1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed that bronze medalists often seem happier 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 1: than silver medallists. It seems weird, right, but you also 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: sort of understand it. If you win bronze, you get 4 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 1: to go home as an Olympic medalist, but if you 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: win silver, you probably just end up thinking if only 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: I pushed a little bit harder. Maybe you've felt this yourself, 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: even if you're not an Olympic athlete. Maybe you've got 8 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: a B plus in school, which is a great mark, 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: but couldn't help thinking about how close you were to 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: an A. 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 2: That's regret, and it feels well bad. But Dan Pink 12 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 2: says it's necessary, and he's got a whole lot of 13 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 2: research to back it up. Dan is the best selling 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 2: author of Drive a Whole New Mind, When and Now, 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: The Power of Regret, How Looking Backwards Moves Us Forward. 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 2: Dan is one of my favorite authors, and his last 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,679 Speaker 2: appearance on How I Work was one of my favorite episodes, 18 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: so I'm super excited to have him back. We discuss 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: why having no regrets is not the superpower people think 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: it is, and how Dan changed his behavior based on 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 2: regrets in his own life, and how Dan's approach to 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: work and motivation has changed since he wrote Drive many 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: years ago. 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: My name is doctor Amantha Imber. I'm an organizational psychologist 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: and founder of behavioral science consultancy Invent Him, and this 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: is how I work a show about how to help 27 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 1: you do your best work. For the last couple of years, 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: Dan has immersed himself in the world of regret and 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: the power of this underrated emotion. So I wanted to 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: know how does regret inform his day to day decision making. 31 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 3: It's changed between today and a few yours ago. 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 4: Before I started doing the research, I mean, I was 33 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 4: someone who sort of thought about regret something to avoid, 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 4: but then when I couldn't avoid it, it really brought 35 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 4: me down, and so then I tried to avoid it 36 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 4: even more. Now I have a better understanding that regret 37 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 4: is a powerful, powerful teacher that regret if we treat 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 4: it right, not doing it the way I was doing it, 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 4: not ignoring it, not wallowing it, and it can clarify 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 4: what we value and instruct us on how to do better. 41 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,359 Speaker 1: And so, what are some of the routines, whether they 42 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: be things that you might do daily or even annually 43 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: to as the result of investigating regrets so. 44 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 4: One of the things that I learned was something and 45 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,800 Speaker 4: this is new to me, that doesn't mean that it's new. 46 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 4: Is something called self compassion, which I don't know whether 47 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 4: you've talked about that on your show before. When we 48 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 4: make mistakes, we tend to be brutal on ourselves. When 49 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 4: you think about our self talk, that is the way 50 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 4: we talk to ourselves. 51 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: It is cruel. 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 4: I mean, if I were to broadcast my self talk, 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 4: if I were to let you listen in on it, 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 4: you would think I was a lunatic. If if I 55 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 4: were to use this the way that I talk to 56 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 4: myself in a workplace, I would be sacked. And so 57 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 4: what we should do is but that's not useful. There's 58 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 4: a lot of research showing that self esteem is overrated 59 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 4: and self criticism is overrated. What's woefully underrated is something 60 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 4: called self compassion. And with self compassion, we should look 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 4: at our mistakes and our screw ups and treat ourselves 62 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 4: with kindness rather than contempt. We should recognize that these 63 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 4: mistakes are part of the human condition, that everybody has them, 64 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 4: and we should also recognize that our mistakes are a 65 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 4: moment in our lives, not the full definition of our lives. 66 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 4: So that's been really helpful for me to actually treat 67 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: myself with greater compassion. 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: And so how do you specifically do that? Because there 69 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: are a few strategies in your book, The Power of Regret, 70 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: for I guess giving yourself more self compassion. But what 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: do you specifically do? 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 4: So I have some regrets, and I've had some regrets 73 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 4: about kindness and the kindness regrets that I have are 74 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 4: not regrets about having been a bully, having really affirmatively 75 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 4: mistreated people. I don't think I've ever done that, but 76 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 4: I have regrets about, in a weird way, about inaction, 77 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 4: in kindness, in actions. So when I was in school, 78 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 4: when I was in university, when I was a young professional, 79 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 4: there are many situations where people were being excluded, they 80 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 4: weren't being treated fairly, they weren't being treated right. I 81 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 4: wasn't doing the affirmative excluding, but I saw it going 82 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 4: on and I knew it was wrong, and I didn't 83 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 4: do a damn thing, and that bugs me to this day. 84 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 4: Now what do I do with that? So, first of all, 85 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 4: one of the most important things, and this gets a 86 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 4: specific question, is ask yourself a question, do you think 87 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 4: you're the only person who has experienced that regret or 88 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 4: that mistake. And the answer, having collected regrets from all 89 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 4: over the world over the last couple of years, is 90 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 4: absolutely not. And so when I look at my mistakes 91 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 4: and I say say to myself, you know what, You're 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 4: not that special. There are a lot of people who 93 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,720 Speaker 4: have those kinds of mistakes. That's a way to minimize 94 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 4: their pain and then also to begin a process of 95 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: making sense of them. And so again I think that 96 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 4: the specific practice would be, are you the only person 97 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: in the world who's made that mistake or had that regret? 