going to be hopeless. So you've 283 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: got that goal or that vision. The second thing that 284 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: you need to have though as a pathway, and that's 285 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: obviously what IVF was for you. It gave you hope 286 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: because it was at least a pathway, whereas nothing else 287 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: could even give you any hope at all. This was 288 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: the path. And the third thing that you've got to 289 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: have is an actual belief that you can walk down 290 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: that path and my experience working with families, working with parents, 291 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: working with individuals, not even in a family context, just 292 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: working with people who are feeling hopeless, is more often 293 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: than not, they don't feel hopeless because they don't have 294 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: a goal. Everybody wants something in life, well almost everybody, 295 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: and if they've got a goal, most people can work 296 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: out some kind of a pathway to that goal. It's 297 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 1: very rare that somebody says, this is what I want, 298 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: but it's hopeless. I can never get there. Most people 299 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: are like, well, I could try this or I could. 300 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: You know, there are options and most people can usually 301 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: see them. Where most people fall down is that self 302 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: belief that I can actually walk along the pathway to 303 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: get to the goal. And what I hear you saying is, yeah, 304 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: I had the goal and I had the pathway, but 305 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: the real challenge was picking myself up day after day 306 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: and walking down that path and getting onto the pathway 307 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: that will take me where I want to. 308 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 3: Be exactly, and that sense of keeping going and for us, 309 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: the desire, the yearning, the longing to be parents was 310 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: what kept me going, and I was willing to keep 311 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 3: going for as long as I physically, but more importantly, 312 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 3: emotionally could do it. 313 00:17:54,480 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: So I was determined to keep going. And because I 314 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: was able to do that, I couldn't have There's no 315 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 2: way I wouldn't. I could have done it on my own. 316 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 2: Of course, I had my beautiful husband beside me. We 317 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 2: were in it together, and I think that experience brought 318 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 2: us so close to one another, and I appreciate though 319 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,199 Speaker 2: for some couples that isn't necessarily always the way. But 320 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: we used to hold tight. It makes me emotional thinking 321 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: about it to each other during this time because we 322 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 2: could see how hard it was for each other, but 323 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: we knew we had to hold tight. And also my 324 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: family they knew, so they that was what kept us going, 325 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 2: That we had this safety net of love around us 326 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: that we knew were there for us, that would keep 327 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: us going. And I'll never forget. And again I get 328 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: teary thinking about it, justin when I rang Peace and 329 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: he at the time we're going through the IVS, he 330 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: was working for sixty minutes and he would be traveling 331 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: up to eight months of the year, so we would 332 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 2: have to time the cycles all of those sorts of 333 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: things around his travel. 334 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: And he no stress in that, no stress in that 335 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: at all, No, exactly, just just to add another level 336 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 1: of challenge and burdened to all. 337 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: This, no layers of difficulty there. And he was in Italy, 338 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: he was in Milan, and I remember he was waiting. 339 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 2: He knew that this particular time that I'd be getting 340 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: a call from the clinic about whether or not when 341 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: I'd had the embryo transfer, whether or not the embryo 342 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 2: had sort of taken so to speak, and was growing 343 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: inside of me, And he knew that this particular day 344 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 2: was approaching. So I rang Petie, and I think it 345 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:55,640 Speaker 2: was about two am in Milan, and I said to him, 346 00:19:56,119 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 2: I said, you're going to be a dad. And the 347 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: two of us just sobbed down the phone to each 348 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 2: other because we couldn't believe that, after all this time, 349 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: finally our prayers had been answered. But still it was 350 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 2: early days, because of course, you know, with IVF you 351 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 2: have the tests that much sooner than you do if 352 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: you're sort of trying naturally, so to speak. So this 353 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 2: was only I think it was ten days after the 354 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 2: embryo had been transferred, So there was still so much 355 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 2: sort of waiting and hoping and praying to get to 356 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 2: that twelve week mark. But thankfully, you know, we