1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to how I work in the 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: last few months, you might have heard me mention that 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: I've been working on a new book called time Wise. 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 2: Okay, that's an understatement. 5 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: I have been talking about time Wise at nauseam, and 6 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: did I mention that it's out now wherever you get books? 7 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 2: Okay? 8 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,920 Speaker 1: Anyway, I've just spent the last eighteen months going through 9 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: the whole publishing process, from coming up with an idea 10 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: for a book, to pitching it to a publisher, to 11 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: getting a deal, to writing the book, to editing the book, 12 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: and now finally to marketing the book. And I've had 13 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: so many questions from my friends, clients, workmates about the 14 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: whole process, so I thought i'd share what goes on 15 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: behind the scenes. And who better to interview than the 16 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: amazing woman who commissioned my book time Wise for Penguin 17 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: Random House, Izzy Yates. Izzy is the head of the 18 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: publishing lab at Penguin Random House, and I. 19 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: Call her my book captain. 20 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: She's been in charge of guiding my new book all 21 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 1: the way from my initial proposal to a finished product 22 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: that is now in bookshops and online retailers. In my 23 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: chat with Izzy, she breaks down everything from how the 24 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: team at Penguin decide on the books that they publish, 25 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: through to what goes on between an author producing the 26 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: first draft of a book to polishing it to make 27 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: it ready to go to print. 28 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 2: My name is doctor Amanthea Immer. 29 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,479 Speaker 1: I'm an organizational psychologist and the founder of behavioral science 30 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: consultancy Inventium. And this is how I work a show 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,279 Speaker 1: about how to help you do your best work. 32 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: When I was offered a book deal with. 33 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: Penguin, I felt pretty bloody lucky and very very excited. Izzy, 34 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: who commissioned my book, only works on ten to twelve 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: books per year and I got to be one of those. 36 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: I imagined that Izzy receives a lot of pictures. 37 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 2: And I wanted to know where do all these. 38 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: Book pictures that she receives come from that eventually feed 39 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: into the select view that. 40 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: She decides to publish. 41 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 3: Well, they can come from a few different places, So 42 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,359 Speaker 3: some come to us through literary agents. Some of them 43 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 3: might reach us directly. So you know, sometimes I'll have 44 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 3: someone in my network who will be making an introduction 45 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 3: to someone they know who's got a book idea, and 46 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: then that starts the conversation that way. We do also, 47 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: you know, have direct submissions through through our website. Most 48 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 3: publishers do that. They have submission guidelines on their websites 49 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 3: so that anyone can put forward their manuscript or their proposal. 50 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 3: And then you know, often I might spot someone who's 51 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: doing interesting work that I think could be transferable to 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 3: a book, and in that case, I'll get in touch 53 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 3: with them and start a conversation about how we could 54 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 3: collaborate together. So it's really there's a range of different routes, 55 00:02:58,480 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 3: I suppose. 56 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 1: So when people reach out to you, like are they 57 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: sending you an entire manuscript or book? Like, what do 58 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: they actually send you? 59 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 3: Well, it differs actually depending on whether it's a fictional 60 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 3: nonfiction book. Usually, so because I just work on nonfiction books, 61 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: I'm generally just receiving a proposal. So whereas for a 62 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: fiction book, it would be normal to expect the whole 63 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: first draft of the manuscript to come through. For me, 64 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: it would be a proposal document, and that might be 65 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: somewhere between sort of ten and fifty pages, I suppose. 66 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 3: So it's you know, we're acquiring new projects based on 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: the concept, based on that outline and what's in the proposal, 68 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: but it's not until the book is actually signed that 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 3: the author, if they're a non fiction author, will then 70 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 3: go off and write the first draft. So we're not 71 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: necessarily buying it with a whole book to look at. 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: Okay, And so you've got essentially ten to twelve slots 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: if you like, in any given year, how many proposals 74 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: and pitches do you think would you estimate that you're 75 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: receiving that you need to narrow down to that ten 76 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: to twelve? 77 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: You know, it's probably several a week that I'm thinking 78 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: about coming from all those different places and then other ideas, 79 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 3: So there's a really big sort of pool to narrow 80 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: down essentially to get to those books that I'm going 81 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 3: to publish each year. 82 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So what makes for a really great pitch or proposal? 