1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: It's not every day that we have a former vice 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: president at the Walt Disney Company on the Happy Families Podcast. Today, though, 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: is the day where that's happening. Scott Novus is a 4 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,119 Speaker 1: video game industry veteran, the founder of Game Truck, the 5 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: largest mobile video game party company in the United States, 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: and a dad of three. He's worked with Disney, He's 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: created best selling games, He's authored books, and I could 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: go on and on about Scott Novos's pedigree. Today's a 9 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: podcast you do not want to miss if you have 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: children who game, which is pretty much everyone. Welcome to 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, Real parenting solutions every day on 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: Australia's most downloaded paring podcast. My name is doctor Justin 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 1: Coulson and I am so excited about my conversation Scott Novis. 14 00:00:51,520 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for your time. 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, thank you for having me here, Justin. 16 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: Right now, I reckon there's about fourteen and a half 18 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: fifteen million parents who really hate you because they can't 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: get their kids off the games that you've invented. I'm 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: obviously stirring a little bit here, but this is an area. 21 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: Ninety two percent of Australian parents are worried about the 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: extent which their children are on screens, whether it's social 23 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: media or gaming. And while I'm on this provocative bent, 24 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: there's a guy called William Sue. He's a former game developer, 25 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,960 Speaker 1: founder of Storm eight. He knows about this as well. 26 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: He's launched more than fifty mobile games collectively. They've been 27 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: downloaded more than a billion times. They've generated billions of 28 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: dollars in sales. And I have a quote here from 29 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: a New York Times essay where he says this, I'm 30 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: very familiar with game addiction, as that's what I thought 31 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: about every day for more than a decade. In brackets, 32 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: he says, we sold the company in twenty twenty hed 33 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: I hired product managers and engineers to track everything players 34 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: did and analyze their behavior. Using the data we collected, 35 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: we experimented with every feature of our games to see 36 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: which versions allowed us to extract the most time and 37 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: money from our players. For us, game addiction was by design. 38 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: It meant success for our business. That's the ultimate goal, 39 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: he says. This is the compelling statement that really grabs me. 40 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: That's the ultimate goal. To build habit forming games that 41 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: have players coming back every day. In other words, it 42 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: takes away the decision making. We wanted people to reach 43 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: for their phones first thing in the morning and jump 44 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: right into our games just as they check their social 45 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: media and emails. And as I'm reading that. You're not 46 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: in your head. And this is not a personal attack 47 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: on you. It is a question around the game industry 48 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: generally and the impact that it has on families. Now 49 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: you talk to parents about how they can navigate this 50 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: with their kids, it's almost like you've done a one 51 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 1: eighty I guess in some ways. Talk to me about this, 52 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,119 Speaker 1: the complexity around this, and how kids can how families 53 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: can have video game time but without the fighting. 54 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: If it's okay, justin, I want to expand on what 55 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: you're talking about because that just confirms everything that I know. 56 00:02:57,639 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 2: So I appreciate it. I'm going to go back and 57 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 2: track down that article on add it to my portfolio. 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 2: I have studied game addiction for a long time, not 59 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 2: just recently. Addiction is a complicated topic because you have 60 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: chemical dependency. I learned this from doctor Mark Gulston about 61 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: what is addiction, and it turns out there's a psychological 62 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: condition that people get into that is most easily described 63 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: as despair. Like literally think of the word despair to unpair. 64 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: It is painful to break all of your relationships. And 65 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: there's three modes maladaptive strategies humans used to deal with that. 66 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: So one of them is that people will think of 67 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 2: it as a job environment. People quit, people can become 68 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: reactive or toxic in the work environment, or people can 69 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: drop into learned helplessness and numb out. Well, those extremes 70 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 2: are tragic, right, Quitters suicide, people that become reactionary. What's 71 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: the extreme form of that violence. We've certainly seen a 72 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 2: growth in that. And the last one is numbing becomes addiction. Now, 73 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: when the data indicated for a long time that addictive 74 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: play was really limited to about seven percent of gamers 75 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 2: make three to seven percent, was a window the people 76 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: fell into that mode. But that radically changed in the 77 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: last ten years. And what really got my attention is 78 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: you have these nine, ten eleven year old kids that 79 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: are demonstrating addictive behaviors, let's call them compulsive obsessive behaviors. 