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Speaker 1: This is the Happy Family's podcast with doctor Justin Coulson.

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Speaker 1: We are Luke and Suzie and this is the podcast

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Speaker 1: for time poor parents who just want answers.

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Speaker 2: Now, we've had a question through from Melanie.

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Speaker 3: Let me read it to you.

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Speaker 2: She said, my two year old son is a total

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Speaker 2: mummies boy. Yes, and although he loves his dad, he

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Speaker 2: only wants me to read to him, pick him up

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Speaker 2: in the morning, cries for me often, And although I'm

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Speaker 2: exhausted and need that break, I'm also feeling guilty when

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Speaker 2: I hear him crying for mummy when he's with his dad.

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Speaker 2: Am I never supposed to be without him? Doctor Dustin

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Speaker 2: Coolson joins us in the studio, our parenting expert, to

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Speaker 2: address this question from Melanie about a two year old

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Speaker 2: son who's a mummy's boy. Justin and Mum's overwhelmed and exhausted.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the bad news is that this is a

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Speaker 3: developmental reality. Kids are biologically wired to want to connect

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Speaker 3: to us as parents, and they have a hierarchy. We

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Speaker 3: call it an attachment hierarchy. That's the official word for it.

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Speaker 3: And in most cases, so long as mummy is healthy

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Speaker 3: and well, mummy is at the top of that hierarchy,

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Speaker 3: which means that in spite of dad's best efforts or

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Speaker 3: any other caregiver, you know, Grandma Aunties, even siblings, in

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Speaker 3: spite of our best efforts, it's pretty rare for any

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Speaker 3: of us to succeed in taking mum out of top spot,

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Speaker 3: which is beautiful, right, except when your mum and you're exhausted,

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Speaker 3: and particularly if mum's having mental health issues. I mean,

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Speaker 3: it's sometimes life threatening in the most catastrophic of cases.

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Speaker 1: So I guess that's probably important for us to highlight

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Speaker 1: here that as we talk about the general topic in

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Speaker 1: response to this general question, in a sense this is

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Speaker 1: excluding cases of extreme yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So my response for this is for parents who

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Speaker 3: are normal exhausted parents who are doing it the normal

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Speaker 3: way and just being like, ah, and look, I'm using

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Speaker 3: the word normal inverted commas. I recognize that even commit

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Speaker 3: in sensitive word, we are always a little bit light

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Speaker 3: when we have these conversations. But you know, only a

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Speaker 3: dad could say this, but in enjoy it, well you can.

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Speaker 3: I know that sounds like it's an insensitive thing because

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Speaker 3: I'm saying I'm exhausted, but one day this little baby

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Speaker 3: and I know Mum's probably thinking, I can't wait for

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Speaker 3: that day. But one day that little baby is not

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Speaker 3: going to look at you and say you're my number one.

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Speaker 2: And your heart will break.

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Speaker 1: I've had that moment, Sus, Sus, you've had that moment.

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Speaker 3: SUS's having it again right now.

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Speaker 1: For years it was I was told I don't love

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Speaker 1: you as much as mummy. I don't love you as

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Speaker 1: much as mummy. I love mummy Moore's And then one

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Speaker 1: day the same child put me on the top of

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Speaker 1: the list, and.

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Speaker 3: Sus not that, not that it's a competition.

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Speaker 1: Would we would reiterate the whole time, and it was

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Speaker 1: I was, no, you can love people equally. You don't

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Speaker 1: have to put you don't have to create a list.

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Speaker 3: But the kids actually do. The kids do, yeah, And

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Speaker 3: it is a phase. And I guess this is the

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Speaker 3: simple and major message of this for most kids in

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Speaker 3: typically developing circumstances with a loving and attached mum and

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Speaker 3: dad or caregivers. Generally, mum is usually going to be

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Speaker 3: at the top of the hierarchy. They will develop through it.

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Speaker 3: It is exact. But while you're there, to the extent

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Speaker 3: that as possible, can you love it, can you just

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Speaker 3: embrace it.

