1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: I used to think that jealousy was something you outgrew, 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 1: that once you hit a certain level of success or 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: self awareness, you'd be immune to it. But when Holly Wainwright, 4 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: best selling author and one of the voices behind Mama 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: Mia out Loud, told me about the moment she found 6 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: herself jealous of a close friend's success, I really felt it. 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: She told me that she couldn't sleep, she couldn't stop 8 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: thinking about it. And what shocked Holly most wasn't the 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: jealousy itself. It was realizing that it pointed straight to 10 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: something she'd buried, what she really wanted. In today's episode, 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,319 Speaker 1: Holly and I unpacked what happens when jealousy creeps in 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: at work, and how facing it honestly can reveal your 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: truest ambitions, often the ones you're almost afraid to admit. 14 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to How I Work, a show about habits, rituals, 15 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: and strategies for optimizing your day. I'm your host, Doctor 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: Amantha Imber. Holly, I reached out to you for this 17 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: chat because I heard you talking about jealousy, and I 18 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: guess an experience of jealousy that you had back in 19 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:27,199 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I want to say, and I feel 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: like I don't hear women talk about that experience of 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: jealousy much at all in the media, and I want 22 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: to start with hearing about what happened back then that 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: caused you, who is not a very jealous person to 24 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: experience that. 25 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really interesting moment for me, because 26 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 2: you know, there are those even though when you reach 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: sort of the grown up page that I am, you 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: think you know yourself pretty well, right, And I think 29 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 2: one of the revelations is that, you know, we're constantly 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: finding out that these stories we've told ourselves about ourselves 31 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: are not true. And one of the stories that I 32 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: had definitely always told myself is that I was not 33 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: a jealous person in all kinds of areas of my life. Like, 34 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 2: I've never been a particularly jealous person in romantic relationships. 35 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 2: I mean, I've had my moments when I've needed to 36 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 2: have them, perhaps, but it's not a defining factor for me. 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: I've never been one of those people who kind of 38 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: covet what everybody else has. I've never considered it to 39 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 2: be a driver. And then what happened was in the 40 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: experience that I spoke about and wrote about recently is 41 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 2: that my co host on Mamma Mia out Loud, Jesse Stevens, 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 2: who is a very dear friend of mine. We've been 43 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: working together very closely for god eight years maybe nine, 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 2: like a long time, and she's much younger than me. 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: Anyone who listens to mom were outlaud would know this. 46 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: Exceptionally talented, incredibly clever, very hard working like I just 47 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: but also the loveliest. I adore her. She wrote her 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: first book now, I at that time had written I 49 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 2: think three books, I think. And one thing that happens 50 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: whenever an Australian author in particular writes their first book 51 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: is everybody tells them to temper their expectations. And nearly 52 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: always that's the correct thing to tell people. They're like, 53 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 2: don't think just because you've got a book deal and 54 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 2: just because your book's coming out, but suddenly you're going 55 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 2: to have millions of dollars and all blah blah blah, 56 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: like you know we do. It's often not that life changing, 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: you know. I mean, it is for you because you've 58 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: achieved something you've always wanted to achieve. But so I 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 2: remember myself, I'm meya are other co host obviously co 60 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 2: founder of MoMA Mia were very much like Jesse. This 61 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: book is amazing, but you know, just be cool, like 62 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 2: it's not much is going to happen anywhere. Jesse's brilliant 63 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 2: first books called Heartsick. It's a non fiction exploration of 64 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 2: heartbreak through real people's stories. It's so good. Before it 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: came out, it became the subject of an international bidding 66 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 2: war in the US. And obviously I tell this story 67 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: with Jesse's blessing, like, you know, don't think otherwise, you know, 68 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: So she got a significant financial and also obviously status 69 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: from that. It was very successful. It was a best seller. 70 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: I think it was optioned for screens. So basically all 71 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: the things that there was me and me are being 72 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: like these wise experienced older heads telling her to keep 73 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: her call. Everything went the other way. There were stories 74 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 2: about Jesse Stephens the next big thing in literature. Now. 