called, 357 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 2: we called the embryo Milano because because Pete was in 358 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: Milan when I made this call, and thankfully Darling Milano, 359 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 2: who turned into be Allegra, held on and we were 360 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 2: blessed with this beautiful, healthy baby. But it was such 361 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: it was such a time because even to know that, yes, 362 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 2: you know, I was pregnant, there was still that holding 363 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 2: our breath of is it going to last? Will this 364 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 2: pregnancy be viable? Will will she keep growing? And we 365 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: were blessed that Allegra did, and that is why you know, 366 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 2: that hope, that tiny fingernail of hope that we clung 367 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 2: onto early on, it did blossom and we got this beautiful, 368 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 2: healthy baby, and it is such a miracle, and I 369 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: think it's just extraordinary. 370 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I just want to sit and breathe 371 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 1: in that phone call that you had with Pete while 372 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: he was in Milan. I feel like I just want 373 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: to savor that moment, hearing you talk about it and remembering. 374 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: I mean, Kylie and I have been through that one 375 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: six times. I wasn't in Italy when it happened, of course, 376 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: but we've been through that, and I know how it 377 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 1: felt for us, our excitement, our thrill. I can't, I mean, 378 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: I genuinely don't think that I can comprehend what it 379 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: must have been like for you to have that experience. 380 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 1: I appreciate you sharing that you've always been very, very strong, 381 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: explicitly so about honoring your relationship with Peter. This is 382 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: obviously a foundation for your family and a foundation for 383 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: your life, your relationship with him. But I'm curious, with 384 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: both of you working again in such a high profile 385 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: and such a busy way, how have you been able 386 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: to develop the relationship that you've developed. What have been 387 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: the hallmarks, the traditions, the rituals, the things that you've 388 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: done to sustain such a strong and honoring relationship together. 389 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 2: Like anything that matters in life, it takes work and 390 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 2: it's hard. There are times when I know I drive 391 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: PD up the wall, and he drives me up the wall. 392 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: But the thing is at our core, and I knew 393 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: this when I met. He's a good, decent, wonderful man 394 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: and and he's my life partner and PD, I know 395 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 2: that he is always in my corner the same way 396 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:20,439 Speaker 2: I am for him. And we're very different as people, Pete, 397 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: We're like Yin and Yang. Really p D's much more 398 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: sensible and grounded, and I'm much sort of more I 399 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: suppose eccentric, especially as I get older, more eccentric, silly 400 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 2: light and I sort of can sort of drift off 401 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: a bit. But he grounds me whereas I lighten him. 402 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 2: So we're a good partnership. We bring out the best 403 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: in one another, and we're great friends and we're a 404 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: good team. 405 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: How do you make that happen? Though, Like I'm thinking 406 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: of I'm thinking of the couples who are listening to 407 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: this right now, and they're thinking, well, we used to 408 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: like each other. Do you think that I'm like you 409 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: used to be so much fun and now just an 410 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: obnoxious jerk? You know, I'm sure that there's not a 411 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: lot of that going on, but it does happen. How 412 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: do we build that back into a relationship when it's 413 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: snuffed out? In fact, maybe that's a nice segue into 414 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: a question that I wanted to ask you, And again 415 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: it's a bit of a tough one. I mean, you've 416 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 1: dealt with IVF, but you've been very explicit about describing 417 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: what happened when you went through postnatal depression. I remember 418 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: I read somewhere that you said asking for help is 419 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: one of the bravest and best things you can ever do. 420 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 1: You talked about how it saved you, first of all, 421 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 1: going through postnatal depression. Maybe you can talk to that 422 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: just briefly and what you learned from that, but also 423 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: how Peter was able to be a support for you, 424 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: and how you got that spark back into a relationship 425 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 1: that was probably well. The embers were probably a little 426 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: low for sure, with the. 427 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 2: Post natal depression. It really was a time for me 428 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 2: that I felt so ashamed that I had postnatal depression. 