WEBVTT - Concept Creep: When Labels Help — And When They Don’t

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<v Speaker 1>This podcast is for general information only and should not

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<v Speaker 1>be taken as psychological advice. Listeners should consult with their

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<v Speaker 1>healthcare professionals for specific medical advice.

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<v Speaker 2>Well.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello, I'm Amanda Kella and I'm Anita mcgreenor, and welcome

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<v Speaker 3>to Double a Chattery. Anita, you said today you wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about I wasn't really paying attention obviously about creeps.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm happy to talk about crepes. I want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about creeps. Who are who are the creeps? The

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<v Speaker 2>creep is the idea in many ways about the neurological,

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<v Speaker 2>the psychological conversations that we seem to be having that

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<v Speaker 2>I used to only have with colleagues. So it used

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<v Speaker 2>to be like a lot of the terminology, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is an anxious person, this is a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>all those kinds of the terminal. I've got PTSD, I've

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<v Speaker 2>got this are things that I would have thirty years

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<v Speaker 2>ago when I first started. Most laymen would never have

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<v Speaker 2>used the words, nor would have they understood really from

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<v Speaker 2>a psychological point, what they meant. And there's this idea

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<v Speaker 2>that's called concept creep. And this is where the creep

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<v Speaker 2>comes in, Amanda, And it is no crepes. We're going

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<v Speaker 2>We're just going creeps, okay, sugar free creeps, sugar free creeps.

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<v Speaker 2>And basically it's that how there are some phrases, some ideas,

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<v Speaker 2>some concepts in our that we're using in society today

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<v Speaker 2>that has made some things almost meaningless. And give me

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<v Speaker 2>let me give you the example that if you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if somebody comes to you and they say, oh, Amanda,

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<v Speaker 2>I've just I've been traumatized. My bus was late and

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<v Speaker 2>I you know, it was late for an appointment. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>that's not as we would understand it as psychologists what

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<v Speaker 2>trauma means. It may have been upsetting, it may have

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<v Speaker 2>been frustrating, it may have been a whole bunch of things.

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<v Speaker 2>But we seem to be almost so easily kind of

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<v Speaker 2>sliding these terms that have quite specific meaning into our conversations.

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<v Speaker 3>And what's the harm? Are we diluting the language so

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<v Speaker 3>that when we really mean it, it's gone.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I think that yes. And and you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>I often have people come in and you know, clients

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<v Speaker 1>who will say something like you know, I've I've got

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<v Speaker 1>I've got adhd or I've you know, I've got trauma,

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<v Speaker 1>And I'll say, well, how do you know, were you

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<v Speaker 1>diagnosed with with you know, ADHD or whatever, And they'll say, oh, no,

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<v Speaker 1>I saw a show on it, or my mom told

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<v Speaker 1>me I did you know she saw a show on it?

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<v Speaker 1>Or she read something about it, and and I you know,

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<v Speaker 1>from a psychological point of view, it it makes me

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<v Speaker 1>wonder about when people say I am I have like

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<v Speaker 1>does it make them more or less like? Does it

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<v Speaker 1>make them more fragile in having that, you know, in

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<v Speaker 1>self diagnosing or in saying I have this?

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<v Speaker 3>Do you think that more of us have this stuff?

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<v Speaker 3>Anxiety depression ADHD? Or is the diagnostic tools better? I

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<v Speaker 3>think that.

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<v Speaker 1>It can be one or the other. It could be

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<v Speaker 1>that we're just getting better at diagnosing people and recognizing

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of hidden sectors of populations that have particular symptoms,

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<v Speaker 1>and or it could be that there is this idea

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<v Speaker 1>of concept creep and the researchers you're talking about how

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<v Speaker 1>this pathologizing of behavior has come in two ways. So

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<v Speaker 1>the first way is this vertical expansion. So trauma is

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<v Speaker 1>a good example where the criteria for inclusion for PTSD

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<v Speaker 1>for the post traumatic stress disorder, which is kind of

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<v Speaker 1>the label, the diagnostic label we put on people who've

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<v Speaker 1>experienced like a really serious significant trauma where the person

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<v Speaker 1>must have been exposed to death or threatened death or

