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Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.

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Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just

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Speaker 2: once answers.

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Speaker 1: Now here's what I know at the moment. Our older

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Speaker 1: teens in particular are missing out on all of the

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Speaker 1: significant life events that they would typically be involved in.

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Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum

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Speaker 1: and dad, missus Happy Families. We have got two days

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Speaker 1: two days until the school holidays arrive on the eastern

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Speaker 1: seaboard all of Queensland, New South Wales the Act Victoria

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Speaker 1: on school holidays starting tomorrow afternoon. Are you excited for it?

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Speaker 2: I might just be getting a little bit excited. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I have been waiting to see what our government is

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Speaker 2: going to do, but I think we actually might make

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Speaker 2: it to the holidays unscathed.

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Speaker 1: This might be the first time in what feels like

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Speaker 1: more than a year since well, hopefully there won't be

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Speaker 1: a lockdown. Hopefully Brisbane and Queensland are going to escape.

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Speaker 1: For those of you who are in New South Wales,

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Speaker 1: the Act Victoria and New Zealand school holiday is probably

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Speaker 1: not quite what you are hoping because lockdowns continue to continue.

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Speaker 1: But are we are justin and Kylie Coulson, the founders

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Speaker 1: of happy Families dot com dot are your parents to

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Speaker 1: six children. I'm the author of six books about raising

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Speaker 1: happy families. And this is the Happy Families Podcast Kylie.

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Speaker 1: Every month or so, you allow me to geek out,

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Speaker 1: get a little bit excited, dive into the latest research

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Speaker 1: from all around the world to look at what's happening

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Speaker 1: in families and what we can take from science implement

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Speaker 1: in our homes to make our families flourish.

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Speaker 2: And today's the day you're saying that, like, I have

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Speaker 2: a choice.

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Speaker 1: That was my that was my wicked laughing. So let's

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Speaker 1: get into it. We've got we've got three studies. You know,

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Speaker 1: should we do the should I do the wicked witch? Laugh?

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Speaker 1: I just go for it. Okay, this is the kids

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Speaker 1: love this one. You're ready, Yes, okay, I'm back. Let's

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Speaker 1: do this.

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Speaker 2: Sit Downald Duck.

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Speaker 1: You want me to come on, we're about to get

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Speaker 1: academic and science and you want me to do Donald Duck?

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Speaker 1: Why do you want me to? Donald? Do it? Did

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Speaker 1: you like that? The kids are into me all the time? Wonderful?

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Speaker 1: All right? That is I don't know where that came from,

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Speaker 1: and I'm not.

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Speaker 2: Sure Donald Duck, doctor.

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Speaker 1: Doctor, Donald, I know, all right, So let's talk science

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Speaker 1: because I need to recover from what you've just put

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Speaker 1: me through.

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Speaker 2: Look, there had to be something and it filled me.

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Speaker 1: If that did it for you, you are very easily pleased.

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Speaker 1: Let's have a look at the latest science. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about three different studies that have come

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Speaker 1: out in the last few weeks that have really caught

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Speaker 1: my eye. One of them is a what we call

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Speaker 1: a meta analysis, that is a study of a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of studies. This is looking at the global prevalence

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Speaker 1: of depressive and anxiety symptoms in children and adolescents during

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen from around the world. Second one that we're

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Speaker 1: going to look at considers ADHD and being the youngest

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Speaker 1: in the class and how that seems to relate to

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Speaker 1: long term outcomes in kids. And the third one, I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to talk about this one very much, talking about

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Speaker 1: the importance of enjoying school and what that does for kids' grades. So, Kylie,

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Speaker 1: where should we start? Are you happy to go in

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Speaker 1: that order? Do you want to mix it up?

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Speaker 2: Always in the beginning, that's the best place to start.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's start at the beginning. This one is looking.

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Speaker 1: Now for the last couple of weeks, we've been going really,

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Speaker 1: really deep on what we can do about the reality

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Speaker 1: that study after study after study has pointed to COVID

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Speaker 1: nineteen and specifically lockdowns and government restrictions. There's no way

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Speaker 1: to I've got to be a sledgehammer about this. An

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Speaker 1: absolutely devastating impact on the mental health of our communities,

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Speaker 1: and our children are not escaping this. In fact, they're

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Speaker 1: being significantly affected. This study meta analysis, so we're looking

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Speaker 1: at twenty nine studies nearly eighty one thousand young people.