429 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 2: I was I finally had this beautiful, healthy baby that 430 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 2: I had longed to have, having gone through IVF, having 431 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 2: said I would never be one of those women who 432 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 2: would complain. Here I was at a time that was 433 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 2: meant to be the happiest time of my life, that 434 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 2: everyone around me was saying, isn't this the happiest time 435 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 2: of your life? And it wasn't. It was the worst 436 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: time of my life. I had never felt such despair 437 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 2: and such darkness, And that is why I felt so ashamed, 438 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 2: because I thought, what right do I have to feel 439 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:46,239 Speaker 2: this way? Someone has everything, beautiful baby, I have this 440 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 2: beautiful husband. I have this amazing extended family around me. 441 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: Anyone looking at us from the outside would have gone, oh, 442 00:25:54,480 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 2: what a lucky woman. I felt, yes, so ashamed, and 443 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: and what struck me even more so during this time 444 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 2: was I was someone who I'd grown up with a 445 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 2: mum who has a mental illness, so I thought I 446 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: understood mental illness. Mum and I had been very public 447 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 2: about her mental illness and had done advocacy work for 448 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: Beyond Blue. My mum has bipolar, so my message up 449 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: until that point publicly had been there should be no 450 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 2: shame in mental illness. We need to talk about it 451 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: like any other physical illness. 452 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: And were feeling ashamed here. 453 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: I was feeling so ashamed and feeling such stigma, and 454 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: it made it so difficult for me to ask for help. 455 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: I was able to pretend to everyone around me how 456 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 2: happy I was. That was the worst thing I could 457 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 2: have done. Because, of course, just because you hide something 458 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 2: or think you will wish it away, depression is not 459 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 2: going to go away. 460 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: When you were redressed. Sixs right, call you and what 461 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: your resist persists. Emotions don't vanish by being vanished. 462 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 2: That's right, And they don't And in fact, they get worse, 463 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: and I got to a point where I really felt 464 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: like I was going crazy, like I was losing my mind. 465 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 2: And I was someone who'd always been very in control. 466 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 2: I was always someone who'd been the cheerleader of our family, 467 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 2: always very chirpy and upbeat, and suddenly here I was thinking, 468 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: what is happening to me? 469 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: How did you get to the point where you could say, 470 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: all right, I need to do something about this? And 471 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: what did you do well for me? 472 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 2: My rock bottom was when I just couldn't sleep, these 473 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 2: endless nights of sleeplessness, these very scary, obsessive thoughts that 474 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: were going through my mind. I thought, I cannot I 475 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 2: cannot live with this any longer. You think, what am 476 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: I going to do? I was heading that way, and 477 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: I knew I had to talk to someone, and so 478 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: I spoke to my mum because I knew she would understand. 479 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,760 Speaker 2: And so Mum was the first person I told. And 480 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: Mum said to me, promise me you will talk to 481 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 2: your doctor, and promise me you will talk to pe D. 482 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 2: So I made my mom those two promises. 483 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: So you still have to talk to Pete. He must 484 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: have known, He must have known that you weren't right. 485 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: No, he had no idea, no idea because I was 486 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: so good at pretending. And also this was he was 487 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: still working for sixty minutes, so he was traveling a lot, 488 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 2: so it was easy to hide what I was feeling 489 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: because he wasn't around. And then he'd come home and 490 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: I'd put on the brave face and I made my 491 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 2: mom those promises, so I knew. I knew I had 492 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: to tell ped and it was the hardest conversation I 493 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 2: think I've ever had in my life because I felt 494 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 2: like I was letting him down, and I was letting 495 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 2: our brand new family down, and I thought, I have 496 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 2: to say something. I have to So I took a 497 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: deep breath and I said, I'm not I'm not doing well. 498 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: Said I'm really frightened. I'm really frightened that I have 499 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: postnatal depression. And Pete, being the beautiful man that he is, 500 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: he took me into his arms and he said to me, 501 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. And that is what I 502 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: needed to hear that night. I didn't need to hear 503 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 2: as often well meaning people might say, Oh, don't be 504 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 2: so ridiculous, why would you be depressed? Oh, we've got 505 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 2: such a great life, so and