80 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 2: What the heck? They don't have any of the hallmarks, 81 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: so it would indicate the emotional distress. They're not socially isolated, 82 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: they're not locked up. I mean they're like in loving 83 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 2: families that are supporting them. They're in schools, they're like, 84 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: nothing about their environment should predict this behavior. What is 85 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: going on? And what really came to my attention through 86 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 2: Professor Jonathan Height's book, The Anxious Generation, was the awareness 87 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,560 Speaker 2: that exactly what's too indicated. They changed the algorithm they 88 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: were developing to. The algorithm we were developing to is 89 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 2: is called the self determination theory. It's part of Mihail 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 2: check sent me High's flow. It has three components autonomy, mastery, 91 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 2: and relatedness. And I'll come back to that. What changed 92 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: is they started developing too a different algorithm. As an 93 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 2: algorithm started coming out in early two thousands. They started 94 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 2: teaching it at Stanford and other schools, and it's called 95 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: the Hook algorithm. And the Hook algorithm does something that 96 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 2: is I don't agree with it, but it's exactly what 97 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 2: Sue talked about. We developed companies like we did the 98 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: most insane thing ever as a population. We started valuing 99 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: companies on how much attention they could steal, not the 100 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,240 Speaker 2: value they delivered to their users, and it started in 101 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: social media. It was only a matter of time before 102 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: it spread to games. Notice who talked about mobile games. 103 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: He talked about like this was the turning point that 104 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: is wrecking everything. Is putting the Internet in kids' hands 105 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: twenty four to seven. It's with them everywhere, and that 106 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: is radically different than the old laptop gaming and console 107 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: gaming where you weren't going to lug your TV around 108 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: with you, right, you just you got up and walked away. 109 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 2: And also most of the games were barely ever online 110 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 2: and they didn't need online to play. And so what 111 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: did they do with the hook algorithm? So there's a 112 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: couple of things that I think would help your audience 113 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: understand what is actually happening and why this is so 114 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: devastating for their kids. So do I have your permission 115 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 2: to share? Because I want to back up so they 116 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: can understand, like why the hook algorithm is such a 117 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: problem for kids. 118 00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, just before you step into that, self determination theory 119 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: is the very foundation of pretty much all of the 120 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: work that I do. So happy families listeners are familiar 121 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 1: with me talking about how children need to feel like 122 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: they're getting a sense of progress and mastery. That's the 123 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: confidence need. 124 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 2: It's standing the familiar when you already know in your 125 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: audience know what I'm talking about. 126 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 1: And even that need for autonomy raight, the need to 127 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: feel choiceful. So that makes sense. But the hook algorithm, 128 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: which is, I know something that near Ale talks about 129 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: in his very popular book. That's something that we don't 130 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: talk about a whole lot here at all, the hijacking 131 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: of neural architecture by the world's smartest people from MIT 132 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: and Stamford and so on. So let's step into that. 133 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So humans are unique for a couple of reasons, 134 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 2: a bunch of reasons, but there's two in particular. So 135 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: number one, and I learned this from Gabermante and his 136 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 2: book Scattered Minds. So this touches into how our brains develop, 137 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: and it touches into ADHD but also neurodivergence, and what's 138 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 2: not becoming the spectrum of autism is just how our 139 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: brains developed. And step one is we are the only 140 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 2: animal that our brain quadruples in size after birth. Wales 141 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: and elephants might be born with a bigger brain, but 142 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: it doesn't get much bigger. Number two one the hit 143 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: list of brain growth or chimpanzees with a doubling that 144 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: means fold increase, and by five years old, the average 145 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: human has ninety percent of the brain size they're going 146 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: to have as an adult, but more neural connections. That 147 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: mean kids are just a little bundle of potential. And 148 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: if you've ever seen that, like kindergartener, maybe learn how 149 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 2: to throw a ball or kick or unskilled, that's it right, 150 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 2: they are just ready to get wired up to get 151 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: good at something. Now. The second thing that makes humans 152 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: unique in the mammalian species. Every other mammal goes from 153 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: birth to reproductive age as fast as possible. Our neighbor's 154 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: dog was three years old when they had our labrador puppy, 155 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: Cookie three three years old, ready to reproduce. Humans don't 156 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 2: do that. We pause for seven years before puberty starts. 157 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: Seven years. What is happening in that seven year window, Well, 158 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,079 Speaker 2: there's some research that was done that indicates what's happening 159 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,080 Speaker 2: for kids in that seven year window is that that 160 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 2: is when we absorb our culture, not just the family. 161 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,319 Speaker 2: We're part of the community, like it goes all the 162 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 2: way to the bones. That is where you're going to 163 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 2: build your cultural identity. If we dropped you in let's 164 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: say Japan before you know. In that seven year window, 165 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 2: you will not only speak fluently and natively, you'll get 166 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 2: the jokes, you'll know the food. You'll have a sense 167 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: of the design and the tastes of it, the smells 168 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: of it. You'll feel Japanese. If we pull you before nine, 169 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: you'll lose it. If we add you after thirteen, you'll 170 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 2: always feel like a foreigner, even if you learn to 171 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: speak fluently. So there's some magic that's getting baked into kids' brains. 172 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: Now let's go to the hook algorithm. What are they doing? 173 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 2: We as humans don't learn the way we think we learn. 174 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: We have baked into us a little trial and error loop. 175 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 2: And what's important about that is dopamine, which we all 176 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 2: think is sort of the achievement or hormone, does something different. 