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 2: The story I have always told myself is that I 76 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 2: would be delighted for my friend. And I was delighted 77 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: for my friend, but also I found this experience incredibly destabilizing. 78 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: I became someone I didn't recognize. I became so jealous 79 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 2: of Jesse's success. It affected my sleep. It affected my mood. 80 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: It was like intrusive thoughts. It was like I couldn't 81 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 2: stop thinking about how this had happened to Jesse and 82 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: it hadn't happened to me, and it really really unsettled me. 83 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: I kind of examined it over time. Obviously, I had 84 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 2: to realize that I had to act on do something 85 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 2: about this, and I did talk to Jesse about it 86 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: quite early on. I spoke to her well, not that 87 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 2: it was her problem to do anything with, but it 88 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: just felt like something you should discuss. 89 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: How did you bring that up, though, Holly, Like that 90 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: feels like such a hard thing to bring up with 91 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: a close friend. 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: You know, I can't even remember exactly how I did it, 93 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: but I remember because you know, what I didn't want 94 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 2: is I didn't want to be snyde about it. Like 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be because I think that there's 96 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: a female trope about this, right. And one of the 97 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: other things is I've always, in terms of the stories 98 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: I've told myself, I've always really rejected the idea that 99 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 2: women can't be happy for each other successes, that they 100 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: have to tear each other down. It's such a cliche, 101 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: but you know that any group of women are going 102 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 2: to be intensely competitive. Again, I thought I was against 103 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,799 Speaker 2: all of those, like, very much against all of those ideas. 104 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: I've worked with mostly women for most of my career, 105 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: and that has not been my experience broadly, that women 106 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 2: can't work together, can't cooperate, can't be happy for each 107 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: other's successes. But there was something about this, And what 108 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 2: I realized was it was like my deepest desire, I 109 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: guess is that there are lots of things I do 110 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 2: in my career that I love and I'm passionate about, 111 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,799 Speaker 2: and I work hard, but writing a book is such 112 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: an enormous endeavor and it's so vulnerable, and you know this, 113 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: it's such a vulnerable thing to do, and you put 114 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: so much of yourself into it, respect and success as 115 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 2: an author. Particularly at that time, I was doing okay, 116 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: like it wasn't like I wasn't. But the success that 117 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: she was achieving, I realized, Oh, that's really what I want. 118 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: You know, that must be really deep down what I want, 119 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: because it's driving me crazy. It was literally driving me crazy. 120 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: So I think the way I said it to Jesse, 121 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly how the conversation went, but what 122 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be was all happy on the outside, like, oh, 123 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 2: I'm so happy for your success on that, but with 124 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: that sort of snide must be nice, you know, Like 125 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 2: I didn't want to be like that, So I think 126 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 2: I told her. I think at some point I told 127 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: her that it was driving me crazy, and I think 128 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 2: we did, and this is something we often do. I 129 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: think we talked about it on the show, workshopped it 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 2: a little bit on the show, and then I just 131 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 2: let it be out there. Sometimes. I think it's interesting 132 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 2: because I'm sure people who work with us, or work 133 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: around us, or listen to us a lot at that 134 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 2: time probably loved to gossip about that and be like, oh, 135 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 2: Holly has a problem with Jesse or whatever, and it's 136 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 2: just not true. You know, I adore her. But what 137 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: it did for me is it really as I worked 138 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: through it and I spoke to some really like trusted 139 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: I didn't trusted people about it, and workshopped it a bit, 140 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: I realized that what it did for me is it 141 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 2: clarified that I was more ambitious than I thought I was, 142 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 2: that I was more competitive than I thought I was, 143 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: and it sort of signposted to me. I mean, I 144 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: don't know if it's quite the right word, but like 145 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: what my priorities were in a way, like somebody said, 146 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 2: I think I interviewed somebody who told me that you 147 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: can't be jealous. You're only jealous of things you really 148 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 2: really want. So there can be a guy down the 149 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: road who's got a beautiful, fancy car, and I'm not 150 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: in the least bit jealous because I don't care about cars. 151 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: I don't want a fancy car. It's not you know, 152 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm not jealous of people who have mansions. I'm not 153 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: jealous of people who have Gucci handbags because it's not 154 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 2: my thing, but it very clearly signposted to me or 155 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 2: that level of respect and success as an author is 156 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: obviously what I very much want, and I think it 157 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: reshuffled my priorities and allowed me to be more bold 158 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 2: about what I wanted. 