83 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 3: So I think, first of all, looking for a unique proposition, 84 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: so something that's new or a fresh take on an 85 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 3: existing idea or topic. I really am drawn to proposals 86 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 3: that have an important message. I love working with authors 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: who have a mission or a purpose, and working in nonfiction, 88 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: you know, I'm very passionate about books that will educate 89 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 3: or inspire or change thinking or behavior in some way, 90 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 3: I'm certainly looking for something that's very timely, maybe you know, 91 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 3: connects to or contributes to the zeitgeist. It should ideally 92 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 3: have a kind of clear and engaging voice coming through 93 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 3: from the author, and quality content of course, so you know, 94 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 3: a clearly structured proposal is always very, very helpful when 95 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: a publisher is kind of considering that that project to 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 3: potentially take it forward. We want to be able to 97 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: understand quickly what it's about, what makes it unique in 98 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: the market, what its strengths and differences are, and of 99 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: course understand who the author is and what they're about, 100 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: and what we might expect working with them, and ideas 101 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 3: for how we could sort of bring the book to 102 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: market and make it a great success together. 103 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: I remember talking to a literary agent in America and 104 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: talking about the American publishing market, and I remember he said, 105 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: with nonfiction books, particularly business and self development kind of books, 106 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: howablishers evaluate the I guess the strength of a proposal 107 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: is the uniqueness of the idea multiplied by the size 108 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 1: of the platform of the author. And I'm wondering in Australia, 109 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: how important is that when you look at the author 110 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: or the writer that's behind the idea. How important is 111 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: the size of their reach or platform or profile. 112 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 3: I would say it's definitely an important consideration, absolutely. You know, 113 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: audience is increasingly becoming very important and something that we 114 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: think about a lot as publishers. So someone who has 115 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 3: gotten established online community or you know, a brand and 116 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: perhaps a rich and influential network, all of those things 117 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 3: are going to really help with the success of the 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: proposal at that consideration stage. But as you say, and 119 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: as you sort of hinted that with that quote, you know, 120 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 3: it's only one component of it. So while we will, 121 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 3: you know, we consider consider that platform and that audience, 122 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: it also needs to tick all the other boxes, I suppose, 123 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 3: and we're also looking for that kind of spark and 124 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 3: the idea and other factors that point to the potential 125 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 3: of the book. But what's increasingly proven to be the 126 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 3: case and was really really exciting is the potential for 127 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: books that respond to trends and to existing markets and 128 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: established and identifiable markets that we can then really work 129 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: with those authors in a collaborative way to produce the 130 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: best book that that audience is going to really respond 131 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: to and love. 132 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: It's been probably about a year I reckon since my 133 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: book proposal hit your desk via my wonderful agent, Kathy, 134 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if you can cast your mind back 135 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: to receiving that proposal. It was not called time Wise then, 136 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: I think it was called how They Work was the 137 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: working title, And I'd love to know if you remember 138 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: what your initial thoughts were when you received that proposal. 139 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: Yes, I remember it well because it just grabbed me immediately. 140 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: To be honest, this was. 141 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 3: I would actually kind of put your proposal up there 142 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 3: as a bit of a gold standard, a manser as 143 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: with everything else that you've done throughout the publishing process. 144 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 3: But it was so well structured and clear, so you know, 145 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: I remember that it opened with a really excellent overview 146 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 3: that explained the concept but also what's unique about your book. 147 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: You'd really thought about where it would sit in the market, 148 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: its strengthen, its points of difference. One of the things 149 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 3: that blew me away, and certainly did with other people 150 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: in my team was your marketing plan that you'd included, 151 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: which was very, very comprehensive. It really showed that you'd 152 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 3: thought in depth about, you know, how we could work 153 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 3: together to make the book a success. It really showed 154 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 3: your passion and your commitment and your sort of your 155 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 3: determination to use the resources you already have at your 156 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 3: disposal in conjunction with what we would be doing, and 157 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: just full of ideas. I think I got a really 158 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 3: immediate sense of who you are and what you're about, 159 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 3: and what you will hope to achieve with the book. 160 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 3: And plus it you know, it had your warmth and 161 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 3: your energy on every page of it. So I just 162 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: I read it and I thought, I would love to 163 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 3: work with this person, and I think this would be 164 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: a fascinating book, one that would have a lot of people. 165 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: That's lovely fakes, you see, I'm blushing. You can't say 166 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: that though. Now it's all well and good for you 167 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: to like the proposal, but then there's a whole internal 168 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: sales process. Can you talk me through what happens when 169 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: you get a proposal and you fall in love with it. 170 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: What then happens then to actually get to the point 171 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: where you're offering an author a publishing contract. 