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<v Speaker 1>serious injury or sexual violence through direct experiencing or witnessing

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<v Speaker 1>or learning about how it happened with a close friend

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<v Speaker 1>or relative, or repeated exposure to distressing details. So when

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<v Speaker 1>PTSD was first identified that it was it had very

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<v Speaker 1>very strict criteria, and then the it expanded vertically so

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<v Speaker 1>that there are vertically vertically is up. So there was

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<v Speaker 1>just more and more things. Yeah. So and it's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of like, what do we call PTSD now? And every

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<v Speaker 1>time that there's a new book called the DSM Diagnostic

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<v Speaker 1>and Statistical Manual, it's made by is published by the

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<v Speaker 1>American Psychological Association, that there is conversations about what should

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<v Speaker 1>be included. And some of the ideas about what should

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<v Speaker 1>be included now are things like childbirth, sexual harassment, infidelity,

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<v Speaker 1>or even things like having to move suddenly.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow, so they are now diagnostically included PTSD.

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<v Speaker 1>Man But there are calls to say, let's consider this

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<v Speaker 1>as part of the inclusionary criteria for saying that you've

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<v Speaker 1>got PTSD. And so there's more and more people who

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<v Speaker 1>are kind of saying I've had like I, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>my partner cheated on me, and I'm traumatized now and

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't you know, and I think that no

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<v Speaker 1>one would want to go and say, well, that's not

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<v Speaker 1>a difficult situation and that you may have you know

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<v Speaker 1>that there may be really significant consequences to that emotional

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, resource wise about you know, if somebody

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<v Speaker 1>is cheated on you and you have to think about it,

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<v Speaker 1>Am I going to divorce this person? And you know

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<v Speaker 1>what's going to what's going to happen? But it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>meet the criteria for what we currently say is PTSD.

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<v Speaker 3>What's the harm in including it?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, again, it dilutes it. You know, there

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<v Speaker 1>could be like there's also something that's called an adjustment disorder,

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<v Speaker 1>which is like that brief you know, we've all had

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<v Speaker 1>this where something terrible happens and there's a period of

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<v Speaker 1>a few months where we really struggle to get our

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<v Speaker 1>feedback under ourselves, but then we move on. The difference

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<v Speaker 1>between that kind of normal reaction to an abnormal situation

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<v Speaker 1>and PTSD is that PTSD is long term. It lasts

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<v Speaker 1>for over six months, It involves many areas of your life.

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<v Speaker 1>And it is really a term that is historically reserved

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<v Speaker 1>for kind of those abnormal situations that carry like significant

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<v Speaker 1>psychological burden with it. And it's and I also get

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<v Speaker 1>why people would say, it feels really terrible that this

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<v Speaker 1>happened to me, and it feels like it's it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to go on forever. And so it's it's it's interesting

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<v Speaker 1>that there is this push towards this vertical expansion of

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<v Speaker 1>these concepts. The other piece is that there are ideas

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<v Speaker 1>that are horizontally expanding. So bullying used to happen in

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<v Speaker 1>a schoolyard, right, That's that was you know, as I

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<v Speaker 1>was growing up, That's the only place that I would

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<v Speaker 1>hear about bullying. Now bullying happens in the in the workforce,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like you can have you know, work site bullying.

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<v Speaker 3>But it's also.

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<v Speaker 1>Happening in on social media as well, and so the

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<v Speaker 1>concept of bullying has expanded horizontally as well that it

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<v Speaker 1>it includes quantity, like qualitatively different things, because online bullying

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<v Speaker 1>looks in some ways the same, but in some ways

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<v Speaker 1>quite different. It's often it's the anonymous nature of social

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<v Speaker 1>media that is different than the school yard bullying you

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<v Speaker 1>often know who your bully is, right, and there's often

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<v Speaker 1>the other piece is that on school yards there's the bully,

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<v Speaker 1>the bullier, and then there's the bystander, right. And in social.

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<v Speaker 3>Media there's no bystanding.

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<v Speaker 1>There's no bystander who's who can look at the bully

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<v Speaker 1>and say stop that. You know, that's terrible. I mean

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<v Speaker 1>you can do that get I guess in reactions and

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<v Speaker 1>comments and that kind of stuff, but it's not exactly

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<v Speaker 1>that that immediate reaction that is available.

