WEBVTT - What about the Witnesses 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.080 Just before nine o'clock last night, the jury returned guilty 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:10.080 verdicts against all three defendants. It was absolutely shambles, to 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.680 tell you the truth, just absolutely really. Heamous blood on 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.200 his clothing the day after the alleged attap. 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:16.920 A show a mud bank and it fits through a river. 0:00:17.079 --> 0:00:19.119 Basically, I think most of the people are used to 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:20.600 me are good people. 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.280 I think a really important question we need to ask 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.360 is how many Indigenous prisoners in Australia are innocent. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:29.880 This is Curtain, a podcast where we pulled back the 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.440 blinds to shine a light on the darkest parts of 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.240 our justice system and ask who are the victims. I'm 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.519 Amy Maguire and. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:42.120 I'm Martin Hodgson, a senior advocate for the Foreign Prisoner 0:00:42.120 --> 0:00:46.480 Support Service. And a warning. This series contains the names 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:50.839 of deceased peoples and has distressing content that might upset 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:52.040 some listeners. 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.680 Last week I've heard in the podcast we told you 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.760 that we've received a host of new documents. It includes 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:03.520 witness statements that we hadn't had before, and a lot 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:09.440 more information that attests to Kevin's innocence. It also includes 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:15.000 an explosive revelation. Now, over the next few weeks, including 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:21.280 this week, we're going to detail a few of those revelations. Now, 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.720 most of your experience has been looking at post conviction, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.880 looking at bad investigations. Can you tell me a little 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:32.839 bit about some of the new evidence that we've uncovered 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:34.320 and what it is about Ken's case. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.200 Yeah, I mean, frighteningly, this is, as I've said before, 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:44.200 one of the worst police investigations I've seen. We've previously 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:48.680 detailed the flaws that occurred very early on in terms 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.040 of the way the crime scene was handled that it 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.360 took almost a full day up to twenty four hours 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:59.120 for it to be secured for evidence to be collected. 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.640 Last week we detailed some of the further problems with 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:08.800 the forensics and the washing down off the body after 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:13.519 it had been discovered. But something that jumps out immediately 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:18.560 is the first expert witness that the police spoke to. Now, 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.200 you have to remember that Linda was placed in the 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:27.840 river on the Saturday night. The Sunday, the police start 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.800 rounding everybody who had been at t Nuba house up, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.920 But it wasn't really until that night and into the 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:41.519 Monday that they started alleging that almost everyone there had 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:46.680 somehow been involved. But immediately there's a problem and the 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.720 police make a crucial mistake in their investigation. And the 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.720 first expert that they speak to is someone from boating 0:02:55.760 --> 0:02:59.640 and Fisheries who knows the river very well. And what 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.200 they were looking for this person to do is to 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:06.200 give them information on how the body would have got 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.799 to where it had been found in the river. You 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.760 would think therefore they were trying to trace backwards to 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:17.400 where the body had been placed in the river, but 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.680 rather than asking open ended questions, they simply put it 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.359 to this expert that the body had to have been 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:28.280 placed in the river at Tanuba House and for this 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.200 expert to tell them how that would take place. And 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:37.040 so the expert gives a statement as to how the 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:41.400 body would possibly get from this south side to Nuba 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.200 House all the way across to the north side and 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:50.320 then further downstream and just around the corner, despite there 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.440 being a drag mark parallel to the north side, and 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.320 as we've spoken about in the podcast, all the evidence 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.800 suggests the body was placed in the river on the 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:07.360 north side, but the police wanted an expert witness to 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:10.040 tell them how it would have been placed on the 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.880 south side because that would link the people at Tanuba House, 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.480 including Kevin, to the crime. But this is not how 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:22.400 you conduct an investigation. You don't ask people a leading question, 0:04:22.560 --> 0:04:26.359 especially not an expert, and make assumptions you don't know 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:30.039 to be fact, they didn't know the body had been 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.880 placed in on the south side. They either simply assumed 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.880 it had because everyone had been at Tanuba House, or 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.840 they wanted it to because they knew for Kevin to 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:46.200 be charged it had to be placed on Tanuba House. 