98 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 4: And the answer in ninety nine times out of one 99 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 4: hundred is no freaking way. 100 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: I love that, And I do remember when you actually 101 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: write about that in the book around Regrets, around Kindness, 102 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: and you write, I believe that you now go about 103 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,279 Speaker 1: making kindness. I have priority, and I was curious as 104 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: to how you're doing that. 105 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 4: One of the things that the way this has been 106 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 4: useful to me is that if something is bugging you 107 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 4: for ten years or twenty years, that's a message that's 108 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: telling you something you know, and so what it's telling me, 109 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 4: because because I'm sure there are many mistakes that I've 110 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 4: made many screw ups I've had that I don't even 111 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 4: remember anymore. Not only do they not bother me, but 112 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 4: I barely have any recollection of them. So the ones 113 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: that we recollect and that stick with us are very 114 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: strong signals, and there's strong signals about what we value. 115 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 4: And the fact that this was such a strong signal 116 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 4: finally alerted me, convinced me that kindness was something that 117 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 4: I value, and I started. 118 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: Thinking about that. 119 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 4: I said, yeah, actually, the people I admire are often 120 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 4: very kind. I admire that virtue in people, and so 121 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 4: so regret in my case clarified what I valued. But 122 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 4: it also instructed me about how to do things better. 123 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 4: And I'll tell you what. Let me let me give 124 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 4: you a specific example of this. And if my wife 125 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 4: were here, she could she could testify to the truth 126 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: of this. So again, my regrets about kindness were regrets 127 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 4: about inaction, and they regrets largely about exclusion and people 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 4: being left out. That was going on in front of 129 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 4: my eyes, and I didn't do anything about. So if 130 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 4: you were to see me a man at a social gathering, 131 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 4: and many social gatherings back in the days when we 132 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 4: had social gatherings, they are reappearing here in the United 133 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 4: States of America. And what you often see at social gatherings, 134 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 4: they're sometimes hard for people to navigate. And what you 135 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 4: also see are would you often sometimes see are like 136 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 4: clumps of people talking and then maybe one or two 137 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 4: or three or four or five individuals who are kind 138 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 4: of marooned at a loss right, And my wife will 139 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 4: testify to this. I now always like go over to 140 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: that person and bring them into the scrum that I'm in. 141 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 4: I always will widen the circle to invite other people in. 142 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 4: And I really think, now again, is that going to 143 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 4: qualify me for sainhood? 144 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 3: No? All right? Do I have a lot more work 145 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: to do on kindness. 146 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 4: Yes, but I would not be doing that had I 147 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,679 Speaker 4: not really faced up to my regrets about kindness, thought 148 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: about them, you know, treated myself with some compassion, tried 149 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 4: to make sense of those regrets and try to instruct 150 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: myself about what to do next time. 151 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: That sounds that sounds very beautiful. I want to be 152 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: at your events, Dan, because I feel like I'm off 153 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: in that person standing on the ass. What what have 154 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: you done on a more macro scale with with your life? 155 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: Like we've sort of talked about some of those, you know, 156 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: concrete day to day things, and you know, I guess 157 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: that is a macro thing, identifying the value of kindness 158 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: being important. But are they, you know, perhaps like annual 159 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: rhythms or rituals that you've got into, you know, now 160 00:08:58,840 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: understanding the power of. 161 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: Grant, Well, there are a few things. 162 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 4: There are a lot of So one thing that I 163 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: that I did this past December at the end of 164 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 4: the year is that I listed my top three regrets 165 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 4: from the year, so as kind of like a preemptive 166 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 4: New Year's resolution, that is, instead of starting with my 167 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 4: New Year's resolutions, I said, what are my old year's regrets? 168 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 4: And so took a small but I limited to three. 169 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 4: I'm a big believer in the power of three. If 170 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 4: I said list ten regrets, maybe you know, I don't 171 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 4: want to. I don't want to try to manufacture these regrets. 