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<v Speaker 3>And so what are the implications of bullying expanding, because

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<v Speaker 3>it's hard to know too when your kids a little

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<v Speaker 3>as to whether you're being razzed at school, not bullied. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, someone's poking fun at you. It's going to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>That's not bullying.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is what this is what you were talking

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<v Speaker 1>about before saying, are we just getting better at including,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, diagnosing and including and doing that kind of stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Is that if we continue to expand the definitions of

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<v Speaker 1>how we're looking at things like bullying or you know,

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<v Speaker 1>some of the other concepts that seem to have really

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<v Speaker 1>expanded in the last even twenty or thirty years, ADHD anxiety,

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<v Speaker 1>those kinds of things. Are we getting better at dinognosing

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<v Speaker 1>or are we just is there this concept creed?

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<v Speaker 3>Are the implications in all of this for the person

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<v Speaker 3>who is told you do have ADHD or you have

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<v Speaker 3>been bullied, you do have post traumatic stress? Does that

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<v Speaker 3>make you feel better or worse to be recognized as such?

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<v Speaker 1>Well? So, the potential advantage when I think about this,

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<v Speaker 1>is that it means that more, you know, if you

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<v Speaker 1>can get diagnosed with you know something that then often

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<v Speaker 1>it it triggers a you know, resources that can be used,

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<v Speaker 1>which is awesome. It means that destigmatization can actually happen that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, if you kind of say, you know, I've

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<v Speaker 1>i've I've lived all my life, uh, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>I was just called weird and now I've I've you know,

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<v Speaker 1>been diagnosed with you know, whether it's you know, anxiety

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<v Speaker 1>or autism spectrum disorder or something, and it destigmatizes, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>if you can have that label and you can say

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<v Speaker 1>I love that I am this person now and then

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<v Speaker 1>I don't feel that the label identifies me. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that that can be fantastic. It also means that that

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<v Speaker 1>we can be potentially more aware and sensitive to the

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<v Speaker 1>suffering of that if we have more awareness about some

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<v Speaker 1>of those different diagnoses you know, trauma related and otherwhen

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<v Speaker 1>you know, neurodevelopmental and all that, that we can actually

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<v Speaker 1>be more sensitive. On the other hand, though, what is

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<v Speaker 1>the other hand? This is the other hand, if we

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<v Speaker 1>are over pathologizing, if we are if this concept creep

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<v Speaker 1>is actually happening, it can encourage victimhood. You know, I

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<v Speaker 1>can't do anything because I've had a trauma. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>do anything like I can't you.

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<v Speaker 3>Know, I'm not good at this part of my job

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<v Speaker 3>because I've got ADHD.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it also creates a culture of fragility and

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<v Speaker 1>excuse making, and you know, potentially creates a situation where

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<v Speaker 1>people aren't or won't take responsibility for their predicament for

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<v Speaker 1>their situation. And while it can be empowering to have

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<v Speaker 1>the diagnosis, it can also be seen as a reason

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<v Speaker 1>for pessimism and less autonomy around self change how to

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<v Speaker 1>useful as a psychologist. I you know, I really struggle

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<v Speaker 1>in you know, in looking at you know, the mental

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<v Speaker 1>health diagnosis has just burgeoned since I've become a psychologist.

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<v Speaker 1>And as I say, I mean, there's this part of

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<v Speaker 1>me that says, maybe education is working. Maybe that's fantastic,

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<v Speaker 1>and it is great to go and see that ability

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<v Speaker 1>to go in front confront stigma and all those kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of things, and I really I just struggled with it.

