Speaker 1: If you've been listening to how I work in the
Speaker 1: last few months, you might have heard me mention that
Speaker 1: I've been working on a new book called time Wise.
Speaker 2: Okay, that's an understatement.
Speaker 1: I have been talking about time Wise at nauseam, and
Speaker 1: did I mention that it's out now wherever you get books?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: Anyway, I've just spent the last eighteen months going through
Speaker 1: the whole publishing process, from coming up with an idea
Speaker 1: for a book, to pitching it to a publisher, to
Speaker 1: getting a deal, to writing the book, to editing the book,
Speaker 1: and now finally to marketing the book. And I've had
Speaker 1: so many questions from my friends, clients, workmates about the
Speaker 1: whole process, so I thought i'd share what goes on
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. And who better to interview than the
Speaker 1: amazing woman who commissioned my book time Wise for Penguin
Speaker 1: Random House, Izzy Yates. Izzy is the head of the
Speaker 1: publishing lab at Penguin Random House, and I.
Speaker 2: Call her my book captain.
Speaker 1: She's been in charge of guiding my new book all
Speaker 1: the way from my initial proposal to a finished product
Speaker 1: that is now in bookshops and online retailers. In my
Speaker 1: chat with Izzy, she breaks down everything from how the
Speaker 1: team at Penguin decide on the books that they publish,
Speaker 1: through to what goes on between an author producing the
Speaker 1: first draft of a book to polishing it to make
Speaker 1: it ready to go to print.
Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amanthea Immer.
Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science
Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work a show
Speaker 1: about how to help you do your best work.
Speaker 2: When I was offered a book deal with.
Speaker 1: Penguin, I felt pretty bloody lucky and very very excited. Izzy,
Speaker 1: who commissioned my book, only works on ten to twelve
Speaker 1: books per year and I got to be one of those.
Speaker 1: I imagined that Izzy receives a lot of pictures.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to know where do all these.
Speaker 1: Book pictures that she receives come from that eventually feed
Speaker 1: into the select view that.
Speaker 2: She decides to publish.
Speaker 3: Well, they can come from a few different places, So
Speaker 3: some come to us through literary agents. Some of them
Speaker 3: might reach us directly. So you know, sometimes I'll have
Speaker 3: someone in my network who will be making an introduction
Speaker 3: to someone they know who's got a book idea, and
Speaker 3: then that starts the conversation that way. We do also,
Speaker 3: you know, have direct submissions through through our website. Most
Speaker 3: publishers do that. They have submission guidelines on their websites
Speaker 3: so that anyone can put forward their manuscript or their proposal.
Speaker 3: And then you know, often I might spot someone who's
Speaker 3: doing interesting work that I think could be transferable to
Speaker 3: a book, and in that case, I'll get in touch
Speaker 3: with them and start a conversation about how we could
Speaker 3: collaborate together. So it's really there's a range of different routes,
Speaker 3: I suppose.
Speaker 1: So when people reach out to you, like are they
Speaker 1: sending you an entire manuscript or book? Like, what do
Speaker 1: they actually send you?
Speaker 3: Well, it differs actually depending on whether it's a fictional
Speaker 3: nonfiction book. Usually, so because I just work on nonfiction books,
Speaker 3: I'm generally just receiving a proposal. So whereas for a
Speaker 3: fiction book, it would be normal to expect the whole
Speaker 3: first draft of the manuscript to come through. For me,
Speaker 3: it would be a proposal document, and that might be
Speaker 3: somewhere between sort of ten and fifty pages, I suppose.
Speaker 3: So it's you know, we're acquiring new projects based on
Speaker 3: the concept, based on that outline and what's in the proposal,
Speaker 3: but it's not until the book is actually signed that
Speaker 3: the author, if they're a non fiction author, will then
Speaker 3: go off and write the first draft. So we're not
Speaker 3: necessarily buying it with a whole book to look at.
Speaker 1: Okay, And so you've got essentially ten to twelve slots
Speaker 1: if you like, in any given year, how many proposals
Speaker 1: and pitches do you think would you estimate that you're
Speaker 1: receiving that you need to narrow down to that ten
Speaker 1: to twelve?
Speaker 3: You know, it's probably several a week that I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about coming from all those different places and then other ideas,
Speaker 3: So there's a really big sort of pool to narrow
Speaker 3: down essentially to get to those books that I'm going
Speaker 3: to publish each year.
Speaker 1: Okay, So what makes for a really great pitch or proposal?