172 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: The publisher such as myself is the first port of call, 173 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: and we're really right from the beginning, it's our job 174 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 3: to be the champion for the book and for the 175 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 3: author through the business. So the first the first step 176 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 3: is to take proposal to what we call in at 177 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: Penguin Random House are publishing meeting. So that's a meeting 178 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 3: with everyone in the publishing department, publishing director, the other publishers, 179 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 3: and commissioning editors and representatives of the editorial teams as well. 180 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 3: And what I will do is, as well as the 181 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 3: proposal from the author, I will craft a memo which 182 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: is my sort of personal pitch for the book as well, 183 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 3: share both of those with everyone in my team, and 184 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 3: then we'll come together to discuss discuss the book essentially 185 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: and talk about you know, it's meriots and what we 186 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: see the potential as being. So I'm going in there 187 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 3: to pitch it, and then if that goes well, then 188 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: I will take the proposal forward to our acquisitions meeting, 189 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 3: and that's a meeting with other representatives from the business, 190 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: all the key stakeholders really, so people from sales and 191 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 3: marketing and publicity, and again, you know, it's a pitching 192 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: process and it's all about sort of getting everybody on 193 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,079 Speaker 3: board discussing the potential of the book, where we think 194 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: it could sit in the market, what we think the 195 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: commercial potential will be and that's a pretty rigorous discussion 196 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: and always really really good because we want to you know, 197 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: put a lot of consideration into those decisions. They're important. 198 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 3: And then at the end of that meeting, if everyone 199 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: is really keen to go forward and proceed with the book, 200 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: then it's a case of you know, putting together an 201 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: offer to put to the author, to the agent and 202 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 3: hopefully securing a deal and moving to contracts. And then 203 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 3: really at that point, you know, the publishing process begins, 204 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 3: I suppose, and it's time to talk in more detail 205 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 3: about getting going with the writing process with the author. 206 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: So with books that get to the publishing meeting, what 207 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: percentage would make it to the next stage, which is 208 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: the acquisitions meeting. 209 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 3: We have a good conversion rate from the publishing meeting 210 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 3: to the acquisitions meeting. You know, everyone, every publisher has 211 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: already been quite careful and rigorous in sort of thinking 212 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 3: about which projects they're bringing forward to the publishing meeting, 213 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 3: and needless to say, lots of lots of ideas and 214 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: proposals don't make it to that point. And then once 215 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 3: we're at the acquisitions meeting, you know, we have about 216 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 3: fifty to seventy percent conversion rate I think for books 217 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 3: that have come to that meeting and that do end 218 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 3: up being published by us. 219 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: So once you've got the contracts on it and the 220 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: authors onboard, the actual writing of the book starts, so 221 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: theoretically the main part of the process. So how does 222 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: that work? How does that part of the process work, 223 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: from the authors starting to write the book through to 224 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: getting the proofs, which is the you know, essentially how 225 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,839 Speaker 1: the book will look in its printed form. 226 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: What happens Well, one. 227 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: Of the first things to say is that often that 228 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 3: is quite a lengthy process in terms of time, and 229 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: I think that's something that you know, people from outside 230 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 3: of publishing might not necessarily be aware of it can 231 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: it can be a year or two between you know, 232 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 3: that that contractual stage and having the book ready to 233 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 3: go to the printer. So it really depends on the 234 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: book of course, and the author and you know, their 235 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: their timeline for writing that first draft. Some are in 236 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 3: a position to go away and do it in a 237 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 3: few months, some need a lot longer. So, but generally speaking, 238 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: we work on a timeframe of sort of a year 239 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 3: from the delivery of the manuscript, the first draft of 240 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: the manuscript until publication, So add the writing time to 241 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 3: that and that's you know, that's how you can end 242 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: up with quite a number of months. So really again 243 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 3: speaking for the sorts of projects that I work on, 244 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: So after that contractual stage, then it's time to get 245 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 3: cracking with the writing. And obviously planning is really really 246 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 3: a scent or in that. I always like to, you know, 247 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 3: have a good sit down and conversation with the art 248 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: author at that point because generally speaking we'll have a 249 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 3: really strong outline of the book from the proposal. But 250 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: it's important to you know, get a strong sense of 251 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 3: what the content is going to be in the book 252 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: before the writing begins. And also, you know, mapping out 253 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 3: often a sort of deadline schedule can be very helpful. 254 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 3: We're thinking about sort of sixty to one hundred thousand 255 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: words on average for a book of this kind, and 256 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 3: you know that's a big project, it's a big writing undertaking. 257 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: So what I found is it certainly helpsful for authors 258 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,040 Speaker 3: if we sort of break that down into smaller chunks. Naturally, 259 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: chapters lend themselves well to that, and so we might 260 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: make a plan for delivery and just establish some of 261 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 3: those key milestones. Some authors quite like to you know, 262 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 3: perhaps their deliver doing a new chapter every fortnight, or 263 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 3: you know, we'll have a check in three months in 264 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: and we can see how it's all going with the writing. 