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Speaker 2: So what did they actually find in relation to depression

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Speaker 2: and anxiety in our children?

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Speaker 1: Twenty five point two percent of children and teens were

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Speaker 1: clinically evaluated as having depression, and twenty point five percent

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Speaker 1: of children and adolescents were clinically evaluated as having anxiety.

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Speaker 1: What about one in four yeah, one in four to

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Speaker 1: one and five. Now in Australia, we've got data that

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Speaker 1: suggests that that's pretty much bang on, maybe even here

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Speaker 1: in Australia a little bit higher. And that's because again

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Speaker 1: the lockdowns, particularly for Victoria, but increasingly now for New

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Speaker 1: South Wales and the Act, the lockdowns are having an

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Speaker 1: undeniable impact on how children are coping, and the data

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Speaker 1: is telling us that they're not coping well. In fact,

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Speaker 1: these researchers said, the prevalence of depression and anxiety symptoms

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Speaker 1: during COVID nineteen have doubled compared with pre pandemic estimates.

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Speaker 1: And in Australia we know that adolescents we had about

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent of them that were already pre pandemic showing

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Speaker 1: up with anxiety. We're pretty confident now that that's somewhere

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Speaker 1: closer to twenty five percent, maybe even getting a little

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Speaker 1: harder than that. We are talking just staggering. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that we're talking about these kinds of numbers.

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Speaker 1: And I think that this is a really big risk

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Speaker 1: for governments to be aware of because the long term

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Speaker 1: impact of this could be significant. So what comparance do well,

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Speaker 1: We've talked about this extensively. If you were to go

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Speaker 1: back to listen to our podcasts from last week, where

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Speaker 1: we spend an entire week talking about what we can do,

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Speaker 1: that would probably be the best thing. But the very

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Speaker 1: brief summary, Make sure that the kids aren't retreating of

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Speaker 1: their rooms too much. Make sure that they're getting outside time.

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Speaker 1: Nature is fuel for the soul. Make sure that they're exercising,

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Speaker 1: moving their bodies and not just slumped on the couch

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Speaker 1: all day every day. Make sure that they're connecting with

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Speaker 1: people that they love in whatever way you can, and

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Speaker 1: if it can be face to face, that would be ideal.

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Speaker 1: Just make sure that you keep it legal. They're probably

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Speaker 1: the main things. If they've got an interest, ensure that

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Speaker 1: they have the opportunity to pursue that interest. I could

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Speaker 1: keep on going, but I think you get the picture.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that things will improve once lockdowns shift

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Speaker 2: and left?

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Speaker 1: I like that way you said that. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think that anybody can really tell. Here's

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Speaker 1: what I know at the moment. Our older teens in

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Speaker 1: particular are missing out on all of the significant life

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Speaker 1: events that they would typically be involved in. Lockdowns have meant.

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Speaker 1: I mean, can you imagine being in New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Act Victoria and not being able to do your end

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Speaker 1: of year Year twelve exams and having the disruption there.

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Speaker 1: They've missed out on formals, They've missed out on coming

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Speaker 1: of age celebrations, They've missed out on birthdays, They've missed

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Speaker 1: out on being able to say goodbye to their friends

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Speaker 1: the way a school year should end. Now. Now, they

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Speaker 1: may not have completely missed out, because we know that

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Speaker 1: Andrews and Verry Chicklean are talking about changing the kid's

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Speaker 1: experience and access of school, but they're certainly not having

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Speaker 1: what everybody has hissed or really had with the wonderful

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Speaker 1: experiences there, and there is a grieving process that's associated

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Speaker 1: with that. I think that they're missing out on closure

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Speaker 1: and that's a really big deal. But they're also looking

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Speaker 1: at an uncertain future with no idea where this is

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Speaker 1: going to go. Will they get over it? I think

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Speaker 1: most of them probably will, but we really don't have

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Speaker 1: an answer for it. Most children who have experienced elevated

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Speaker 1: mental health symptoms, I think that for many of them

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Speaker 1: it will resolve and they'll just get on with live.

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Speaker 1: But there's going to be a group of children for

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Speaker 1: whom that isn't the case, and they're going to be

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Speaker 1: on a trajectory that I think we could probably call challenging,

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Speaker 1: to say the least. And there's another group of children

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Speaker 1: who already had mental health difficulties pre pandemic, and they're

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Speaker 1: probably going to struggle long term because the pandemic has

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Speaker 1: exacerbated and accelerated what they were experiencing.