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Speaker 2: That's a nice simplistic cancer.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to address. I'd like to.

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Speaker 2: Address the end, the tail end of Melanie's question that

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Speaker 2: came through. She finished with this line, am I never

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Speaker 2: supposed to be without him?

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Speaker 3: And I sort of sound a little bit insensitive. I

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Speaker 3: know that I didn't mean to. With good support, you

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Speaker 3: can absolutely have me time. But there's probably a couple

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Speaker 3: of things that we should talk about when it comes

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Speaker 3: to mums and kids and me time versus we time.

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Speaker 3: Me time is important, and I think I might get

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Speaker 3: to that in just a sec. Research tells us, however,

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Speaker 3: and tells us fairly consistently, that in terms of what

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Speaker 3: will be good for our well being and the family's

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Speaker 3: well being, we time trump's me time. I want to

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Speaker 3: say WEE time. I don't mean that time in front

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Speaker 3: of the computer game, but we on the TV. I mean,

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Speaker 3: I mean we time like us being together. And again,

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Speaker 3: that's really hard when you're exhausted and you just quite frankly,

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Speaker 3: you don't want to see that toddler for a couple

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Speaker 3: of days, a week, couple of years. Maybe that's really

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Speaker 3: really hard. But when we understand that that we time

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Speaker 3: is so crucial for the formation and the development of

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Speaker 3: this little person, so crucial for the foundations of our family,

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Speaker 3: and actually so important for creating meaning in our own lives.

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Speaker 3: WE time actually becomes absolutely vitally important. Two people watch isus?

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Speaker 3: You would have seen two hands.

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Speaker 1: It seems caterintuitive. This is all I was going to say, Like,

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Speaker 1: the fact is I need a break. I need a break,

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Speaker 1: But the WE time is going to give me the

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Speaker 1: greatest refreshment. Wh is what you're saying. Some of the

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Speaker 1: research shows so it's like when you're exhausted physically and

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Speaker 1: they say, go to the gym and go exercise, Like,

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Speaker 1: how is that going to help me feel less time?

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Speaker 3: I hate it when exercise is the answer commonly is.

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Speaker 2: But I think it does take that change of mindset

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Speaker 2: because I think back to when I was heavily pregnant

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Speaker 2: with twins and I had a two year old or

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Speaker 2: nearly two years old. One of my favorite memories was

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Speaker 2: when I just changed the track in my head of

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Speaker 2: what I was supposed to be doing as a mum,

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Speaker 2: and instead of sitting around constantly trying to keep this

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Speaker 2: child entertained and making sure he had the right meals

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Speaker 2: and the house was tidy and everything was under control.

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Speaker 2: I went, you know what, I'm going to read a

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Speaker 2: book and we went out into the sunshine. I sat

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Speaker 2: on the backstep and I had my book and he

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Speaker 2: ran around where I could see him and where he

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Speaker 2: was near me, chasing butterflies. And it's one of my

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Speaker 2: it's my go to memory, the first thing that flashes

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Speaker 2: through when my life flashes before my eyes, that's one

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Speaker 2: of the.

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Speaker 1: Things that happens.

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Speaker 3: Look, I'm a dead devil, what can I say? But

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Speaker 3: another wise, it was just like a goosebump moment. Right.

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Speaker 3: You share that and anyone who's who's a mum, who's

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Speaker 3: actually stopped and just said, I'm going to have some

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Speaker 3: good quality. I mean, I guess in some ways that

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Speaker 3: is me time. But you've done it together. You made

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Speaker 3: the little guy feel like he's part of the moment

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Speaker 3: and it becomes a magical gold fleck in your memory bank.

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Speaker 2: Yes, even after the twins were born and they were

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Speaker 2: babies and I felt house bound because it's it was

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Speaker 2: difficult to get out of the house with three kids.