172 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 4: So I said, what are the three What are the 173 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 4: three regrets that I that I have for this year 174 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 4: from this previous year and what and I and I 175 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 4: just thought those through and I listed them. I'm a 176 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 4: big believer in getting stuff out of your head into 177 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 4: a system, whether it's just simply writing it down or 178 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 4: typing it into a document, or just you know, memorializing 179 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 4: it somewhere and and so I think that practice at 180 00:09:57,960 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 4: the end of the year of saying what are the 181 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 4: three big regrets of the year can be a catalyst 182 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 4: for what to do about them. And if you go 183 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 4: through this process that I'm suggesting you list a regret, 184 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 4: you treat yourself with kindness rather than contempt. By disclosing it, 185 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 4: you're beginning to make sense of it, and then you 186 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 4: try to extract a lesson from it. 187 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 3: Then I think that's super helpful. 188 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: I love the idea in your book about starting a 189 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: regret circle. Can you talk about that and is that 190 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: something you've thought about doing yourself? 191 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 3: I definitely have. 192 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 4: I haven't done that one yet, but it is a very. 193 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 3: Simple exercise where you. 194 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 4: Get maybe four or five people and each of everybody 195 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 4: shares you. So you start out, one person shares a regret, 196 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: that person talks about what lesson he or she has 197 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 4: learned from it, and then you go around and the 198 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: other people try to give them advice and guidance on 199 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 4: what to do next. Because again, one of the other 200 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 4: things that we see from that regret teaches us is 201 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 4: that there are other used to convey this. Other sources 202 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 4: for this as well is that we tend to be 203 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: much better at solving other people's problems than our own. 204 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 4: So it's another way to enlist the crowd to help 205 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 4: resolve some of your own problems, which. 206 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: I guess in a way taps into the idea you 207 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: write about using self distancing strategies like exactly, yeah, like 208 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: asking yourself, what would your best friend do in this situation? 209 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: A self distancing strategy is something that you use. Are 210 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: there examples where you've used those in your own life? 211 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 3: Oh? My god, yes, on so many different occasions. 212 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 4: So you mentioned the decision making tool of what would 213 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 4: you tell your best friend to do? 214 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: I use that all the time. I use that all 215 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: the time. 216 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 4: And you know, because so I'll give you I'll give 217 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 4: you a very specific for instance. So, I have been 218 00:11:51,280 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 4: contemplating taking a sabbatical because I am slightly burnt out 219 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 4: and you know, sort of contemplating you know, the next 220 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 4: couple decades in my life. But I'm a little bit 221 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 4: skittish about taking a sabbatical because I feel like it 222 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 4: might I might not accomplish anything. I might be spinning 223 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 4: my wheels. It might be indulgent, it might not be productive, 224 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 4: And as I contemplated it, I. 225 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 3: Asked that very question. I say, what would you tell 226 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 3: your best friend to do? 227 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: And if I would say take the sabbatical, like, I 228 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 4: don't even have to think about it when I do 229 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 4: that kind of when I do that kind of self distancing. 230 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 3: So I use that a lot. 231 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 4: Another self distancing technique is is talking to yourself in 232 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 4: the third person. I use that a lot for exercise 233 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 4: and sports. So when I'm running long distances, I will 234 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 4: it's embarrassing, but I will like yell at my not 235 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 4: yell at myself, but sort of exhort myself using my 236 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 4: first name. So yeah, I use that all the I 237 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 4: use that all the time. I'm telling you the thing 238 00:12:58,360 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 4: what would I tell my best. 239 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 3: Friend to do? Is the best decision making tool there is. 240 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've absolutely used that one before and it is 241 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: so helpful. I want to talk about writing. One of 242 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: the things that you do so well is you tell stories. 243 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: And you're so great at making science and data not 244 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: just understandable but memorable. And I would love to know 245 00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: what's your process for finding those stories and really in 246 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: the power of regret. They're all real life stories that 247 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: illustrate the points. 248 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: Well on this one. 249 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 4: I mean, for this book, I had, you know, a 250 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 4: pretty distinct approach in that one of the things that 251 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 4: to write that give me, let me, let me take 252 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 4: two steps back for listeners who won't know this. So 253 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 4: so for this book The Power of Regret, I relied 254 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 4: on three legs of a research stool. The first leg 255 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 4: was looking at some existing science on this emotion of regret, 256 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 4: in particularly so psychology, developmental psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, to 257 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 4: try to say what is science, existing science tell us 258 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 4: about this emotion. The second leg was something that I 259 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 4: called the American Regret Project, which was a piece of 260 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 4: quantitative research, numbers based research, where I did a very 261 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 4: large public opinion survey of the US population, the largest 262 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 4: survey of US attitudes about regret ever conducted, and tried 263 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 4: to find some insights there. And then the third and 264 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 4: this is going to get to your question, is I 265 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: also set up something called the World Regret Survey, which 266 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 4: was a giant collection tool where I invited people from 267 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 4: around the world to submit a regret and to my astonishment, 268 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 4: we got fifteen thousand, you know, very very quickly, and 269 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 4: we're now over nineteen thousand regrets from people in one 270 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 4: hundred and five one hundred and nine countries right now. 271 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 3: And on that what I did well on that one, 272 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 3: I read through. 