265 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: So that planning and that sort of coaching through is 266 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 3: really helpful that I've found. And another thing that I 267 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: do like to do is sort of request the first 268 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 3: couple of chapters once they're ready, just the first draft, 269 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 3: so that I can have a read of those and 270 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: get a sense of the voice and the content. And 271 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 3: because course correction, you know, is obviously much more effective 272 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 3: if it can happen at an earlier stage. So it's 273 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 3: nice to check in once the writing has begun and 274 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 3: see how it's all going. And then we'll always just 275 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: sort of be in touch pretty frequently during that process, 276 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: and you know, I can also be a bit of 277 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: an accountability buddy and you know, help guide that writing 278 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 3: process along. And one of the things that I truly 279 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:00,040 Speaker 3: love about my job is the ability to do that 280 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 3: sort of real collaboration with authors, and so a lot 281 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: of the time, you know, I might be working with 282 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: authors who this is their first book publishing experience, and 283 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 3: perhaps they don't really come from a background of writing, 284 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 3: even if they come from another field of content creation, 285 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 3: and in that case it's really a sort of co 286 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 3: creation process, and we'll be thinking a lot about, you know, 287 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 3: what's their content from other platforms that have been really successful, 288 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 3: what's the mission and the purpose for this book, and 289 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 3: how can we create a book that is going to 290 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 3: be a really fantastic reflection of them and is going 291 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 3: to really appeal to their audience. So in those cases, 292 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 3: I get to be really quite heavily involved in that 293 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: sort of content creation, and that's always a really fantastic experience. 294 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: I've learned through this process that there are two editing stages. 295 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: So there's the structural edit and then there's the copy edit. 296 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: If I've given that stage the correct name, And time 297 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: Wise skipped over the structural edit. So I'm wondering if 298 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: you can comment on why and maybe what actually happens 299 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: during that stage. How big a process is it. 300 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so time Wise was fairly unusual in that regard, 301 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 3: and that's all credit to you a month where it's 302 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: because you already had such a fantastic structure in place 303 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 3: with the book. It was already working very very well 304 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 3: in your first draft that actually it didn't require a 305 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 3: structural edit. But generally speaking, the structural edit is all 306 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 3: about the book on a macro level, I suppose. So 307 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 3: we're thinking about how it flows from beginning to end. 308 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 3: Is it logical? Is all the content there that we want? 309 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 3: Is it in the right places? You know? Do we 310 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 3: need to think about moving things around a little bit. 311 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 3: Do we need more information in some places? Do we 312 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 3: need more kind of color and story in other places? 313 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 3: So it's that big picture look at the book, So 314 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 3: that happens first, and the feedback might take the form 315 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 3: of a structural report, so it might be a set 316 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: of notes that I would put together and perhaps some 317 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: comments in the margin as well, So that when that 318 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 3: structural edit is completed, it goes back to the author 319 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 3: and they get the chance to obviously read it all 320 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 3: through and make revisions to the manuscript based on that feedback. 321 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,200 Speaker 3: And then when the second draft comes in, that's when 322 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 3: the copy edit happens. And that's different because it's really 323 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 3: more detailed and it's focused on what's happening on the line. 324 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: Every single line of the manuscript will be read and 325 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: edited carefully. You know. Copy editors are incredibly skilled people 326 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: with remarkable attention to detail, so they'll be going through 327 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 3: and you know, scrutinizing I suppose the grammar and the 328 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 3: spelling and making sure there's clarity where there needs to 329 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 3: be and that's really sort of detailed, and because obviously 330 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 3: at that point the structure should all be hanging in 331 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,400 Speaker 3: place really nicely. So then that set of edits will 332 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 3: go back to the author again for them to review 333 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 3: and fix up any last last little things that they'd 334 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 3: like to change, and then it's off to typesetting when 335 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: we make it look like a book, which. 336 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: Is very exciting. 337 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 3: Now. 338 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,879 Speaker 1: I must say that I've worked with several editors before, 339 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: and the coffee editing stage I found quite amazing with 340 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: Penguin and with Clive, the amazing Clive he is listening, 341 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: who was my coffee editor. Although I feel like you 342 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: were kind of like a co editor with Clive at 343 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: that stage, I'm not sure how that relationship worked behind 344 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: the scenes. Did you guys kind of tag team on 345 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: that or did Clive do the main copy edit and 346 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: then he then threw it to you for questions or 347 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: how did that work? 348 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is one of those things that can differ 349 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 3: from book to book, but the way that we work 350 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 3: at Penguin Random House is every book has the publisher 351 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 3: or commissioning editor of course, and then a dedicated editor, 352 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 3: and the editor is responsible for sort of project managing 353 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 3: the book and also doing the close work on the text. 354 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 3: And it is remarkable and editors are so so wonderful 355 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 