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<v Speaker 1>And I watch sometimes the the movement by well meaning

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<v Speaker 1>people into situations where situations just get more and more ambiguous,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that the example that I would use

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<v Speaker 1>is where you know, you know, HR departments of many

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<v Speaker 1>companies are writing in you know, kind of ambiguous language,

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<v Speaker 1>like you know that somehow you could consider it bullying

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<v Speaker 1>or harassment if it you know, you were felt, if

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<v Speaker 1>you felt that you were limited in your ability to

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<v Speaker 1>express an opinion, or or that somehow that your boss

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<v Speaker 1>made unreasonable work demands. And it's and you know, it's

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<v Speaker 1>maybe if there's evidence to say, yes, you know, my

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<v Speaker 1>boss asked me to work you know, through seventeen weekends.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, that's.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be that would be unreasonable amount it. But

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<v Speaker 1>but at what point do we you know there's there's

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<v Speaker 1>there's sometimes you need quantification of things. And as much

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<v Speaker 1>as I really struggle with our diagnostic and statistical manual

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<v Speaker 1>that we use for diagnosis, I really struggle in general

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<v Speaker 1>with the whole idea of diagnosis. I mean, I my

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<v Speaker 1>sense is that I tend to go and shy away

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<v Speaker 1>from making diagnosis although I can as a psychologist, I

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<v Speaker 1>tend to go and and step away from it when

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<v Speaker 1>I can, because I just find that that labeling can

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<v Speaker 1>really have an impact.

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<v Speaker 3>Was it you telling me the story about in Japan

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<v Speaker 3>they didn't have a word for depression. Yeah, until they

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<v Speaker 3>wanted to market a drug at it. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely, the pharmaceutical companies went into Japan and trained psychiatrists

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<v Speaker 1>to diagnose and label people with depression so that they

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<v Speaker 1>could give them antidepressants. Now there was in Japan a

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<v Speaker 1>word for like what we would have considered like like

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<v Speaker 1>ultra depression, but there wasn't kind of that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>what we see as maybe melancholia or or like mild

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<v Speaker 1>depression or you know that, you know, the adjustment disorder

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<v Speaker 1>that I mentioned, And so it wouldn't have been there

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<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have been the market in Japan for.

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<v Speaker 3>They had to tell people what they had so they

0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.160
<v Speaker 3>could create a market. Yeah.

0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's it's like the pharmaceutical companies, you know,

0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:04.440
<v Speaker 1>have a lot to answer for. But you know, they

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.760
<v Speaker 1>also kind of said you know, the whole idea, they've

0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:11.120
<v Speaker 1>got social anxiety, which historically was shyness, and just kind

0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:11.920
<v Speaker 1>of a you.

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.280
<v Speaker 3>Know, is that a concept creep shyness has become social anxiety.

0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that would be a good example of concept creep.

0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:20.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And there's a drug for it now, Amanda, Is

0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:21.480
<v Speaker 1>there a drug.

0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:23.480
<v Speaker 3>For social anxiety? Yeah, it's it called alcohol.

0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 1>We have we have done a lot of research in that.

0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:36.760
<v Speaker 3>Maybe fun as anxious. On my own, I thought that

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:39.400
<v Speaker 3>was very interesting. Thank you, Anita for being the brains

0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:39.880
<v Speaker 3>in the room.

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 1>Mm, you're welcome.

0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 3>Should we get to our glimmers.

0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 1>Let's I've got I've got one that I've we recently,

0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:04.520
<v Speaker 1>we a bunch of women came together over a period

0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.960
<v Speaker 1>about three days, Amanda, and you were part of this,

0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.680
<v Speaker 1>and you know, I was thinking about this amazing recipe

0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:19.440
<v Speaker 1>of really cool chicks who over a period of days,

0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>because it's part of the recipe is time. Is that

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:28.040
<v Speaker 1>we were able to have these like conversations where we

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.119
<v Speaker 1>are able to go and dive really deep into some

0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:35.240
<v Speaker 1>of the stuff that was going on some of us,

0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.080
<v Speaker 1>for some of us individually, but for you know, a

0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.760
<v Speaker 1>lot of the conversations we were having were things that

0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.560
<v Speaker 1>all of us were experiencing, and I was just I

0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 1>was so grateful for the time that we were able

0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:55.560
<v Speaker 1>to spend just feeling supported, validated, loved.