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Speaker 2: We'll look at another study after the break.

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Speaker 1: It's their Happy Famili's podcast.

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Speaker 2: For a happier family, Try a Happy Families membership, because

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Speaker 2: a happy family doesn't just happen.

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Speaker 1: Details at happyfamilies dot com dot Au.

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Speaker 2: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the time

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Speaker 2: poor parent who just wants answers now. And today I'm

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Speaker 2: letting you geek out. It's the Doctor's Desk. We've talked

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Speaker 2: about COVID and the impact that it's having on our

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Speaker 2: children with depression and anxiety numbers rising, and now we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about ADHD and our children who are

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Speaker 2: young for their age.

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Speaker 1: So a few weeks ago in a recent Doctor's Desk

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Speaker 1: we talked about how there's a number of studies from

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Speaker 1: around the world, including here in Australia, that indicate that

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Speaker 1: children who are the youngest in their cohort tend to

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Speaker 1: be more likely to be diagnosed with ADHD. Well some

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Speaker 1: researchers from Sweden have decided to try to work out

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Speaker 1: whether or not there are any long term negative outcomes

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Speaker 1: from being the youngest in the cohort or being diagnosed

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Speaker 1: with ADHD, particularly when you're the youngest in the cohort.

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Speaker 1: And this is a really fascinating research. It's also kind

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Speaker 1: of provocative because any conversation around ADHD and any suggestion

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Speaker 1: that it's anything other than a neurological disorder can really

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Speaker 1: irritate and upset a lot of people. So we're not

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Speaker 1: trying to be provocative. We're simply reporting on what the

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Speaker 1: science is showing. These researchers got a really nice large

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Speaker 1: sample of Swedish kids. They compared the children who were

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Speaker 1: born in January and February of the year with those

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Speaker 1: born in November in December. So they're essentially saying, if

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Speaker 1: you're in grade three and you're a January February child,

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Speaker 1: that means that you're pretty much ten to twelve months

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Speaker 1: older than the kids who were born in November December. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: youngest versus oldest, let's have a look at what's going

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Speaker 1: on here. The total of three hundred thousand kids, around

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Speaker 1: about six and a half thousand had an ADHD diagnosis.

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Speaker 1: And what they did was they basically looked at how

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Speaker 1: those children were going when they were little. Then they

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Speaker 1: had look at them aged between fifteen and twenty three,

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Speaker 1: and they were having a look at whether or not

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Speaker 1: they were doing well at school, whether or not they

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Speaker 1: were involved with substance use disorder, which is a pretty

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Speaker 1: high threshold. We're not just talking about whether they were

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Speaker 1: using alcohol and other drugs. We're talking about kids that

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Speaker 1: have got a disorder associated with substance use. They also

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Speaker 1: looked at criminality and depression and the results are fairly complicated,

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Speaker 1: but let me distill it into some into the simplest

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Speaker 1: possible terms. Essentially, kids that were young but didn't have ADHD,

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Speaker 1: that is, the kids that were younger in the cohort,

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Speaker 1: but they never ended up having an ADHD diagnosis. They

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Speaker 1: just because they were the youngest, it was associated with

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Speaker 1: greater risk of depression, greater substance use disorder, and lower

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Speaker 1: educational achievement, which I think is fascinating. And again not

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Speaker 1: that being the youngest causes these things. There's plenty of

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Speaker 1: people who are young in their cohort that don't go

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Speaker 1: on to have substance use disorder. They still do very

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Speaker 1: very well at school and they don't end up with depression,

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Speaker 1: but these things are associated.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting as you talking like I'm thinking about one

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Speaker 2: of our children. She is the youngest in her class. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: by a long shot. And in the very early days

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Speaker 2: she held her own.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and everyone said she's ready. Push her into school.

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Speaker 1: She's absolutely ready for this.

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Speaker 2: But what we're noticing now as she progresses is just

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Speaker 2: she's just still a little bit younger the other kids.

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Speaker 1: The maturity level isn't there anymore, it.

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Speaker 2: Really is, and it's having an impact. And I think

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Speaker 2: about the experiences that I had, you know, on that

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Speaker 2: desire to fit in and and you know, kind of

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Speaker 2: be a part of the crowd. And when you don't

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Speaker 2: fit in because your maturity level isn't there, then you've

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Speaker 2: got to work harder, and it's hiring.