177 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 2: It really sparks learning. And when it's given in short 178 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 2: little doses, doesn't create satisfaction justin it creates craving. So 179 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: if you take that little hit craving thing and you 180 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: look at the trial and error, what happens is this 181 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 2: is about behaviors, not concepts, not intellectualism. We're talking like 182 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: physical movement, things that you need to do. Think about 183 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 2: picking up let's say a cricket bat. You're in Australia. 184 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 2: You're going to swing it a few times. What is 185 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: your brain doing in those first few swings. It's experimenting, 186 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 2: wait and feel. We're built for trial and error, and 187 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: what you're trying to do is map my behavior to 188 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 2: the results I get. And your brain is doing that 189 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 2: below the level of conscious thought. You're almost not even 190 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: aware that you're doing it. And so what the developers 191 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 2: learned is that if the reward in feedback is unpredictable 192 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: and variable, we can extend the window that you stay 193 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 2: in trial and error mode. What they did is they 194 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: built an algorithm. It starts with step one, the queue. 195 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: So why does every app you install on your phone 196 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: ask to turn on notifications Because it's the beginning of 197 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 2: the hook cycle. You've got to queue you to do something. 198 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: Then you're going to do a thing. Then we're going 199 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: to give you and this is the technical term, a 200 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: variable ratio reward. It's unpredictable and it's tuned to be 201 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: just the right amount to hold your attention, get you 202 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: your dopamine hit that never let you master the algorithm. 203 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 2: Then we're going to move you over to what's called investment, 204 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: and if we're lucky, what will happen is you will 205 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 2: start self cuing like a cigarette attic reaching for a cigarette. 206 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: And the difference between self determination games and hook games 207 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 2: are self determination is you're building skills that produce mostly 208 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 2: reliable results that you can build on, and you will 209 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: quote level up. You will use that skill to get 210 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 2: a largely predictable outcome, and then we'll give you more 211 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 2: complex things to go after, and away you go. That's progress. 212 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: Hook other rooms give you illusions of progress, but what 213 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: they're really trying to do is keep you stuck in 214 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: this trial and error loop, hammering your dopamine to maximize 215 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: your craving to the point where you can't even put 216 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: it down. And that's the behavior that is absolutely driving 217 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: kids and parents and everyone bonkers. It's not a game anymore. 218 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: It's not entertainment. Like literally what Sue said, it is 219 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 2: how much money can we make stealing people's attention? And 220 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: guess whose attention is almost vulnerable to being stolen? 221 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: Your kids for the benefit of people who are not 222 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 1: familiar with persuasive design elements. Would you mind sharing maybe 223 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 1: half a dozen of the most common, the most popular 224 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: persuasive design elements in the games that children play today. 225 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: Okay, so for me, I am not a designer of 226 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: those games. And that's a fantastic question. So here's the 227 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 2: hack I give parents that it would be like if 228 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 2: you want to avoid them, there's three things you can do. 229 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: So one of them is it's simple, and I'm not 230 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: trying to be Look, I don't own any stock in 231 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 2: video game companies. I don't own a video game company, 232 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 2: so I have no personal stake in this. But Number 233 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: one is buy your games, pay for the game. Be 234 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 2: the customer of the developer, be the person that you're 235 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,439 Speaker 2: trying to satisfy. Number two, pick games that you can 236 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 2: play offline that do not demand and always on internet connection. 237 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: Remember what Sue said about, oh, we're optimizing everything about 238 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: the user behavior. They can't do that if you're offline, 239 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 2: they don't know what you're doing. So pick games that 240 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: you could play in front of a couch and a 241 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: TV with the internet off. Can you play that game? 242 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: If you have to be online, You've got to be 243 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: extremely cautious about what you're playing because you're dealing with 244 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: a company that can outtrack everything you're doing and look 245 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: at selling that to somebody the values it more than 246 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: you do. And the other third hack is if you 247 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 2: talk to your player and you ask them what is 248 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: hard about this game for you? What do you find 249 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 2: interesting or challenging if it's a skill based game. So 250 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 2: let's take Minecraft. Okay, Minecraft generally and ninety nine percent 251 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: of the instance, I'm not aware of an instance where 252 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: that's become addictive. The way these hook games are. Kids 253 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: will talk about I'm learning to use redstone, I'm building something. 254 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 2: They talk like project managers. They have a goal, they're 255 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: trying to achieve something. They might be working with friends. 256 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: They could take you in the game and show you 257 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 2: what they're doing. It is like a little world they're building. 258 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: When they're dealing with a hook game, they start complaining 259 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: almost instantly, this is unfair and this is broken, and 260 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: this is where you see that like I can't ever 261 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,359 Speaker 2: remember seeing my kids rage spike a controller after playing Minecraft. 