3: and very lucky to work with Clive and the other 356 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 3: editors that we have because they are just highly skilled 357 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: and absolutely fantastic. So because for time wise, you know, 358 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 3: there wasn't really that need for the separate structural edit, 359 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 3: Clive and I sort of took it in turns to 360 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 3: review the manuscript and you know, put our thoughts on 361 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 3: there for you and provide our feedback. So you know, 362 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 3: there are a few little minor structural things here and there, 363 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 3: which I was focusing on the structural side of things 364 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 3: more so, and Clive was focusing on the copy edit. 365 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 3: But it was very light. In fact, it was light 366 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 3: on both because it was an excellent draft, ah. 367 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 2: Because it didn't feel light on the copy edit. 368 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: So to give listens an idea of just how thorough 369 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: the process is, which I just I loved and probably 370 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: what could have been a very tedious and boring process 371 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: was made really quite joyous, like Clive is very funny 372 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: and also excellent at his job, but just to give 373 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: listen as an idea, Like I mean, Clive, when he 374 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,479 Speaker 1: was going through the manuscript would make comments like, you know, 375 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: you've used this term like in turn. I think was 376 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: maybe a phrase that I use as a like at 377 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 1: the beginning of sentences occasionally, you know, like twelve times 378 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: in this manuscript, and that's possibly too often. So can 379 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: we think of some alternative phrasing for that, like that 380 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: kind of thing, And like you know in this paragraph 381 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: you've used this, you know, maybe this adjective twice. So 382 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: can we just find an alternative given we don't want 383 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,200 Speaker 1: to repeat this word in the same paragraph. Just really 384 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 1: small things like that, which I think when you focus 385 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: through focus on all those things throughout a book just 386 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: improves readability and just engaging this so much, which is 387 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: stuff that I never really gave too much thought to 388 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: with anything I'd written prior to time wise. But now 389 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: even when I'm just writing, you know, seven hundred word 390 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: articles with the various places that I write, I now 391 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I have Clive's words in my head, 392 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: going think of a different adjective there. Please, you don't 393 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: call your readers, but. 394 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:29,919 Speaker 2: I loved that. 395 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: Now, how do you decide when a book is finished 396 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: and ready to be typeset? Like, because you can just 397 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: keep on tinkering, How do you know when it's done? 398 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 3: I know it can be a bit hard to let 399 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 3: go sometimes, I can imagine, but really it's you know, 400 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 3: after that copy edit stage has been completed and the 401 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 3: authors has responded to any queries and you know it's 402 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 3: happy with all the changes that have been made, at 403 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 3: that point, it should be ready to go off to typesetting, 404 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 3: and so you know, we'll clean up the document, get 405 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 3: everything in place, and the idea really after that is 406 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: when the pages come back from the type setter. It's 407 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: all about just weeding out and identifying any small last 408 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 3: errors that might be hiding in there somewhere, so that 409 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 3: it's ready to go to the printer. After we've done 410 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: that type setting, we're not really seeking to make any big, 411 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 3: big changes to the book. So that's a great stage 412 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: for the author. Firstly because you know, you get pages 413 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: that start to look like a book and you can 414 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 3: see the design and everything, so that's really brilliant. But 415 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 3: also because then you're kind of on the home stretch. 416 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 3: It's just fixing up the last little bits and pieces. 417 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 3: You know, the proofread will happen alongside the author review 418 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 3: of the pages. But then we're just tidying up and 419 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 3: getting it really, really polished and perfect before it goes 420 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,200 Speaker 3: to the printer. And then you can have a big 421 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 3: sigh of relief. 422 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,640 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I have passed that sage to the process, 423 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: so I've definitely had that side of Really. 424 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: We will be back soon with Izzy. 425 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 1: Talking about what goes in to designing the. 426 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 2: Front cover of a book. 427 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 428 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: that you work, I write a short, fortnightly newsletter that 429 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: contains three cool things that I've discovered that helped me 430 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: work better, ranging from software and gadgets that I'm loving 431 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: through to interesting research findings. You can sign up for 432 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 1: that at Howiwork dot code. That's how I work dot co. Now, 433 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: the front cover of the book. People say you shouldn't 434 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: judge a book by its cover, but inevitably that often 435 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,639 Speaker 1: happens when it comes to books. So how much involvement 436 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: do authors get in the cover design? 