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.440 So the expert comes up with quite a crazy theory, 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.279 including the movement of Eddi's the tides having to be 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:01.560 a particular way, whirlpool effects the outflow of the Gaviel Creek, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:07.360 all combining with a clockwise whirlpool effect on the surface 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:11.240 of the water, and goes on and on about these things. 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:18.440 Now the expert gives this statement and it's quite detailed, 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.919 and again what they're trying to do is assist the 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:24.640 police because they've been told clearly the body must have 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.839 been placed in the south side. But what the expert 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:31.719 does at the very end before they're cutoff, is they 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:36.479 say this the other suggestion which could attribute to the 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.680 position to where the body was found would be that 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:43.400 the body had simply followed the northern bank prior to 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.640 going around the corner of the river. So here on 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:51.960 the Monday, less than forty eight hours after the events 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:56.520 had taken place, the expert who was giving them information 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.240 as to how the body would have got to that 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.400 northern side says, you've told me it's gone in on 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:07.440 the south side, and they've given their best possible explanation 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.600 of how that could happen, and it's pretty far fetched. 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.799 They decide to end their statement by saying, quite simply, 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.919 it could have just gone in on the north side. 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.720 The police simply ignored that part of the evidence. We 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.760 know for a fact, and by their own admission, they 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.440 never looked at anyone else. They never looked at who 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.240 could have placed the body on the other side of 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:38.839 the river. So immediately we know that the investigation was 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:43.080 skewed to catching someone who was at Tanuba House that night, 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.840 because that's where the police had decided, without any information, 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.880 without any of the forensics coming back, without an autopsy, 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:55.320 without a cause of death, that that's where the body 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.839 had been placed in the river, And so they began 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:01.239 their whole investigation on a foul assumption. 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.920 Martin. It just seems amazing that the police would simply 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:13.320 accept such a a strange occurrence to how the body 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.320 would have land up on the north side of the 0:07:15.320 --> 0:07:17.760 bank from the south side. I mean, why didn't police 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:24.080 just take the assertion that it probably just traveled up 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:25.120 the north side of the bank. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.760 Well, they were asked about this in court, and really 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:35.360 they gave very straightforward answers, which is, once they grabbed Kevin, 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:40.600 he was their man. And we've spoken about this in 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.320 the podcast before that they really didn't seek to properly 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:49.320 investigate anyone other than those who had been at tan 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:55.360 uber House and more specifically Kevin. So even testimony an 0:07:55.440 --> 0:07:59.920 a statement less than forty eight hours after Linda's death 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.360 and her body had been found from an expert, they 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.720 simply ignored that information and that evidence because it didn't 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.160 fit with the person they were going after, and that 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:16.040 being Kevin Henry. And that clearly bleeds in to the 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.680 rest of their investigation because we know that, as we've 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:26.680 spoken about in the past, that Duckhart didn't have an alibi, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.120 and yet the police, when asked on the stand, did 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.040 they bother to check his alibi? They said no, they 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.640 simply took his word for it, despite other witnesses on 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.120 the stand saying his alibi not only didn't stack up, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:45.600 but that he was there that night. Now, again, we 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.240 are not at all saying that Duckhart was involved in 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:53.760 the murder of Linda. What we are saying is that's 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:58.000 another person who gave evidence that because it didn't fit 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:01.800 with trying to convict Kevin Henry, it was simply dismissed. 