262 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: But when you're in an addictive they don't even know 263 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: what they're doing. They have a hard time describing it, 264 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: but they'll begin to tell you where the game is broken, 265 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: or I can't sleep at night, or like it's almost 266 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 2: like a trauma conversation. So one of the biggest clues 267 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 2: is how does your child think about and discuss playing 268 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 2: the game. And if they're using the language of progress, 269 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: you're probably playing a good game. If they're using the 270 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 2: language that talks about suffering or things that sound like 271 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: suffering or unfairness, think of it this way. Do they 272 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: sound empowered or do they sound like a victim. If 273 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 2: they sound like a victim, get them away from that game. 274 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,120 Speaker 2: If they sound like they're developing skills and growing, that 275 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: might be a game that is Spend some more time 276 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 2: and understand what's going on there. There's a higher probability 277 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 2: that's a safer game. But the mechanisms that I most 278 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: see with the hook games are they hide critical elements 279 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 2: off screen. There's nothing you can do as a player 280 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 2: to control the probability of a better outcome. Like things 281 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 2: just show up like here's a loot crate or here's 282 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 2: a bunch of gems, go ahead and match it. Like 283 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: the preconditions are masked from the player and they're just 284 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: presented with another situation. They're presented with another situation. And look, 285 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 2: we see this in social media right the number one 286 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 2: variable racial reward is people's fickle approval. Go talk to 287 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: people that are on social media, ask them what's the 288 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: result you're gonna get on that post. They're like, I 289 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 2: have no idea. It's all trial and error. I'm just 290 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: gonna keep coming back until I get one that hits, 291 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 2: and I'm gonna tune it. I'm gonna tweek it until oh, 292 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: that doesn't work anymore. And the games are not doing 293 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: that faster. More systematically is if the outcome is detached 294 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 2: from the behavior, you only get that randomness reward. That's 295 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 2: when you're in trouble. 296 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: Scott, one of my favorite things to do when I'm 297 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: presenting on screens and kids in a parent's setting. When 298 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 1: I'm running, one of my presentations is to pull out 299 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,160 Speaker 1: the book Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief. I'm sure 300 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: you know it well, and there's this scene as Percy 301 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: and Annabeth and Grover are racing across the United States. 302 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:15,879 Speaker 1: They're trying to save the world, trying to save his mom, 303 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: all that sort of stuff. They end up in Las 304 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: Vegas at the Lotus Hotel and Casino. They're exhausted, they 305 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: need a break. They walk in and instead of freshening 306 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: up and getting the rest that they need, they're drawn 307 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: into the games room. This is games room, especially for kids, 308 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: and Percy has this interaction where the whole it says, 309 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: the whole lobby was a giant game room, and I'm 310 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: not talking about cheesy old pac Man games or slot machines. 311 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: Then he describes how incredible it was and how they 312 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: started playing and he got really into it. And he's 313 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: talking to this guy called Darren Daubrn and the guy 314 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: keeps using words like groovy, and then as they're having 315 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: this conversation, he realizes that he uses different language. He 316 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: only feels like he's been two two weeks in the 317 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: games room, but when he asks him what year it is, 318 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: Darren says nineteen seventy seven. Then he meets someone from 319 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, someone from nineteen ninety three. They all 320 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: claimed they hadn't been in here very long, a few days, 321 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: a few weeks at most. They didn't really know and 322 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: they didn't care. And then the penny Drop says, this 323 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: moment of insight, then it occurred to me, how long 324 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,120 Speaker 1: had I been here? It seemed like only a couple 325 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: of hours, But was it I tried to remember why 326 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 1: were we here? So I love this. He's completely forgotten 327 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: that he's trying to save the world because he's so 328 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: enmeshed in the game. He goes over to Annabeth, still 329 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: building her city. Come on, I told her, We've got 330 00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: to get out of here. No response. I shook her, Annabeth. 331 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: She looked up, annoyed. What we need to leave? This 332 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,640 Speaker 1: place is a trap, Anabeth. There are people here from 333 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy seven, kids who have never aged. You check 334 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: in and you stay forever. What's your response? 335 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: One of the groups of people and one of the 336 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 2: reasons I do what I do. I coach use baseball 337 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 2: for fourteen years, and I'm very passionate about reason good man, 338 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: but also helping other men. Families are as good men. 339 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: Moms will come to me because they've got a boy 340 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 2: who's stuck in gaming, and by the time they're in 341 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: their early twenties or mid twenties and they have become Hickey, 342 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,239 Speaker 2: Gamori or neat, not employed in education or training. That 343 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: is a heavy lift to get a kid out of 344 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 2: that room. But if we can reach them at the 345 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: age we're talking about, if we can reach him in 346 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: that magic window, that seven to thirteen, that seven year window, 347 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: and give them a sense of purpose and direction and 348 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 2: keep games as just an interesting challenge part of their lives, 349 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: something fun to do, but not this sole purpose of 350 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 2: their lives. We have a much better chance of preventing 351 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 2: these kids from getting lost. We are missing, by some counts, 352 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 2: six hundred thousand millennial men from the workforce, and gen 353 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: Z's right on their heels, and Alpha right after him, 354 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: and so I think that's a real thing. I think 355 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: it's a real phenomenon in our economy, and we're seeing 356 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 2: it globally. They're just they're checking out. 357 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the danceta of effect of that is you're 358 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: not going to find somebody who's romantically interested in you, 359 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: which makes it harder to form families, and it makes 360 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: it harder to get the progression that's necessary to live 361 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: a fulfilling and relational life. 362 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 2: Right in the United States, sixty seven percent of college 363 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: students are now women. And in my family, some of 364 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 2: the girls that started asking where are the guys. Yeah, 365 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: these are massive changes that are happening to our culture 366 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: that have long term implications we don't fully understand yet. 367 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: But I find it hard to believe that we could 368 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 2: be blase about watching a huge chunk of the population 369 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: just vanish. 