437 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 3: Like? 438 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: How does that whole process work? 439 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 3: It's a fascinating process, and I can understand why people, 440 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 3: you know, are interested in how it all happens, because, yeah, 441 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 3: as you say, you know, we walk into a bookstore 442 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 3: and you just see all those amazing covers and it's 443 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 3: you know, often first contact that you have with the book, 444 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: and it can be a really influential factor and to 445 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,440 Speaker 3: whether you decide to pick it up, whether you decide 446 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 3: to buy it, not to mention all the kind of 447 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 3: design ingenuity that goes into it. So it's certainly a 448 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,440 Speaker 3: really fun part of the process, part of the publishing process, 449 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: and it begins really quite a long time before the 450 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 3: book the book is published as well, so you know, 451 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 3: it could be nine months or a year before the 452 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 3: release date of the book we start working on the cover, 453 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 3: and generally speaking, the publisher will brief a designers on, 454 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 3: you know, the vision for the cover, where the book 455 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 3: obviously is going to sit in the market, and what 456 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 3: it's about, so they get a good understanding of what 457 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 3: it is, any design inspiration and with as much information 458 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: as we can pass on to them to sort of 459 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 3: inspire that, the designer will then put together a range 460 00:25:54,920 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 3: of different concepts and then they will be narrow down 461 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 3: a little bit and then take into our covers meeting, 462 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 3: so again we have representatives from those important parts of 463 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 3: the business and we'll all get together and have a 464 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: look at the concepts that we've got there and discussed 465 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: which are the strongest. You know, often there can be 466 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 3: multiple stages involved in that. It's it's an important thing 467 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 3: to get right, and it's also good to get, you know, 468 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: input from the author, and we'll always consult the author 469 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 3: as well, because you know, you might have ideas and 470 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,680 Speaker 3: suggestions that we can take into consideration, and of course 471 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 3: it's important for you to love the book cover as well. 472 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 3: So it's it's the sort of process of whittling down 473 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: and sometimes it can be really difficult because you've got 474 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 3: a range of really fantastic designs and you have to 475 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,719 Speaker 3: narrow it down to just settle upon one. So it's 476 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 3: a really collaborative process. And I do recall as well, Amantha, 477 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 3: that you had put together your own sort of design 478 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 3: inspiration boards. It is really really great because obviously you 479 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 3: have such a clear idea about your vision for the 480 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 3: book as well, so that fed into the brief and 481 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 3: the process as well, so it all went into it 482 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 3: to help us come up with a really fantastic cover 483 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 3: that we've. 484 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 2: Got, yes, which I love, And is that unusual? 485 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 1: So what I gave you goth many many months ago, now, 486 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,159 Speaker 1: I thought, well, I'll take it upon myself to put together. Basically, 487 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: I guess it was like a mood board for the 488 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,479 Speaker 1: cover based on other book covers that I really liked, 489 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 1: that we're in a similar genre and the elements that 490 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: I liked. And then I emailed that to you and 491 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: I said, hey, do you want to share this with 492 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: whoever was designing my cover? Is that like, is that 493 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: an unusual thing to receive from an author or do 494 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: A lot of authors that you work with have quite 495 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: a clear vision for what they want in the cover 496 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: that look like. 497 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 3: It varies quite a lot. I think understandably a lot 498 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 3: of authors have, you know, kind of ideas or aspirations 499 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: for their cover because you know, it's part of visualizing 500 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 3: your book at the end of the day, isn't it. 501 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 3: So I can really understand that it's not that common 502 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 3: to sort of receive it in the way that you did. 503 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: But I like to ask my authors if they've got 504 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 3: any particular ideas or sort of preferences with regard to 505 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 3: their cover or if there are any books out there 506 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 3: that they love the design of, just to get a 507 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 3: sense of what their taste is. But I think what 508 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 3: is really kind of key and what is a great 509 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 3: benefit of working with a publishing house is that we 510 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 3: have the expertise to do that work and to create 511 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: a cover that's going to be really successful, because you know, 512 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: as opposed to perhaps if you're yourself publishing, then you're 513 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 3: responsible for all these different parts of the process. But 514 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 3: it's really wonderful to have very skilled designers who have 515 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 3: designed many book covers and to be able to bring 516 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 3: all of that sort of inspiration and those suggestions together, 517 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: but then really create something new out of it. That's 518 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 3: really the goal. So that's sort of something that we 519 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 3: are really thrilled to be able to offer. 520 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: Now we're recording this in March, and time Wise is 521 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: coming out on the fifth of July, and tomorrow I 522 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: have a meeting with the marketing and publicity people at Penguin, 523 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: which I'm very excited for. So what goes into a 524 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: marketing campaign for a book. 525 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 3: To be honest, the marketing process in a sense begins 526 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 3: right at the beginning when we sign up the book. 527 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 3: You know, as the publisher, I'm already thinking about how 528 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 3: we can position the book in the market right from 529 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 3: the beginning. It forms part of those initial decision making conversations, 530 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 3: and then it's a I suppose it's a three stage 531 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 3: process in terms of how we spread the message about 532 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 3: the book. So first of all, the publisher is sort 533 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 3: of