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Speaker 1: My name is Lily Maddon and I'm a proud Arunda

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Speaker 1: Bungelung Caalcuttin woman from Gadighl Country. The Daily oz acknowledges

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Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on the lands of the

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Speaker 1: Gadighl people and pays respect to all Aboriginal and Torres

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Speaker 1: Strait Island and nations. We pay our respects to the

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Speaker 1: first peoples of these countries, both past and present.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and welcome to the Daily os. It's Thursday,

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Speaker 2: the tenth of August. I'm sam Becauseloski.

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Speaker 3: I'm Zara, Saidler.

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Speaker 2: It's easy to imagine how AI could pose a threat

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Speaker 2: to writers, but how could this technology pose a threat

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Speaker 2: to actors?

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Speaker 4: If a movie came out with me and Tom Cruise

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Speaker 4: and Julia Roberts and none of us actually worked on

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Speaker 4: the movie, I think I would lose my mind.

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Speaker 2: Joe Kiley, our head of video here at TDA, is

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Speaker 2: going to join us on the podcast today to explain

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Speaker 2: what you need to know in the Deep Dive. But first,

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Speaker 2: Aara the Headlights.

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Speaker 3: Shows coral recovery on the Great Barrier REEF has stalled.

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Speaker 3: In its annual report, the Australian Institute of Marine Science

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Speaker 3: found coral cover had declined in all regions of the

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Speaker 3: reef following significant recovery efforts in recent years.

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Speaker 2: A crime scene has been established after a body was

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Speaker 2: discovered in a pond at a private golf club in Sydney.

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Speaker 2: Police divers were called in to retrieve the body at

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Speaker 2: the Lake's Golf Club in the city's East on Wednesday.

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Speaker 2: Investigations are continuing.

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Speaker 3: Ozzie fashion brand Zimmerman has sold a majority stake in

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Speaker 3: the business. The sale is set to be aimed at

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Speaker 3: helping Zimmerman expand into overseas market and strengthen its online presence.

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Speaker 3: The brands founders, sisters Nicki and Simone Zimmerman, will continue

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Speaker 3: to occupy senior roles in the business.

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Speaker 2: And today's good news. For the first time ever, there's

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Speaker 2: an all female nominee list for the MTV Video Music

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Speaker 2: Awards Artist of the Year category. Taylor Swift, Beyonce Shakira,

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Speaker 2: and Nicki Minaj are among those nominated. The awards scrapped

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Speaker 2: gendered categories in twenty seventeen. The twenty twenty three VMA's

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Speaker 2: will be held next month in New Jersey. It's been

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Speaker 2: really fun over the last little while, bringing different members

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Speaker 2: of the TDA team onto the podcast, and today i'd

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Speaker 2: like to introduce you the Joe Kylie, our head of

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Speaker 2: Video Joe to your podcast debut.

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Speaker 5: Thank you very much, Sam, happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: It's fantastic to have you on, especially to talk about

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Speaker 2: this investigation you've been doing into AI artificial intelligence in Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: You've been doing this for a few weeks. Now go

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Speaker 2: back a little bit for me. Where does all of

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Speaker 2: this start for you?

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Speaker 5: So, since May, we were following the story of the

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Speaker 5: writers strike happening in Hollywood, and then in July when

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Speaker 5: the actors also joined the picket lines. You know, one

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Speaker 5: hundred and sixty thousand of them. It's not just your

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Speaker 5: Matt Damon's and your and your Julia Roberts. It's all

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Speaker 5: of these people coming together to strike with writers. But

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Speaker 5: when I saw that one of the issues that they

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Speaker 5: had was that they were facing a reality where their

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Speaker 5: likeness could appear in future productions without their consent, and

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Speaker 5: of course, with no payments for that work. That's when

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Speaker 5: alarm bell started ringing in my head and I thought,

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Speaker 5: there's a really interesting story here.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like we're all going on some sort

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Speaker 2: of an education journey with AI. The first that I

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Speaker 2: kind of really knew about it was through a chat GBT,

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Speaker 2: which was only a couple of months ago, and now

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Speaker 2: it's working its way, as you said, into all of

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Speaker 2: these different sectors. We have spoken about those actor and

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Speaker 2: writer strikes on the podcast. I'll throw a link into

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Speaker 2: the show notes for anyone to go have a back listen.