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.080 The other thing I got from the fisheries expert was 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.120 the fact just how much more likely it was that 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.160 the events we now know probably occurred would have happened 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.080 rather than just her body being put in on the 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.720 south side of bank. I mean, it seems very a 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:22.280 lot more likely again that her body was put in 0:09:22.360 --> 0:09:24.760 on the north side and that it travels other than 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.280 north side. So I mean, it's just another example of 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.320 evidence that could be used for Kevin's innocence. 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.120 That's right. And I think one thing I should point 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:39.440 out that I think is very critical is that this 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:44.040 new statement that we have we've only received in the 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:51.679 last week now. We used historic title records, forensic techniques, 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:56.319 and other information to determine as part of our investigation 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.840 that the body had been placed in on the north side. Then, 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:07.160 months after our investigation had determined that, we had witness 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:12.680 X's statement again something we'd only gotten at that time, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:16.880 and it was an eyewitness testimony again that the body 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.920 had been placed on the north side. Now in the 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:25.720 last ten days we get an expert saying that, yeah, 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.480 it could have been placed on the south side, and 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.600 here are all these things that would have to align 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.440 for that to take place. But in one sentence they 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.520 ended by saying, really, it's more likely that it was 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:42.080 just simply put in on the north side, and that's 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:46.760 why it followed the northern bank. So I think you've 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:52.240 got three things here, which is that an impartial investigation 0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:56.520 that uses science, as we did with the assistance of 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:00.680 overseas experts, shows the body was placed on the Norise side. 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:06.320 An eyewitness whose testimony we'd never seen before and those 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:10.520 assisting us had never seen before, says they saw it 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.960 being placed on the north side, and the police's own 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.600 expert offered that up as the more likely scenario. And 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:23.600 yet this was totally ignored and never investigated. The police 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.320 did not go to the north side of the river 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:31.560 and scan the river bank there for evidence, and who 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.199 knows what they could have found had they done so so. 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:38.240 Martin, it seems that the police's own questioning of their 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:44.400 fisheries expert shows exactly where they were going with this investigation, 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:48.040 that they wanted to convict Kevin Henry and they didn't 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:51.800 work anywhere else for any other suspects. Looking at the 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.240 information we've just uncovered in the past week or so, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.120 was there any other witness statements that attest to that 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:01.040 as well? 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:04.560 There certainly is, And one thing that we've spoken about 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.960 before is the sheer number of statements that were taken 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:14.920 from single individuals, so that multiple statements. We know Wayne 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:19.400 Saunders was forced to give up to five statements over 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:24.240 months and months because quite clearly the police had this 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:28.840 forensic piece of information that didn't link Kevin Henry to 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:35.120 the crime. And after this fisheries experts evidence came back, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:38.760 there was more evidence that wouldn't link Kevin to the crime. 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.000 The cause of death and the autopsy and the forensic 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.920 work done showed there was no forensic evidence that linked 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:52.800 Kevin to the crime. No blood his clothes, no mud, 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.280 none of the water stains, all the things we've spoken 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.640 about in the past. So all the forensic evidence pointing 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:05.559 away from Kevin Henry. And this is where I want 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.920 to bring in another case I've worked on, and a 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:14.000 case that people who follow perhaps the death penalty, American 0:13:14.080 --> 0:13:20.160 politics and these sort of poor investigations may be familiar with, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.199 and that is Cameron Todd Willingham. He was a Texan 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:28.680 man who was executed for burning down his own house 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:35.599 and that resulted in the death of his children. Now, immediately, 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:40.960 