273 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: At least the first fifteen thousand regrets and started separating 274 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 4: out the ones that I found super compelling. What's more 275 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 4: is that I gave people who filled out those survey 276 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 4: the option of including their email. It was anonymous, but 277 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: they could include their email address if they wanted to 278 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 4: have a follow up interview, and so and so I 279 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 4: read through the regrets, I found certain ones that were compelling. 280 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 4: If there were ones that were compelling and the person 281 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: was willing to talk to me, I would reach out 282 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 4: to them by email and do interviews. So I did 283 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 4: hundreds of interviews to try to find the very best, 284 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 4: most compelling stories. 285 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: And how do you know when a story is going 286 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: to be effective enough to get your point across? 287 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 4: It's a good question. I don't know if you know, 288 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 4: and I don't have a way to do that. I mean, 289 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 4: some of it is a some of it is a 290 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 4: gut some of it is a gut instinct. What I 291 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 4: tend to do is I tend to tell the story 292 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 4: to somebody else and see whether they lean in or 293 00:15:58,880 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 4: their eyes glazed over. 294 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: That's, to me sometimes a good test. 295 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 4: And also the other thing about it is that the stories. 296 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: You use are not equally weighted. 297 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 4: That is, sometimes a story can be brilliant for three sentences, 298 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, and it doesn't deserve much 299 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 4: more of that. Sometimes the story needs three pages. And 300 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 4: so I think that knowing how much weight the story 301 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 4: deserves is really important as well. And one of the 302 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 4: things that I think that less experienced writers do is 303 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 4: that they don't wait the stories properly. That is, they think, well, 304 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 4: I found out all this information about this person, therefore 305 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: I need to report it. And that's often that's often 306 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 4: a mistake, and knowing like, oh my gosh, I've done 307 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 4: three interviews with this person and it's taken me three 308 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 4: and a half hours of my life. 309 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 3: But you know what, I just need a sentence. 310 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 4: You got to be good with that, and that's really important. 311 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 3: The same thing is true with research. 312 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 4: You have to be able to explain the research thoroughly enough, 313 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 4: but in a way that serves the readers rather than 314 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:15,719 Speaker 4: validates your decisions to do the research. 315 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 3: So let me be specific there. So there's in the 316 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 3: book I wrote about. 317 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 4: I looked at some of the research on when children 318 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 4: developed the capacity for regret, so a lot of developmental psychology, 319 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,360 Speaker 4: lots and lots of experiments of giving say, five year 320 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 4: old scenarios and then seven year old scenarios and then 321 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 4: nine year old scenarios and seeing whether they comprehend the 322 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 4: idea of regret. 323 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: There I probably read. 324 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 4: I probably spent a month reading these papers and looking 325 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 4: at some textbooks and things. Probably ended up reading I 326 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 4: don't know, fifty to fifty five studies on this question. 327 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 4: And when I got to writing it, I realized I 328 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 4: could explain it all in like a paragraph. 329 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: Wow, that must take a lot of restraint. 330 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 3: It does, believe me, it does. But here's the thing. 331 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: Here's the way I look at it. 332 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 4: It's like the only thing worse than saying, oh crap, 333 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 4: I just took a month of work and only got. 334 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 3: A paragraph out of it. I don't like that. Believe me. 335 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 4: That's not a happy day in the Pink householder, in 336 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 4: the in Pinking World headquarters here, that is not a 337 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 4: happy day. However, what is an even worse day is 338 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 4: torturing readers, is giving readers something that they don't need 339 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 4: that really bugs that bugs me even more so. It's 340 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 4: a question of, as as is often the case in 341 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 4: life in general, in my life in particular, which variety 342 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 4: and intensity of discontent do you prefer? 343 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: And how do you know that you are going to 344 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,199 Speaker 1: be torturing readers? I guess that's the key question, Like 345 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: how do you know that they don't want to hold 346 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: chapter around kids and regrets? 347 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: I have a that I think is easier because if 348 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 4: it bores me, you know, it's like, Okay, I don't 349 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 4: want to read this. I think that's I mean, I 350 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 4: think that's a lot. I think that's a lot easier. 