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Speaker 2: But where does AI come into the reason why actors

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Speaker 2: and writers are actually striking.

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Speaker 5: We'll get to the AI stuff in a second, but

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Speaker 5: I think it's important to unpack the financial side of

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Speaker 5: this story and understand what a residual actually is. Residuals

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Speaker 5: you can kind of think of them like royalties. So

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Speaker 5: whenever someone works on a TV show or a film,

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Speaker 5: when it's broadcast or rerun, they receive a small payment

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Speaker 5: each time.

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Speaker 2: So to give an example, if you're Jennifer Aniston and

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Speaker 2: you're working on Friends, you get paid for that first

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Speaker 2: year that you're actually filming the series, but then every

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Speaker 2: time I'm watching it on freeware networks in Australia, she's

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Speaker 2: getting a little bit of money there exactly.

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Speaker 5: So every time you know, the Nanny or Friends or

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Speaker 5: Seinfeld or these kind of shows, that have been on

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Speaker 5: there for a long time. Anytime those episodes aired anywhere

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Speaker 5: around the world, those original creators were paid a nice

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Speaker 5: fee actually right, so you could make a living off

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Speaker 5: what they were getting paid. Absolutely, and this is one

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Speaker 5: of the big issues. Streaming has come along is completely

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Speaker 5: upended a lot of these kind of systems. Not only

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Speaker 5: actors and writers working for shorter periods of time because

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Speaker 5: the number of episodes that have been produced are a

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Speaker 5: lot shorter, but the income that were filling those gaps

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Speaker 5: in between jobs has reduced. Okay, so how does AI

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Speaker 5: then fit into that? So yes, So the chief negotiator

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Speaker 5: for the Actors Union, Duncan Crabtree, Ireland, he talked about

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Speaker 5: a proposal that they'd received from film studios and production companies.

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Speaker 6: They proposed that our background performers should be able to

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Speaker 6: be scanned, get paid for one day's pay, and their

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Speaker 6: companies should own that scan, their image, their likeness and

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Speaker 6: should be able to use it for the rest of

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Speaker 6: eternity and any project they want, with no consent and

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Speaker 6: no compensation.

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Speaker 5: We've all heard about writers talking about CHATGBT being used

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Speaker 5: to come up with scripts, but it really got me

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Speaker 5: thinking when I heard all of a sudden, actors might

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Speaker 5: face a similar kind of future where their physical selves

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Speaker 5: won't be even required on film sets. So clearly the Actors'

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Speaker 5: Union is against that. We've been hearing a lot about

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Speaker 5: AI and how it's going to shake up the film industry,

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Speaker 5: and it hasn't all been negative. There's been talks about

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Speaker 5: how it could be a positive and enhance visual effects

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Speaker 5: and you know, virtual reality all that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 5: What type of tech are we talking about here, Yeah, well,

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Speaker 5: a lot of it's not actually that new. People have

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Speaker 5: been using these kind of concepts for many, many years.

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Speaker 5: So you think about a stunt performer who's going to

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Speaker 5: do a really difficult stunt, they're obviously not going to

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Speaker 5: get the hero actor and put them in any kind

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Speaker 5: of danger. So these kind of practices have been in

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Speaker 5: place in Hollywood for quite a while. So while it's

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Speaker 5: never really been a threat before. With everything moving at

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Speaker 5: such a rapid pace, I just wanted someone who's on

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Speaker 5: the inside, who's working in these kind of films to

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Speaker 5: just break it down for me. So I reached out

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Speaker 5: to Tyson Donnelly, who's a visual effects artist.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so more and more, there's a lot of hidden

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Speaker 7: visual effects work.

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Speaker 5: He's worked on things like the recent Star Wars films

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Speaker 5: and live action aladdiner the Matrix.