Speaker 3: So I think, first of all, looking for a unique proposition,
Speaker 3: so something that's new or a fresh take on an
Speaker 3: existing idea or topic. I really am drawn to proposals
Speaker 3: that have an important message. I love working with authors
Speaker 3: who have a mission or a purpose, and working in nonfiction,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm very passionate about books that will educate
Speaker 3: or inspire or change thinking or behavior in some way,
Speaker 3: I'm certainly looking for something that's very timely, maybe you know,
Speaker 3: connects to or contributes to the zeitgeist. It should ideally
Speaker 3: have a kind of clear and engaging voice coming through
Speaker 3: from the author, and quality content of course, so you know,
Speaker 3: a clearly structured proposal is always very, very helpful when
Speaker 3: a publisher is kind of considering that that project to
Speaker 3: potentially take it forward. We want to be able to
Speaker 3: understand quickly what it's about, what makes it unique in
Speaker 3: the market, what its strengths and differences are, and of
Speaker 3: course understand who the author is and what they're about,
Speaker 3: and what we might expect working with them, and ideas
Speaker 3: for how we could sort of bring the book to
Speaker 3: market and make it a great success together.
Speaker 1: I remember talking to a literary agent in America and
Speaker 1: talking about the American publishing market, and I remember he said,
Speaker 1: with nonfiction books, particularly business and self development kind of books,
Speaker 1: howablishers evaluate the I guess the strength of a proposal
Speaker 1: is the uniqueness of the idea multiplied by the size
Speaker 1: of the platform of the author. And I'm wondering in Australia,
Speaker 1: how important is that when you look at the author
Speaker 1: or the writer that's behind the idea. How important is
Speaker 1: the size of their reach or platform or profile.
Speaker 3: I would say it's definitely an important consideration, absolutely. You know,
Speaker 3: audience is increasingly becoming very important and something that we
Speaker 3: think about a lot as publishers. So someone who has
Speaker 3: gotten established online community or you know, a brand and
Speaker 3: perhaps a rich and influential network, all of those things
Speaker 3: are going to really help with the success of the
Speaker 3: proposal at that consideration stage. But as you say, and
Speaker 3: as you sort of hinted that with that quote, you know,
Speaker 3: it's only one component of it. So while we will,
Speaker 3: you know, we consider consider that platform and that audience,
Speaker 3: it also needs to tick all the other boxes, I suppose,
Speaker 3: and we're also looking for that kind of spark and
Speaker 3: the idea and other factors that point to the potential
Speaker 3: of the book. But what's increasingly proven to be the
Speaker 3: case and was really really exciting is the potential for
Speaker 3: books that respond to trends and to existing markets and
Speaker 3: established and identifiable markets that we can then really work
Speaker 3: with those authors in a collaborative way to produce the
Speaker 3: best book that that audience is going to really respond
Speaker 3: to and love.
Speaker 1: It's been probably about a year I reckon since my
Speaker 1: book proposal hit your desk via my wonderful agent, Kathy,
Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if you can cast your mind back
Speaker 1: to receiving that proposal. It was not called time Wise then,
Speaker 1: I think it was called how They Work was the
Speaker 1: working title, And I'd love to know if you remember
Speaker 1: what your initial thoughts were when you received that proposal.
Speaker 3: Yes, I remember it well because it just grabbed me immediately.
Speaker 2: To be honest, this was.
Speaker 3: I would actually kind of put your proposal up there
Speaker 3: as a bit of a gold standard, a manser as
Speaker 3: with everything else that you've done throughout the publishing process.
Speaker 3: But it was so well structured and clear, so you know,
Speaker 3: I remember that it opened with a really excellent overview
Speaker 3: that explained the concept but also what's unique about your book.
Speaker 3: You'd really thought about where it would sit in the market,
Speaker 3: its strengthen, its points of difference. One of the things
Speaker 3: that blew me away, and certainly did with other people
Speaker 3: in my team was your marketing plan that you'd included,
Speaker 3: which was very, very comprehensive. It really showed that you'd
Speaker 3: thought in depth about, you know, how we could work
Speaker 3: together to make the book a success. It really showed
Speaker 3: your passion and your commitment and your sort of your
Speaker 3: determination to use the resources you already have at your
Speaker 3: disposal in conjunction with what we would be doing, and
Speaker 3: just full of ideas. I think I got a really
Speaker 3: immediate sense of who you are and what you're about,
Speaker 3: and what you will hope to achieve with the book.
Speaker 3: And plus it you know, it had your warmth and
Speaker 3: your energy on every page of it. So I just
Speaker 3: I read it and I thought, I would love to
Speaker 3: work with this person, and I think this would be
Speaker 3: a fascinating book, one that would have a lot of people.
Speaker 1: That's lovely fakes, you see, I'm blushing. You can't say
Speaker 1: that though. Now it's all well and good for you
Speaker 1: to like the proposal, but then there's a whole internal
Speaker 1: sales process. Can you talk me through what happens when
Speaker 1: you get a proposal and you fall in love with it.
Speaker 1: What then happens then to actually get to the point
Speaker 1: where you're offering an author a publishing contract.
Speaker 3: The publisher such as myself is the first port of call,
Speaker 3: and we're really right from the beginning, it's our job
Speaker 3: to be the champion for the book and for the
Speaker 3: author through the business. So the first the first step
Speaker 3: is to take proposal to what we call in at
Speaker 3: Penguin Random House are publishing meeting. So that's a meeting
Speaker 3: with everyone in the publishing department, publishing director, the other publishers,
Speaker 3: and commissioning editors and representatives of the editorial teams as well.