159 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 1: Have you experienced anything like that since that intense jealousy 160 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: you know that you had those few years ago. 161 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: No, I can honestly say I haven't. I think I 162 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: interrogate myself more about why I feel a certain way 163 00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 2: about certain things. I think what's interesting and I'd love 164 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 2: to know what you think about this. I obviously am. 165 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: My work is very important to be different facets of 166 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 2: what I do. I like to take pride in it. 167 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: Obviously a large part of my identity comes from it. 168 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: But the different ways that you value, you judge success 169 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: is something I think you're always recalibrating right in your mind. 170 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:22,840 Speaker 2: When I wrote my first book, obviously just having a 171 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 2: book with my name on it was success. And then it's, well, 172 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: will it sell? Will I get to write another book? 173 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: You know? And then it's we're making this podcast, but 174 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 2: will anyone listen to it? Will it be? I think 175 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: that we're all always questioning what our markers of success are. 176 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 2: And obviously the world we live in social media and 177 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: constant comparison culture and announcement culture influences this. But I 178 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: always when I talk to or interview really successful people, 179 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 2: I always want to know what their relationship with success 180 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: is about, that is like, and their relationship with competition 181 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: is like, because I think there's a trope that all 182 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: successful people are very competitive and that you have to be. 183 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 2: I don't know if I think that's true. Do you 184 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 2: think that's true, Amantha. 185 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: I'm a very competitive person and I use that to 186 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: drive me. I find it quite motivating, whether that be 187 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: in my business inventium, when we're pitching on a piece 188 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: of work, which is quite unusual. Generally we don't pitch 189 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: for work, but when we do, I put even more 190 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: effort in to what I'm doing, into the proposal, into 191 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:34,199 Speaker 1: the relationship building than I would if there wasn't that competition. 192 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,479 Speaker 1: It's interesting. I think I'm pretty competitive in the creative 193 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: projects that I have going on in my life, whether 194 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: that be book writing or podcasting. And we briefly talked 195 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: about that before we hit record, because I'm curious on 196 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: your perspective around this. You said you interviewed Sally Hapworth 197 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: during the week, and she's obviously just had a book 198 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,599 Speaker 1: out this week. I think it's like her tenth or 199 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: eleventh book tenth, and she's an incredibly successful writer globally, 200 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: and like I definitely when when I've got a new 201 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 1: book about to launch. So I'm working on my fifth 202 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: one at the moment. Like I remember, you know, with 203 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: the past two, which have both been with Penguin, I've 204 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: been really competitive about pre orders. I want regular updates 205 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: on the numbers. I want to know if the book 206 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: has made the charts in the opening week or two, 207 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: like all of those things. I find that quite motivating. 208 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of terrible because I think I define some 209 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: of the success around the project around the numbers, when 210 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's many people that would say, well, 211 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: you need to look internally to find success. What do 212 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: you think about this? 213 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 2: I find that really interesting too, because what most of 214 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: us are like that to a point, right. I mean, 215 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 2: I've worked in digital media for a decade and when 216 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 2: I first was working in digital media and we were 217 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: writing stories, and then I was running a team that 218 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: was publishing stories. We can see in real time in 219 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 2: that environment, how many people are reading, how long they're 220 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 2: spending on there, and the whole point is more eyeballs, 221 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 2: more time, more eyeballs, more time. There's literally a leaderboard 222 