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Speaker 7: The Matrix four was the last one, which was very

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Speaker 7: exciting personally as a v EFFX.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot of people are confused by the

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Speaker 5: term like AI and they don't really understand how that

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Speaker 5: might fit in visual effects world. Can you explain to

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Speaker 5: me in what ways you're using AI in visual effects?

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Speaker 7: So I think the most easiest example of how we

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Speaker 7: use it now ish would be for rotoscoping, which is

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Speaker 7: when you have to put someone on a sunny beach

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Speaker 7: instead of a car park lot. And then I think

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Speaker 7: the other one that people are more familiar with is

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Speaker 7: deep fakes, or replacing people's faces with either another actor

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Speaker 7: or a younger version of themselves.

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Speaker 5: So Tyson's talking about de aging and those kind of

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Speaker 5: techniques that you see in things like the latest Indiana

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Speaker 5: Jones film, where all of a sudden, Harrison Ford is

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Speaker 5: thirty forty years younger. So while it is all early

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Speaker 5: days for this, what we're hearing is that actors and

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Speaker 5: writers are concerned about how this might progress into the future.

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Speaker 2: Which is understandable. I mean, it's kind of reshaping the

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Speaker 2: industry in live time. Let's hone in on the actors specifically,

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Speaker 2: what kind of issues are they worried about in this

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Speaker 2: AI realm.

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Speaker 5: I think they're worried about a lot of things. But

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Speaker 5: I've thought, let's go straight to the source. So I

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Speaker 5: reached out to an actor, Rachel Nichols.

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Speaker 4: I'm an actress. I live in Los Angeles, and I

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Speaker 4: wanted to speak today about everything.

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Speaker 2: That's going on in the industry.

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Speaker 5: So Rachel's acted in a whole host of things like

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Speaker 5: Alias Criminal Minds Man in The High Castle Star Trek.

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Speaker 5: She's got quite an extensive list on IMDb, and she

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Speaker 5: says that she's really worried about the implication of AI

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Speaker 5: and deep fakes for both herself and other actors.

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Speaker 4: The idea that they could take my voice and put

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Speaker 4: it on my body and put it in.

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Speaker 3: A different project that I wasn't physically or mentally involved

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Speaker 3: in is very threatening.

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Speaker 4: It's also terrifying.

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Speaker 5: Not only are they facing a reality where they're residuals

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Speaker 5: from the work that they've previously done. Residuals remember like

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Speaker 5: royalties they're shrinking. They might end up in future productions

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Speaker 5: that they've never even consented to be and they've never

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Speaker 5: been on a film set, they haven't physically been involved

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Speaker 5: in these kind of productions, and they're not going to

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Speaker 5: see any kind of payment for those kind of works.

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Speaker 5: So it's almost like this horrible double squeeze where they're

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Speaker 5: losing out on stuff that they've done in the past

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Speaker 5: and they're not going to have any kind of payment

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Speaker 5: for anything in the future.

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Speaker 4: If a movie came out with me and Tom Cruise

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Speaker 4: and Julia Roberts and none of us actually worked on

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Speaker 4: the movie, I think I would lose my mind and

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Speaker 4: then I would go be a.

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Speaker 5: Librarian or something. People who are probably first to go

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Speaker 5: the background actors, extras, those kind of roles. And I

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Speaker 5: spoke to a producer about this, and she explained to me, well,

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Speaker 5: once you start to remove background actors, it's going to

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Speaker 5: have a ripple effect throughout the whole industry because you

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Speaker 5: then require fewer makeup people, fewer costumed people, fewer assistant directors.

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Speaker 5: Everybody will be affected by this.

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Speaker 2: I can understand why everyone across the board is concerned

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Speaker 2: about the emergence of AI. On the other side of

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Speaker 2: the things, what are we hearing from studios and producers.

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Speaker 5: Well, they're going to argue that they're also being hit

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Speaker 5: by financial losses, right. They will say that things like

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Speaker 5: the revenue they used to make from cable TV that's

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Speaker 5: been in decline for many, many years. The box officing

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Speaker 5: isn't what it used to be coming out of COVID.