370 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: This place is a trappy checking you stay forever. I 371 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: love it. Your father three. Have any of your children 372 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: had compulsive, problematic, or even addictive tendencies when it comes 373 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: to games? Clearly games have been a big part of 374 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: your family's life. 375 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Well for me, it started with my oldest 376 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 2: and we didn't get into we were really in that. 377 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: Their version of cell phones were flip phones or sidekicks 378 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: with texting like the internet smartphone. They were adult, not adults, 379 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: but they had hit high school by the time the 380 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,560 Speaker 2: iPhone came out. It was too expensive to give it 381 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: to them, so they didn't really get it till college. 382 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it might all spend the same born in the 383 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 1: light naughties and mid twenties now and just kind of 384 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: a skyped that in a way that the younger kids didn't. 385 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 2: Right, And I want to go back to the brain 386 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: development and why it's different for a second, because the 387 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 2: part of your head that protects you from these algorithms 388 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: is your executive function. That doesn't begin to develop in 389 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: humans until high school. So my kids, by the time 390 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: they got smartphones were already protected from it because their 391 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,880 Speaker 2: brains were finishing developing. That when you're dealing with kids 392 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 2: that are thirteen or younger, or sixteen or younger, they 393 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 2: don't even have it yet. You as an adult or 394 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 2: having a completely different experience with these games than your 395 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: kids are. They don't have the circuitry in their heads 396 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 2: to protect them from the algorithm, so they're even more vulnerable. 397 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 2: So the issues that we have with my kids was 398 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,440 Speaker 2: understanding how to end game time. And this is something 399 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 2: I've coached a lot of parents on is how does 400 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 2: it video game end? But we know how board games end, 401 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,479 Speaker 2: we know how sports games end. But there's a million 402 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: ways at games end, and some of them you can 403 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 2: turn off, some of you can't even pause. And I 404 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: don't know a single parent that would walk out into 405 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: the middle of a baseball pitch while their kid is 406 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 2: getting ready to throw a pitcher and graunded by the collar, 407 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: going we're going to dinner now. It would be humiliating. 408 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 2: Nobody would do that. But I see parents do that 409 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: to their kids with video games because number one, all 410 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: they see as a kid with headphones are going to screen. 411 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: They have no idea they're playing with anyone. They have 412 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 2: no idea they're playing against another team, and they're clueless 413 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 2: that there's an audience. During COVID, we did thousands of 414 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: online tournaments for high schools and colleges, isolated kids who 415 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: couldn't go anywhere. We had nine spectators for every player. 416 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 2: It was crazy. So for your child emotionally ripping them 417 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: out of that environment, guess what it really them off 418 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 2: because it would have set anybody to get yank out 419 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 2: of the middle of work or lose work or whatever. 420 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 2: And so most of the instruction I did was to 421 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 2: help parents understand how to end game time without a fight. 422 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 2: And the key was number one, know how the game ends. 423 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: Number two, Negotiate with your kid how they're going to 424 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: end before they begin, and give them a choice. Hey, 425 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: we're in the car at five o'clock sharp, are you 426 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: sure you want to jump in that online game with 427 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 2: your friends? Uh, I'll play a Nintendo instead because I 428 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,640 Speaker 2: can pause that, I can stop it without stress. And 429 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: the third one is a thing we do thousands of 430 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: times every month. When it's a few minutes before game 431 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: time is over. We flick the lights in the room. 432 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: We don't yell at them We don't scream at them, 433 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 2: we don't touch them. We flick the lights. Humans are 434 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 2: super sensitive to peripheral vision. And when the entire lights 435 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: in your rooms start going on and off, they're gonna 436 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: look up. That's your cue. Gently touch them on the 437 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: shoulder and go. You have five minutes to wrap this up, 438 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: reinforce their sense of agency, their sense of control. They've 439 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 2: agreed to end game time on time. And what I 440 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: hear is ninety five to ninety eight percent of the 441 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 2: time kids and they'll wrap it up, they get up 442 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 2: and they move on when it's a healthy game. I 443 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: even hear this from the kids, Oh my god, I 444 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: can put this game down. They feel like they've gotten 445 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 2: agency back, they feel like they've gotten control back. And 446 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: what I hear from my friends that are family therapists, 447 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 2: the psychologists, when they're playing the addictive games, it's a 448 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:42,399 Speaker 2: meltdown and the kid is out of control. They're just regulated. 