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: in the office. I don't know if there is now 223 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: at MoMA MIA. We've have to have had different relationships 224 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: with this at different times because it depends what the 225 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: metric that you're driving for. But there's literally a leaderboard 226 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 2: in the office where everyone can see how well their 227 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 2: story has done. So it breeds obviously a very I 228 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 2: think parts of it are healthier. Parts of it are 229 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 2: not relationship with understanding what people want and what they 230 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 2: read and what that volume means. And then when it 231 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: comes to a project that's so different, like writing a book, 232 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: I think that there are authors, and I'm sure this 233 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: translates to different areas of work who are obsessed with 234 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 2: the numbers and the charts and the first week and 235 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: the second week and the pre orders and the you know, 236 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 2: and then there are those who can just let it go. 237 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: And when I was talking to sell this week, she 238 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: was saying that she has always kind of let it go. 239 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: But when we interrogated that a little more, I think 240 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: that also comes with a certain level of success and 241 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: confidence that it's going to be okay. 242 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: You know. 243 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 2: I remember I interviewed Leanne Murriati for mid in the 244 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: second season. I think, and you couldn't have a more 245 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: commercially successful author her, And you know, Leanne Moriarty does 246 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: not need to write another word, and she's fine, you 247 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: know what I mean. She's had so many I couldn't 248 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 2: tell you how many New York Times Number one best sellers. 249 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 2: She obviously has had almost everything she writes made into 250 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 2: a movie. She's she's at the pinnacle of that kind 251 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: of writing. And she said she still very much cares 252 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: whether or not her new book next book is doing 253 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: as well as the last one. It's not that she's 254 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: necessarily hungry for I need it to do because I 255 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 2: think at the beginning of your career, you need everything 256 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 2: you do to do well in order to keep doing it. 257 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? That's the metric really 258 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 2: is like I need to sell enough books or whatever 259 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 2: that I will get another book deal, or that I 260 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 2: will be allowed to do this again, or I need 261 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:08,680 Speaker 2: to win that client so I can win another client 262 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: and another client. So the success is the point, right 263 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: That isn't the case. If you get to a level 264 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: of serious success, however, then I think you're almost competing 265 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: with yourself because you want to be I think that 266 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: was very much what Leam sort of said, is that 267 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: she wants to feel that she's getting better all the time, 268 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, which is not about being in competition with 269 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: another author. It's about being in competition with her own skills. 270 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 2: And I think that's kind of what Sally was saying 271 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: to me in this conversation we had. She said that 272 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: she's less obsessed with individual numbers. As she puts it, 273 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: you know, say, this is a week of the year 274 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: that when we're talking that a lot of big books 275 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: have come out, some people will go to the shops 276 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 2: and buy that one today, but then there might buy 277 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 2: the other one three weeks time, four weeks time. So 278 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: does it matter who wins the week? 279 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: Like? 280 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 2: That's kind of like that view, and I think depending 281 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: on your relationship with competition, yes it really matters who 282 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: wins the week. But does that make the work better? 283 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 2: Does that make you a better writer, author, creator? Whatever? 284 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 2: I think what that whole episode of brief insanity did 285 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: for me when I became obsessively professionally jealous, was realized 286 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 2: that actually, I don't think competition does motivate me. I 287 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 2: mean it does to a of course, I'm competitive to 288 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: a point because I just don't think you can be 289 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: driven without having that engine of something. And I'm definitely driven. 290 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: But actually personal and professional jealousy and competitiveness to a 291 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 2: point paralyzes me. Is if I'm always looking at that 292 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 2: and going that person's doing better than I am, or 293 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: that book selling more than mine or whatever, it kind 294 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: of makes me smaller. It's hard for me to explain it, 295 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: but it kind of makes me freeze. I can't really 296 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: explain it, but it's almost like it's I think for 297 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: some people it's definitely a motivation, and for others, I 298 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 2: think it almost paralyzes you because you sort of feel 299 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: like I'm not gonna win. 300 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: Jealousy can feel ugly, But for Holly it was clarifying. 