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Speaker 5: You know, cinemas are still struggling to get people to

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Speaker 5: come back to theater. And so you've got people like

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Speaker 5: Bob Iger, who's the CEO of Disney. He said in

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Speaker 5: interviews that actors and writers are being completely unrealistic.

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Speaker 2: So with the speed of technology developing, particularly in the

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Speaker 2: film and entertainment industry, without getting too dramatic here, do

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Speaker 2: you think there's such a world that actors don't exist?

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Speaker 5: No, I don't think actors will become irrelevant, Like people

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Speaker 5: go to the movies for a human connection. Right. So

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Speaker 5: I actually put this to Rachel herself. Do you think

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Speaker 5: the AI generated performances will be able to evoke the

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Speaker 5: same levels of emotion?

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Speaker 4: Nope? Nope. I know, show me an AI of myself

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Speaker 4: where different ords are coming out of my mouth that

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Speaker 4: you need the tears, don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't buy it.

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Speaker 4: And then I also don't show me because I don't

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Speaker 4: want to know that it can be done because suck.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, I think we might be a while away

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Speaker 5: before an AI video is able to make us connect

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Speaker 5: and feel something the way that a human actor is

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Speaker 5: able to. But they've actually got a difficult task ahead

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Speaker 5: of them, the developers of these AI technologies, because as

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Speaker 5: you start to create a digital human in a film

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Speaker 5: or a TV show, as it starts to get better

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Speaker 5: and better and more realistic, you think, ah, this is

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Speaker 5: this is happening. We're on the right track. It actually

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Speaker 5: hits a point where it completely flips on itself and

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Speaker 5: it looks creepy. So I actually spoke to Tyson about

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Speaker 5: this and he kind of explained it really well. It's

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Speaker 5: actually called the uncanny valley where.

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Speaker 7: We're super good at recognizing faces. We'll get to a

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Speaker 7: point and we just know so it's not a real

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Speaker 7: person and we can just sense it.

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Speaker 5: A really good example of this actually is, you know,

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Speaker 5: cast your mind back to early two thousands, the first

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Speaker 5: Shrek film, So Princess Fiona, she actually looked too real

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Speaker 5: in the film, and children actually were freaked out by

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Speaker 5: this because you know, it was an animation, but it

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Speaker 5: was so close to human realism, and so after doing

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Speaker 5: market research, they went back and actually made her look

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Speaker 5: more cartoony so that she wouldn't scare the kids.

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Speaker 2: Joe, having spent so much time talking to experts in

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Speaker 2: the field, stakeholders, people who are innovating in AI but

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Speaker 2: also are in danger of being replaced by AI, what's

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Speaker 2: your take on where we're headed.

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Speaker 5: Honestly, I think it's very easy to say we need

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Speaker 5: to stop all of this because it's just getting too scary.

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Speaker 5: I think when I've spoken to you know, people from

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Speaker 5: lots of different industries, like scientists, people in health, other artists, musicians, like,

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Speaker 5: there are ways where we can harness the power of

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Speaker 5: what these AI tools can do, and it's amazing and

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Speaker 5: I'm sure we'll be able to create things that we

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Speaker 5: can't even imagine right now. But I think along the

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Speaker 5: way throughout this journey, it's about finding the right balance

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Speaker 5: so that we can we can start to use these

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Speaker 5: kind of tools, but it's not going to be the

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Speaker 5: expense of you know, people's jobs and livelihoods.

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Speaker 2: Joe, thanks for coming on the Daily Odds today. You're

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Speaker 2: never going to be replaced by AI. Wad Off as

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Speaker 2: special thank you, Sam, but when you are I'll be

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Speaker 2: the first to let you know.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for listening in to this episode of The Daily Ods.

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Speaker 8: We have loved reading your reviews on Spotify, so if

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Speaker 8: you liked this episode, you can go to your Spotify

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Speaker 8: app and it'll give you a little box under the

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Speaker 8: episode name, and there you can tell us how you

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Speaker 8: felt about the episode and any questions you might have.

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Speaker 3: Have a fabulous day and we'll see you tomorrow.