351 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 4: And again, you know what you want to do is 352 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 4: you want to my I mean, this is my own bias, 353 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 4: but I think I always I think that most nonfiction books, 354 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 4: and I've gotten in trouble for saying this, but I 355 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 4: think that most nonfiction books are too long. I think 356 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 4: that most books would be many of many books would 357 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: be twice as good if they were half as long, 358 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 4: because I think that they the authors aren't concise enough, 359 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 4: there's too much fluff in them, and that many of 360 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 4: these books probably don't deserve to be full fledged books, 361 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 4: and so I try to be pretty relentless about what 362 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 4: I put in there and what and more important, what 363 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 4: I leave out the high I mean, my favorite compliment 364 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 4: in this book was I was in the UK two 365 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 4: weeks ago and I did an interview, a radio interview, 366 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 4: and the producer said, you know, this book is this 367 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 4: book is really good, like there's no fluff, and I'm like, yeah, exactly, 368 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 4: there's no fluff. 369 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: Wholeheartedly agree with that and just pacing it moves quickly. 370 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: I completely agree with what you're saying with nonfiction books. 371 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: I loved the story of Cheryl and her friendship with Jen, 372 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: or rather her lost friendship with Jen. How did you 373 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: decide that that was going to be one of the 374 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: key stories in the book that you took throughout it? 375 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 4: Partly because I found it a very relatable story for myself, 376 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 4: because I could see myself in the story. So as 377 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 4: as narcissistic as that might sound, that was part of it. 378 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 3: And the other part of it was is that. 379 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 4: The the it was basically the color and emotion with 380 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,439 Speaker 4: which Cheryl described things and the fact that she was 381 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 4: so racked by this. 382 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 3: I found that I found that pretty compelling. 383 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 4: What's more is that this was quite representative of a 384 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 4: lot of regrets. So when when when you know there 385 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 4: there are plenty of regrets, very very much like Cheryl, 386 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 4: So I felt like this was I could see myself 387 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 4: in it, and I knew that it was representing other 388 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 4: people as well. 389 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: I could definitely relate to that very relatable story. We 390 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: will be back with Dan soon hearing about the online 391 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: research tools that he swears by. And if you're looking 392 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: for more tips to improve the way you work, I 393 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 1: write a short fortnightly newsletter that contains three cool things 394 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: that I've discovered that helped me work better, which range 395 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: from interesting research findings three to gadgets and software that 396 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 1: I'm loving. You can sign up for that at Howiwork 397 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: dot co. That's how I Work dot co. Now. Research 398 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: is a huge part of your process, and as you mentioned, 399 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: the research process for the Power of Regret was a 400 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: bit different because you conducted your own very large scale research. 401 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: But still there's a whole lot of academic research backing 402 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 1: up the points that you're making. And i'd love to know, 403 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: once you've decided on the topic that your next book 404 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: is going to be about, what does that research process. 405 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: Look like, Yeah, it's semi systematic in that. So before 406 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 4: I write a book, I will write a book proposal, 407 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: And in writing a book proposal, I will look in 408 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 4: in a cursory way at the key pieces of academic reaseo, 409 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 4: or at least for this one, the key pieces of 410 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 4: academic research, just to get sort of the skeleton, just 411 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 4: to get the broad ideas and so and so I 412 00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 4: have a sense of what the broad contours are, but 413 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 4: at a very broad level of what the what the 414 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 4: research says. So then when I start the real research, 415 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 4: I'll go back and I'll read those papers again more 416 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 4: important as I will go to the footnotes to see 417 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 4: what's being cited a lot pull those papers, read those, 418 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 4: go to their footnotes, read those, and eventually I'll it'll 419 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 4: start to get a little recursive that I'll start kind 420 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 4: of chasing my tail, and I say, okay, like in 421 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 4: this one area, I've sort of sort of figured out 422 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 4: the main things to read in what they in, what 423 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 4: they say, and then then I'll do that for other 424 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 4: kinds of topics and subtopics. And then at a certain 425 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 4: point I will start trying to see the structure of 426 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: the book. And you know, I'll come into it with 427 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 4: a vague sense of what the structure is. 428 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 3: It's usually wrong, that's okay. 429 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 4: I'll come in and then then I often will start 430 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 4: writing a piece of it. And for me, when I 431 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: start writing it, I realize I understand the structure better. 