marketing the book internally to the different departments, so 534 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 3: talking about the book to the sales and marketing and 535 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: publicity teams. Then those guys are talking to the booksellers, 536 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: so they're marketing the book to the booksellers who are 537 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 3: going to be selling the book to the consumer. And 538 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 3: then there's the marketing to the consumer as well, so 539 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 3: all of those people need to be excited and informed 540 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 3: about the book. So there's kind of multiple things to 541 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 3: think about there in terms of the marketing, and so 542 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 3: all of this is informed by various meetings that we have. 543 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 3: So we have a meeting called the positioning meeting where 544 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 3: everyone gets together and talks in detail about what the 545 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 3: book is, and that then informs the campaign meeting. So 546 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 3: the dedicated marketer and publicist will get together with sales 547 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: representatives and start planning what's going to go into the 548 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 3: campaign and they work really closely together to sort of 549 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 3: cover all bases and then also collaboratively with the author. 550 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 3: So hence why we're going to be having that meeting tomorrow. 551 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 3: So you know, there's we talked about the cover. That's 552 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: obviously an important part of marketing. And then you know, 553 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 3: one of the things that's that's maybe a bit unusual 554 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 3: in terms of publishing is that actually marketing budgets are 555 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 3: pretty small compared to other industries, so it's it's a 556 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 3: case of working creatively and strategically to build awareness and 557 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: buzz and obviously get word of mouth and anticipation going. 558 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 3: So you know, the marketing will be thinking about that 559 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 3: long next to sort of run up to publication. Perhaps 560 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 3: we'll be planning special things for a pre order campaign. 561 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 3: There'll be planning of digital marketing, so programmatic social media. 562 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 3: We will be you know, perhaps getting some proof copies 563 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 3: of the books and advanced copies of the book made 564 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 3: so they can go to media and go to key influencers, 565 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 3: all sorts of things. So there's a lot that goes 566 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 3: into it, and that's why you know we have a dedicated, 567 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: dedicated marketer to bring it all together and they will 568 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 3: be as I said, starting to work on it months 569 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 3: before publication. 570 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: And now when the book is out and released, how 571 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: at Penguin do you judge if it was a success. 572 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: Is that purely based on sales figures? 573 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 3: Certainly not. I mean they're sort of coming back to 574 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 3: the decision making that happens at the acquisitions process. There 575 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: are many reasons why we might sign up a book 576 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 3: and want to publish it. Obviously we are thinking about 577 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 3: the commercial potential of it, but you know, there could 578 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 3: be other reasons. Perhaps it's about providing a platform to 579 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 3: underrepresented voices, or investing in long term talent, or publishing 580 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 3: a book that we really believe has a valuable contribution 581 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 3: to the public discourse. So as well as looking at 582 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 3: sales figures, which naturally we do, you know, there are 583 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 3: things like winning awards or you know, generating important conversations 584 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 3: and media. All of those things are sort of success factors. 585 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 3: You know, they indicate that the book has had an impact, 586 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 3: made a difference and is contributing in some way. 587 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: So you've been immersed in my book time wise, definitely 588 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: for the last few months, particularly with the editing process. 589 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to know because my producer said that when 590 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: he was asking you about your working routines, that you've 591 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: adopted some of the tips in my book, and I'd 592 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: love to know, like which ones have had the biggest 593 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: impact on the way that you work? Is he. 594 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 3: I have? And this is one of the great privileges 595 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 3: that I have getting to work with authors like Yo Mantha, 596 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 3: because I get it's amazing access to your ideas and 597 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: to try out some of the things that I learn 598 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 3: as a result, and obviously time wise is chock full 599 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:13,439 Speaker 3: of really fantastic, actionable things to try, and so yes, 600 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 3: I've definitely incorporated a few of them. I think one 601 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: of the really great things in there is regarding chronotype 602 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,440 Speaker 3: and being aware I suppose of energy and focus throughout 603 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 3: the day and trying to structure your working day in 604 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: a way that aligns with that. So I am a lark, 605 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 3: so I'm more most alert in sort of those first 606 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 3: couple of hours after I wake up, and so having 607 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 3: that insight in that understanding has allowed me to try 608 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 3: and structure my day so that I'm doing my deep work, 609 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,359 Speaker 3: perhaps my editing or creative work in the morning sort 610 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 3: of nine till twelve, and then doing shallow work in 611 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 3: the afternoon and then perhaps doing some rebound deep work 612 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 3: sort of five or six pm as office quiet ands down. 613 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 3: And that's a real good kind of background structure that 614 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,520 Speaker 3: I've applied to my days and that really helps me to, 615 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 3: you know, do that focused work that needs to happen 616 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,440 Speaker 3: and shape the day in a way that works better 617 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 3: for me. And another sort of structure related point that 618 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 3: I took from time Wise, which I think is a 619 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: really really good one, is relating to you