Speaker 3: And what I will do is, as well as the
Speaker 3: proposal from the author, I will craft a memo which
Speaker 3: is my sort of personal pitch for the book as well,
Speaker 3: share both of those with everyone in my team, and
Speaker 3: then we'll come together to discuss discuss the book essentially
Speaker 3: and talk about you know, it's meriots and what we
Speaker 3: see the potential as being. So I'm going in there
Speaker 3: to pitch it, and then if that goes well, then
Speaker 3: I will take the proposal forward to our acquisitions meeting,
Speaker 3: and that's a meeting with other representatives from the business,
Speaker 3: all the key stakeholders really, so people from sales and
Speaker 3: marketing and publicity, and again, you know, it's a pitching
Speaker 3: process and it's all about sort of getting everybody on
Speaker 3: board discussing the potential of the book, where we think
Speaker 3: it could sit in the market, what we think the
Speaker 3: commercial potential will be and that's a pretty rigorous discussion
Speaker 3: and always really really good because we want to you know,
Speaker 3: put a lot of consideration into those decisions. They're important.
Speaker 3: And then at the end of that meeting, if everyone
Speaker 3: is really keen to go forward and proceed with the book,
Speaker 3: then it's a case of you know, putting together an
Speaker 3: offer to put to the author, to the agent and
Speaker 3: hopefully securing a deal and moving to contracts. And then
Speaker 3: really at that point, you know, the publishing process begins,
Speaker 3: I suppose, and it's time to talk in more detail
Speaker 3: about getting going with the writing process with the author.
Speaker 1: So with books that get to the publishing meeting, what
Speaker 1: percentage would make it to the next stage, which is
Speaker 1: the acquisitions meeting.
Speaker 3: We have a good conversion rate from the publishing meeting
Speaker 3: to the acquisitions meeting. You know, everyone, every publisher has
Speaker 3: already been quite careful and rigorous in sort of thinking
Speaker 3: about which projects they're bringing forward to the publishing meeting,
Speaker 3: and needless to say, lots of lots of ideas and
Speaker 3: proposals don't make it to that point. And then once
Speaker 3: we're at the acquisitions meeting, you know, we have about
Speaker 3: fifty to seventy percent conversion rate I think for books
Speaker 3: that have come to that meeting and that do end
Speaker 3: up being published by us.
Speaker 1: So once you've got the contracts on it and the
Speaker 1: authors onboard, the actual writing of the book starts, so
Speaker 1: theoretically the main part of the process. So how does
Speaker 1: that work? How does that part of the process work,
Speaker 1: from the authors starting to write the book through to
Speaker 1: getting the proofs, which is the you know, essentially how
Speaker 1: the book will look in its printed form.
Speaker 2: What happens Well, one.
Speaker 3: Of the first things to say is that often that
Speaker 3: is quite a lengthy process in terms of time, and
Speaker 3: I think that's something that you know, people from outside
Speaker 3: of publishing might not necessarily be aware of it can
Speaker 3: it can be a year or two between you know,
Speaker 3: that that contractual stage and having the book ready to
Speaker 3: go to the printer. So it really depends on the
Speaker 3: book of course, and the author and you know, their
Speaker 3: their timeline for writing that first draft. Some are in
Speaker 3: a position to go away and do it in a
Speaker 3: few months, some need a lot longer. So, but generally speaking,
Speaker 3: we work on a timeframe of sort of a year
Speaker 3: from the delivery of the manuscript, the first draft of
Speaker 3: the manuscript until publication, So add the writing time to
Speaker 3: that and that's you know, that's how you can end
Speaker 3: up with quite a number of months. So really again
Speaker 3: speaking for the sorts of projects that I work on,
Speaker 3: So after that contractual stage, then it's time to get
Speaker 3: cracking with the writing. And obviously planning is really really
Speaker 3: a scent or in that. I always like to, you know,
Speaker 3: have a good sit down and conversation with the art
Speaker 3: author at that point because generally speaking we'll have a
Speaker 3: really strong outline of the book from the proposal. But
Speaker 3: it's important to you know, get a strong sense of
Speaker 3: what the content is going to be in the book
Speaker 3: before the writing begins. And also, you know, mapping out
Speaker 3: often a sort of deadline schedule can be very helpful.
Speaker 3: We're thinking about sort of sixty to one hundred thousand
Speaker 3: words on average for a book of this kind, and
Speaker 3: you know that's a big project, it's a big writing undertaking.
Speaker 3: So what I found is it certainly helpsful for authors
Speaker 3: if we sort of break that down into smaller chunks. Naturally,
Speaker 3: chapters lend themselves well to that, and so we might
Speaker 3: make a plan for delivery and just establish some of
Speaker 3: those key milestones. Some authors quite like to you know,
Speaker 3: perhaps their deliver doing a new chapter every fortnight, or
Speaker 3: you know, we'll have a check in three months in
Speaker 3: and we can see how it's all going with the writing.