in that case, the forensic evidence did not point to 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:47.880 mister Willingham, and some of the evidence was so far 0:13:48.040 --> 0:13:52.479 fetched and so absurd that mister Willingham couldn't be arrested 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:57.080 straight away. So instead, with all the forensic evidence pointing 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:01.760 away from the person the police wanted, they turned to 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.800 witnesses who were in prison, and this is what we 0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:09.560 call Jarle House informants. And in that case, there was 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.080 a person by the name of Johnny Webb who testified 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:17.760 that once Willingham had finally been arrested and was in prison, 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:23.120 that he'd confessed to this crime that had killed his 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.440 own children, and that he'd told him how he'd done it, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.960 and he'd told him some of the things that occurred 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:35.920 now this evidence that this jail house informant gave did 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:41.080 not match the forensics either, and so in that case, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:45.120 the police went back to the forensic experts, some of 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:51.040 whom would later be imprisoned for giving false testimony, to 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.280 make them change or ask them to change their statements. 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.240 And so if we go to Kevin's case and the 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:05.840 list of witnesses, almost all the witnesses were interviewed in 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:09.440 the first week, and that's the first week of September 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:14.680 nineteen ninety one. But many of those witnesses would be 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.880 asked to come back to the police station and give 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.120 more statements, and many were pursued to prison where they 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:26.280 were being held for some for minor crimes, others for 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:32.480 outstanding warrants, where they were asked to clarify the comments 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:37.320 they'd previously made. And many of these new statements were 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:42.520 given months later. So there's a list in November of 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.640 six more people who gave statements, and these were follow 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:52.640 up statements. They were asked very specific questions, again only 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.280 relating to Kevin Henry that would help the police circumvent 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:04.880 the forensic evidence. Now it's quite clear why you don't 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:10.120 take evidence from what we know as jail house informants 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:14.120 a there's someone who's in prison, they have nothing to 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.840 gain other than their own freedom, which is often what 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:23.120 is being bargained for. Now, in the case of Cameron 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:28.400 Todd Willingham, this witness, who by his own admission, would 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:32.360 later state that he did perjure himself and that he 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:37.320 lied about everything Cameron Todd Willingham told him, was assisted 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.760 by the prosecutor of Cameron Todd Willingham to get a 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:45.320 reduced sentence and an early release on another crime. Now 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:49.040 we don't know exactly if this has happened in Kevin 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:53.600 Henry's case, but what we can say is despite many 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:58.080 of the people who were there that night having extensive 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:03.200 criminal records, only Kevin Henry went to prison for an 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:08.119 extended period of time, and that alone is troubling. But 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:13.320 also what is really troubling is every single one of 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:18.000 these addendum statements, some that were given just a week 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:23.639 before Kevin's trial began in April the following year, completely 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:29.320 contradicted the evidence these people had given just forty eight 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:33.720 hours after the events had taken place. So what the 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:38.080 police are asking us to believe is that the statements 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:42.960 these people gave which were very lengthy and many were 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:48.520 probably true, weren't accurate because they didn't mention Kevin and 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.119 they didn't point to Kevin. But suddenly, when they're interviewed 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:56.040 again for the fourth or fifth time, months and months 0:17:56.200 --> 0:18:00.280 after the events, some just a week before Kevin was 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.880 to go on trial, these people were able to give 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:09.399 information that, while it wouldn't implicate Kevin directly because there 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.359 was no evidence to do so, it would at least 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:16.159 help not remove the forensic evidence from the record. It 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.080 would try and back it up. And each one of 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:24.919 these witnesses who had done this, for the most part, 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:29.000 admitted their lives on the stand and that they had 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.320 given false statements. I'm not going to name the individuals. 