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Speaker 1: It's so hard, and you just know you're not the same.

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Speaker 2: And you're thinking of you know, coming of age and

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Speaker 2: wanting to fit in. And this idea that substance abuse

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Speaker 2: and use increases may have an impact.

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Speaker 1: Well, they're trying to be like everyone else, perhaps, And

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Speaker 1: research does show that the earlier you start using these

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Speaker 1: kinds of substances, the more likely it is that it

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Speaker 1: will be problematic, so that that one year difference could

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Speaker 1: actually be be really important in that particular conversation. Now

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Speaker 1: here's interesting. Here's where it gets even more interesting. I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad that you're enjoying this.

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Speaker 2: I didn't say I was enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: You said it was interest. That's a proxy for enjoyment.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say the children with ADHD were just

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Speaker 1: They also experienced an increased risk of substance use disorder,

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Speaker 1: but that's typical for children with ADHD anyway, because they're

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Speaker 1: more likely to be impulsive, they're more likely to take risks,

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Speaker 1: and they also experienced lower educational achievement. We've known this

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Speaker 1: for a long time. But here's the thing. The kids

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Speaker 1: with ADHD weren't more likely to have depression or criminal behavior,

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Speaker 1: and so it seems that children with ADHD diagnoses can

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Speaker 1: actually still grow up without any worries about depression. They

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Speaker 1: probably struggle at school, but we've always known that they will,

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Speaker 1: and they may struggle with some risk taking. But compared

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Speaker 1: to the kids that were just young for their age group,

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Speaker 1: young for their cohort, they were the ones that seemed

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Speaker 1: to struggle a little bit more. When we look at

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Speaker 1: this data, the ADHD kids are actually doing well relative

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Speaker 1: to the ones that are just the youngest in the cohort.

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Speaker 2: Wow, that's really interesting, But I'm wondering how that helps moms.

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Speaker 1: And dads, Yeah, the average mum or dad. So basically

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Speaker 1: what it's saying is what I think that all this,

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Speaker 1: combined with all of the other research on the topic,

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Speaker 1: really says that children should not be pushed into school

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Speaker 1: at a young age. We need to be having really

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Speaker 1: intelligent conversations about how old children should be, what the

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Speaker 1: developmental milestones are that they need to hit before they're

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Speaker 1: ready for school, before the academic learning, before the educational

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Speaker 1: pressure that comes on them. We need to be talking

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Speaker 1: about how we can make those early school years much

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Speaker 1: much much more enjoyable and take the pressure off I

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Speaker 1: think later school starts the way we should be going.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, because that

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Speaker 2: really is a wonderful segue into our last study over

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Speaker 2: the day.

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Speaker 1: I see how I didn't even mean to do that.

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Speaker 1: So this one comes out of the UK. It's associations

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Speaker 1: between school enjoyment at age six and later educational achievement.

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Speaker 2: This is kind of one that actually breaks my heart

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Speaker 2: a little bit because when you look at a toddler

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Speaker 2: and then a preschool and you look at the way

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Speaker 2: they are just wired to learn, and they just love

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Speaker 2: discovering lights of up. It just it's so amazing to watch.

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Speaker 2: And then you watch what happens over the first couple

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Speaker 2: of years of school, generally speaking, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: our kids curiosity gets squashed because they just get boxed in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is what the research has found. They

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Speaker 1: were looking at. What they basically said is we know

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Speaker 1: that there's a whole range of factors that affect the

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Speaker 1: quality of education and how well people do at school.

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Speaker 1: How will our children do at school? But one thing

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Speaker 1: that's never really been researched before is how much children

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Speaker 1: enjoy being at school, which I thought is fascinating. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe that we've never looked at school enjoyment anyway,

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Speaker 1: a nice, big example of about twelve thousand kids, and

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Speaker 1: what they found was that students' school enjoyment at age

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Speaker 1: six was very strongly associated with later achievement at age

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Speaker 1: sixteen looking at the compulsory UK exams. So basically, the

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Speaker 1: kids that had more fun, the kids that liked being

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Speaker 1: at school when they were just six years old, did

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Speaker 1: significantly better as much as three grade levels higher when

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Speaker 1: they were sixteen ten years later, just because school was

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Speaker 1: fun when they were well, at least, that's one of

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Speaker 1: the associations. Now they canceled out. In the statistics, they

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Speaker 1: looked at family background, they looked at cognitive ability, they

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Speaker 1: looked at the amount of money that the family had,

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Speaker 1: whether socioeconomics could have something to do with it, And

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Speaker 1: what they basically said is the kids do better when

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Speaker 1: they have fun. Some other things that were really interesting.