301 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: Coming up. We shift gears into how ambition plays out 302 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: once you've named what you want. We talk competition, comparison, 303 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: and the strange paralysis that comes from watching others win. 304 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: If you're looking for more tips to improve the way 305 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: you work can live. I write a short weekly newsletter 306 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: that contains tactics I've discovered that have helped me personally. 307 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: You can sign up for that at Amantha dot com. 308 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: That's Amantha dot com. I'm curious when so your fifth book? 309 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: He would never which I loved. I feel like I 310 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: will often write to you when I finish your Books'll 311 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: be like, when's the next one out? Because I need 312 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: my holy fix? Like I just I love your book 313 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: so much. He wouldn't ever, I think is your best 314 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: one yet. I've had several people say that. 315 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: It's also been my most successful. I don't want anyone 316 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 2: to listen to this and be like, oh, holy she's not. 317 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 2: That book has done very well and I'm very proud 318 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 2: of it. It was very hard to write. 319 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: I heard you say that as well. Actually I think 320 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 1: on it might have been a mum of me out 321 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 1: loud episode. And I actually I loved when you said that, 322 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: because I'm about to submit book number five to my 323 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: publishers in three weeks time, and I feel like it 324 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: has been far and away the hardest book I've written. 325 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: I've just I've been in struggle Town in a way 326 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: that I just haven't with the other four books. The 327 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: other four books have been relatively straightforward. There's been some 328 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: challenges with the structure, but then I know I've sort 329 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: of nailed that within a couple of months have been 330 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 1: into the writing process. But this one has just, oh, 331 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: it's been really really hard. 332 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 2: People always say it gets well. Actually I don't know 333 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: the authors say this, but other people, well, so it 334 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 2: gets easier. I have not found like writing books has 335 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: not gotten easier for me. It's it's very difficult every time. 336 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,239 Speaker 2: It's just it's a very difficult thing to do. It 337 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 2: really is. 338 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 1: So I want to know, then, with what you were 339 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: saying when he would never came out, which I want 340 00:18:24,040 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: to say, was that like four or five months ago? 341 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: It was in at the end of April. Yeah, it was, Yeah, 342 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: it was Mother's Day release. 343 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: Yet, what then does your competitive drive all lack thereof 344 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 1: look like when it's publication day, it's launch week. You know, 345 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: the publishers looking at numbers, you're positive, like, what are 346 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: you doing in that week? 347 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 2: You know with regards to that, Oh no, I am 348 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 2: looking at numbers. Don't get me wrong. One of the 349 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: things that, as I was saying before about my background 350 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 2: in digital media, I care very much about lots of 351 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,919 Speaker 2: people reading my work. You know, it's interesting because sometimes 352 00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: I'll be at a writer's festival. 353 00:18:59,400 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: You know. 354 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: That's so interesting about the community of book writers is 355 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: it's so we compare books as if they're all the 356 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: same meal, you know what I mean, when really somebody 357 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 2: who's writing poetry and someone who's writing recipes, and someone 358 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 2: who's writing a heartbreaking memoir and someone who's writing a 359 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,959 Speaker 2: beach read are all sort of thrown together as if 360 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 2: you're all doing the same thing, or someone who's writing 361 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: nonfiction someone who's writing and that's clearly not the case. 362 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: Publishing is a very diverse industry. There are lots of loves, 363 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: So I don't think we should be comparing around in 364 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 2: July and recipe to eats like I just don't think 365 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: that's a thing. Like neither of them are better or worse. 