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.240
<v Speaker 3>And being allowed to be vulnerable. I felt many times

0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.800
<v Speaker 3>an emotional storm come through and I just let it,

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.600
<v Speaker 3>and then someone else could have one and we'd talk

0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.800
<v Speaker 3>about what was coming up for them. I've discovered I'm

0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 3>a person that doesn't very often let my guard down,

0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:18.119
<v Speaker 3>and I felt that too on that weekend of safe

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.040
<v Speaker 3>space to do all of that and to let the

0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:24.160
<v Speaker 3>storm roll through. When you come out the other side,

0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 3>and then five minutes later you're laughing about something. To

0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.760
<v Speaker 3>the light, the shade, all the nuances, as you say,

0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.040
<v Speaker 3>of everything all of us were going through, some of

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:37.239
<v Speaker 3>it universal, some of it highly specific friends who've known

0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:41.160
<v Speaker 3>each other a long time. It was filling up the cup,

0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:41.560
<v Speaker 3>wasn't it.

0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:44.960
<v Speaker 1>It really was best kind of self care ever with

0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 1>chips included. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, and a couple of drinks

0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:52.679
<v Speaker 1>and one or two drinks, perfect perfect combination. Then what's yours?

0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.160
<v Speaker 3>I've just seen this. I saw this story. It's about

0:18:56.160 --> 0:19:00.320
<v Speaker 3>an American father who he said he's been a single

0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.120
<v Speaker 3>dad since his daughter was one shes popa with mouse

0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:04.680
<v Speaker 3>seven or so. And I don't know what the single

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.919
<v Speaker 3>dad means, he shares custody or not, but he has

0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.920
<v Speaker 3>set up classes to help other men in similar circumstances

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:17.080
<v Speaker 3>learn how to do their daughter's hair. This is so sweet.

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.719
<v Speaker 3>It was so sweet. And he said he's helped three

0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:23.479
<v Speaker 3>hundred dads so far. And he said, just to keep

0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.040
<v Speaker 3>the connection there, whether it's divorce or whatever, what circumstances

0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.880
<v Speaker 3>you find yourself in. And he said, and beautiful footage

0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.960
<v Speaker 3>of these men combing their daughter's hair, braiding it. He said,

0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:39.200
<v Speaker 3>it's all about the effort. Even a messy bun is

0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.080
<v Speaker 3>time spent together. He said, it's not about the braid,

0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:45.960
<v Speaker 3>it's about the bond. Just beautiful. And he said it's

0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.840
<v Speaker 3>also giving these young girls a role model, because sometimes

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.640
<v Speaker 3>in these split families or whatever the situation is, these

0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.879
<v Speaker 3>girls don't get that. He said, these gender roles are revolving,

0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:03.879
<v Speaker 3>are revolving. The gender ross, gender roles are evolving. And

0:20:04.000 --> 0:20:06.680
<v Speaker 3>he said, to be a father, it's no longer just

0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:10.200
<v Speaker 3>about bringing home the bacon. It's this connection that you

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:13.280
<v Speaker 3>want with your kids. And what a wonderful way to

0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:15.639
<v Speaker 3>do it. So you're getting your daughter ready for school

0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.880
<v Speaker 3>or whatever it is. She's happy because her hair looks great,

0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:21.760
<v Speaker 3>her dad's done her hair. And there are these classes

0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.199
<v Speaker 3>where like minded men are doing this with their daughters.

0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.920
<v Speaker 1>It would be so like just giving permission for men

0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:33.520
<v Speaker 1>to do that. And can you imagine the memories that

0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.240
<v Speaker 1>are developing for these young girls when they grow up

0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.200
<v Speaker 1>and they say, Dad used to the used to do

0:20:39.320 --> 0:20:40.880
<v Speaker 1>the best French breed in my hair.

0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.720
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, and the knock on effect of the confidence you

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:46.400
<v Speaker 3>get that you're going to school in a week where

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.560
<v Speaker 3>dad's looking after and you still look great. But the

0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.480
<v Speaker 3>time you've spent with your dad doing it, and for

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:56.439
<v Speaker 3>the dad to feel absolutely contributing in a different kind

0:20:56.480 --> 0:20:59.000
<v Speaker 3>of way to his daughter's life. It's a Greek It's

0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:03.600
<v Speaker 3>a great one. Yeah. All right, well, love you, Love

0:21:03.680 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 3>you too. Anything we've spoken about, Please feel free to

0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.160
<v Speaker 3>comment on our socials. We love hearing what you think

0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:11.080
<v Speaker 3>and we'll see you next time.

0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:11.480
<v Speaker 1>See you,