432 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 4: I realize what's working with the structure and what's not 433 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 4: working with the structure. I also realize what more research 434 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 4: I need to do, And so I'll sort of begin 435 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 4: the process again, except that there'll be less research to do, 436 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 4: and I'll go back to writing. And so that's it's 437 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: sort of like these recursive, these recursive loops between clining 438 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 4: into the research, doing some writing, and figuring it out, 439 00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 4: using that to do a little more research doing that 440 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 4: than going back and and so the balance between research 441 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 4: and writing starts to shift from mostly research and little 442 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 4: writing to a balance to at a certain point mostly 443 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 4: writing in very little more research. 444 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: Are there key tools, like online tools, for example, that 445 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: you use to do your research. 446 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 4: I'm a big fan, believe it or not, of Google scholar, 447 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 4: which is a database that Google has that is that 448 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 4: is very good at finding all kinds of all kinds 449 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 4: of academic papers. It is a very it's it's a 450 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 4: free tool, it's a simple tool, and it works extraordinarily. 451 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 4: It works extraordinarily. 452 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,439 Speaker 1: Well, are there any other pieces of software that you 453 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: find quite useful for for your work and organizing your 454 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,359 Speaker 1: thinking or productivity in general? 455 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: Sure? I use, though there are a bunch of different things. 456 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 4: So I Well, when you say software, I mean I 457 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 4: actually still lie more on paper than a lot of people. 458 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 4: I for the research that I care about, I print 459 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 4: out every paper that I want to read. I read 460 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 4: every everything on paper, all the all the things on paper, 461 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 4: and then I actually put them in paper files as well. 462 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 4: So it's bad environmentally, it's good cognitively at least for me. 463 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 4: And I put all of and so I have these 464 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 4: massive kind of according files organized by either chapter or 465 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,479 Speaker 4: parts of chapter and so forth, that are stuffed with paper. 466 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 4: So I do it so so I use again, I 467 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 4: use a lot of paper. In organizing the regrets from 468 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 4: this these thousands of regrets from the World Regrets Server, 469 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 4: I printed out an enormous number of them, and when 470 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 4: I was thinking about categorizing them, my first move and 471 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,239 Speaker 4: categorizing them was laying them out on a table in 472 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 4: my office and just stacking them up and restacking them 473 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 4: and seeing what categories made sense to me. So a 474 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 4: lot of it is very for me, is very physical 475 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 4: and analog. Now that set, there are few tools. 476 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 3: That I that I really like. I am a maybe 477 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: it's a very simple tool. 478 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 4: But you know, Dropbox, if if if terrorists hit the 479 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 4: drop box servers, I would be out of work for. 480 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 3: The rest of my life. 481 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 4: I organize a lot on Dropbox, and so that's really 482 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 4: important to me. And then another one is less well 483 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 4: known that I use for trying to organize ideas is 484 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 4: a piece of software called it's very inexpensive. I think 485 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 4: it's like twenty bucks US. It's called it's called Scalpel 486 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 4: s C A P p l E. It is a 487 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 4: it's kind of a mind mapping software. But it's the 488 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 4: best mind mapping software that I have. It's it's by 489 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 4: an independent developer, it's not by one of the big 490 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 4: tech companies. And so I use Scalpel on every chapter 491 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 4: in this latest book. 492 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: Wow, I've never heard of that software. I'm going to 493 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: go look that up. 494 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's it's very good. 495 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 4: It's it's a it's a it's a it's a traditional 496 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 4: it's it's mind mapping software, which there are plenty of, 497 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 4: plenty of types of mind mapping software. In my view, 498 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 4: this one seems the most intuitive, the most user friendly, 499 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 4: and actually has the fewest bells and whistles on it. 500 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 4: A lot of the mind mapping software has so many 501 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 4: extra features that you don't need that it ends up 502 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 4: being confusing. This is very very simple, very elegant, uh, 503 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 4: very elegant program. 504 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: Now, a lot of the power of regret is about 505 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: how we can use past mistakes to reorient actions or 506 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: even our goals in the present. And you're like, you're 507 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: obviously very well known for writing about motivation and goals 508 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: when you wrote Drive, And I was wondering for you, like, 509 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: has the way that you set goals or think about 510 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: motivation in your own life changed much since you wrote Drive? 511 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a little bit. I mean what I 512 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 3: mean maybe maybe even maybe even quite a bit. 513 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 4: I mean, help me understand I think why I became 514 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 4: self employed twenty plus years ago. You know, I hadn't 515 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 4: written about you know, I didn't know the research on 516 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 4: autonomy then. But once I understood it as like, oh 517 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 4: that makes sense about why I did what I did, 518 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 4: So it helped inform my understanding of myself, which is 519 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 4: often somewhat useful. One thing that it did is on 520 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 4: the on the principle of mastery. It it helped me 521 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 4: understand the importance of daily progress. So I'm pretty obsessive about, 522 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 4: you know, recording and charting my daily progress. So so 523 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: you know, at the end of every day, I list 524 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 4: what I got done that day, or at least three 525 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 4: three big things I got done that day. 526 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: I for my. 527 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 4: Uh for even for exercise and running, I always log 528 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 4: the the miles that I run. I don't do it 529 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 4: in kilometers I should, but I do it in mile 530 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 4: log the miles that I run. And so that's that's changed. 