so it's far worse off. 506 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: What have you got to worry about? You'll be right, 507 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: you know, pull your socks up. You're just imagining it. 508 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: He didn't say any of that. He just reassured me, 509 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 2: and that is what I needed to hear from him, 510 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:03,239 Speaker 2: those words, And it was extraordinary, justin because even just 511 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: by verbalizing what had been going on inside me for 512 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 2: so long, a little bit of weight started to come 513 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 2: off my shoulders and that was so freeing. And I 514 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 2: think for all of us, we are so fearful sometimes 515 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: about putting voice to what's inside of us, but it's 516 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: so important that we do because once we do, it 517 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: loses some of its power and potency, and we need 518 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 2: to share it. And that's why I still talk about 519 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 2: my postnatal depression, even though it was so long ago 520 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 2: and still so painful. It's so important that we do 521 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 2: ask for help when we need it, because I would 522 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: hate to think that there are other women suffering on 523 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 2: their own, thinking that they have to deal with it themselves, 524 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 2: or that they feel so ashamed, and why should they 525 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 2: feel like that? Because I, by putting voice to my 526 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: darkest fears, to asking for help to then going to 527 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: see my doctor the very next day. After I told PED, 528 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: he organized for me to see my doctor, who then 529 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 2: organized for me to see a psychiatrist the very next 530 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 2: day after that. Because I then was able to put 531 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: voice to all of that, I remember saying to my 532 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: psychiatrist during that first appointment and I sat down, and 533 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 2: first thing she said to me was you can stop 534 00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 2: pretending now, and even more weight came off my shoulders. 535 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: She was giving me permission to be open about what 536 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: I was feeling. And then I told her everything, and 537 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 2: I thought she'd say to me, right, you're off to hospital, 538 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 2: we're taking your baby. But she said to me, but 539 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: that's normal, And I said normal, I am a crazy, lady. 540 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: What I've just said to you. She said, no, what 541 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 2: you've told me is normal for someone who has postinatal depression. 542 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: And again some more weight came off my shoulders, and 543 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: she was validating what I was feeling and what I 544 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,760 Speaker 2: came to realize over time with both my psychiatrist, I 545 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 2: was seeing her three times a week, then twice a week. 546 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: I was taking medication. I was being gentler on myself, 547 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 2: but I worked really hard, and what I came to 548 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 2: realize was. I wasn't a failure, I wasn't a bad mum. 549 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 2: What I was feeling didn't mean that I didn't love 550 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: my beautiful baby. I simply had an illness, an illness 551 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 2: that I needed help to get through. And that first 552 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 2: step of help was asking for it. And that can 553 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: be so difficult because you do feel like a failure. 554 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 2: But that's why asking for help is the bravest thing 555 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: that someone can do, because it takes enormous courage to 556 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,280 Speaker 2: do that. But when someone asked for help, it is 557 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: so important that we listen, that we take that seriously 558 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: and we make sure they get the help they need. 559 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 2: Because thanks to me having that conversation with my mum 560 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 2: first of all, and then with Pete and then with 561 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: my doctor and psychiatrist, I was able to get back 562 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 2: to being me. That I was able to focus on 563 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: being a mum. I was able to focus on my 564 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 2: beautiful baby rather than being lost to depression. We need 565 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 2: to talk about it, we need to ask for help 566 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 2: and get the support that you deserve and need, because 567 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 2: the thing is, it is an illness. It needs to 568 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,720 Speaker 2: be treated properly and seriously, but you can get through it. 569 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: So grateful that you shared that Jess. Now, just the 570 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: tables turned after well several years after all of these 571 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: challenges that you went through, and a couple of years ago, 572 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: Pete had some health challenges himself. There were some indications 573 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 1: that I read and I actually haven't talked to you 574 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: about this, but there were some indications that there was 575 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: concern that it was cancer. So what was it like 576 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,799 Speaker 1: for you to now have the opportunity to repay his 577 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: endless ongoing patients and support. Did you find that was 578 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: easy or hard? And especially since you're showing up in 579 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: the media every day and you know you're faking it again. 