Speaker 3: So that planning and that sort of coaching through is
Speaker 3: really helpful that I've found. And another thing that I
Speaker 3: do like to do is sort of request the first
Speaker 3: couple of chapters once they're ready, just the first draft,
Speaker 3: so that I can have a read of those and
Speaker 3: get a sense of the voice and the content. And
Speaker 3: because course correction, you know, is obviously much more effective
Speaker 3: if it can happen at an earlier stage. So it's
Speaker 3: nice to check in once the writing has begun and
Speaker 3: see how it's all going. And then we'll always just
Speaker 3: sort of be in touch pretty frequently during that process,
Speaker 3: and you know, I can also be a bit of
Speaker 3: an accountability buddy and you know, help guide that writing
Speaker 3: process along. And one of the things that I truly
Speaker 3: love about my job is the ability to do that
Speaker 3: sort of real collaboration with authors, and so a lot
Speaker 3: of the time, you know, I might be working with
Speaker 3: authors who this is their first book publishing experience, and
Speaker 3: perhaps they don't really come from a background of writing,
Speaker 3: even if they come from another field of content creation,
Speaker 3: and in that case it's really a sort of co
Speaker 3: creation process, and we'll be thinking a lot about, you know,
Speaker 3: what's their content from other platforms that have been really successful,
Speaker 3: what's the mission and the purpose for this book, and
Speaker 3: how can we create a book that is going to
Speaker 3: be a really fantastic reflection of them and is going
Speaker 3: to really appeal to their audience. So in those cases,
Speaker 3: I get to be really quite heavily involved in that
Speaker 3: sort of content creation, and that's always a really fantastic experience.
Speaker 1: I've learned through this process that there are two editing stages.
Speaker 1: So there's the structural edit and then there's the copy edit.
Speaker 1: If I've given that stage the correct name, And time
Speaker 1: Wise skipped over the structural edit. So I'm wondering if
Speaker 1: you can comment on why and maybe what actually happens
Speaker 1: during that stage. How big a process is it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so time Wise was fairly unusual in that regard,
Speaker 3: and that's all credit to you a month where it's
Speaker 3: because you already had such a fantastic structure in place
Speaker 3: with the book. It was already working very very well
Speaker 3: in your first draft that actually it didn't require a
Speaker 3: structural edit. But generally speaking, the structural edit is all
Speaker 3: about the book on a macro level, I suppose. So
Speaker 3: we're thinking about how it flows from beginning to end.
Speaker 3: Is it logical? Is all the content there that we want?
Speaker 3: Is it in the right places? You know? Do we
Speaker 3: need to think about moving things around a little bit.
Speaker 3: Do we need more information in some places? Do we
Speaker 3: need more kind of color and story in other places?
Speaker 3: So it's that big picture look at the book, So
Speaker 3: that happens first, and the feedback might take the form
Speaker 3: of a structural report, so it might be a set
Speaker 3: of notes that I would put together and perhaps some
Speaker 3: comments in the margin as well, So that when that
Speaker 3: structural edit is completed, it goes back to the author
Speaker 3: and they get the chance to obviously read it all
Speaker 3: through and make revisions to the manuscript based on that feedback.
Speaker 3: And then when the second draft comes in, that's when
Speaker 3: the copy edit happens. And that's different because it's really
Speaker 3: more detailed and it's focused on what's happening on the line.
Speaker 3: Every single line of the manuscript will be read and
Speaker 3: edited carefully. You know. Copy editors are incredibly skilled people
Speaker 3: with remarkable attention to detail, so they'll be going through
Speaker 3: and you know, scrutinizing I suppose the grammar and the
Speaker 3: spelling and making sure there's clarity where there needs to
Speaker 3: be and that's really sort of detailed, and because obviously
Speaker 3: at that point the structure should all be hanging in
Speaker 3: place really nicely. So then that set of edits will
Speaker 3: go back to the author again for them to review
Speaker 3: and fix up any last last little things that they'd
Speaker 3: like to change, and then it's off to typesetting when
Speaker 3: we make it look like a book, which.
Speaker 2: Is very exciting.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 1: I must say that I've worked with several editors before,
Speaker 1: and the coffee editing stage I found quite amazing with
Speaker 1: Penguin and with Clive, the amazing Clive he is listening,
Speaker 1: who was my coffee editor. Although I feel like you
Speaker 1: were kind of like a co editor with Clive at
Speaker 1: that stage, I'm not sure how that relationship worked behind
Speaker 1: the scenes. Did you guys kind of tag team on
Speaker 1: that or did Clive do the main copy edit and
Speaker 1: then he then threw it to you for questions or
Speaker 1: how did that work?
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things that can differ
Speaker 3: from book to book, but the way that we work
Speaker 3: at Penguin Random House is every book has the publisher
Speaker 3: or commissioning editor of course, and then a dedicated editor,
Speaker 3: and the editor is responsible for sort of project managing
Speaker 3: the book and also doing the close work on the text.