449 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: They're miserable. So it's miserable for everybody because we're giving 450 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 2: them free games. I feel bad for parents. They think 451 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 2: they're giving their kid a toy. 452 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: We really emphasize real solutions for parents. So struggling with 453 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: this and what you've just stepped us through. There is 454 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: so valuable. The challenge that I know parents are going 455 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 1: to face as they listen to that is but what 456 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: about the five percent who don't respond? What about the 457 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: five percent who when the lights start flashing, say no 458 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: and they start the meltdown already, or they say I 459 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 1: need fifteen more minutes, I'm not ready yet. What kind 460 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: of response do you have for that? 461 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so let me expand that. A lot of y'all 462 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 2: have very smart kids, and so they will try to negotiate, well, 463 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 2: let me just finish this match, and then they'll jump 464 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 2: into a match mode that never ends. Right. There'll be 465 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: all sorts of games are going to play, and part 466 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: of that is welcome to be an adult and a 467 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 2: parent and work with them. I am a fan of 468 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: getting off games the kids themselves lose the ability to 469 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: self terminate if the player cannot voluntarily end the game. 470 00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 2: Because that's really what the difference is, right is, most 471 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: of the friction with my kids was built around me 472 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 2: forcing an end condition on them while they were in 473 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: the middle of something at grossing, and that could be 474 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: pretty disturbing. What we're talking about now is a difference 475 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 2: between that condition and I'm hooked, and I am not 476 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 2: a fan of hooked games. I'm like, get off of them, 477 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 2: get away from them. There's better things to be doing 478 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,239 Speaker 2: with your time. There's no good outcome from being in 479 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: this hooked environment. And we haven't even talked about how 480 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 2: can none of these companies do age verification? There was 481 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: a a I think it was Ubs Wahlberg, and there's 482 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 2: some analysis of some of these game platforms. I have 483 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,400 Speaker 2: bad news for you. Guess what the number one platform 484 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: for pedophiles is now games? Young kids play free games? Yeah, 485 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,399 Speaker 2: Red Books, Yes, one hundred percent. And you have the 486 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,160 Speaker 2: most valuable company on the planet, or one of them, 487 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 2: Meta that somehow can't manage to do age verification. We 488 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: do an age verification all the time the real world. 489 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 2: Why can't we do it online? We don't want to. 490 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: They don't want to change their model, so it doesn't 491 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 2: help parents like I think kids. I think parents and 492 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 2: kids deserved as the same protections online that they get 493 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 2: in the real world. But your question was what do 494 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: I do about the five percent? Well, I would start 495 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: with one. If you're seeing that behavior, go through the 496 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 2: question process, can you play that game offline? Well, why 497 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 2: don't we try to move into a game we can 498 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 2: play offline. If you walk your way through buying a 499 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: game that can be played offline and you're still seeing that, 500 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: then I would encourage you to see professional help because 501 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: your child is likely going to be suffering from compulsive 502 00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: gamer syndrome. I think they call it. But if you 503 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 2: just start taking away, and this is the stuff we 504 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 2: see over and over again is if you detox right, 505 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: take it away, get them out, get them moving, get 506 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 2: them out in a natural environment, get them into nature, 507 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: get them to decompress. It's like taking their phones away. Man, 508 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: it makes a huge difference. And that's one of probably 509 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 2: one of the single biggest things that we see is 510 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 2: it's how dangerous the phones are and the tablets. Is 511 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 2: that that's where a lot of these games and shovelwear 512 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: come from. You know. Some of the tips are make 513 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 2: sure your phone has a bedtime, no screens in the 514 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: bedroom at night. Lots of parents think, oh, my kid 515 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: is oh they turned the screens off, Like no, they 516 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 2: don't think wit to U fall sit and they get 517 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 2: up and go play again. And teachers just ask your teachers, 518 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 2: is my kid palling a sleeping class. That's your single 519 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: biggest clue that kids are sneaking more game time. I 520 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: have a friend who found their son had a burner 521 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 2: phone so they could be online with games a burner phone, 522 00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: Are you kidding me? Like, the links they're going to 523 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 2: because they're hooked are just crazy. So part of it 524 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 2: is getting them away from that and then getting them 525 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: into an environment where they're they've got control. That's the 526 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: biggest thing is are these games either reinforcing their sense 527 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 2: of agency or these games completely deleting it? And step 528 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: one is get rid of the games that are deleting 529 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: their sense of agency. Then walk yourself through the progression, 530 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: and if you get to the end of your rope 531 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 2: they really can't let it go, then you probably need help. 532 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: If we want to have effective conversations with our children 533 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: about reducing screen time and gaming time, or at least 534 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: making sure that it's healthier and productive than many parents 535 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: feel that it is. What do you encourage parents to do? 536 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 1: How do you guide them so that the kids aren't 537 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: running around behind their back and being deceitful, or so 538 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 1: that World War three isn't blowing up in the living 539 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: room in the middle of this game. 540 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: Part of the reason I'm doing this to get out 541 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 2: and talk is that it's tough. Like keeping phones out 542 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 2: of the hands of kids is extremely difficult. And the 543 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 2: world probably you and I grew up in, which is hey, 544 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 2: go out and play with your friends. You send kids outside. 