580 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: You've got to be smiles and interviewing and doing the 581 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: whole TV thing. What was that like to go through 582 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,879 Speaker 1: that with the table's turn? And how is Peter now? 583 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: I presume he's doing fine. 584 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:34,839 Speaker 2: PD is wonderful. His health is fantastic. He did have 585 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 2: some tests that early indications were that it might have 586 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: been a certain type of cancer, but we were so 587 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: lucky we only had to wait twenty four hours to 588 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: get the next lot of results, which thankfully revealed no, 589 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 2: it wasn't cancer. And that twenty four hours, though, was 590 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:02,279 Speaker 2: of course like walking through quicksand your mind goes to 591 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 2: all sorts of places. So I marveled at his strength 592 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: during that time. And I think what's important to recognize, though, 593 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,280 Speaker 2: is that for us it was a very short period 594 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: of time that was that high stress, which I know 595 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,479 Speaker 2: for many other families, First of all, they don't get 596 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,640 Speaker 2: that good news, but also it's a much longer waiting 597 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 2: period for test results. 598 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: We've talked about everything except parenting so far, so I've 599 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: got a well, I want to ask you two quick 600 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: questions about parenting, and then I've got my five rapid 601 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: fire questions that I wrap up every podcast with. You 602 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 1: chose to leave the media, or at least your daily 603 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: obligations to a television show a little bit over a 604 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 1: year ago now or thereabouts. Not everyone can do that. 605 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Not everyone can walk away from their daily work because 606 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: of their personal circumstances. But why did you do it? 607 00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: And what does it meant for you? 608 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: It's such a good question, and I know how blessed 609 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 2: I am that I had a choice that I could 610 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 2: walk away, and that was what made me realize that 611 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: I needed to that I had a choice that I 612 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 2: found myself in a situation where yes, I loved my 613 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 2: job on Studio ten. It's the best job I've ever 614 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 2: had in television. But what I was finding was I 615 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 2: was getting more and more tired. I was becoming more resentful. 616 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 2: I wasn't liking the sort of person that I was becoming. 617 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 2: I was becoming more and more impatient with our daughters 618 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,360 Speaker 2: and just thinking, why am I going through the motions 619 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 2: of this when it isn't bringing me the same level 620 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 2: of joy that it used to. Also, we were coming 621 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 2: to a point, especially with my eldest daughter, where she's 622 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: now a teenager, but she was almost a teenager and 623 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,720 Speaker 2: I was seeing that she needed me to be more present, 624 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: and I thought, I have to make this decision. First 625 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 2: of all, because I'm able to make this decision, but 626 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 2: I knew I needed to be a better parent, and 627 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 2: for me to be a better parent, it was about 628 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 2: being more present. It's the best decision I've ever made. 629 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,600 Speaker 2: And I'm a proud feminist. I support all the different 630 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 2: choices that women make in our lives, and for me 631 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 2: making that choice to lean in for my family, to 632 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 2: be present for my family is the best thing I've 633 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 2: ever done. I'm happier, and because I'm happier. I know 634 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: my kids and my family are happier. 635 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: I love what you said at the beginning, when you 636 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,240 Speaker 1: realize that you're in that privileged position. I came across 637 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,840 Speaker 1: a quote just either we Can, by Latsu who said 638 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: one who knows enough is enough will always have enough. 639 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 2: Isn't that beautiful? 640 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: And then I was thinking about the gift that you've 641 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: given your children in doing this, and I thought, one 642 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: thing that I'm always saying is, just like dollars, the 643 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,919 Speaker 1: currency of our economy, connection is the currency of our relationships. 