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Speaker 1: Girls reported enjoying school twice as often twice as much

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Speaker 1: as boys did. But essentially, what this is saying, if

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Speaker 1: I was to summarize it in really simple terms, even

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Speaker 1: after you control for intelligence, even after you control for

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Speaker 1: socio economic background and all that kind of thing, students

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Speaker 1: who enjoy school at age six earn higher standardized test

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Speaker 1: scores at sixteen. And as an extension of that, research

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Speaker 1: tells us that teachers are the ones who really set

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Speaker 1: the tone for intrinsic motivation, because students who like their

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Speaker 1: teachers are nine times more likely to enjoy school. How

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Speaker 1: did you go to school?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you right now. The teachers that

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Speaker 2: I loved, I did really well in the subjects and

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Speaker 2: we watched that in our home, we've got amazingly talented

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Speaker 2: and intelligent children, and the subjects where they don't get

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Speaker 2: on with their teachers, they just don't do well.

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Speaker 1: Fascinating stuff. Now, this does not mean that if your

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Speaker 1: children are happy at school at age six that they're

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Speaker 1: going to absolutely be guaranteed to do better. It just

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Speaker 1: means that, on average, what we usually see is a

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Speaker 1: positive relationship between these two things. And I think that

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Speaker 1: it's fascinating. Once again, we want to encourage kids to

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Speaker 1: have great relationships with their teachers, because if they do,

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Speaker 1: they're nine times more likely to enjoy school. And if

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Speaker 1: they enjoy school at age six, they're significantly more likely

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Speaker 1: to do well on those standardized test scores at age sixteen,

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Speaker 1: even after we control for all of the other factors

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Speaker 1: that could contribute to it. That is the doctor's death

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Speaker 1: for this week.

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Speaker 2: I want to say, I'm looking forward to the next

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Speaker 2: one in four weeks time. But yes, yes, you are

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Speaker 2: you enjoyed that it's four weeks break?

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Speaker 1: Do you know? I enjoyed that? It hurts my head

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Speaker 1: because you like me, and because you like me, you

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Speaker 1: enjoy what we get to do. You like me and

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Speaker 1: it was nine times more enjoyable, nine times more enjoyable

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Speaker 1: than a regular podcast. Wow. We hope that you enjoyed

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Speaker 1: the podcast. If you did, please leave us a rating

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Speaker 1: and review. It's your ratings, your reviews that help other

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Speaker 1: people to find out about the podcast and make their

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Speaker 1: families happier. We received just the most delightful rating and

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Speaker 1: review from somebody whose apple name is Couldn't do this

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Speaker 1: without you? Five stars. The title of this review was

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Speaker 1: soothes and realigns me. Listening to Justin and Kylie each

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Speaker 1: day both susan re aligns me being a parent of

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Speaker 1: two children under three, a business owner, and a full

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Speaker 1: time emergency service worker. I have numerous stresses in my

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Speaker 1: life each day. As I sit in my car and

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Speaker 1: listen to this podcast, it reminds me that while my

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Speaker 1: life is busy and I face challenges on a daily basis,

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Speaker 1: my main purpose in life is to provide a warm,

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Speaker 1: compassion safer, nurturing environment for my girls to grow in. So,

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Speaker 1: no matter what else has occurred in my day, Justin

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Speaker 1: and Kylie realign me daily to what is truly important,

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Speaker 1: and they help my wife and I to be better

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Speaker 1: parents and better people. Thank you Wow, I feel realigned,

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Speaker 1: I feel soothed. What a wonderful, wonderful kindness we really appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Couldn't do this without you for your five star rating

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Speaker 1: and review. Like I said, you can leave them on

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Hey, we've got four hundred and sixty one ratings.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be amazing to get to five hundred? Will

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Speaker 1: you help us get there? Can we see if we

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Speaker 1: can get forty this week? That would be phenomenal? Please

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Speaker 1: do if you haven't done it already. The Happy Famili's

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Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Rulan from Bridge Media. Craig

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Speaker 1: Bruce is our executive producer and if you'd like more

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Speaker 1: info about making your family happier, whether it's for free

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Speaker 1: or via our Happy Families memberships, check out Happy families

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Speaker 1: dot com dot a u