Speaker 3: And it is remarkable and editors are so so wonderful
Speaker 3: and very lucky to work with Clive and the other
Speaker 3: editors that we have because they are just highly skilled
Speaker 3: and absolutely fantastic. So because for time wise, you know,
Speaker 3: there wasn't really that need for the separate structural edit,
Speaker 3: Clive and I sort of took it in turns to
Speaker 3: review the manuscript and you know, put our thoughts on
Speaker 3: there for you and provide our feedback. So you know,
Speaker 3: there are a few little minor structural things here and there,
Speaker 3: which I was focusing on the structural side of things
Speaker 3: more so, and Clive was focusing on the copy edit.
Speaker 3: But it was very light. In fact, it was light
Speaker 3: on both because it was an excellent draft, ah.
Speaker 2: Because it didn't feel light on the copy edit.
Speaker 1: So to give listens an idea of just how thorough
Speaker 1: the process is, which I just I loved and probably
Speaker 1: what could have been a very tedious and boring process
Speaker 1: was made really quite joyous, like Clive is very funny
Speaker 1: and also excellent at his job, but just to give
Speaker 1: listen as an idea, Like I mean, Clive, when he
Speaker 1: was going through the manuscript would make comments like, you know,
Speaker 1: you've used this term like in turn. I think was
Speaker 1: maybe a phrase that I use as a like at
Speaker 1: the beginning of sentences occasionally, you know, like twelve times
Speaker 1: in this manuscript, and that's possibly too often. So can
Speaker 1: we think of some alternative phrasing for that, like that
Speaker 1: kind of thing, And like you know in this paragraph
Speaker 1: you've used this, you know, maybe this adjective twice. So
Speaker 1: can we just find an alternative given we don't want
Speaker 1: to repeat this word in the same paragraph. Just really
Speaker 1: small things like that, which I think when you focus
Speaker 1: through focus on all those things throughout a book just
Speaker 1: improves readability and just engaging this so much, which is
Speaker 1: stuff that I never really gave too much thought to
Speaker 1: with anything I'd written prior to time wise. But now
Speaker 1: even when I'm just writing, you know, seven hundred word
Speaker 1: articles with the various places that I write, I now
Speaker 1: I feel like I have Clive's words in my head,
Speaker 1: going think of a different adjective there. Please, you don't
Speaker 1: call your readers, but.
Speaker 2: I loved that.
Speaker 1: Now, how do you decide when a book is finished
Speaker 1: and ready to be typeset? Like, because you can just
Speaker 1: keep on tinkering, How do you know when it's done?
Speaker 3: I know it can be a bit hard to let
Speaker 3: go sometimes, I can imagine, but really it's you know,
Speaker 3: after that copy edit stage has been completed and the
Speaker 3: authors has responded to any queries and you know it's
Speaker 3: happy with all the changes that have been made, at
Speaker 3: that point, it should be ready to go off to typesetting,
Speaker 3: and so you know, we'll clean up the document, get
Speaker 3: everything in place, and the idea really after that is
Speaker 3: when the pages come back from the type setter. It's
Speaker 3: all about just weeding out and identifying any small last
Speaker 3: errors that might be hiding in there somewhere, so that
Speaker 3: it's ready to go to the printer. After we've done
Speaker 3: that type setting, we're not really seeking to make any big,
Speaker 3: big changes to the book. So that's a great stage
Speaker 3: for the author. Firstly because you know, you get pages
Speaker 3: that start to look like a book and you can
Speaker 3: see the design and everything, so that's really brilliant. But
Speaker 3: also because then you're kind of on the home stretch.
Speaker 3: It's just fixing up the last little bits and pieces.
Speaker 3: You know, the proofread will happen alongside the author review
Speaker 3: of the pages. But then we're just tidying up and
Speaker 3: getting it really, really polished and perfect before it goes
Speaker 3: to the printer. And then you can have a big
Speaker 3: sigh of relief.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I have passed that sage to the process,
Speaker 1: so I've definitely had that side of Really.
Speaker 2: We will be back soon with Izzy.
Speaker 1: Talking about what goes in to designing the.
Speaker 2: Front cover of a book.
Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way
Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short, fortnightly newsletter that
Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me
Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving
Speaker 1: through to interesting research findings. You can sign up for
Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co. Now,
Speaker 1: the front cover of the book. People say you shouldn't
Speaker 1: judge a book by its cover, but inevitably that often
Speaker 1: happens when it comes to books. So how much involvement
Speaker 1: do authors get in the cover design?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: How does that whole process work?