644 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,160 Speaker 1: And it feels like listening to you, your relationships very 645 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: much in the black now not in the red at all. 646 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: Well, I'm trying. I mean, I think the thing is 647 00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,440 Speaker 2: justin That's why I love reading all of your columns 648 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 2: and books and things. We're never there yet, and as 649 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 2: it is a constant sort of struggle, it's important that 650 00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: we do or we can to get it as right 651 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 2: for us and for our family as we can. And 652 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: I think every family is different, of course, and the 653 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: choices that we make are different, and we have to 654 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 2: tap into what is right for us. 655 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: Jess, you're raising children, even though what you are, you're 656 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 1: raising children in the limelight birthday parties. Everyone's excited to 657 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: come to the celebrities house. Do you kids get an 658 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: easier or more difficult ride? 659 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 2: Because can I just say that is so not the case? 660 00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: Is that right? So there's this perception, you know, you 661 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: show up at the birthday party and everyone's like, oh, 662 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: it's Jessica, Rowe or Peter. 663 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 2: People know. I mean, we're us first and foremost, and 664 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,440 Speaker 2: we've never and we'll never make a big deal of 665 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:16,040 Speaker 2: what we do. 666 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, are pretty grounded, I'll give you that. I mean, yep, 667 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: pretty grounded. 668 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,439 Speaker 2: And where yes, we do a job. It's just people 669 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 2: see what we do, and if anything, I think, I mean, 670 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 2: I embarrass my kids, especially my eldest daughter. I have 671 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 2: to walk four steps behind her or four steps in 672 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 2: front of them because she does want me to walk 673 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: with them. 674 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: Even happens to you, that's so good? 675 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course it doesn't. And I say, but a 676 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 2: leg it's isn't it a bit obvious? I'm your mum. 677 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,040 Speaker 2: She's like, no, just stay behind me, just don't talk 678 00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 2: to me, don't look at me. So it's that's where 679 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 2: we're at. And really, our daughters couldn't care less in 680 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 2: the sense of we're just their mom and dad, and 681 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 2: at times we're terribly embarrassing to them. 682 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: Just like every good parent should be. Yeah, wonderful. Yeah, Well, 683 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 1: to wrap up this podcast, yes, I always ask five 684 00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: rapid fire questions. Okay, so you've got about ten seconds 685 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,360 Speaker 1: to answer each one, or maybe fifteen or twenty, because 686 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've got a good story or two for me. 687 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,399 Speaker 1: But everyone gets the same questions, and like I said, 688 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be relatively quick. So the first question 689 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: is if we asked your kids their favorite thing to 690 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: do with you, what would they say. 691 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 2: Well, Giselle would say I actually asked her this last night. 692 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 2: She said, trying new things. And also she likes to 693 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 2: jump out of cupboards and give me a fright. Because 694 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how many times she does it, I 695 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 2: always scream. 696 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,399 Speaker 1: We've banned that in my house. I've got a daughter 697 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: who loves to do that. I'm like, you just you're 698 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: not allowed. It's horrible. 699 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 2: Be used to it and no, but no, she gets me. 700 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,239 Speaker 2: Every time I asked a leg with this and she 701 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 2: just wrinkled her nose at me, like, what what do 702 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 2: you mean? So you know she yeah, she would say 703 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 2: probably nothing, But she does like to drive with me 704 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 2: in the car and we sh'll choose her music and 705 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 2: we'll pump it up really loudly and we'll drive around. 706 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 2: So that's something that we have a laugh and enjoy 707 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 2: doing together. 708 00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,840 Speaker 1: I can imagine you're doing that. What's been your trickiest 709 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: parenting moment? 710 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 2: Oh, every day? I think You're never there yet. I 711 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 2: think that's the point that there are all sorts of 712 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 2: tricky things. And I though, do enjoy my daughters the 713 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: older they get, and I'm reveling in the people that 714 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 2: they're becoming, and I love spending time with them and 715 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: chatting to them. So I do enjoy it more and 716 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:41,719 Speaker 2: more the older they get. 717 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a nice lead into my third question. 718 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: If you could spend an hour with your children at 719 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: any age at all, let's say tomorrow afternoon, three o'clock, 720 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: they're walking into your living room and they are that 721 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: magical age, which age would you pick? And why? 722 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: Oh, you know what? Absolutely where they are now? Because 723 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 2: I think I don't like to look back, and I 724 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: also don't like to go too far into the future, 725 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: because I think that can be a tricky path to tread. 