531 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 4: How how I do a lot of stuff day to 532 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 4: day and on purpose, I do ask myself a lot, 533 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 4: try to ask myself as many times as possible, like 534 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,719 Speaker 4: why I'm doing something, even if I'm in the weeds 535 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 4: of writing a book, even the weeds of writing a chapter. 536 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 4: You know, instead of saying to myself, Okay, how do 537 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 4: I finish this chapter? You know, how how do I 538 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 4: get this to work? I think I take a step 539 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 4: back and say, Okay, why am I writing this chapter? 540 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 4: Why is this advanced the story? Why is this good 541 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 4: for readers? 542 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 3: So I do? I guess I do not. I think 543 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: about employee a lot of that stuff day to day 544 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: on my own. 545 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: What was your answer to that question when you were 546 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: writing The Power of Regret? Was there a macro reason 547 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: or motivating factor? 548 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, yeah, No, on that there was. 549 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 4: There was definitely a macro reason there, And actually figuring 550 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 4: out that macro reason was really important to me because 551 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 4: I was kind of spinning my wheels for a while 552 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 4: until I figured that out. And for me, what I 553 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 4: wanted to do was the macro reason was to try 554 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 4: to reclaim this emotion because I just think we've so 555 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 4: fundamentally misunderstood the emotion of regret. We think that it 556 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 4: is dangerous when in fact it is actually useful. We 557 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 4: think that it makes us weak, when in fact it 558 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: can make us strong. And so I wanted to reclaim 559 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 4: this emotion because I'm convinced it's our most transformative emotion 560 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 4: and that if people know how to deal with it, 561 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 4: they're going to lead better lives. So on this one, 562 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 4: there was there was a little bit more perhaps maybe 563 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 4: than some of the other ones that are a little 564 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: bit more of a missionary zeal. 565 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 3: On this one than on the others. 566 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: What gave you the idea to write about regret? Because, 567 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: as I said, it doesn't seem like an obvious thing 568 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: to do. 569 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 4: Because I was, you know, because I was, I was 570 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 4: dealing with the regrets of my own and I was 571 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 4: also at a stage in my life where I was 572 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 4: pondering these things. 573 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: So you know, I don't know. 574 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 4: If I would have I mean, I've been writing books 575 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 4: for twenty years, to my amazement, and I don't think 576 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 4: I would have written this book in my thirties. 577 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 3: I don't think I had. I don't think I had 578 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 3: enough mileage on me. 579 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 4: But in my fifties it felt kind of inevitable because 580 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 4: I was looking backward at decisions i'd made or hadn't made, 581 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 4: and some of them bothered me, and I said, Okay, 582 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: how can I use this to live the rest of 583 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: my life? And you know, one of the things that 584 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 4: I've discovered going back to self compassion is that, you know, well, 585 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 4: all of us are kind of special in our own way. 586 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 4: I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings. We're actually not 587 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 4: that special. So if I'm reckoning with regrets, if I'm 588 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 4: wrestling with regrets, then chances are other people are too, 589 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 4: and that suggests that there's a wider appeal for this 590 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 4: topic than might meet the eye. 591 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 1: And like, how do you decide that this is like 592 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: this warrants you know, spending the next three or so 593 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: years of your life on Like how did you know 594 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: it was that important? Because that's that's essentially what we're 595 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: talking about. If not longly when it comes to writing 596 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: a book, oh. 597 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 3: It's even longer. 598 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 4: I mean I got a call from a newspaper reporter 599 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 4: last week about a book I wrote twenty years ago, 600 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 4: you know. 601 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 3: So this is one reason why. 602 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 4: I write book proposals before agreeing to write a book. 603 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 4: And for me, a book proposal is usually twenty five 604 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 4: or thirty pages long, and it lays out what the 605 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 4: book is, who I think is going to buy it, 606 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 4: why it's different from anything else. And that action does 607 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 4: two things. First, it forces me to say, Okay, do 608 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 4: I actually want to spend time with this idea? And 609 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 4: there are a lot of ideas that you don't want 610 00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 4: to spend that much time with and so and then 611 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 4: also it allows you to see whether there's a there 612 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 4: there and because if you can't sustain it, very easily 613 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 4: in thirty five pages. You're not going to be able 614 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 4: to sustain it very easily in two hundred and seventy 615 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 4: five pages. And so to me, that book proposal is 616 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 4: a really great test. 617 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 3: And I have had situations where. 