Speaker 3: It's a fascinating process, and I can understand why people,
Speaker 3: you know, are interested in how it all happens, because, yeah,
Speaker 3: as you say, you know, we walk into a bookstore
Speaker 3: and you just see all those amazing covers and it's
Speaker 3: you know, often first contact that you have with the book,
Speaker 3: and it can be a really influential factor and to
Speaker 3: whether you decide to pick it up, whether you decide
Speaker 3: to buy it, not to mention all the kind of
Speaker 3: design ingenuity that goes into it. So it's certainly a
Speaker 3: really fun part of the process, part of the publishing process,
Speaker 3: and it begins really quite a long time before the
Speaker 3: book the book is published as well, so you know,
Speaker 3: it could be nine months or a year before the
Speaker 3: release date of the book we start working on the cover,
Speaker 3: and generally speaking, the publisher will brief a designers on,
Speaker 3: you know, the vision for the cover, where the book
Speaker 3: obviously is going to sit in the market, and what
Speaker 3: it's about, so they get a good understanding of what
Speaker 3: it is, any design inspiration and with as much information
Speaker 3: as we can pass on to them to sort of
Speaker 3: inspire that, the designer will then put together a range
Speaker 3: of different concepts and then they will be narrow down
Speaker 3: a little bit and then take into our covers meeting,
Speaker 3: so again we have representatives from those important parts of
Speaker 3: the business and we'll all get together and have a
Speaker 3: look at the concepts that we've got there and discussed
Speaker 3: which are the strongest. You know, often there can be
Speaker 3: multiple stages involved in that. It's it's an important thing
Speaker 3: to get right, and it's also good to get, you know,
Speaker 3: input from the author, and we'll always consult the author
Speaker 3: as well, because you know, you might have ideas and
Speaker 3: suggestions that we can take into consideration, and of course
Speaker 3: it's important for you to love the book cover as well.
Speaker 3: So it's it's the sort of process of whittling down
Speaker 3: and sometimes it can be really difficult because you've got
Speaker 3: a range of really fantastic designs and you have to
Speaker 3: narrow it down to just settle upon one. So it's
Speaker 3: a really collaborative process. And I do recall as well, Amantha,
Speaker 3: that you had put together your own sort of design
Speaker 3: inspiration boards. It is really really great because obviously you
Speaker 3: have such a clear idea about your vision for the
Speaker 3: book as well, so that fed into the brief and
Speaker 3: the process as well, so it all went into it
Speaker 3: to help us come up with a really fantastic cover
Speaker 3: that we've.
Speaker 2: Got, yes, which I love, And is that unusual?
Speaker 1: So what I gave you goth many many months ago, now,
Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'll take it upon myself to put together. Basically,
Speaker 1: I guess it was like a mood board for the
Speaker 1: cover based on other book covers that I really liked,
Speaker 1: that we're in a similar genre and the elements that
Speaker 1: I liked. And then I emailed that to you and
Speaker 1: I said, hey, do you want to share this with
Speaker 1: whoever was designing my cover? Is that like, is that
Speaker 1: an unusual thing to receive from an author or do
Speaker 1: A lot of authors that you work with have quite
Speaker 1: a clear vision for what they want in the cover
Speaker 1: that look like.
Speaker 3: It varies quite a lot. I think understandably a lot
Speaker 3: of authors have, you know, kind of ideas or aspirations
Speaker 3: for their cover because you know, it's part of visualizing
Speaker 3: your book at the end of the day, isn't it.
Speaker 3: So I can really understand that it's not that common
Speaker 3: to sort of receive it in the way that you did.
Speaker 3: But I like to ask my authors if they've got
Speaker 3: any particular ideas or sort of preferences with regard to
Speaker 3: their cover or if there are any books out there
Speaker 3: that they love the design of, just to get a
Speaker 3: sense of what their taste is. But I think what
Speaker 3: is really kind of key and what is a great
Speaker 3: benefit of working with a publishing house is that we
Speaker 3: have the expertise to do that work and to create
Speaker 3: a cover that's going to be really successful, because you know,
Speaker 3: as opposed to perhaps if you're yourself publishing, then you're
Speaker 3: responsible for all these different parts of the process. But
Speaker 3: it's really wonderful to have very skilled designers who have
Speaker 3: designed many book covers and to be able to bring
Speaker 3: all of that sort of inspiration and those suggestions together,
Speaker 3: but then really create something new out of it. That's
Speaker 3: really the goal. So that's sort of something that we
Speaker 3: are really thrilled to be able to offer.
Speaker 1: Now we're recording this in March, and time Wise is
Speaker 1: coming out on the fifth of July, and tomorrow I
Speaker 1: have a meeting with the marketing and publicity people at Penguin,
Speaker 1: which I'm very excited for. So what goes into a
Speaker 1: marketing campaign for a book.
Speaker 3: To be honest, the marketing process in a sense begins
Speaker 3: right at the beginning when we sign up the book.