726 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: That more and more. 727 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 2: We need to be in the present, and we need 728 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 2: to ground ourselves with what's happening now and be grateful 729 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 2: for where we're at in our lives now. So I 730 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 2: love exactly where they are now. 731 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: Awesome. No matter how good life has been, jess And 732 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: no matter how glad you are to be in the moment, though, 733 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 1: there must be something that you're looking forward to most 734 00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: as a mum. So that's question for what are you 735 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: actually looking most forward to? 736 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 2: To lie in bed with no one actually calling out 737 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 2: to me and going to the toilet in peace, without 738 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 2: anyone coming in, just no one wants me for I 739 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,319 Speaker 2: could day imagine that a day of just peace, that 740 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 2: that would be heaven. 741 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: All right, last question, if you could go back to 742 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,439 Speaker 1: Jessica Row as a young mum having one of those 743 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,640 Speaker 1: tough moments with no experience that this parenting thing at all, 744 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: what advice would you give yourself? 745 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:10,760 Speaker 2: I would say, you are enough. You are a good mum. 746 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 2: You've got this. You are going to get more sleep 747 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 2: one day. 748 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: Yes, one day, and you are good enough, you know, Jess. 749 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for that piece of advice. I've never 750 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: done this before, but I want to share something with 751 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: you out of one of my books, when I wrote 752 00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,319 Speaker 1: the book Ten Things Every Parent Needs to Know. I'm 753 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,759 Speaker 1: just going to read three paragraphs because it underscores or 754 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: re emphasizes what you've just said. And I hope that, 755 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,200 Speaker 1: I hope that you don't mind being my one person 756 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: audience as I read these three paragraphs. Well, I'll just 757 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:47,920 Speaker 1: read it. 758 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 2: Is that okay, oh yes, you'll probably make me cry. 759 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,480 Speaker 1: I hope. So here we go. In the novel ninety three, 760 00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:59,319 Speaker 1: French writer Victor Hugo wrote, she broke the bread into 761 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: two fragments and gave them to her children, who ate 762 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:06,360 Speaker 1: with eagerness. She hath kept none for herself, grumbled the sergeant. 763 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,840 Speaker 1: Because she's not hungry, said a soldier. No, said the sergeant, 764 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: because she is a mother. It is almost impossible to 765 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: put into words the depth of love that we feel 766 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: as parents towards our children. As Cordelia explains in Shakespeare's 767 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: King Lear when speaking of her love for her parent, 768 00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: my love is richer than my tongue. I cannot heave 769 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: my heart into my mouth. If you feel that way 770 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,000 Speaker 1: toward your children, then you are enough. The endless laundry, 771 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: the thankless tasks related to maintaining your home. The challenges 772 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: children provide each compounds to make us feel like it 773 00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,399 Speaker 1: might all be too much, and Instagram makes it look 774 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: like everyone else is doing it so well. They get 775 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,279 Speaker 1: their pre baby body back in five weeks, their meals 776 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 1: all look like they've come from a hatted restaurant kitchen, 777 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: and they seem to have so much more time to 778 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: spend doing meaningful activities with their children. The surest way 779 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,160 Speaker 1: to feel poorly about your parenting is to compare yourself 780 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 1: with others, especially when you mostly only get to see 781 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 1: their highlights real But parenting is as much about the 782 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: good times on Instagram as it is about those moments 783 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,960 Speaker 1: you would never want anyone to see. It's about how 784 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: we respond to the running noses, the fussy eating, the 785 00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: wet beds, the soiled underwear, all the puddle on the 786 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: carpet that provides evidence that the toilet training still has 787 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: a way to go. It's about how we respond to 788 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:16,960 Speaker 1: the complaints that my legs are sore and I can't 789 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: walk on tired mornings, the lost school jumpers, and the 790 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,400 Speaker 1: never ending sibling challenges that confront every parent of more 791 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,320 Speaker 1: than one child. Our response is to those micro moments 792 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,560 Speaker 1: that occur endlessly, day in and day out, set the 793 00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:35,799 Speaker 1: foundation for our children's lives as we respond with patience, kindness, understanding, compassion, 794 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,680 Speaker 1: and a desire to help rather than hurt. We're doing enough. 795 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: We're doing all that's required. We're growing, we're loving, and 796 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: we are enough as a parent. We're doing work that 797 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,960 Speaker 1: will never be seen by anyone beyond our family. But 798 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: the value of that foundation we lay will last for generations. 