know, recognizing 620 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 3: and accepting that the workday is finite. It's not possible 621 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 3: to achieve the infinite numbers of number of things that 622 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 3: you would like to do. So one of the chaps 623 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 3: in your book you talk about scheduling a highlight, So 624 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 3: identifying a big or an important task that will be 625 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 3: really satisfying to get done and scheduling it using my chronotype, 626 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 3: scheduling during my peak energy time during the morning and 627 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 3: really prioritizing that and then you know, at the end 628 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 3: of the day you can look back and really feel 629 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: please that you've achieved that that highlight. And connecting in 630 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 3: with that, I've certainly been trying to do more of 631 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 3: the mono tasking and ordering the tasks on my to 632 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,880 Speaker 3: do list in a way that I don't move on 633 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 3: to the next one until the current one is completed, 634 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 3: because I think I'm certainly one of those people who 635 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 3: has been guilty of thinking that I'm effectively multitasking, you know, 636 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 3: like a lot of people. I have a job that 637 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 3: has lots of multiple competing priorities, but actually it's so 638 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 3: satisfying to stick to one thing and resist the interruption 639 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,839 Speaker 3: to keep moving through the day. And then another one 640 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 3: that I really love and that actually had been doing 641 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 3: prior to reading. Time wise is relating to focus, and 642 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 3: it's about using sound to get into a flow state. 643 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 3: So one of the things that I do is when 644 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 3: I need to focus on deep work, such as editing 645 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 3: or writing a picture, a creative brief, or perhaps I'm 646 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 3: checking pages before they go to print, I use rain 647 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 3: sounds as opposed to music, because obviously my work is 648 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 3: very words based, so it's not so helpful to have 649 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 3: lyrics going around. But I play rain sounds and have 650 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 3: been doing that for such a long time now that 651 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,640 Speaker 3: my brain really associates that with getting into a focused 652 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 3: state and concentrating on a big task. And obviously it 653 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 3: helps to tune out any background background noise. So that's 654 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 3: something that I do. Even when it's pouring with rain 655 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,720 Speaker 3: outside and I'm inside listening to rain. Still I still proceed. 656 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,959 Speaker 3: But it's such a go to that I couldn't live without. 657 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 3: And I think some of those things that we don't 658 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 3: necessarily think about about how we can use our physical 659 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 3: environment to create a state that's going to help us 660 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 3: to achieve our best work. That was a really eye 661 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 3: opening thing for me when I was reading time wise. 662 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: Oh that's awesome. And finally enough, Yeah, there is a 663 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 1: chapter on using music to almost get in to a 664 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: work trats. But I heard a really interesting example recently. 665 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,600 Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago, I interviewed Brian Koppleman, who's 666 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: the showrunner for Billion, and I'll be releasing that interview soon, 667 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: and he was talking about when he writes scenes for 668 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: Billions and also other TV shows and movies that he 669 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: works on, he will write to a specific song and 670 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: to kind of capture or bring to life a mood 671 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: or an emotion that's pivot or pivotal to that scene, 672 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: and quite often that song will actually make it into 673 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: the Interbillions, which I found really interesting. I love that 674 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,680 Speaker 1: as a process. Now for people that are wanting to 675 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: connect with you in some way, is it or maybe 676 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,320 Speaker 1: they've got a great book idea, what is the best 677 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: way to connect with you? And also the Penguin Submissions portal. 678 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 3: Yes, so our submissions process is set out on our website, 679 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 3: so people can go to Penguin dot com dot au 680 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 3: and it's all there. So definitely encourage people to do that. 681 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 3: And I am also on LinkedIn as well if anyone 682 00:38:59,200 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 3: would like to find me. 683 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,399 Speaker 1: Fantastic Izzy, I have loved this chat. We've obviously had 684 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,439 Speaker 1: many chats and many many emails, but it's just been 685 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: so cool to just take the time and hear all 686 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 1: about what goes on behind the scenes. I'm just I'm 687 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: so sure that listeners will find this so valuable, particularly 688 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: those that have a book idea sitting in the back 689 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: of their head and maybe they're feeling I'm a little 690 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,359 Speaker 1: bit more excited to go do something with that. 691 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 2: So thank you so much for your time. 692 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 3: I hope you. 693 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: Found this chat helpful if you've ever thought about writing 694 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: a book or have just been curious about the process. 695 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,240 Speaker 1: Even though time Wise is my third book, I learned 696 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: so much about the whole publishing process through working with 697 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 1: the amazing team at Penguin, And if you're curious as 698 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,040 Speaker 1: to the end product that I created, you can get 699 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: your hands on time wise wherever you get. 700 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: Your books from. 701 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: How I Work is produced by Inventing, with production support 702 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: from Dead Set Studios. 703 00:39:58,520 --> 00:39:59,479 Speaker 2: The producer for this. 704 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: Episode Liam Riordan, and thank you tomt Nimba, who does 705 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: the audio mix for every episode and makes everything sound 706 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:08,320 Speaker 1: so much better than it would have otherwise. 707 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 2: See you next time.