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.760 Some are still alive and have been traumatized by these events, 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.080 and we don't know the pressure that was placed on 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:45.719 them by the police, especially given they had been there 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.920 that night. They may have had nothing whatsoever to do 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:55.280 with Linda's death. But remember, the police had accused at 0:18:55.400 --> 0:19:01.200 least five people and charged them with various events. Four 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:06.320 had been charged with murder. Others, like Wayne Saunders, had 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:10.560 been accused on multiple occasions, even though he had nothing 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:14.000 to do with the crime. And so these were all 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:18.440 people under extreme stress, and suddenly, just a week or 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:24.000 so before the trial, they're changing their statements. So, to 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:28.119 give an example from Kevin's trial, one of the witnesses 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:33.560 who gave multiple statements and who changed their statement each time, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:40.640 added two particular things. Now they gave these statements well 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:45.360 after the initial statement and after Kevin had been charged 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:49.320 with murder, and their final statement was the one that 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:54.119 was given just a week before Kevin went to trial. 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:57.520 Two of the things they added, and they were just 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:03.119 very short addendums to some of their original statements, seemed 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:08.080 to be to help the police convict Kevin because they're 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:13.000 directly related to Kevin and directly related to two very 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:18.520 crucial things that were going to occur at the trial. One, 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:22.840 of course, is the confession, because that's the only piece 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:28.280 of evidence that the police had. Now remembering that most 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:32.600 of this confession was ruled inadmissible by the judge. Now, 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:37.600 this witness, who was in prison at the time, said 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:42.400 that they'd heard this confession and stated things that they 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:46.720 said they'd heard. Now, not only were these things not 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.000 in the confession, the things that this person, this witness, 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:56.679 this jail house informants say are completely impossible based on 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:03.040 the evidence, the forensic evidence, so those parts wouldn't even be, 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.560 for the most part, presented in trial other than they'd 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:14.920 heard this supposed confession. But for the sake of Linda's family, 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:21.000 I won't say what their particular claim was, but needless 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.879 to say, it could not be substantiated in any way 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:30.000 by any of the forensic information from the prosecution's own 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:35.560 forensic witnesses, and it was patently absurd what was said. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:40.600 The second thing they added also related to the confession, 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.520 and this was that this witness said, this jailhouse informant 0:21:46.600 --> 0:21:53.280 said that somehow they knew that Kevin was being videotaped 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:59.479 when he gave his confession. Now, first, there's a problem 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:04.280 here because because this person can't testify as to what 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:10.359 Kevin did or didn't know. But more broadly, it didn't 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:13.600 actually again match up with the facts of the case. 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.360 But again, this was a person trying to assist police 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:23.760 in inverted commas to point the finger at Kevin Henry. 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:28.480 And again it was part of this dodgy statement that 0:22:28.720 --> 0:22:33.160 helped a large part of this supposed confession of Kevin 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:37.200 Henry's be thrown out because again it was just absurd. 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:42.040 So we have two statements where from the same witness 0:22:42.080 --> 0:22:45.480 so we know was in prison, who we know had 0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:50.000 something to gain, who was released after they gave evidence 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.680 at the trial. So this is a witness who gives 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:57.840 a statement just forty eight hours after the crime, nothing 0:22:57.920 --> 0:23:02.400 really relating to Kevin or anything that would be helpful, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.960 and then we're just a week to go before Kevin's trial, 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:11.119 six months after the events that occurred. Is suddenly trying 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:15.840 to assist the police. But unfortunately for the police, in 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:20.359 this attempt, the witness was not capable of coming up 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:24.119 with anything remotely close to the truth. And not only 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:27.639 did they contradict their earlier statements, they said things that 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:31.399 just everyone knew couldn't possibly be true. And this is 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:35.680 one of the clear flaws of trying to pressure witnesses 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:40.440 to elicit statements from jailhouse informants. Often what they say 0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:44.560 is just clearly fanciful. But this person did give evidence 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.760 at the trial and was released from prison shortly after. 