Speaker 3: You know, as the publisher, I'm already thinking about how
Speaker 3: we can position the book in the market right from
Speaker 3: the beginning. It forms part of those initial decision making conversations,
Speaker 3: and then it's a I suppose it's a three stage
Speaker 3: process in terms of how we spread the message about
Speaker 3: the book. So first of all, the publisher is sort
Speaker 3: of marketing the book internally to the different departments, so
Speaker 3: talking about the book to the sales and marketing and
Speaker 3: publicity teams. Then those guys are talking to the booksellers,
Speaker 3: so they're marketing the book to the booksellers who are
Speaker 3: going to be selling the book to the consumer. And
Speaker 3: then there's the marketing to the consumer as well, so
Speaker 3: all of those people need to be excited and informed
Speaker 3: about the book. So there's kind of multiple things to
Speaker 3: think about there in terms of the marketing, and so
Speaker 3: all of this is informed by various meetings that we have.
Speaker 3: So we have a meeting called the positioning meeting where
Speaker 3: everyone gets together and talks in detail about what the
Speaker 3: book is, and that then informs the campaign meeting. So
Speaker 3: the dedicated marketer and publicist will get together with sales
Speaker 3: representatives and start planning what's going to go into the
Speaker 3: campaign and they work really closely together to sort of
Speaker 3: cover all bases and then also collaboratively with the author.
Speaker 3: So hence why we're going to be having that meeting tomorrow.
Speaker 3: So you know, there's we talked about the cover. That's
Speaker 3: obviously an important part of marketing. And then you know,
Speaker 3: one of the things that's that's maybe a bit unusual
Speaker 3: in terms of publishing is that actually marketing budgets are
Speaker 3: pretty small compared to other industries, so it's it's a
Speaker 3: case of working creatively and strategically to build awareness and
Speaker 3: buzz and obviously get word of mouth and anticipation going.
Speaker 3: So you know, the marketing will be thinking about that
Speaker 3: long next to sort of run up to publication. Perhaps
Speaker 3: we'll be planning special things for a pre order campaign.
Speaker 3: There'll be planning of digital marketing, so programmatic social media.
Speaker 3: We will be you know, perhaps getting some proof copies
Speaker 3: of the books and advanced copies of the book made
Speaker 3: so they can go to media and go to key influencers,
Speaker 3: all sorts of things. So there's a lot that goes
Speaker 3: into it, and that's why you know we have a dedicated,
Speaker 3: dedicated marketer to bring it all together and they will
Speaker 3: be as I said, starting to work on it months
Speaker 3: before publication.
Speaker 1: And now when the book is out and released, how
Speaker 1: at Penguin do you judge if it was a success.
Speaker 1: Is that purely based on sales figures?
Speaker 3: Certainly not. I mean they're sort of coming back to
Speaker 3: the decision making that happens at the acquisitions process. There
Speaker 3: are many reasons why we might sign up a book
Speaker 3: and want to publish it. Obviously we are thinking about
Speaker 3: the commercial potential of it, but you know, there could
Speaker 3: be other reasons. Perhaps it's about providing a platform to
Speaker 3: underrepresented voices, or investing in long term talent, or publishing
Speaker 3: a book that we really believe has a valuable contribution
Speaker 3: to the public discourse. So as well as looking at
Speaker 3: sales figures, which naturally we do, you know, there are
Speaker 3: things like winning awards or you know, generating important conversations
Speaker 3: and media. All of those things are sort of success factors.
Speaker 3: You know, they indicate that the book has had an impact,
Speaker 3: made a difference and is contributing in some way.
Speaker 1: So you've been immersed in my book time wise, definitely
Speaker 1: for the last few months, particularly with the editing process.
Speaker 1: I'd love to know because my producer said that when
Speaker 1: he was asking you about your working routines, that you've
Speaker 1: adopted some of the tips in my book, and I'd
Speaker 1: love to know, like which ones have had the biggest
Speaker 1: impact on the way that you work? Is he.
Speaker 3: I have? And this is one of the great privileges
Speaker 3: that I have getting to work with authors like Yo Mantha,
Speaker 3: because I get it's amazing access to your ideas and
Speaker 3: to try out some of the things that I learn
Speaker 3: as a result, and obviously time wise is chock full
Speaker 3: of really fantastic, actionable things to try, and so yes,
Speaker 3: I've definitely incorporated a few of them. I think one
Speaker 3: of the really great things in there is regarding chronotype
Speaker 3: and being aware I suppose of energy and focus throughout
Speaker 3: the day and trying to structure your working day in
Speaker 3: a way that aligns with that. So I am a lark,
Speaker 3: so I'm more most alert in sort of those first
Speaker 3: couple of hours after I wake up, and so having
Speaker 3: that insight in that understanding has allowed me to try
Speaker 3: and structure my day so that I'm doing my deep work,
Speaker 3: perhaps my editing or creative work in the morning sort
Speaker 3: of nine till twelve, and then doing shallow work in
Speaker 3: the afternoon and then perhaps doing some rebound deep work
Speaker 3: sort of five or six pm as office quiet ands down.