545 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: Today there's nobody out there. 546 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: I say to my kids all the time, I wish 547 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: you could have the childhood that I had that was 548 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: so it was so active, it was so social, it 549 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: was so so engaged in the world around us, instead 550 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,719 Speaker 1: of sitting on the carpet in the living room and 551 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: staring at a screen and being with your friends there. 552 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: It's just I feel like we lived in such a 553 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: rich world relative to what we have today. For the kids. 554 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 2: Look, let's you know, let's be honest. Like my wife 555 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: and I as parents struggle with how much we're on 556 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: our phones. We struggle. My son was the one that 557 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 2: came in because by the time they're in their twenties now, 558 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 2: they are wanting to spend more time with us. He 559 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 2: had the phone stack. We went to dinner and he goes, okay, everybody, 560 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 2: stack your phone's up. Whoever pulls our phone first is 561 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: paying for dinner, you know. And it was like, I 562 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 2: love he came up with that. I loved that one. 563 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 2: That was great. But at the end of the day, 564 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: it's do they need a smartphone or do they need 565 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 2: a phone? And when I talked to educators are like, 566 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 2: we don't want your kids on their phone in school. 567 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: So there's a bit movement right now in the US. 568 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: I think they just passed it in New York to 569 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: have phone free schools, and I'm all for that. So 570 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: some of this is we need some legislation, we need 571 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: to set some ground rules. These are our communities, our economies, 572 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 2: and I think parents need to be aware of what's 573 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 2: happening and we need to demand protections for our kids. 574 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: Until that happens. I'm currently researching what are some of 575 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: the best most effective software solutions, But what we keep 576 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: hearing is whatever you install some IP blocker on the phone, 577 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 2: or you get a rout or whatever, the kids just 578 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 2: go to a website at school, to go to a 579 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: friend's house to look up how to get around it, 580 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 2: and I get around it. And what we never had 581 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 2: to do I don't do in my house. But what 582 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 2: I've heard people have success with is specifically the devices, 583 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: is lock them up, like physically make sure you have 584 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 2: that device in your hands at night at bedtime, and 585 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: it gets locked and only the parents have access to it, 586 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 2: and that activity makes a big difference. What I've seen 587 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: now that is a new thing is schools, well meaning 588 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 2: schools are giving kids chromebooks and the kids are getting 589 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 2: the free games through the chromebooks. And I've been like, 590 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 2: go get a console. They're not that expensive compared to 591 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 2: the misery you're suffering. And when the kid has redirected 592 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 2: to a safer form of play, like they just I 593 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 2: just hear they're like, oh my god, we can end 594 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: game time without a fight. Even our son is happier 595 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 2: and they're having healthier conversations. So Arthur Brooks talked about 596 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 2: it is sometimes you can't eliminate something, but you can 597 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: replace it. And so that's one of the key is 598 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: that can you replace it with something healthier? And I'm 599 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: not an expert in social media, I know girls are suffering. 600 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: And what's happened is this attention stealing economy hurts boys 601 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: by giving them fake agency. They're not really doing anything, 602 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 2: but the game makes them feel like they are, so 603 00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 2: they're are pretending to do risky things and pretending to 604 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: develop skills and they're not really. And girls are seeking 605 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: community and they're going out and they're pretending to see community, 606 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: but they're not really the biggest thing we need and 607 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 2: this is that huge opportunity for NGOs, faith organizations and 608 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: even schools. But kids really need is they need to 609 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: get out in environments where they're face to face doing 610 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 2: something at the same time and high commitment, hard to join, 611 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: hard to leave, so they have a reason to stick 612 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 2: together and work out all the bumbling social awkwardness that 613 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: is part of growing up and learning to be human. 614 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: Scott, we need to start to move towards conclusion. For 615 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: a lightning round. Yes, no questions, short answers. 616 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 2: I'll do my best. 617 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: I know that whenever I do one of these, I'm like, oh, 618 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: but this is so much more. I want to say, 619 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: let's see how we go. If you do need to expand, 620 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: let's keep it really taught. Question number one, and these 621 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 1: are intentionally meant to be provocative. Number one. Are parents 622 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: who allow high levels of, if not unlimited, gaming access 623 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: failing their children? 624 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: No, I cannot say that definitively. 625 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,760 Speaker 1: Did your Disney background make you more lenient about screen time? 626 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: Than other parents that you've seen. 627 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 2: No, I was already in the video game industry before 628 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 2: I joined. 629 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: Disney Roadblocks yes or no. No, absolutely not Fortnite Yes 630 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: or no, absolutely not Minecraft. 631 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: Yes. 632 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: We talked about this before, but I'd like to get 633 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: some clarity on it. Is the gaming industry deliberately designing 634 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: addictive mechanics that target children. 