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Speaker 2: When I changed the track and went, let's just go

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Speaker 2: to the beach. It's a sunny day and I've got

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Speaker 2: a car, grabbed some snacks.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to be confined to the house.

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Speaker 2: I grabbed two beach towels, I grabbed some snacks and

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Speaker 2: a couple of water bottle for each child. I put

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Speaker 2: them in the car and we drove to the beach.

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Speaker 2: And as soon as we got there, Tyson took off

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Speaker 2: all his clothes and started chasing seagulls.

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Speaker 3: Chasing seagulls, tell me out things, chickens.

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Speaker 2: It was, it was, it was wee time. But it

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Speaker 2: was refreshing because it was I changed the track of

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Speaker 2: what I felt I was supposed to do as a mum,

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Speaker 2: or what I what I felt my capacity was as

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Speaker 2: a mum.

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Speaker 1: I think there's so much we can continue on with

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Speaker 1: this conversation.

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Speaker 3: I've got to say something really quickly. I know that you,

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Speaker 3: I know we're out of time, but I'll be super

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Speaker 3: super quick keep it quick when it comes to me time,

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Speaker 3: because this is important as well. We can't just say

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Speaker 3: to an exhausted mom it's all about wee time. You

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Speaker 3: do need some time out, you do need some me time,

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Speaker 3: but if you're going to have me time, you want

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Speaker 3: it to be genuinely rejuvenated. You want it to be

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Speaker 3: truly refreshing. You want it to be reinvigorating and energizing

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Speaker 3: for you, which means that the last thing that you

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Speaker 3: want to do is sit on the couch and stare

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Speaker 3: at a screen or go on watch even watching a movie.

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Speaker 3: You know that's dead brain time. And as much as

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Speaker 3: it's easy, it's like fast food for your soul. It's

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Speaker 3: not going to do any good. Go and find good friends,

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Speaker 3: or go and do something active, do something in nature.

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Speaker 3: Nature is fuel for the soul. If you can combine

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Speaker 3: those kinds of things, you'll find that your me time

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Speaker 3: becomes far more beautiful, far more refreshing. And please remember

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Speaker 3: that when your met time is over, you are going

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Speaker 3: to be stepping back into chaos and neediness and challenge again.

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Speaker 3: Be ready for that, because otherwise I've watched this happen

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Speaker 3: with families that I've worked with. The MM who goes

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Speaker 3: to get the me time starts to resent the child

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Speaker 3: even more when she gets back, because the child is

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Speaker 3: making life so much more horrible that she can't have

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Speaker 3: more meat time. So we time is king.

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Speaker 1: And as the support person, as the husband and the scenario,

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Speaker 1: I know that souons there are times and we've kicked

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Speaker 1: you out of the house and you've struggled because the

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Speaker 1: child is screaming as you are leaving. But once you

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Speaker 1: leave a bitter distraction.

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Speaker 3: And we're good.

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Speaker 1: But you leave with that memory in your head and

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Speaker 1: it can roll through you and then you can not

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Speaker 1: enjoy the time. It's not refreshing because all you're thinking

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Speaker 1: about it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's a learned skill as a mum

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Speaker 2: to learn to say it's okay, so they're going to

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Speaker 2: be fine.

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Speaker 3: And a great support person will kick you out the

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Speaker 3: door with a spile on your face on their face,

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Speaker 3: and they won't call you ninety seconds later and say

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Speaker 3: this was a bad idea. They'll let you go and

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Speaker 3: have fun.

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Speaker 1: Where are you far away home? So dr Justin Kilson

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Speaker 1: from having Family dot com.

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Speaker 3: That are you? Thank you so much? Always great a chat.

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Speaker 2: episode as soon as it is uploaded. For more information

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Speaker 2: on all of doctor Justin Coulson's books, programs, and podcasts

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Speaker 2: go to Happy Families dot com dot au. Or if

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Speaker 2: you'd like to have doctor Justin Coulson speak at your

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Speaker 2: school or event, go to Justinculson dot com