Speaker 3: And that's a real good kind of background structure that
Speaker 3: I've applied to my days and that really helps me to,
Speaker 3: you know, do that focused work that needs to happen
Speaker 3: and shape the day in a way that works better
Speaker 3: for me. And another sort of structure related point that
Speaker 3: I took from time Wise, which I think is a
Speaker 3: really really good one, is relating to you know, recognizing
Speaker 3: and accepting that the workday is finite. It's not possible
Speaker 3: to achieve the infinite numbers of number of things that
Speaker 3: you would like to do. So one of the chaps
Speaker 3: in your book you talk about scheduling a highlight, So
Speaker 3: identifying a big or an important task that will be
Speaker 3: really satisfying to get done and scheduling it using my chronotype,
Speaker 3: scheduling during my peak energy time during the morning and
Speaker 3: really prioritizing that and then you know, at the end
Speaker 3: of the day you can look back and really feel
Speaker 3: please that you've achieved that that highlight. And connecting in
Speaker 3: with that, I've certainly been trying to do more of
Speaker 3: the mono tasking and ordering the tasks on my to
Speaker 3: do list in a way that I don't move on
Speaker 3: to the next one until the current one is completed,
Speaker 3: because I think I'm certainly one of those people who
Speaker 3: has been guilty of thinking that I'm effectively multitasking, you know,
Speaker 3: like a lot of people. I have a job that
Speaker 3: has lots of multiple competing priorities, but actually it's so
Speaker 3: satisfying to stick to one thing and resist the interruption
Speaker 3: to keep moving through the day. And then another one
Speaker 3: that I really love and that actually had been doing
Speaker 3: prior to reading. Time wise is relating to focus, and
Speaker 3: it's about using sound to get into a flow state.
Speaker 3: So one of the things that I do is when
Speaker 3: I need to focus on deep work, such as editing
Speaker 3: or writing a picture, a creative brief, or perhaps I'm
Speaker 3: checking pages before they go to print, I use rain
Speaker 3: sounds as opposed to music, because obviously my work is
Speaker 3: very words based, so it's not so helpful to have
Speaker 3: lyrics going around. But I play rain sounds and have
Speaker 3: been doing that for such a long time now that
Speaker 3: my brain really associates that with getting into a focused
Speaker 3: state and concentrating on a big task. And obviously it
Speaker 3: helps to tune out any background background noise. So that's
Speaker 3: something that I do. Even when it's pouring with rain
Speaker 3: outside and I'm inside listening to rain. Still I still proceed.
Speaker 3: But it's such a go to that I couldn't live without.
Speaker 3: And I think some of those things that we don't
Speaker 3: necessarily think about about how we can use our physical
Speaker 3: environment to create a state that's going to help us
Speaker 3: to achieve our best work. That was a really eye
Speaker 3: opening thing for me when I was reading time wise.
Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. And finally enough, Yeah, there is a
Speaker 1: chapter on using music to almost get in to a
Speaker 1: work trats. But I heard a really interesting example recently.
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, I interviewed Brian Koppleman, who's
Speaker 1: the showrunner for Billion, and I'll be releasing that interview soon,
Speaker 1: and he was talking about when he writes scenes for
Speaker 1: Billions and also other TV shows and movies that he
Speaker 1: works on, he will write to a specific song and
Speaker 1: to kind of capture or bring to life a mood
Speaker 1: or an emotion that's pivot or pivotal to that scene,
Speaker 1: and quite often that song will actually make it into
Speaker 1: the Interbillions, which I found really interesting. I love that
Speaker 1: as a process. Now for people that are wanting to
Speaker 1: connect with you in some way, is it or maybe
Speaker 1: they've got a great book idea, what is the best
Speaker 1: way to connect with you? And also the Penguin Submissions portal.
Speaker 3: Yes, so our submissions process is set out on our website,
Speaker 3: so people can go to Penguin dot com dot au
Speaker 3: and it's all there. So definitely encourage people to do that.
Speaker 3: And I am also on LinkedIn as well if anyone
Speaker 3: would like to find me.
Speaker 1: Fantastic Izzy, I have loved this chat. We've obviously had
Speaker 1: many chats and many many emails, but it's just been
Speaker 1: so cool to just take the time and hear all
Speaker 1: about what goes on behind the scenes. I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: so sure that listeners will find this so valuable, particularly
Speaker 1: those that have a book idea sitting in the back
Speaker 1: of their head and maybe they're feeling I'm a little
Speaker 1: bit more excited to go do something with that.
Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3: I hope you.
Speaker 1: Found this chat helpful if you've ever thought about writing
Speaker 1: a book or have just been curious about the process.
Speaker 1: Even though time Wise is my third book, I learned
Speaker 1: so much about the whole publishing process through working with
Speaker 1: the amazing team at Penguin, And if you're curious as
Speaker 1: to the end product that I created, you can get
Speaker 1: your hands on time wise wherever you get.
Speaker 2: Your books from.
Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing, with production support
Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios.
Speaker 2: The producer for this.
Speaker 1: Episode Liam Riordan, and thank you tomt Nimba, who does
Speaker 1: the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound
Speaker 1: so much better than it would have otherwise.
Speaker 2: See you next time.