618 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 4: I once years ago, was between books, figuring out what 619 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 4: to do next, and I my wife and I had 620 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 4: we had little kids at the time, and I said, okay, guys, 621 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 4: I got to like write a proposal for a new book. 622 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 4: I'm not getting any traction on this thing. And I 623 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 4: sent them away to my in law's house and I said, okay, 624 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 4: give me, guys, give me two weeks, and I can 625 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 4: you know that way I can just I got to 626 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 4: get this thing done and I don't want to torture you, 627 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 4: and you guys can have fun without me. 628 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 3: And so I buckled down. 629 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,960 Speaker 4: And I think after like eight or nine days, I 630 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 4: called my wife and I said, I got some good 631 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 4: news and some bad news. 632 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 3: The good news is that you can come home now. 633 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 4: The bad news is because in writing this proposal, I 634 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 4: realized this is not a book. 635 00:33:58,400 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 3: This does not hold together as a book. 636 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 4: And believe me, a man, I'd much rather find it 637 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 4: out then than after I'd contracted to write a book 638 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 4: and how to disappoint my editors and deal with that stuff. 639 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: Yes, definitely, And I remember when I last had you 640 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: on how I work. We did go into quite a 641 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: bit of depth around writing a book proposal. So for 642 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: anyone that is listening and is like, what is the 643 00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: book proposal? I will link to that past interview in 644 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: the show notes. Now I remember, like, right at the 645 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: end of the book, you also write about another regret 646 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: that you have, and you say that you regret not 647 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 1: forging enough close connections with friends and mentors and colleagues, 648 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: and now you try hard to reach out. And I 649 00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: was wondering, what does that look like? What practically do 650 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,240 Speaker 1: you find yourself doing now to act on that regret. 651 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 4: Well, one thing is that if I find myself at 652 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 4: a juncture saying, oh, I'm thinking about person A, should 653 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 4: I reach out? 654 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 3: Being at that juncture answers the question for me. 655 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 4: So I've done a much better job about sending someone 656 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 4: a text message saying, hey, do you have fifty minutes 657 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 4: to talk this weekend? Nothing wrong, no agenda, I just 658 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 4: want to see. 659 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: How you're doing. Like I would never do that before, 660 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 3: and now I do that. 661 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 4: What else do you do on the reaching out I'm 662 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 4: trying on this one is that I'm I'm a little 663 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 4: bit more likely to initiate a social gathering than I 664 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 4: have been in the past. Usually I never initiated any 665 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 4: social gatherings and actually often try to avoid them and 666 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 4: so so so I'm getting a little bit better about 667 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 4: trying to initiate those. 668 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: Now, Dan, four people that want to consume more of 669 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: your work and certainly the Power of Regret. What's the 670 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: best way for people to do that? 671 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,239 Speaker 4: I just go to my website, which is danpinkdanpi nk 672 00:35:59,360 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 4: dot com. 673 00:35:59,800 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 3: Dan. 674 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: Amazing, Dan, thank you for writing yet another just amazing 675 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 1: book that has certainly changed my life. 676 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 3: So thank you. Thanks for doing what you do. 677 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 4: Thanks for having me back on the podcast. Maybe I'll 678 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 4: write another one so I can come back again in. 679 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 3: A few years. 680 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, please do don't take that sabbatical, No do it 681 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: sounds like that's quick for you to do. 682 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:22,240 Speaker 3: Well. 683 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 684 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:23,439 Speaker 4: Dan. 685 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: There were so many things that I took out of 686 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: this chat with Dan, and also his new book, The 687 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: Power of Regrets, which I loved. I really was into 688 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: the idea about Dan's annual reflection on his top three 689 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 1: regrets from the past year to inform the year ahead. 690 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,839 Speaker 1: It's definitely one of the many things that I plan 691 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: to try implementing in my year ahead. 692 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 3: Now, if you're. 693 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: Loving How I Work, maybe you might want to recommend 694 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: it to other people that you think would also benefit. 695 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 2: You can simply hit the share. 696 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: Icon wherever you're listening to this podcast and share it 697 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: with someone else that you think would like it. How 698 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 1: I Work is produced by Inventing with production support from 699 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: Dead Set Studios. The producer for this episode was Liam Riordan, 700 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: and thank you to Martin Nimba who does the audio 701 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: mix for every episode and makes everything sounds so much 702 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,399 Speaker 1: better than it would have otherwise. See you next time.