366 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: But it's not a thing. But sometimes when I'm a 367 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 2: writer's festival and I have a little bit of imposter 368 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: syndrome because I still feel sometimes that I'm not a 369 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 2: like a serious author because I write what they call 370 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 2: commercial fiction. The thing about commercial fiction is it's called 371 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: that because lots of people buy it and lots of 372 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: people want to read it. And I am not ashamed 373 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:00,680 Speaker 2: of that, you know what I I mean, I don't. 374 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: To me, that doesn't mean it isn't good. In fact, 375 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: I think it's the opposite. I always say, and I'm 376 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 2: happy to say, and I don't care if it sounds 377 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: a little bit brash or whatever. It matters a great 378 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 2: deal to me that my books sell well and the 379 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 2: lots of people read them. There is no greater compliment 380 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: to me than when people say to me, I love 381 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: this book. I stayed up reading this book. I told 382 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: my friends about this book, Like that's what I want 383 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: to hear. I want. I think women's lives are difficult. 384 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 2: I want them to have as much entertainment and also, 385 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 2: you know, see themselves in these stories. That's what I 386 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 2: do and why I do it. So I very much 387 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 2: want the book to be successful and I will work 388 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 2: my butt off to sell you know, the books as 389 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 2: much as I can, and publishers like that. But I 390 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 2: think the thing about whether or not I'm deeply competitive 391 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 2: is it's not for me about is it going to 392 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: beat that one? Is it going to be this? You 393 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 2: know what I mean? It's more is it going to 394 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 2: do well? Is it going to grow? I want to 395 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 2: get better. I want to be able to write books forever. 396 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: So I think maybe for me, I am more comfortable 397 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: with the term ambitious, Like I'm ambitious for my writing, 398 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: I'm ambitious for my career. I'm ambitious for my books 399 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: doing well. Competitive to me means that you are immediately 400 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 2: comparing and trying to beat somebody else. And what I've 401 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 2: found and that episode that I was talking about, is 402 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 2: that that makes me a bit sick. Do you know 403 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 2: what I mean? It actually makes me a little bit. 404 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 2: I don't mean it makes me sick as in I'm 405 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 2: disgusted by it. I mean it literally makes me quite 406 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: unwell to focus too much on that. What I learned 407 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: through that is it was a very interesting exercise in going, Oh, 408 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 2: you are really ambitious, you want all these things. But 409 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: if I focus all the time on what other people 410 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 2: are doing and whether or not i'm better or worse 411 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: than them, and they're doing better or worse than me, 412 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: that's what paralyzes me. That's what makes me quite unhappy 413 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 2: and anxious. And I'm sure this is true for you too. 414 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: Is that whatever field you're writing in, if you're writing 415 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: with other people's voices and opinions in your head all 416 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 2: the time, that's paralyzing too, Right. If you're always like, 417 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: what's so and so going to think about this, or 418 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: those people on the internet are going to say XYZ 419 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 2: about this, that stops you from creating. So I think 420 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 2: what I've learned and maybe where I've landed is I'm 421 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 2: very ambitious for my career and my writing and whatever 422 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 2: I'm doing, I want to do it really well. But 423 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: it's not about winning. I think that maybe that's the difference. 424 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? It does? 425 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: I love the awareness that you've got to and I'm 426 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: curious as to how then that has led to action, 427 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: because if you haven't experienced that intense jealousy in the 428 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: last four years, what do you think you've done differently, 429 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: aside from recognizing just how horrible that that feeling was 430 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 1: for you. 431 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,200 Speaker 2: I think I check myself on it a lot, because 432 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: I think it's the most natural thing in the world 433 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: when you see people you know. As I said about 434 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: the idea that sometimes your jealousy is a really helpful 435 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: signpost to what your really secret desires are, and that 436 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 2: yours might be quite different from societies or what they're 437 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,679 Speaker 2: supposed to be. But when I feel it coming, I 438 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 2: can check myself on it. And when I say when 439 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: I feel it coming, I don't mean that it's constant, 440 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: but the little things that you know. Now. I'm very 441 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 2: fortunate in that I'm now at a place in my 442 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 2: career where I do get asked quite a lot to 443 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 2: can you help promote this book or this author, or 444 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 2: will you write a blurb about this or will you 445 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 2: interview this person? And if I want to, my answer 446 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 2: is absolutely yes, because I think if I was frozen 447 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 2: in my place of envy and fear, I'm like, well, 448 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, do I want to help them? Be successful. 