635 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: There are studios and companies that are doing what you're describing. 636 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 2: There are many companies that are not. It is a 637 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 2: diverse industry, and there are some great companies out there 638 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 2: producing great, engaging entertainment. And that's part of the reason 639 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 2: I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm angry at the industry 640 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 2: I love that can create fun, compelling, great entertainment is 641 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 2: being co opted by thieves. It's not right, Scott. 642 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: Do you believe violent games desensitized children to real world violence? 643 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 2: Man, No, I've wrote enough studies to indicate that's likely 644 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 2: not true. 645 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: Is the rise of gaming culture creating a generation that 646 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: is less equipped for physical and face to face social 647 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: realities and challenges. 648 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 2: I didn't get to talk about it, but we were 649 00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: seeing a rise in what they're calling synthetic or virtual autism, 650 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: steering at glass is breaking the kid's connection between how 651 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 2: their behavior affects other people. They don't recognize the cues. Well, 652 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,919 Speaker 2: they're becoming face blind. They're losing the ability to read 653 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 2: other people's emotions, and we're seeing a up to four 654 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 2: or five year degradation or slow down and social emotional intelligence. Like, 655 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 2: there's data to indicate this is true. This is not 656 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:05,240 Speaker 2: an opinion. 657 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: And the last question, do you think the metaverse will 658 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: eventually replace traditional childhood experiences? 659 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: Here's what we're fighting is if it's not the metaverse. 660 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 2: This was the whole premise behind Jonathan Height's book, is 661 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: that we've moved to a phone based childhood instead of 662 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: a play based childhood. We need to get back to 663 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 2: a play based childhood because you're priming. The culture our 664 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,880 Speaker 2: kids are absorbing is now Internet culture, not our culture, 665 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 2: not real world culture, but an environment that prioritizes novelty 666 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:46,040 Speaker 2: over norms and normallessness is really deeply unhealthy for humans. 667 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: We need a community to be a part of to 668 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,439 Speaker 2: experience our individuality. Individuality and isolation is not individuality, it's pain. 669 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 2: And so yeah, I really am a firm believer now 670 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: that we have to get back to a play based childhood. 671 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: Scott, you're doing amazing work. The conversation that we've had 672 00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: today is so important for parents. His kids love to game, 673 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: and you've provide us with some number one great information, 674 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: but um to some really practical strategies to assist when 675 00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: things get tricky around kids screens, games and the conflict 676 00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: that can sue. As we wrap up, is there anything 677 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: that you want people to know? 678 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 2: There's one thing we didn't touch on is it's very 679 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,759 Speaker 2: important to me. This is something I try to catch 680 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 2: a lot of parents on is focus on that social 681 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,879 Speaker 2: emotional development. Don't I don't get obsessed with absolute screen time. 682 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 2: If my kids are in front of a console playing 683 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 2: with their friends in person hours, let them have at it, right, 684 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:49,560 Speaker 2: it's a social engaging interaction dynamic. If they're online by 685 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 2: themselves playing with god knows who, or they're on their 686 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,959 Speaker 2: phone playing with god knows who, ten or fifteen minutes 687 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: might be too long, and so it's really about what 688 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 2: is the social environment that they're learning from, and that's 689 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,239 Speaker 2: the piece that we want to optimize around. And I 690 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 2: encourage parents play the games with your kids. If you 691 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 2: can't play with them, that's another big red flag. In fact, 692 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: playing badly is a gift because these kids are not 693 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 2: seeing what it looks like to struggle. Everybody's presenting perfect 694 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,279 Speaker 2: appearances online in games and social media, and so they 695 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 2: think they're the only ones struggling. Emotionally, show them what 696 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 2: it looks like for a mature adult to struggle to 697 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: learn to do something well, and normalize those behaviors with them. 698 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,280 Speaker 2: But I hear over again from parents is it dramatically 699 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 2: changes the conversations they have with their kids around gaming 700 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 2: and on how their kids are feeling. 701 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: Scott's such a valuable discussion. If people want more information 702 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: about you and what you do, where should they go 703 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 1: and how can they be in touch? 704 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 2: Scottnovis dot com is my personal website. I wish we 705 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: had operations in Australia. Game truck dot com is that 706 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 2: if you want to know more about the company I founded. 707 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: But if you want to reach me, Scottnervous dot com 708 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: is the best way to reach out to me, and 709 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: I'm most active on LinkedIn. 710 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: Willing to all of those resources. In the show notes, 711 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: Scott has been such a such a delight to have 712 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: you on and so grateful for what you've shared. 713 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,680 Speaker 2: Thank you was that helpful? 714 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,759 Speaker 1: So helpful. I know every parent who's listener is going 715 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: to be like, oh yeah, I'm going to do the lights. 716 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,759 Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from 717 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: Bridge Media. For more information about making your family happier, 718 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: you can visit us at happy families dot com dot 719 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,960 Speaker 1: you and check out some of my webinars about keeping 720 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: kids in healthy relationships with their screens happy families dot 721 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 1: com dot you,