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:51.920 Clearly this is a flawed investigation. 0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:56.159 Martin. I know that you said that there was a 0:23:56.240 --> 0:24:00.879 number of witnesses who changed their statement, but do we 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:04.440 know what sort of motivations would have been behind that, 0:24:05.040 --> 0:24:07.480 why they would have lied in these statements. 0:24:08.240 --> 0:24:08.440 Yeah. 0:24:08.480 --> 0:24:11.439 I think in some cases we do know for sure 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.760 why that they told a lie in those statements, and 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:19.760 that's because on the stand they say why. So with 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:25.120 someone like Wayne Saunders in this case, he was being 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:28.439 threatened by the police. He was in prison at the 0:24:28.520 --> 0:24:32.720 time for a very minor issue, and the police continued 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.920 and continued to harass him. We also know that some 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:42.520 of the others were facing some minor criminal charges, very 0:24:42.560 --> 0:24:46.080 minor things, and as we know at the time Aboriginal 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:50.600 people were frequently denied bail, So these were people who 0:24:51.240 --> 0:24:54.800 had committed very, very minor crimes that would normally see 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:59.119 non Indigenous people out on the street and simply given 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.639 a court notice. But we know that at the time 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:10.600 the Rockhampton Watchhouse, where people awaiting their own trial, people 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:16.240 who were on remand were being held, was severely overcrowded, 0:25:16.680 --> 0:25:20.439 so much so that female prisoners were being held with 0:25:20.600 --> 0:25:25.600 male prisoners. This is hugely unacceptable, and that this was 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.720 largely people who had no business being in prison in 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:31.720 the first place, and that included people who were there 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.000 that night at Tanuba House. They were being held for 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:38.639 things they either didn't do or didn't need to be 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:42.480 held on Remand for now, this is such a big 0:25:42.520 --> 0:25:47.600 issue that this is not just something that defense lawyers raise. 0:25:48.320 --> 0:25:51.720 The FBI has its own unit that looks into this 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:57.960 and has released multiple manuals as to why jailhouse informants 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:03.159 and people who give multiple statements shouldn't be used or 0:26:03.200 --> 0:26:07.399 should not be taken credibly. And I'll read from the FBI. Remember, 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:11.199 these are people trying to catch criminals. This are not 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:15.679 people trying to defend them. Why they say the motivations 0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:19.200 for these statements could be dubious, and why the information 0:26:19.359 --> 0:26:23.640 in them often is They include things like financial reward, 0:26:24.320 --> 0:26:29.600 promise of pre trial, release from custody, withdrawal or dismissal 0:26:29.720 --> 0:26:37.040 of other criminal charges, reductions of sentences, elimination of other 0:26:37.119 --> 0:26:42.280 people that they don't like, revenge. And remember we have 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:47.840 heard an eyewitness talk about an individual in this case who, 0:26:47.920 --> 0:26:52.240 by their own admission, hated Kevin Henry. Then there's also 0:26:52.359 --> 0:26:56.080 reasons for self preservation, and I think these are quite 0:26:56.560 --> 0:27:00.040 likely to have occurred in this particular case given the 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:04.919 discrimination Aboriginal people face. And these are fear or harm, 0:27:05.680 --> 0:27:11.280 threat of arrest or charges, threat of incarceration, or people 0:27:11.320 --> 0:27:14.960 who have a desire to enter into the witness protection 0:27:15.080 --> 0:27:21.040 program and need that assistance. The other issue, of course, 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:24.720 too is that people can have a genuine desire to 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:30.000 assist law enforcement and they want to help, but as 0:27:30.040 --> 0:27:34.200 the FBI warns, these people who want to help are 0:27:34.280 --> 0:27:39.000 often fared inaccurate information by the police so that their 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:42.760 statement will match with the police's version of events and 0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:46.520 not the facts and not the forensics. And I think 0:27:46.560 --> 0:27:49.199 it's safe to say we know that that to be 0:27:49.320 --> 0:27:54.600 true from this case, and clearly we're talking about a 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:59.520 largely vulnerable group who this occurred to, of Aboriginal people. 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:04.440 Do not forget that the very first witness whose evidence 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:09.119 was contaminated in this way was the fisheries officer. So 0:28:09.840 --> 0:28:12.480 you have to remember that while people sitting at home 0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:17.640 might think they'd always tell the truth, people often are 0:28:17.760 --> 0:28:20.879 telling what they believe to be the truth, or they 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:24.520 are trying to assist the police, but the information the 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:28.919 police provide them often results in them telling a version 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:30.879 of events that is simply not true. 0:28:31.160 --> 0:28:33.480 Am I just to clarify when we look all up 0:28:33.480 --> 0:28:36.200 at all of the witness statements given, were they any 0:28:36.320 --> 0:28:42.040 given that were first statements original statements that actually incorinated given? 0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:46.680 No. And I think that's one of the most damning 0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:50.760 things about all of this is that no one pointed 0:28:50.800 --> 0:28:56.480 the finger at Kevin early on, particularly in that first week, 0:28:56.680 --> 0:29:00.960 where you would expect those who were eyewitnesses to have, 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:04.840