799 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 2: Justin see, you've made me cry. So beautiful, but it's 800 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,319 Speaker 2: so You're so right. And that's why the books, the articles, 801 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,160 Speaker 2: what you do is so important because we need we 802 00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,640 Speaker 2: need that reassurance, we need that information, we need that 803 00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 2: connection and community, I think, to know that, yes, we 804 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,399 Speaker 2: are all enough, we are good enough, we're doing our 805 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 2: very best. I think beautiful. 806 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: What's interesting about that is pretty much everything that I've 807 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,960 Speaker 1: written in the book you talked about in this conversation, 808 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 1: and it's been it's been a wonderful conversation, Chess. It's 809 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,520 Speaker 1: been delightful, it's been affirming, it's been thought provoking, and 810 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm sure for many people who are listening to this, 811 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: it's been life giving. So thank you so very much 812 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: for your generosity. 813 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 2: Oh, justin thank you. You know how much I love 814 00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,200 Speaker 2: you and how much I love talking to you, and 815 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 2: I just get you're amazing, So thank you for having me. 816 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,920 Speaker 2: It's been a very very special conversation. 817 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:59,479 Speaker 1: Well, what a wonderful what an honest, vulnerable and maybe 818 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: even conversation with Jessica Rowe. I hope you've gained some 819 00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:05,600 Speaker 1: insight into the life of Jess as a result of 820 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,439 Speaker 1: this Parenting in Perspective podcast. If you'd like some further reading, 821 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:11,600 Speaker 1: it's well worth checking out Jess's book The Best of 822 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: Times The Worst of Times, which documents Jess and her 823 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: mother's journey with bipolar disorder. There's also Love Wisdom, Motherhood, 824 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,440 Speaker 1: her memoir is Is This My Beautiful Life? And her 825 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,759 Speaker 1: latest Diary of a Crap Housewife. Now, one more important thing. 826 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: If there's anything that's been discussed on this podcast that 827 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: raises issues for you, please reach out to an organization 828 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:36,319 Speaker 1: like Lifeline, Headspace Australia Beyond Blue, who Jessica is an 829 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,919 Speaker 1: ambassador for as well. And thanks again for being part 830 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,799 Speaker 1: of the Parenting in Perspective podcast on the Doctor Justin 831 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:47,640 Speaker 1: Colson's Happy Families Podcast feed. My name's doctor Justin Colson. 832 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: It's been great to have you with me. Just before 833 00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:50,839 Speaker 1: I run, I want to tell you about a couple 834 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: of quick things. So so very grateful for the reviews 835 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,799 Speaker 1: that come through via the Apple Podcasts app. If you 836 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: have enjoyed the podcast, you go there and give me 837 00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: a five star review. Don't worry if you didn't enjoy it, 838 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't need to know. Don't dive in there and 839 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: give me one of those one star reviews. They're no good. 840 00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: But Schmuff left to review just recently, who said your 841 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,920 Speaker 1: Happy Famili's podcast is my lifeline. Your three e's and 842 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,760 Speaker 1: five h's such great insight on how to manage anxiety 843 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: and manage life with kids. The podcast is an easy, 844 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:24,239 Speaker 1: doable listen with a short snippet of advice. I love 845 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,959 Speaker 1: listening to it when I go for walks and clean 846 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:28,400 Speaker 1: the house. It's my little taste of therapy at home. 847 00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:31,560 Speaker 1: I've spread the words to friends. Thank you, welt Schmuff. 848 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for your five star review. It's just wonderful 849 00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,200 Speaker 1: to hear from you and to know that you enjoyed it. 850 00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:39,759 Speaker 1: And by the way, please do tell your friends about 851 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,439 Speaker 1: the podcast. This is how we get the word out 852 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 1: and how we get to help loads of people to 853 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,160 Speaker 1: make their families happier. The next Parenting in Perspective podcast 854 00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: is just a week away. Please join me doctor Justin 855 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: Colson as I talk with Dr Justin Patchet, who has 856 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,080 Speaker 1: a PhD in criminal justice. We're going to be discussing 857 00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: cyberbullying and working with youth and technology. 858 00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 4: Right down and there that there was a story that 859 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,319 Speaker 4: these kids wanted to tell. They didn't feel comfortable telling 860 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,760 Speaker 4: their parents about it because they didn't know anything about technology, 861 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:09,319 Speaker 4: so they were just kind of holding on to this 862 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,239 Speaker 4: and so we've been studying it ever since. 863 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 1: That's Justin Patchen, my next guest on the Parenting in 864 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,239 Speaker 1: Perspective podcast, a Happy Families podcast. For more information, visit 865 00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: Happyfamilies dot com dot a you