449 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? I have to be 450 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: like absolutely, I want to be generous. I want to 451 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 2: push myself to recognize or that slightly icky feeling I 452 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 2: have today about that person or you know the news 453 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: that so and so just got blah blah, you know 454 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: a screen deal or a I don't know, whatever. I 455 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 2: can recognize it and go, Okay, but you're writing a 456 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 2: book right now. How does any of that help make 457 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 2: this book better? You know? And so I think the 458 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: awareness of it has been helpful, and it's an ongoing process. 459 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: I think to call yourself out sometimes about the uncomfortable stuff. 460 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 2: I really want to be the person who's focused on 461 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 2: the work. I can quite easily, especially if I'm myself 462 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 2: feeling burnt out, feeling tired, feeling what's all this for? 463 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: Or whatever it might be, then absolutely I can be 464 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 2: much more prone to that kind of negative thinking and bitterness. 465 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 2: I think, no question. And I think that's why I 466 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 2: think sometimes it feels when you read or look for 467 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: advice from people who are really successful, you're often there's 468 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 2: a bit of you that's like, well, of course you'd 469 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,919 Speaker 2: say that, because you you know you've achieved all the things, 470 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 2: but what I've learned from, as I say, meeting a 471 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: lot of people who've achieved all the things that you 472 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 2: might dream of, is that they don't feel like that. 473 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: People are always pushing themselves. I think driven people always 474 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 2: pushing themselves so they don't necessarily feel like they've ticked 475 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 2: every box. But yeah, no question. If I'm struggling, then 476 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: I definitely am less generous in every aspect. And I 477 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: have to check myself on that too, And so it's 478 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 2: such a cliche, but I have to check in with 479 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 2: being grateful, you know, I really do, because you know, 480 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: as you know, because we speak sporadically over years now, 481 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 2: I've made a lot of changes in my life. In 482 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: the last few years. I've moved out of the city. 483 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 2: I've got this sort of more quiet life and a 484 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: bit more spect well in theory I do, I don't really, 485 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: but I have more space and more I've done a 486 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: lot of work in understanding what I need to try 487 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: and keep myself calm and grounded in a world that's 488 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: very as we all know, moving incredibly fast and very 489 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 2: anxiety inducing. And sometimes it is a cliche, but when 490 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:08,239 Speaker 2: I stop and go look look at this, you know 491 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: these were all things I dreamt about. And look at 492 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 2: my family and my beautiful kids who are growing up, 493 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 2: and you know, look at the place where we live, 494 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: and look at the fact I'm growing tomatoes in my garden, 495 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 2: and look at the fact I'm sitting talking to you 496 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 2: in my little shed that is my room of one 497 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: zone that I had literally wanted forever. You know, it's 498 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 2: a cliche, but it's true, is that you have to 499 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: pull yourself back otherwise you can. I think ambitious creative 500 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 2: people we're insufferable often, like we just it's just the more, 501 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: more and more, And it's not necessarily more money, more status, 502 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: but it's just like it's the constant anxiety of like 503 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: why am I not doing as well? As like it's 504 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: just shut up. You know, I've really got to check 505 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: in with that shut up voice. 506 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: Nollie and I were having such a great time chatting 507 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 1: that once we finished this episode, we actually ended up 508 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 1: continuing the conversation and we talked a lot about energy 509 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: burnout and how Holly is struggling with portioning out her 510 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: energy correctly to the right projects, and so we worked 511 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: up some strategies that she could use. So what I've 512 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: done is packaged up that episode as a little bonus 513 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: episode for today that you can listen to right now 514 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: by going to your podcast feed and looking for the 515 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: second How I Work episode that dropped today. If you 516 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: like today's Joe, make sure you hit follow on your 517 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: podcast app to be alerted when new episodes drop. How 518 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: I Work was recorded on the traditional land of the 519 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: Warrangery People, part of the Cooler Nation.